Single-dose pre-filled syringes cost manufacturers just 13.7 cents more per dose!

[mhatrw]

Un-fucking-believable!

13.7 cents more per dose for pre-filled single-dose syringes that don't need any ethyl-mercury preservatives and eliminate multi-use vial cross contamination!

15.2 cents more per dose for single-dose vials that don't need any ethyl-mercury preservatives and eliminate multi-use vial cross contamination!

15 cents! Our kids and our folks are getting shot up with thimerosal once annually (and twice annually whenever there is a lucrative flu scare, such as last season's "horrific" swine flu epidemic) so vaccine manufacturers can pocket another 15 cents per dose!

15 cents! This is what the decision makers at the CDC think about flu vaccine safety. They will reimburse for Merck $360 for three jabs of Gardasil, but they won't pay 15 fucking cents extra to eliminate mercury and cross-contamination risk from the annual flu shot they now recommend to every US citizen over 6 months old!

The CDC recommends http://www.cdc.gov/injectionsafety/patients/syringeReuse_faqs.html">single-dose vials over multi-dose vials "whenever possible", but if vaccine manufacturers can save 15 fucking cents per dose on flu vaccines, the CDC's own recommendation goes right out the window.

[Ian David]

1. The crazies will just scream and shout about something else in the vaccines.

But yes, it might be a good idea to finally put the PR disaster of this non-issue to rest.

[HuckleB]

4. The US is already moving toward that end, mostly for economic reasons.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/733986

This whole thing is a non issue in the real world.

[mhatrw]

5. What other first world countries use multi-dose flu vaccinations?

As far as I can tell, the USA and Canada are the only first world countries that do so.

Welcome to third world medicine, everyone!

[HuckleB]

6. .

:boring:

[mhatrw]

47. narcolepsy?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x99979

[HuckleB]

48. Got another red herring?

:rofl:

BTW, your thread is a duplicate. Look below.

[mhatrw]

49. What? How is it a duplicate? Please explain. n/t

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mhatrw]

3. Are there ANY other first world countries that use multi-dose flu vaccinations

other the USA and Canada?

[mhatrw]

7. Who in the USA would not pay 15 cents extra for mercury-free flu vaccinations for their kids?

Who is making these regulatory decisions that no responsible parent would agree with?

[BrightKnight]

8. There is on average 52.7 micrograms of real mercury in a 6 ounce can of tuna.

It is possible to get a can with a much higher dose.

A typical vaccine can contain between .5 mcg and 25 mcg of a mercury compound.

I would prefer a dose without it but before getting too excited about this you might want to visit the pantry.

[mhatrw]

9. The mercury in tuna is methyl mecury. The mercury in vaccines is ethyl mercury.

There is beat evidence that exists shows that they are basically equally toxic:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/v0203116418023h8/

Would you really not pay 15 cents extra a shot to eliminate the risk of both thimerosal and cross-contamination from your kids' vaccines?

[BrightKnight]

10. I did not read it that way and dosage matters. Also, I doubt that the economics are that simple.

I did not read the abstract to say that they were equally damaging at all. In any case the dosage matters for any substance. The dosage is below the EPA threshold for real mercury exposure. The dosage in a can of tuna can be several times the EPA exposure limit.

Regardless, I would prefer a vaccine without it. I would pay a few cents or even or a few dollars for a single dose preservative free vaccine, ceteris paribus. I would not make this choice if the overall availability to me was reduced or delayed. I would not make the choice if it compromised heard immunity by reducing the number of people vaccinated. You also have to add into the per dosage cost the millions of destroyed doses.

[laconicsax]

12. You have to read selectively to reach the same conclusions.

It helps to skip sentences like, "Based on both criteria, an equimolar dose of ethylmercury was less neurotoxic than methylmercury."

[mhatrw]

14. If you can understand English, the results are clear.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/v0203116418023h8/


Weight loss relative to the expected body weight and renal damage was higher in ethylmercury-treated rats than in rats given equimolar doses of methylmercury. These effects became more severe when the dose of ethylmercury was increased by 20%.


Hint: That sentence just said that ethyl mercury is more toxic to the renal system than is methyl mercury.


Thus in renotoxicity the renal concentration of inorganic mercury seems to be more important than the concentration of organic or total mercury. In methylmercury-treated rats damage and inorganic mercury deposits were restricted to the P2 region of the proximal tubules, while in ethylmercury-treated rats the distribution of mercury and damage was more widespread.


Hint: That sentence just said that ethyl mercury is more toxic to the renal system than is methyl mercury.


There was little difference in the neurotoxicities of methylmercury and ethylmercury when effects on the dorsal root ganglia or coordination disorders were compared.


Hint: That sentence just said that ethyl mercury is very comparable to methyl mercury in neurotoxicity.


Based on both criteria, an equimolar dose of ethylmercury was less neurotoxic than methylmercury, but a 20% increase in the dose of ethylmercury was enough to raise the sum of coordination disorder scores slightly and ganglion damage significantly above those in methylmercury-treated rats.


Hint: That just said that methyl mercury is at most 20% more neurotoxic than is ethyl mercury.


Summary: The ethyl mercury in vaccines is more toxic to the renal system than is the methyl mercury in tuna, and less than 20% less neurotoxic.

[mhatrw]

15. What other first world countries use multi-dose flu vaccinations?

Other than the USA and Canada, what other first world nations treat their own citizens so poorly?

[laconicsax]

11. There's also evidence that thimerosal leaves the body quickly.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21252391

The results indicate that mercury from thimerosal is not accumulated in blood in adults. This is in accordance with short half-lives and rapid metabolism of EtHg to inorganic mercury.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18245396

The blood mercury half-life was calculated to be 3.7 days and returned to prevaccination levels by day 30...The blood half-life of intramuscular ethyl mercury from thimerosal in vaccines in infants is substantially shorter than that of oral methyl mercury in adults. Increased mercury levels were detected in stools after vaccination, suggesting that the gastrointestinal tract is involved in ethyl mercury elimination. Because of the differing pharmacokinetics of ethyl and methyl mercury, exposure guidelines based on oral methyl mercury in adults may not be accurate for risk assessments in children who receive thimerosal-containing vaccines.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12480426

Administration of vaccines containing thiomersal does not seem to raise blood concentrations of mercury above safe values in infants. Ethylmercury seems to be eliminated from blood rapidly via the stools after parenteral administration of thiomersal in vaccines.

[mhatrw]

13. So you seriously would not pay 15 cents more for your kids' flu vaccines

to eliminate the need for any ethyl mercury preservative (thimerosal) as well as eliminate the risk of any potential cross-contamination from using a multi-dose vial?

Seriously?

[laconicsax]

19. Keep dodging the issue!

The last few seasonal flu jabs I've had were single-dose syringes. I didn't request them specifically, nor do I feel that a maximum of 50 μg of a substance that'll be completely out of my system in a few weeks is worth getting worked up about. What's more, the scientific literature supports my position.

You were hot to cite 45 mg/kg as a fatal concentration in another thread while ignoring the fact that 45 mg is about 1000 times more than 50 μg, and since that 50 μg is the total amount, a 6 year old child (youngest age to get 50 μg) weighing about 23 kg would be getting a significantly lower dose than 45 mg/kg.

So let's review, shall we?
-The amount of thimerosal in vaccines is at least three orders of magnitude below a lethal dose.
-Ethylmercury is 20% less toxic than methylmercury.
-Ethylmercury has a half life of about 4 days.
-Ethylmercury doesn't bioaccumulate.

Feel free to keep pretending that the thimerosal in vaccines is a major threat.

[mhatrw]

21. The issue is why you would not pay 15 cents more per flu vaccine dose to eliminate all risk

of multi-dose vial cross-contamination while also getting rid of any real and/or perceived risk of a completely unnecessary mercury-laden preservative that is so toxic that just a single drop of it could kill the average one-year-old.

Please explain yourself.

[laconicsax]

24. Again with the hyperbole!

One drop of thimerosal is thousands of times more than the amount in vaccines. The dose makes the poison.

Oh, and by the way, here are a few recent studies that explain the usefulness of multi-dose vials:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20678588
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20566395
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20009517
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19716458

And one about the importance of using thimerosal and other preservatives: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16370953

[mhatrw]

25. LOL. I heartily encourage anyone interested to read all five of those studies in full.

Meanwhile, you keep avoiding the central point of the OP.

Would you or would you not pay 15 cents more per vaccine dose to entirely eliminate all risk of multi-dose vial cross-contamination as well as remove all traces of mercury from your own children's annual flu vaccines?

Is erring on the side of caution to protect the health of your children not worth 15 cents per vaccine to you?

[laconicsax]

32. Keep exposing your profound ignorance.

Your question is meaningless, and your own ignorance is keeping you from realize it.

[mhatrw]

35. In other words, you can't answer it. n/t

[mhatrw]

20. LOL. Because it leaves the blood relatively quickly, it must leave everyone's body quickly?

Where is the proof that it is always excreted rather than stored in tissue?

A lot of it seemed to attack the kidneys and nervous system in http://www.springerlink.com/content/v0203116418023h8/">this experiment.

[laconicsax]

27. *sigh*

:eyes:

[mhatrw]

28. So you've obviously got nothing.

It generally leaves the blood relatively quickly compared to methyl mercury. Where it goes after that is anyone's guess. Right?

[laconicsax]

31. If you'd done an iota of reading on the subject, you'd know how it's expelled. n/t

[mhatrw]

34. Show us the science then. n/t

[laconicsax]

37. I already did.

Thanks for confirming my suspicion that you don't even read what's handed to you.

[mhatrw]

39. Sure you did. n/t

[HuckleB]

44. Yes, you did. You've done so many, many times. -eom-

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mhatrw]

50. LOL

:rofl:

[mhatrw]

16. Multi-dose flu vaccines contain 25 mcg of MERCURY.

Not a mercury compound. MERCURY

A typical 6-oz (170 grams) can of chunk light tuna contains about 19 mcg of mercury. A typical multi-dose flu vaccine contains 25 mcg of mercury.

Tuna is ingested. Vaccines are injected.

Would you seriously not pay 15 cents more per shot to remove this mercury from your children's flu vaccinations? I'm just tying to understand your rationale here.

[BrightKnight]

17. You want to ban muti-dose vaccines because you don’t like thimerosal. -n/t

[mhatrw]

18. Who exactly likes thimerosal?

Do you realize that a single drop of it can kill a human being?

Just 20 milligrams per kilogram of thimerosal is an immediately LETHAL dose for 50% of test rabbits.

That translates to just a single drop (1/400th of a fluid ounce) to kill your average 22 pound one-year-old human child.

Just what is there to like about thimerosal if you can get rid of it completely for about 15 cents per vaccine dose?

[laconicsax]

22. There you go again!

20 mg/kg is lethal, but your 1-year old child is getting 12.5 μg of thimerosal distributed in her entire 10 kg body. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that 1.25 μg/kg is thousands of times less than 20 mg/kg.

The dose makes the poison--1000 mg of salt is less than half the recommended daily value, but just 100 times that amount is a lethal dose for an average adult.

[mhatrw]

23. There you go again completely avoiding the issue!

Would you or would you not pay 15 cents more per vaccine dose to entirely eliminate all risk of multi-dose vial cross-contamination as well as remove all traces of mercury from your own children's annual flu vaccines?

Is erring on the side of caution to protect the health of your children not worth 15 cents per vaccine to you?

[laconicsax]

26. Your exaggerations will get you nowhere.

I've already addressed your loaded question. Go ahead pretending that thimerosal in vaccines is a major concern and that multi-dose vials are significantly more dangerous than single-dose ones though. You're continually demonstrating that someone who didn't reason their way into a position can't be reasoned out of it.

[mhatrw]

29. You've already addressed my "loaded" question? Where?

It's a simple question. It's always been the same simple question. And you've never even come close to addressing it.

Why it is not worth 15 extra cents per dose to you personally to entirely eliminate all risk of multi-dose vial cross-contamination as well as remove all traces of mercury from the annual flu vaccines you get for your own children?

[laconicsax]

30. Your question is meaningless.

The contamination risks or multi-dose vials are the same risks as for single-dose vials or syringes if proper sterilization procedures aren't followed, and the amount of mercury in annual flu vaccines is at most negligible.

That, and as anyone who's received a vaccination should know, you're not going to be charged extra for a single-dose vial/syringe or get a discount for using a multi-use vial.

Every part of your question is meaningless.

[mhatrw]

33. Thimerosal is comparable to strychnine in its fatal dose toxicity to mammals.

And the contamination risks of multi-dose vials are real enough that http://www.cdc.gov/injectionsafety/patients/syringeReuse_faqs.html">"Whenever possible, CDC recommends that single-use vials be used."

But you wouldn't shell out 15 cents per dose to eliminate both of these risks completely? Not 15 measly cents a dose? Not even for your own children?

[laconicsax]

36. I don't manufacture vaccines.

If you realized what you're actually asking, you'd understand why that's important.

[mhatrw]

38. What I'm asking is why the United States and Canada are the only

first world countries that use multi-dose flu vaccinations with thimerosal when it would cost vaccine manufacturers less than 16 cents more per dose to supply us with the pre-filled syringes and single dose vials that all other first world nations use.

I'm wondering how you would handle such a decision if you had to make it personally. Because I (and I suspect every other parent reading this) would gladly pay an extra dollar per dose for greater peace of mind, netting vaccine manufacturers a healthy profit.

[laconicsax]

40. Thank you for admitting your question was meaningless and predicated on a false premise. n/t

[mhatrw]

41. Thanks for staying up all night fighting to keep mercury in flu vaccines. n/t

[laconicsax]

42. Glad to know you have an all-night straw supplier.

I'd hate to see you not be able to build your straw men.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mhatrw]

46. Who here would not personally pay 15 cents more per vaccine dose to entirely eliminate

all risk of multi-dose vial cross-contamination as well as remove all traces of mercury from his or her own children's annual flu vaccines?

Please explain your rationale for pocketing the 15 cents at the expense of exposing your kids to an admittedly low risk of cross-contamination as well as an admittedly low risk of mercury exposure side effects.

Then tell us why you think it is acceptable that all Western European citizens get safer flu vaccines than most US citizens.

[mhatrw]

51. Retail price comparison for NY State vaccine procurement: 2011-12 flu season

http://www.ogs.state.ny.us/purchase/spg/pdfdocs/1020021362p.pdf

$9.15 for each dose of multi-dose thimerosal-containing FLUZONE vaccine (excluding $0.75 per dose federal excise tax)

$10.29 for each dose of single-dose thimerosal-free FLUZONE vaccine (excluding $0.75 per dose federal excise tax)

That's a difference of $1.14 per dose retail price.

Even when the $1.00 extra profit to vaccine manufacturers is included in the price, what parent here would not pay an extra $1.14 per vaccine dose for safety's sake, given the choice?

[laconicsax]

52. The document you linked doesn't show retail prices.

It shows how much the state of New York paid a distributor for the various vaccines. You do understand the difference between retail and contract purchasing, right?

Wait, let me guess...you teach the subject.

[mhatrw]

55. LOL. Wholesale price. You really caught me in a HUGE mistake there!

LOL

[laconicsax]

58. Yes, I did. Especially since it undermines your persistent argument.

The manufacturing cost, and the wholesale price do not affect the retail price the way you keep insisting.

The retail price is the same for single-dose and multi-dose jabs.

If it makes you feel better, I'm sure Sanofi Pasteur will gladly accept 13.7 cents if you mail them a dime, three whole and one mutilated penny. Maybe you could take pictures of the entire process and post them here.

[trotsky]

53. You are begging the question.

"for safety's sake" - You have yet to demonstrate that the thimerosal in a flu shot is harmful. You're assuming that's a foregone conclusion, when the evidence is against you.

No wonder no one takes you seriously.

[dmallind]

54. 13.7c times ???

If there are, as I believe to be the case, 100+ million vaccinations annually in the US do you want to pay "big pharma" that many more millions - even if they sold the higher cost item at zero additional margin, let alone their normal percentage?

[mhatrw]

56. Imagine there are 2 kinds of flu vaccines in front of you.

One flu vaccine has 25 micrograms of mercury in it, and it costs $19.00. It comes from a 10 dose vial that, on average, about 5 other needles have already been stuck in.

The other flu vaccine is the exact same formulation as the first except it has no mercury whatsoever in it, and it costs $20.00. It comes in a single-dose vial or pre-filled syringe.

Given this choice, which of these two vaccines would you choose to buy for your kids?

[laconicsax]

57. FFS! That's not how vaccination works!

When you get a flu jab, you aren't charged a different amount based on which type of dose you receive. You're charged a set amount and get a shot. The amount you pay doesn't change based on single-dose or multi-dose preparations. It depends on a fixed rate and whether you have insurance that will pay for it.

Here's another shocker...some places provide the jab free of charge! How dare they not even give you the option of paying fractions of a cent more or less!!!

[mhatrw]

59. No Western European nations use ethyl mercury containing multi-dose flu vaccines.

Among first world nations, only the USA and Canada treat their citizens so shabbily.

All I am asking for is a choice. Given a choice, the free market would take care of the rest. If there is some actual logistical reason not to offer a choice, then why not on only offer the safer choice as all Western European nations do?

[laconicsax]

60. Prove that the thimerosal in the annual flu vaccine is harmful.

Unless you can do that, your whole argument about "choice" and the "free market" is invalid.

[trotsky]

61. I don't think I've ever seen you prove this claim you like to throw around.

Namely, "No Western European nations use ethyl mercury containing multi-dose flu vaccines."

What is your source for this information? Considering how wildly mistaken you've been on other items you throw out as "facts" (such as your laughable 50+ vaccines claim), I think there is very little you can say without being seriously doubted.

[laconicsax]

62. Why are you in favor of giving more money to big pharma?

That's what you're advocating: paying millions of dollars more to big pharma.