Biological Clocks Discovery Overturns Long-held Theory

[HuckleB]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008143005.htm

"...

The true signaling mechanism is very different: The timing signal sent from the SCN is encoded in a complex firing pattern that had previously been overlooked, the researchers concluded. Forger and U-M graduate student Casey Diekman, along with Dr. Mino Belle and Hugh Piggins of the University of Manchester in England, report their findings in the Oct. 9 edition of Science.

To test predictions made by Forger and Diekman's mathematical model, the British scientists collected data on firing patterns from more than 400 mouse SCN cells. The U-M scientists then plugged the experimental results into their model and found that "the experimental data were almost exactly what the model had predicted," Forger said.

...

The SCN contains both clock cells (which express a gene call per1) and non-clock cells. For years, circadian-biology researchers have been recording electrical signals from a mix of both types of cells. That led to a misleading picture of the clock's inner workings.

But Forger's British colleagues were able to separate clock cells from non-clock cells by zeroing in on the ones that expressed the per1 gene. Then they recorded electrical signals produced exclusively by those clock cells. The pattern that emerged bolstered the audacious new theory.

..."


Cool research. I can't wait for the follow ups.

[aquart]

1. Analog or digital? Was he kidding?

[Ms. Toad]

2. Don't think so -

Think of a light switch - the traditional switch is digital - on/off; a dimmer switch is analog - no clear on or off, just a gradation between the two.

I'm worried they are now going to think they can/should "fix" those of us whose clocks never synced well with the 8-5 world (and who currently get called lazy all the time because sleep fits better for us between 2AM and 10AM than 10PM and 6AM).

[petersjo02]

3. 2AM to 10AM

That describes me to a tee. And for more than half of my working career I had to be at work at 7AM. Loved the job but hated having to get up every single morning I worked there.

[Ms. Toad]

5. Same here - but it was earlier than 7 AM.

Then on weekends I'd try to catch up by sleeping in, but it just doesn't work. Got real tired of people insinuating (or outright telling me) I was lazy because I wasn't out of bed at what, for me, was the middle of the night.

[aquart]

4. Or 7 am to whenever. Sigh.

[Ms. Toad]

6. That's closer to my daughter's schedule -

but for now it is because of an underlying illness. Absent the illness, it would be closer to mine - but perhaps an hour or so later.

[HuckleB]

7. It depends on what part of the world you're in, I guess.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[DangerousRhythm]

8. Arrrgh. This fits me more.

I try and try to get to bed before sunrise but it just never, ever happens, and I've been that way since I was a kid. It's very hard for me to keep a "normal" schedule.

[HuckleB]

9. It is hard for some to be disciplined to themselves.

[DangerousRhythm]

10. I've laid in bed, awake for six or seven hours in an attempt to sleep...

probably more times than I care to count. It really wasn't about discipline at that point but severe insomnia and it was like torture to me. For many years, on average I'd get 2 or 3 hours of sleep before I had to go to work or school, and not for lack of trying either.

[HuckleB]

11. So have a lot of people.

The 24 hour clock goes around the world. Any individual can time him or herself to a rhythm, if she or he chooses. Insomnia is real, but it is not something that simply goes away because one decides to live on Spanish time in California.

[DangerousRhythm]

12. Yes, I'm aware of the rest of the world, thanks.

I'm also sharing my personal experience. If you want to pick a stupid fight with me about something that plagued me for a couple of decades and still continues to be a constant struggle, I guess that's your prerogative, but you'll be fighting alone because I didn't post here to be scolded by a stranger that it's all my fault and that I'm undisciplined. Thanks for your input though.

[HuckleB]

13. Who's picking a fight?

If you can't handle reality, that's not my problem.

Excuses are excuses. And unless you're dealing with true insomnia, excuses are what you're offering.

Discipline is not a joke, and it's not about an argument. I understand that some things are harder for some people than for others.

Sleeping on a regular schedule is hard for me, and it's hard for a lot of the people I know, that doesn't mean we try to redefine the world to our weaknesses.

[Ms. Toad]

15. Suggesting that keeping schedule is better is not the same thing

as defining one schedule is inherently weaker, lazy, or undisciplined.

It isn't about insomnia for a lot of us - it is about paying attention to the times our bodies are best suited to being awake.

[HuckleB]

17. Unfortunately, such theories don't mesh well with actual science.

They, in fact, as I already pointed out, ignore the fact that people live in different time zones the world over. Such a theory basically says that everyone must live in a specific time zone chosen by their genetic make up. That doesn't mesh with an understanding of brain plasticity, much less of human history or evolution. Prior to electricity, no one would try to offer up such a theory. In that, such a theory exists in a vacuum separate from human history, and it completely melatonin, electric lighting and many other factors.

[Ms. Toad]

20. No idea about why you're babbling about time zones.

My sleep cycle has nothing to do with being in a particular time zones, and when I move from one to another within a couple of weeks it adjusts to the same time relative to the sunlight period in that particular time zone.

The difference between morning and evening people is genetic, at least in part, - governed generally by a gene hPER3 (Period 3). People with the long version of Period 3 generally are morning people; people with the short version are generally night people. See, e.g., http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19716732

As for your references to human history and evolution - it ignores the real need in the deep dark recesses of history, long before electricity, to have people awake watching while the tribe slept to keep the tribe from harm. Having people who were naturally awake during the night was not just theoretically possible - it was a necessary for survival.

Your condescending attitude that there is a right and wrong time for your body to be awake is just plain rude.

[HuckleB]

24. It might be partly genetic.

Partly.

You and your friend ignore all the other factors.

[Ms. Toad]

26. My point is that it is entirely inappropriate to be judgmental

about being an "owl" v. a "lark." You've been rambling on about the need for discipline - perpetuating the nonsense that there are right and wrong, or good and bad sleep cycles.

I never said it was entirely genetic - what I said was that being judgmental about different sleep cycles, and each of your entire series of posts has been just that. If you want to change your sleep cycle (or happen to be a morning person) that is fine - but stop passing judgment on people who aren't.

[HuckleB]

27. Uh huh.

Your posts make it clear that you chose to ignore the multitude of factors that I brought to the plate, in order for you to actually feel like this study might lead to somebody trying to make you do something different with how you live your life.

When people pretend that everything is out of their control, as you and the other poster did, I am going to point out the ludicrous nature of such beliefs. You can call it judgmental, but perhaps you should simply acknowledge that you've made a choice that is easier for you, rather than pretend that you are a victim, or that many other people haven't found ways to live their lives at a variety of schedules.

To date, you have yet to consider any of the factors I have brought to the table. Since you fail to do that, why shouldn't I be judgmental?

[Ms. Toad]

28. Because judgment is inappropriate

if there is nothing inherently wrong with what you are passing judgment on.

[HuckleB]

29. I think my last post explains why judgment is, therefore, appropriate in this case.

[Ms. Toad]

30. No it doesn't.

You started chattering on about how ridiculous it was to even suggest that being a late night person was anything other than a lack of discipline. I responded directly to the most nonsensical two comments you made (that we would need to live in time zones according to our body clocks, and that no one would have suggested there might be different body clocks back in the dark ages before electricity). You then, in a parallel thread, suggested that anyone who thought that genetics played a role was spouting BS. I pointed you to the science that has identified a specific gene associated with the variation, so no you are claiming a right to be judgmental because there are other factors involved - and still insisting it is a matter of discipline, and have now thrown in that because I don't appreciate being judged for a characteristic that is not inherently good or bad that I am "playing the victim."

Bottom line - if there is nothing wrong being a night person, judgment is not appropriate - regardless of what causes it.

[HuckleB]

31. Don't try to rephrase what I wrote so you can argue against a strawman.

I clearly met your definition of when it makes sense to be judgmental. For that last time, you can choose to live on whatever schedule you want to live. Just don't BS people into thinking you don't have any choice in the matter.

[Ms. Toad]

32. And, for the last time, you are acting like a jerk

when you insist that anyone with a late night body clock who doesn't modify their schedule is undisciplined.

[DangerousRhythm]

16. You clearly are when you drop some bullshit remarks about me being undisciplined...

Who are you again? How do you know anything about me to dare call me undisciplined and weak, aside from the initial two sentences I posted? Oh, that's right... tonight is the first time I've ever had the pleasure of conversing with you, and hasn't it been a pleasure!

I guess empathy is also harder for some people than for others. I didn't post here to be talked down to, condescended to by some jackass who has no idea what my medical history is, let alone how I handle my sleep schedule. I posted, sharing a short, quite undetailed personal story in solidarity with someone who seems to be suffering from the same problem and then you came waltzing in with your unhelpful, uninformed criticism, even suggesting that I don't realize there are time zones and that I can't handle reality. Awesome. Nice to meet you too, Dr. HuckleB, MD.

[HuckleB]

19. I call a spade a spade.

You can choose to sleep when you want, but if you're going to try to pretend that you have some malady, or some different body clock of a purely genetic origin, then I'm going to call BS. You're choosing to ignore evolutionary history, the role of electric lighting, the role of melatonin, and a whole slough of other factors, if you're going to push what you're trying to push.

[Ms. Toad]

22. Time for humble pie for you. It is genetic. hPER3, specifically. n/t

[HuckleB]

23. Yeah, it's all determined by that.

And we know that definitively. And none of the pieces of the puzzle I have mentioned have anything to do with it.

Please don't play that BS.

[Ms. Toad]

14. That's the kind of nonsense I'm talking about.

There is nothing inherently lazy or undisciplined about paying attention to your body clock.

[HuckleB]

18. The body clock you claim to have is set by an electric world.

That's not a real body clock. Evolution, human history, the role of melatonin and light in sleep and time zones all argue against that notion. Sleep when you want to sleep. It's your right, but no pretend to be scared about science.

[Ms. Toad]

21. See my other post - it is you who are scared of science.

Do a little research.

[HuckleB]

25. I've done my research. I look at every piece of the puzzle.

You find one little possible piece on the floor and think you've put it all together.

Try again.

[Skyer]

33. Discipline Techniques

There are techniques to zone you out biased on discipline, and you're probably thinking of these. While those are at least not as boring as staring at the ceiling, they aren't nearly as restful as natural sleep. Also, just as the desire to sleep if often cued by lighting (For example, most people find themselves wanting to drift off earlier during the winter) so is the ability to wake up. I myself was trained to wake at first light, and to this day still cannot remain asleep after first light or 7:00am, whichever comes first. When you get tired is just as much a matter of when you woke up as it is when you normally feel like going to sleep.

[HuckleB]

34. Try to learn a little something about sleep biology, and then get back to me.

Your personal, anecdotal psychological quirks cannot be generalized, but thanks.