Doctors in Cuba Start Over in the U.S.

[groovedaddy]

MIAMI — In 1991, Carlos Domínguez, a family doctor in one of Havana’s poorest neighborhoods, bought a boat for 12,000 pesos — the equivalent of saving his entire paycheck for three years — to escape the government that had trained him to be an international doctor.

The boat was old and needed to be outfitted with the transmission from a 1952 Ford, one of the many American cars that still cruise the streets of Havana. The mechanic warned him there was no reverse gear. The boat could only go forward.

“Perfect,” Dr. Domínguez, now 46, said he replied. “I don’t plan on coming back. From now on, I’m just going forward.”

And so, armed with his grandfather’s World War II compass, he left Cuba and made his way to Miami, rowing the last seven hours after the gasoline ran out. He was 28 years old and ready to resume his life as a doctor.

But first he needed to pass four exams given only in English, and then put in several years of training as a hospital resident.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/04/health/04cuba.html?th&emc=th

[Mika]

1. Time to jump on the for-profit gravy train.

What a break he gets. NO OTHER illegal entrant immigrant group could get such a chance. Can you imagine the immigration influx if the US offered the same type of "Adjustment Act" immigration policy that it offers to Cubans only? I mean, more illegal entrants are pouring in from nations that have no such US immigration policy than Cubans now.

[Warpy]

4. Hospitals are mini UNs and there are a lot of foreign born

and foreign trained doctors and nurses working in them already.

The lucky ones can get their medical school transcripts from their home countries.

I've known some from Eastern Europe who ended up working low level jobs because those countries refused to forward their records.

[Schema Thing]

2. If America had a collective brain...

we'd definitely be turning to Cuba to provide doctors, and even be outsourcing our medical needs to them.


We need what they have wrt healthcare even more than they need what America can give them by normalizing relations.

[MADem]

3. Don't tell this to the few cheerleaders with rose-colored glasses on, though.

Odd how so many medical professionals want to leave that Island Paradise where the Government is Perfect and Everything Is Wonderful!


. . . While the rest of the country is suffering from a shortage of primary care physicians, Miami is awash with Cuban doctors who have defected in recent years. By some estimates, 6,000 medical professionals, many of them physicians, have left Cuba in the last six years. . . .In the 50 years since the revolution, Cuba has sent more than 185,000 health professionals on medical missions to at least 103 countries. About 31,000, most of them doctors, are in Venezuela, where they work in exchange for cheap oil and other trade benefits for the Cuban government.

And more are in the pipeline. Cuba’s official news agency reported that more than 25,000 health professionals graduated this year, “the largest graduation ever.”

But many doctors on the island are now vying to be tapped for an international mission, in part because they know that no matter where they are sent, they will be one step closer to a visa to the United States.. . .


It's interesting to hear from someone who has the ability to actually "compare and contrast" what the skill levels/training, and good and bad are, too.



Lianete Pérez, 37, works as a medical assistant in the office of a pediatrician in Miami. A former anesthesiologist, Dr. Pérez longed to leave Cuba, arrived in 2002 and is studying to take the medical exams later this year. Unlike other doctors who resent having their skills tested years after medical school, she said she welcomed the chance to go back to the books. . . .

. . .Dr. Domínguez, the hospice nurse, said he was mostly at peace with the fact that no one calls him “Doctor” anymore, except some old patients from Cuba he sometimes run into in Miami. He earns more than $100,000 a year, sends his two children to private schools and vacations with his family in France and Spain. But he said a part of him would always pine for the profession — and the title.

“I’ve had to get used to think as a nurse, but it’s difficult,” he said. “Deep down, I’m still a doctor.”

What would be great is if they could establish a certification program where these doctors could work as nurses and PAs while they garner the training and the experience with modern techniques on a part-time basis to resume their duties as a physician.

In the post-Castro era, Cuba may well become a center for international, affordable medical training. They're plainly used to the volume, all they'd need to do is establish a few multi-lingual programs and update their techniques.

[Mika]

5. Weird that its only Cuban Drs and med students doing this.

:eyes:

What percentage of Cuban Drs have left ("defected") while on a foreign medical mission? What, about one or two percent? The overwhelming majority return to their home, in Cuba. More Cuban baseball players "defect" than Cuban Drs.

[MADem]

6. Not weird. They've been targeted. The program hasn't been around that long.

It's more than a "feet wet" game. In VZ, the doctors escape their minders, sneak off and hide in safe houses, and immigrate with a valid visa--the guy with the boat is unusual.

Read the whole article. You're playing the apples and oranges game, and totally making stuff up, too, which causes your credibility to suffer greatly. Six thousand people isn't a "few bad apples." If six thousand cops bullied six thousand black Harvard professors, no one would be saying "Nothing to see here." Yet that's what you're trying to do--minimize an occurence that is plainly, except to the willfully obtuse, significant.

The doctors get government visas. The baseball players who defected after Castro took charge got help from sports agents.

I think if there were six thousands Cubans who entered major league baseball, with visas in hand, in the last few years, we'd sort of notice that.

Here's the list of all of those baseball players you're trying to pretend are somehow "equivalent"--going back to the NINETEENTH Century. http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/birthplace.php?loc=Cuba

"Dozens," I'd buy. Thousands? I think not.

:eyes: indeed. Complete invention never helps an argument.

Here--more reading on this topic for you. You're clearly not up to speed on it:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/02/25/MNGN4O8FAC1.DTL
Cuban doctors defect from Venezuela posts
Castro's program to aid Chavez opens way for 'desertions'

http://medicinacubana.blogspot.com/2009/02/cuban-doctors-defect-in-venezuela-after.html
Cuban doctors defect in Venezuela after Chávez's victory.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yoani-sanchez/cuban-doctors-traded-for_b_155465.html
Cuban Doctors Traded for Venezuelen Oil

And, for context, the thoughts of a Cuban revolutionary doctor who takes issue with Castro's use of their talents--see what happens when you dare to criticize in Cuba? But oh, it's such a 'paradise,' sure:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE55D1UI20090614
Dissident Cuban doctor reunited with family

[Mika]

8. No stats on any of your links. Just anti Castro/Chavez BS and Lincoln Diaz Balart swill.

Let us know when stats of these "six thousand" numbers you cite show up anywhere credible.

Dr Molina left Cuba's health system because she felt it wasn't as socialized as she would like.

Nice try, but no go.

[MADem]

9. Yeah, from all those right wing cites like the Huffington Post and the SF Chronicle.

That's evidence of a failed argument -- Waaah, I don't like your "cites." When all you've come up with is BS and astoundling uninformed "opinion."

And you didn't read the LIST of Cuban baseball players I gave you? Gee, that's a "cite." You didn't read the "cite" of six thousand visa holders since the program started in the NYT news article? Gee, are you suggesting Obama's state department makes shit like that UP? How special.

And Dr. Molina did not leave Cuba for that reason you invent--she left to see her dying mother. No sale. She got edged out because she didn't like Castro using doctors like a commodity, like say, pork bellies or wheat.

Of course, Dr. Molina isn't the central player in this thread, but you want to try to shift the discussion, so you don't have to confront the fact that six thousand Cuban doctors who were able to escape from close supervision while engaged in "commodity" overseas service (under onerous conditions, too) have entered the US on visas in the past few years.

The one without "cites" is you. You're just talking complete and total trash and getting mad because I notice.

[Mika]

12. How many Cuban Drs "defected" while on a Cuban medical mission?

Still no numbers?

Seems as thought you're the one getting mad because I don't toe the anti Castro/Chavez line that you toe.

I know and have worked with many Cuban Drs. I've just returned from an 8 day cleft palate surgical mission in Nicaragua where I worked shoulder to shoulder with Cuban surgeons and other surgical/dental ancillaries. I've lived in Cuba during the 90's. I have many Cuban friends in Cuba and here in Miami where I now live. I know Cuba well. I have a great laugh at the opinions steeped in American anti Cuba commiephobia, but I do understand its all surrounding nature in this country.

When you come across those stats of how many Cuban doctors have "defected" while on a Cuban medical brigade in another country, please do cite it.

[MADem]

13. Look if you are going to behave stupidly and not read the cites, I can't help you.

In one cite, they mentioned sixty at a single pop. The total thus far, as noted in another cite, is around six thousand since this visa program started JUST A FEW YEARS AGO.

Read. Stop acting like an ass and demanding "numbers." I gave them to you.

I don't give a shit how many Cuban doctors you've "worked with." I'll believe published reports before I believe some crank who claims to be a dentist on the internet.

You have not been able to prove that what these reports and the US state department say is untrue, you've just snarked at me and behaved like an asshole, demanding "numbers" that I already GAVE you. Which proves you're either a dullard who cannot read, unfettered by a requirement TO read before you mouth off, or you're a provocateur who reads, and ignores.

READ THE ARTICLES I gave you. The fucking numbers are IN them. Or keep acting like an asinine tool who isn't fettered by facts. I really don't care. You really do lay it all out there--and not in a good way, either.

[Mika]

17. Horseshit. Still zero solid numbers.

Is this what you are mewling about, from the OP claiming it as a statistic? With Ana Carbonell, chief of staff for RW exile Repug Lincoln Diaz-Balart supplying these "stats"? :rofl:

By some estimates, 6,000 medical professionals, many of them physicians, have left Cuba in the last six years.

FYI, "medical professionals" could mean a hemostat salesman, receptionists - but for Castro's nephew (Lincoln Diaz Balart's) anti Cuba propaganda purposes its a good catch-all to gin up the spin. Nice work emphasizing it.

--

To your posted links..


First citation of baseball stats interests me very little.

Your second citation states there are about 40 out of 20,000 (0.02%)

Third citation states that no number is known but a "large contingent". (Some people say reporting, like Faux news), but had this..

In August of 2006, the United States announced a program that would make it easier for defecting Cuban doctors to reach the United States, but the program has never worked as well as it was expected.

Fourth citation is Yoani Sanchez, a well (foreign) financed and supported professional "dissident" mewling over the hotels requiring that their WiFi be used by guests only (like any hotel anywhere) that Yoani supposedly maintained her blog (Generation Y), which turned out to have been BS too, she was decrying the move by the hotels as textbook Castro repression. Another "some people say" source of unsubstantiated hearsay (for pay).

Fifth is about Hilda Molina, whom this thread is not about.


Now, where are these solid number that you are getting all hot and bothered about me not reading? They are certainly not in your links. Just "some people say", "it is believed", "according to some" bullshit that you are touting as the real deal about mass numbers of Cuban Drs "defecting" from Cuba and from Cuba's medical brigades.

A higher percentage of Canadian Drs "defect" to the US to make more money than do Cuban Drs.

You've got horseshit for any real stats so far, and even the few actual numbers mentioned indicate an extremely low number (considering comparative immigration stats to the US of foreign doctors).


Let us know when some actual number show up on these mass defections of doctors. Have a nice day.

[MADem]

19. You're quite obtuse--those are six thousand CMPP visas that were issued.

Two thousand of those people are already here (they pay their own freight under this program, but if you paid attention, you'd know that). That's what the entire article is in reference to. But go on and ignore these points, because you apparently think denying the obvious makes you somehow "cool." It doesn't.

The criteria for the CMPP are quite precise--but if you knew what you were talking about (and you do not) you would KNOW that. Hemostat salesman? REALLY? Do they go on medical missions, routinely? I think not.

The criteria, right from SECSTATE Clinton's Department of State--educate yourself:

How does a Cuban Medical Professional qualify for consideration of parole? Cuban Medical Professionals must meet the following criteria: (1)must be a Cuban national or citizen, (2) must be a medical professional currently conscripted to study or work in a third country under the direction of the Government of Cuba, and (3) must not have any ineligibilities that would prevent admission into the United States.

If "hemostat salesmen" are "conscripted," Castro's in even worse trouble than we realize. You haven't made your case.

The thing no one, least of all you, can explain away is that if the place were such a fucking paradise, no one would be bribing government officials for exit visas, no one would be getting in boats and pushing off, no one would be deserting from medical missions, and they wouldn't be so desperate as to be leaving their families behind with hopes of sneaking them out or bribing someone to provide them with an exit visa to try to build a better life here.

Keep reading.

The State Department Program: http://www.state.gov/p/wha/rls/fs/2009/115414.htm
http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/Article.aspx?id=981
http://www.flalaw.us/visa_fast_track_for_cubans.htm
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y07/mar07/16e6.htm (scroll down)
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jun/10/news/mn-39590
http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=Americas&month=February2007&file=World_News2007020471915.xml
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/02/AR2007020200987.html
http://cuba-l.unm.edu/?nid=42887
http://www.visalaw.com/h09apr/9hapr09.html
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/333/7565/411?ehom=
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y00/may00/26e3.htm


I always have a nice day--something you seem chronically unable to manage. You;re always happiest, it would seem, when you're bitterly, angrily griping about your half-full glass, making shit up, and pretending that reality isn't happening around you while being cluelessly snide all the while.

You are completely unable to engage anyone who doesn't see things your way without spitting out a steady stream of fact-free snark. That doesn't reflect well on you, either.

So, yeah--you go on and have one of those nice days. I already got mine.

[iverglas]

16. I'm still not taking your point here

These doctors are on medical missions abroad from Cuba.

They know that if they "defect" they will be given visas to enter the US?

What sort of bizarre immigration/foreign policy is this? if I'm understanding it correctly. Just Cuban doctors? Not Indian doctors or Canadian doctors?

What earthly conclusions can be drawn from this? if I'm understanding it correctly.

Someone is offered a ticket to the promised land and goodies when they get there.

Take the ticket and the goodies out of the equation, and what is it?


... I dunno. One of your sources says:

In August of 2006, the United States announced a program that would make it easier for defecting Cuban doctors to reach the United States, but the program has never worked as well as it was expected.

Dozens of doctors, who reached Colombia after abandoning their jobs in Venezuela, are still waiting for more than a year for US authorities to respond to their request to travel to the United States.

Do I understand you to be saying 6,000?

I'm just lost.

[Mika]

18. You're not lost.

Just stepped into some DU Cuba "expert" horseshit.

Its easy to rinse away with some actual experience. Hopefully doing so will be legal for all Americans soon.

[MADem]

20. It's the Department of State's program. It's been in effect for three years, almost.

Six thousand visas have been issued to people who have defected. Two thousand, at least, are here already.

They have to pay their own way here, or find someone in USA to loan them the airfare--we don't scoop them up and pay their way. We simply give them a visa if they want to come on in.

If they want to leave a medical mission (per the guidance, this is only for people who are conscript medical professionals--indentured laborers, in essence-- and engaged in medical missions) they can apply for the program, get fast-tracked, and come on in.

Please examine the Department of State link I provided elsewhere in this thread. It will answer your questions.

[iverglas]

11. I was having a hard time grasping your point

until I went back and read your first line.

I don't find it odd that some members of a group of people who do not enjoy a heap of privilege in their home country, and are being wooed with what is not available to others in their country - admission to a place where they're pretty much guaranteed wealth, and where their quest for it is facilitated - would jump ship.


In the post-Castro era, Cuba may well become a center for international, affordable medical training.

Actually, that's what it was for a long time in the Castro era.


Maybe I just know things you don't. Good friends of mine were doctors in Havana. Once was Cuban, the other, married to him, was a Canadian who trained there. I used to visit her. She returned to Canada because her marriage broke down and she wanted to bring her kids to her own country. Not because she wanted to make a pile of money and badmouth the Cuban government.

I met Cuban doctors who had been abroad, to Africa, to deliver health care. I was treated at a hospital in Havana.

I'm still not actually taking your point.

[MADem]

14. I am talking about medical care that isn't for the Poorest of The Poor.

I'm talking about down the street, working and middle class care. Castro's outreach is to the poorer populations, and, as the articles I provided point out, the training they receive is rigorous but it lacks a lot--not the least being state-of-the-art equipment and practices.

See, that's why Castro turned to SPAIN for his OWN medical care, as he started to fail, and didn't leave it to Cubans. He got himself one of the top sawbones in Europe. http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N17351242.htm

The point I am making is that when the day comes when more than one political party is allowed in Cuba, and people can speak freely and travel without agita or a minder (which they can't, now, no matter how much revolutionary BS you or anyone wants to toss), and there's a nice little combo of private enterprise and a public safety net happening, Cuba is well poised to enter a new era where they are able to expand their export of medical care in a more PERMANENT and more international way. Right now, Cuban doctors are a commodity, that are handed out and taken back in exchange for goods and services, like, for example Venezuelan oil. They also train some foreign doctors from poor countries (again, in exchange for goods), but not as many as they could if they ran their schools in a more proactive way (which is difficult to do when you don't have "stuff" with which to teach). And they not only don't have the best equipment, they don't have access to the more modern methodologies, either.

All that could be improved in a post-Fidel Cuba, and likely will be. That's my point....see?

[iverglas]

15. well, maybe you know better than me

The point I am making is that when the day comes when more than one political party is allowed in Cuba, and people can speak freely and travel without agita or a minder (which they can't, now, no matter how much revolutionary BS you or anyone wants to toss),

-- edit -- okay, I've got it. You're talking about travelling outside Cuba. So what follows is in many respects irrelevant. But I'll just leave it.

I guess I'd just add that you would have to remove US visas and goodies from the equation too.



Do forgive me tossing my personal experience.

It isn't recent, but nobody ever travelled with me. Except the gang of friends I first went with, and we wandered off on our own the whole time I was there, and the close friend I travelled with the second time, and we spent too much time picking up guys. The three times I travelled alone, I got a visa, went on a plane, went to a hotel in Havana and got a room, and variously hopped a bus to Santiago de Cuba for a few days, bicycled a long way out of Havana to some beaches, wandered around here and there, spent a few days at Veradero with some Canadians working in Cuba, and came home. It was a while ago. I remember getting an exit visa once. And I got caught photographing a military encampment along the highway east of Havana once. I was actually photographing the Havana harbour skyline in the distance (a no no in itself) and somehow hadn't noticed the uniforms and tents in the foreground. Seriously. I got an interview with a one-eyed colonel and a piece of paper to take away saying I was a socialist lawyer and I had been warned, I think. And I kept my film, which had my doctor friend's Christmas photos on it.

I met and talked with people all over, and other than the odd malcontent - young men with notions of the young man's good life in the USA - I met people who were obviously quite happy with their lives and proud of their society. (The young men in question very much resembled two young men from the UK I've hosted in Canada recently - life at home is a drag, life on this side of the pond is so much better ...)

Now, my brother did work in Havana for two years a while later. Locally hired, working for a Cuban enterprise. He did find the political climate changing while he was there -- coincidentally, on the same curve as the economy worsening -- and came home. He never had a minder, but he was aware that people associating with foreign residents were growing nervous.

But just imagine how different things might have been now if that little economy problem hadn't happened. All nations depend on trade for various aspects of their standard of living. Cuba, out of them all, has been denied that opportunity to a large extent for a long time now. What might have been ... they might have had the "stuff" of which you speak.

[MADem]

22. Look, I am not playing the "what if" game. I am simply trying to speak of

an active Department of State program called CMPP (Cuban Medical Professionals Parole) that fast-tracks Cuban medical professionals who have been conscripted and are on state-sponsored medical "missions" for visa eligibility, and getting a load of horseshit from Mika who doesn't want to acknowledge the existence of the program, for some fucked up reason.

CMPP does not pay them to come here. They have to find their OWN way. They often have to work under the table in their asylum country, or find a benefactor in USA. All it does it allow them to apply and get an entrance visa on an expedited basis.

That way, they don't have to come by Elian Inner Tube or Bathtub boat. They can come by Delta or American or any other airline from South or Central America, or East Timor, or Trinidad, or Africa, or where ever they've been dumped and told to work a twelve hour day.

Cuba will not let people they consider "useful tools of the state" to leave. The few exit visas they issue are for malcontents that they don't feel like keeping an eye on, and they shake down their relatives and demand big bribe money for that exit stamp. That is NOT the mark of a free society, and it's a fact that is irrefutable and no one can explain it away. There's no country in North America that behaves that way--if people want to leave Canada, USA or Mexico, well, don't let the door hit ya. But that's how a free society works.

You may think no one was watching you while you scampered about, but believe me, everyone was watching you. You likely have a good thick, stasi-like file stashed away in their archives. Maybe you'll live long enough to see Cuba opened up and then you'll be able to read all about your activities and how they were perceived.

You may also think that people were "quite happy" as you chatted them up but they might have been, er, LYING to you. I sure as shit wouldn't tell the truth to some bozo "tourist" asking me how things were going in that environment--yeah, everything's wonderful boss, we just love it here, boss, and we'd NEVER want to leave, boss, ever!.

And if they saw you chatting with a one-eyed colonel, they probably thought you were ratting them out. That's what I'd think.

Iran pulled the same shit in the Shah days, and they're even worse now after the Revolution.

Cuban people are swell--it's just their government that's fucked up. Anyone who thinks Castro or any of the elites live like the rest of the population is smoking some pretty strong stuff!

[iverglas]

24. "That is NOT the mark of a free society"

Yeah, well, using another society as a brothel cum gambling den, and then as the schoolyard victim, and then enticing its professional class (and the credentials and experience they steal from their own society) with benefits offered to no one else in the world, millions of whom do live in a state of actual real indentured labour, not to mention in refugee camps and communities destroyed by natural disasters and societies in the throes of civil wars and genocides, isn't exactly the mark of a society that gives a shit.

If you don't mind my saying so.


You may also think that people were "quite happy" as you chatted them up but they might have been, er, LYING to you.

Yeah, I've always been stupid that way. And you know exactly whom I met and talked with, since I'm a bozo tourist. Except I wasn't.

Btw, I did know Margaret Randall there, and I wasn't impressed.


You may think no one was watching you while you scampered about, but believe me, everyone was watching you. You likely have a good thick, stasi-like file stashed away in their archives. Maybe you'll live long enough to see Cuba opened up and then you'll be able to read all about your activities and how they were perceived.

My god. If I believed that, I'd have myself hospitalized.

Have you ever actually been to Cuba?


Iran pulled the same shit in the Shah days, and they're even worse now after the Revolution.

Oooh! Let's talk Iran! How many Iranian refugees have you represented, and how many letters of thanks from Massoud Rajavi do you have on your wall? (It was a bit of a bribe, but it didn't work, as I was sufficiently disillusioned with the organization by then.) Ever been promised that a street (well, okay, an alley) in Tehran will one day be named after you? You actually think you can teach me about the block committees in Iran? Know anybody whose father got tossed into Evin prison because a business competitor wanted his trade and fingered him as an opposition supporter? I do.

I met people in Havana who were on block committees. I know the role that block committees played in the reform of the family law - which was the only reason my friend was able to leave her husband when she did; the ground-up approach to reforming attitudes and eventually law had worked.

And since I evidently know more than you about both situations, I'll be going with my own assessments.


Anyone who thinks Castro or any of the elites live like the rest of the population is smoking some pretty strong stuff!

Anyone who said that must be typing in invisible pixels, 'cause I sure haven't seen it.

[MADem]

25. "Two wrongs" and "have you been there?" doesn't change the simple fact you

cannot refute -- People can NOT leave.

And let's not talk Iran. You apparently understand that it's corrupt--like Cuba is.

And let's not talk about terrible Americans (all of whom are dead now) who used Cuba as a brothel or a gambling den.

Let's talk how many people can leave Cuba just because they want to, they feel like it, they want to go on a whim.

Oooh, how many would that be?

Answer--none, except maybe Raul and a few of his cronies.

You "evidently" know nothing about anything worth discussing, if you cannot grasp this truth--THEY CAN'T LEAVE. They are not FREE.

And if they were free, you'd be wanting to get the fuck outta the way, because you'd be knocked over in the stampede.

Really.

[iverglas]

32. hmm

Let's talk how many people can leave Cuba just because they want to, they feel like it, they want to go on a whim.
Oooh, how many would that be?

Let's talk about women and children living in refugee camps in Darfur in constant fear and want. How many of them can leave just because they want to, they feel like it, they want to go on a whim? How many, again?

People who want to leave someplace ordinarily have to have another place to go to. The vast majority of people in the world can't leave where they are (okay, maybe "on a whim", if they happen to be able to afford a week in Tahiti).


And let's not talk about terrible Americans (all of whom are dead now) who used Cuba as a brothel or a gambling den.

Why not? Why not talk about THE EMBARGO and maybe the Bay of Pigs while we're at it? Talking about how and why things are the way they are isn't relevant?


You "evidently" know nothing about anything worth discussing, if you cannot grasp this truth--THEY CAN'T LEAVE. They are not FREE.

FREEEEEEDUMB. Jeez Talking to Americans (TM) is fun.

[MADem]

37. Changing the subject doesn't work. And that "FREEDUMB" comment--Priceless.

People can't leave Cuba when they want. Not for a job opportunity, not to visit relatives in San Juan or Miami, not to take a trip to Tahiti or Bermuda or Jamaica.

You keep ignoring that difficult, basic truth.

Cognitive dissonance really sucks, doesn't it? That's why you keep trying to change the subject. We're talking about people who are not free to leave CUBA, not refugees in DARFUR. You want to talk about DARFUR? Really? Start a thread on it. Go on, DO.

"FREEDUMB?" I hardly think that Cubans who want to get the fuck off their island prison would call it that. I think they'd find it a rather important and valuable thing.

It's the most central feature of our democracy....and you flippantly call it "FreeDUMB."

Thanks so much for running your flag up the flagpole, today, especially, as those two young ladies returned home with President Clinton to what you call "FreeDUMB."

Now we can see you from a distance.

What a sight.

[Mika]

26. You just make shit up.

You may also think that people were "quite happy" as you chatted them up but they might have been, er, LYING to you.

You are posting that my own family, my close friends from childhood until now in Cuba are all lying to me? Hoo boy, now what kind of paranoid shit are you smoking?
This 'everyone is spying on you' and 'there's a spy on every corner' swill you are peddling is as thin as one potato soup. The only people you can sell this swill to is the only group of people who are travel banned by the dictate of their government.. (non Cuban-) Americans.

I sure as shit wouldn't tell the truth to some bozo "tourist" asking me how things were going in that environment

This is obvious because you aren't telling the truth now. You're just making shit up about Cuba's "stasi-like" spy network building up large files on tourists. Serious paranoia pushing only works on people who haven't been there, and/or have an anti Cuba agenda.

Ladies and gents reading this thread: Cuba is not the dark & scary place this poster is imagining it being.

[MADem]

27. I wasn't talking to YOU...unless that's your SOCK PUPPET that made those statements?

Why are you acting like I was talking to YOU when I made that statement? I wasn't talking to YOU, nor was I saying Jackshit about your "own family," now, was I? Unless you've got more than one account on this board?

You sure are something. That's not a compliment.

For someone who's such an "expert," it's obvious that you knew nothing about the CMPP at all. But hey, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain--is he a "hemostat salesman?" :rofl:

So don't wave your "experience" at me--I'm not buying much of what you say. Based solely on what you have said here, you don't come off as credible to me.

You just outed yourself as either a user of sock puppets, an inattentive provocateur who responds to posts directed at others, or simply someone who is in serious need of a life. Or maybe all three.

Get back to me when CUBANS CAN LEAVE CUBA FREELY.

Because they can't now. And all of the drama and horseshit you spread ain't changing that one critical and pesky fact. And you keep calling me names because you have no response to that--that's the "MAJOR FAIL" in your mewling arguments.

Like I said--when Cubans can leave their nation freely, I'll listen to what you have to say. Until then, I will view you as a mindless apologist for a regime that seriously limits the freedom of their own population.

Those two young ladies who just left North Korea know a little something about freedom, now. Maybe you ought to look to them for a little life lesson, and stop assuming that people are talking to you when they're doing nothing of the sort (unless, of course, you have more than one account here?).

[Mika]

28. Even though your post was in reply to another, your comment applies to my family and friends in Cuba

You called them all liars. When you launch a false attack on all Cubans, you are launching a false attack on my family and friends there. If you want to PM the poster with private conversation go ahead, but as far as I know I am free to respond to your putrid swill peddling here.

Do you have the definitive definition of "medical professionals" as used by exile repug Lincoln Diaz Balart's office, who's stats you cite as being accurate (which is in no way possible without a clear definition of "medical professionals")?

Let me know when you cough up some more solid numbers on those 'mass defections' of Cuban Drs, other than the usual "according to some" BS.

Have a nice day.

[MADem]

29. No it doesn't, because I wasn't TALKING TO YOU.

Go bother someone else with your fake, pouting outrage. Stop inventing phony "insult" so you can have an excuse to get all wound up like an internet banshee looking for a foolish argument.

I didn't "launch a false attack on all Cubans" either. You pulled that right out of your ass along with all of your upthread ramblings. Stop making false accusations about what I said, and grow up. I'm starting to wonder if you're even of voting age. Your conduct and your commentary lack a mature perspective.

If you want "definitive definitions" beyond the one I GAVE YOU UPTHREAD directly from the State Department link (and seeing as this is a STATE DEPARTMENT PROGRAM, they, not I, are in charge of "definitions," definitive or otherwise), I tell you what--get off your didactic, complaining, repetitive, have-no-valid-argument ass, waddle over to your phone, call the State Department, and ASK THEM. Go on, do it. Or is your dialing finger broken? Hurry, hurry, now. You're eager, so get moving. You apparently can't read what they say and comprehend it, maybe it will sink in if someone recites the program requirements to you.

Ask them if they include "hemostat salesmen" in their definition of Cuban medical professional conscripts on overseas "medical missions." Go on. Tell us how long they laugh after you ask that, too. :rofl:

Also, since you have them on the phone, ask them if Cubans can travel freely. I'll bet you already know the answer to that one, but you'd never know it reading this thread.

You can't seem to cough up anything more than utter horseshit, poutrage and flaming. To say nothing of sticking your beak in commentary that is plainly not directed at you to pluck out fauxrageous claims of offense. That's your MO. Why I have no idea. You're a real "character." Not in a good way, either.

I told you before, I ALWAYS have a nice day. Every day since this past November is a genuine delight and a true joy for me. You're the one having trouble in that regard--every time I run into you. Tsk, tsk.

[Mika]

30. Still no actual numbers on the mass migration of Cuban Drs.

No point in getting all worked up over me pointing out that you've got nothing but BS and hearsay. I don't dispute that the US programs exists, but even by some of the commentary within your own sources, these programs aren't very successful.

I know you're upset that I don't toe the anti Cuba line that you do, and that I don't agree with you that all Cubans are liars, but my opinion is based on actual experience in Cuba and with Cuban Drs.

Cheers.

[MADem]

31. Still showing us your ass, eh? Arguing for argument's sake--last vestige of the frustrated and

deeply unhappy.

Read. Grow up. And get some help.

Call the State Department, too--they'll answer the questions you apparently can't/won't read in the cites I've provided you.

I'm not "upset" with you, I feel sorry for you. It's plain there's something NQR. Pretty seriously, too.

Work on that.

[iverglas]

34. you seem to have missed the lecture on basic civil discourse

You made assertions. You have been asked to sustantiate them. You decline to do so. You engage in streams of personal invective and make further and more personal allegations.

That actually isn't how it works.

[MADem]

36. Ah, the tag team twins, eh?

Why don't YOU try reading, too? I did "substantiate them." It is the first thing I did.

It takes a little something called "reading" to pull out the details, though. Most people who participate in discussion forums have that down--there are, I see, a couple of rather blatant exceptions, and here you are.

And if the details I provided aren't sufficent, why don't you help out your little alter-ego and call up Hillary Clinton's Department of State and ask for a little more clarification....hmmmmm? Ask about that "hemostat salesman" who is also a medical mission conscript, eh--and do get back to us on that!

To expect people to not act like asses is not "streams of personal invective." Pointing out that CASTRO does NOT let people LEAVE CUBA is not "streams of personal invective." Of course, cognitive dissonance can and does get people like you upset--but that's your issue. If you had your worldview grounded in reality, instead of the Happy Fantasy of Contented Cuban Campesinos, who "don't wanna EVER leave this pretty little island, boss!" you could acknowledge that Cuba has some serious human rights and freedoms issues. If they didn't, people wouldn't be leaving the Happy Island Paradise in bathtubs and inner tubes.

But whatever. You enjoy your illusions. I really am beyond caring what you and your 'otherbuddy' think.

I'll conclude by pointing out that whoever smelt it, dealt it. But you have one of those nice days, too. They're 'free' for the asking. Unlike the Cuban people.

[iverglas]

33. something you might like to know

I wasn't talking to YOU...unless that's your SOCK PUPPET that made those statements?
... You just outed yourself as either a user of sock puppets ...

I have been here for many many years, and you know that. You know who I am.

I think I've seen the name Mika before, but I doubt I've ever engaged in direct conversation with him/her. You have just made a false allegation -- albeit in the usual deniable way -- and you need to retract it.

You have made statements on an open forum where anyone who sees them is at liberty to take issue with them. Freeeeeedom.


Like I said--when Cubans can leave their nation freely, I'll listen to what you have to say.

Someday, you might want to consider that you aren't the centre of the universe, and that other people in the world have preferences and priorities different from yours.

[MADem]

38. Well, you're wrong about that, too. It's not a baseless allegation.

This person crawled up my ass just the other day, complaining about dentistry. When I asked for solutions, all I got was more whining and complaining. You probably ought to do some checking before you accuse people of stuff. You and your little twin have that same problem, I see.

I quite clearly have no idea who you are. Anyone who calls a basic tenet of our system of government "Freedumb" is not a Democrat, not a progressive, not a person I would even want to know. Anyone who is so fucking eager to make a point that they'd say something like that isn't a serious person.

I think the Cuban people would love some of that "freedumb" you make fun of. I think the Iranians would, too. I sure know the North Koreans would like some. But you think it's a catchphrase, and that people who value it are "dumb"---because you're so "clever" with your "freedumb" snark.

I think human rights matter. You put "I Gotta Be Right About Castro" idiot-ideology over the very essential concept of personal freedom....or as you call it, "Freedumb."

This has nothing to do with being "the centre of the universe." It has to do with you backing a dictator WHO DOES NOT LET HIS PEOPLE LEAVE and denigrating a basic democratic principle. That's not "left." That's "dumb."

You're obtuse. Woefully so. But like I said, thanks for letting us see your stuff from a distance. It's instructive.

[iverglas]

40. oh really

Here's how the exchange went:

You "evidently" know nothing about anything worth discussing, if you cannot grasp this truth--THEY CAN'T LEAVE. They are not FREE.
FREEEEEEDUMB. Jeez Talking to Americans (TM) is fun.

This is what my constitution says:

Mobility of citizens

6. (1) Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada.

Does yours?

I am free to go to Cuba and return to Canada, any time Cuba will have me.

Are you?

Is it because Cuba won't have you? Well, maybe it wouldn't. But I think the reason is that your own government won't let you.

FREEEEEEDUMB. Get it at all?

People in the US die for lack of health insurance / health care, because they don't have money. Do people in Cuba die for lack of health care because they don't have money? No. If anyone dies for lack of health care, it isn't because they don't have money, it's because of THE U.S. EMBARGO more than anything else.

Maybe there are people - even people in the U.S. - who actually care more about staying alive than leaving home on a whim.

Anyone who thinks that having permission to leave one's country and go where one wants is the sole or most important measure of freedom (when they themselves actually do not have that freedom, yeesh), or refuses to recognize that other people in the world are perfectly entitled to measure their societies against the standards THEY choose, and to set their own priorities, thinks they are the centre of the universe.

The ONLY reason that anyone in Cuba would be able to leave Cuba is that THE U.S. WOULD ADMIT THEM no questions asked. Does the U.S. do that for nationals of ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD? No. So if you're so concerned about other people being able to leave their home countries, why are you not fighting for an open door immigration policy? If you want to leave home, c'mon over. Start with the women and children in Darfur, I'd suggest.


I quite clearly have no idea who you are.

Oh, I'm offended. Okay, so you just chose to speak to me in the offensive way you did because you speak that way to anyone who disagrees with you and/or requires that you substantiate your allegations.

Huh. This one is interesting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2635995


I think human rights matter. You put "I Gotta Be Right About Castro" idiot-ideology over the very essential concept of personal freedom....or as you call it, "Freedumb."

I don't, and hey, I also don't smear insults around based on what I've invented about someone instead of addressing what they said. And I don't call freedom "Freedumb". I call your usage of the word that.

[MADem]

41. I do not know you.

I don't "know" anyone who mocks liberty, and then tries to make it seem as though they were saying something other than what they were saying. You said it.

Just because I responded to a thread you wrote three years ago doesn't mean I know you. Based on what you've said here today, you're a total stranger.

I am completely free to visit Cuba, any time I'd like, provided they give me an entry visa. I can go anywhere--a "State Department Warning" is not a prohibitive action, you (plainly do not) know.

You don't "know" US law as regards travel to Cuba, that's quite clear. Anyone can GO. The restrictions are on who can spend money. If you have a rich pal from Spain who is picking up the tab, you can spend MONTHS in Cuba. The issue isn't presence, it's transfer of dollars. If your rich Spanish pal pays your hotel bill, or your marina yacht fees, and buys you your meals, you're golden. No law violation. The idea, you see, is to not give money to a dictatorial regime that represses their population and won't let them LEAVE.

And, if you are a scientist, educator, student, athlete, journalist ( like Barbara Walters, or even an independent one, like Michael Moore), a humanitarian (religious or otherwise), or a businessman egaging in trade of non-prohibited materials (foodstuffs, medicines, publications, to include digital media etc.) you can get a "license" to spend money in Cuba (standard government per diem rates). You just have to keep good records and limit your expenditures to the State/Treasury maximums.

If you're visiting family, you can spend even more--and you can send money and goods regularly. You can even pay a thousand dollar bribe to get a relative an exit visa.

You really ought to do your homework before you say stuff like "Waaah, I can go to Cuba....can YOU????"

:eyes:

Here's a cite with the overview of the rules--they are much more specific than this, but since you and your buddy don't read anyway, you can look this shit up yourself if you really care (and I suspect you don't, because it doesn't support your ill-informed thesis): http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/programs/ascii/cuba.txt

Go have one of those nice days. Do your homework before you snark, too. We "freedumb" loving people don't think you're cool when you make fun of basic human liberties and progressive values like the freedom to LEAVE when you want to--something the Cuban government does not permit their people to do.

[iverglas]

42. Ah, I get it

In the US, if you have rich friends, you may do what others may not.

Colour me surprised.

And rest assured that I don't think you're at all cool when all you can do is continue to misrepresent what someone else has said.

[Mika]

44. The poster seems to think than Canadians can just drop in to the US stay & work.

Willy nilly.

Only Cubans get to do that under the US Cuban Adjustment Act and the US Wet Foot/ Dry Foot policy for Cubans only.

There are enclaves of Cuban communities all over the world and they are free to travel back and forth at will. That used to be the case with the US until some draconian US visa policies were enacted. The Bush43 regime routinely denied visas to Cuba artists, musicians, lecturers, scientists, award winners receiving medals, etc, were all denied travel visas by the US government over the recent years, not Cuba.

[iverglas]

45. I know!

I'm not freeeeeee!

But then, since I'm a Canadian, that's definitional, and besides, Canadians don't care.

My sib happens to be a leading expert on an aspect of Cuban culture, and he hasn't mentioned any trouble visiting, or having relevant Cubans come here for events organized in Canada.

(Sorry, no, I don't say who he is or what that is, 'cause that would kinda be saying who I am. ;) )

[MADem]

49. I don't "seem to think that." I never said that. Someone is hallucinating,

or making shit up, as usual.

[MADem]

48. Mika, you don't know shit. Stop trying to invent scenarios about me.

You have no idea what you're talking about, and you make that that entirely clear every time you try to issue one of your nitwitty "corrections." You don't know me, and you sure as hell don't know US law under the current administration, snark notwithstanding.

That cite I provided was a 2009 document. In case you're unclear, that's THIS YEAR.

[MADem]

47. A poor person can LEAVE the US. Just like a rich person can.

Or a middle class person.

No one can leave Cuba, unless you're a friend of FIDEL. Or you pay a HUGE bribe.

We're not talking about the ability to spend money in Cuba (gee, that's the one "right" you have as a tourist that many Americans don't have--the ability to throw your money at a despot who keeps his people prisoner on an island), we're talking about the "free-dumb" of the Cuban people being abrogated. Because, according to you, it's surely DUMB for those Cubans to want to be able to travel freely. How stupid of them!


I am not misrepresenting what you said, either. You insulted Americans, and you mocked "Freedumb."

Your mask slipped, and it's too late to edit, so you're stuck with what you said.

I'm not trying to be "cool" but I'm not letting you get away with that sleazyass comment that shows your true nature, and I really don't care if you like that or not.

You made the "freedumb" remark, you live with it.

[Mika]

51. Leave to where?

Do you really think that anybody (besides Cubans coming to the USA) can just up their stakes and move to another country? Getting immigration visas to countries is no easy matter and highly dependent on factors like profession, wealth, sponsors, future employment, etc etc, not to mention some very long waiting lists. Do you think Canadians (our close neighbor and major trade partner) can just up and move to the US, or the other way around?

For Cubans only, who arrive legally (via a visa lottery the US runs for 20,000 immigration visas per year - more than any other country - but not all are even applied for) or who arrive illegally, the US offers only to Cubans instant access to work visas, instant temporary resident status, instant access to social security, instant access to food stamps, instant access to welfare programs for Cubans only, instant access to section 8 housing and bumped to the head of the line. This is the carrot on a stick that the US offers to no other nationality, that the anti Cuba folks proudly claim as trophies in la causa every time a Cuban Dr takes up the special offers made to them only. Still very few actually "defect" from their tropical hellhole of Cuba according to even the ginned up numbers they use as justification of their BS about dark and scary Cuba.

[MADem]

52. Gee, I knew poor sailors in San Diego that used to go to Mexico all the time.

I know poor students from Ireland that used to come to USA to work for the summer.

There are poor people from Brazil and Mexico and Guatemala and Honduras who left their countries to seek opportunity elsewhere. There are Jamaicans and Trinidadians and Haitians who aren't rich and managed to save their pennies and dollars to get the money together to leave and travel to USA or UK. See--they could LEAVE.

Castro won't let people leave. They can't save their money and leave on a vacation, or save their money and emigrate, or apply for a job overseas doing anything. They can't leave.

They. Can't. Leave. They are prisoners of Castro.

[iverglas]

53. um, do you really not understand immigration law?

Or is your case that Cubans want to go to Disney World on vacation?

[MADem]

55. Who the fuck is talking about immigration law--except you, frantically trying to change the subject,

YET AGAIN??

They.

Can't.

LEAVE.

It doesn't matter if they want to "go to Disney World," or work as a domestic in Madrid, or serve as a Spanish teacher in Fargo, ND, or run a factory on a work visa in San Juan, or go to school at UNH.

They.

Can't.

LEAVE.

[iverglas]

57. I am always reminded of a Cuban joke

You're reminding me of the billboard I saw everywhere in Havana one of the last times I was there.

¡Emulación!

"Emulación". Hmm, who/what are we emulating? I asked my Cuban English-teacher date on New Year's Eve. Blank face. Well you can't just "emulate", I said. You have to emulate someone or something. No, no, he said; we're just emulating.

It did give me a chance to get everybody to stare at me a few years later at a film festival where I was watching Death of a Bureaucrat. At one point, our hero walks out of a government office onto a sidewalk where a gentleman is snoozing, leaning up against the wall, bottle of rum in hand ... and ¡Emulación! poster on the wall above his head. I burst into guffaws. Apparently I was the only one who got the joke.

Anyhow.

They.

Can't.

LEAVE.

, you say.

You do understand the whole time and matter thing? You can't be in two places at once, and conversely, in order not to be here, you have to be somewhere else.

In order for someone to LEAVE place "A", they have to GO TO place "B". It's a sine qua non. It's definitional.

You can't emulate nothing, and you can't leave without going somewhere else.

Do you see the problem we're having here?

If all these millions of unhappy Cubans could leave, WHERE WOULD THEY GO? And if they couldn't go anywhere, in what sense could they LEAVE?

I'll cross my fingers this time, but I won't hold my breath.

[MADem]

60. Cubans are smart. They work hard. That's why some don't like them.

They'll work longer and harder and for less. They will undercut anyone in South America, and do a better job. They'll work for less than a Mexican will in Mexico.

They'll work all over the globe in domestic service, as cooks, nannies, you name it, live in, twelve hours a day, and not gripe. They'll do those jobs that no one wants to do, even in this economy, wiping old folks' asses, that can't be filled because no one wants to do them. They'd happily work cruise ships, and not complain at the eighteen hour days.

Plenty of them are well educated. I know a couple of Cubans who work in a pharmaceutical plant in Puerto Rico--they're scientists, and they ESCAPED in an old boat. Cubans can do all sorts of work, and they're willing to do it, too. Why? Because they want to LEAVE.

Anyone who wants a willing worker will be happy to have a Cuban on the payroll. Stop pretending that the doors are closed to them. They aren't. You're just trying to invent that fiction because you can't explain why Castro won't let them leave their island prison.

You're inventing a stupid, in-your-head scenario where it's not that they can't leave, it's that you imagine no one will let them in their countries.

That's bullshit. And you know it.

One more time:

They.

Can't.

Leave.

[Mika]

21. More horseshit.

Dr. Jose Luis Garcia Sabrido flew into Cuba to render his second opinion. His diagnosis, which carries great weight being that he is a specialist in exactly the colonic necrosis condition Mr Castro suffered from because of Castro's own decision to avoid a colostomy, confirmed that the treatment prescribed by the Cuban health care system was exactly the right treatment.

FYI, this is exactly what specialists do all over the planet!


Interesting for profit spin you have there on Cuba's solution. Nary a mention of the millions of poor in Cuba and all over the world that Cuba's health ministry (which is comprised of Cuba's medical workers) has chosen to help. Plus, maybe you should do some real research on just why it is that Cuba doesn't have access to much of the most of the most advanced medical technologies. Its called the US's extra territorial sanctions that prevent sales of high tech to Cuba that require special costly OFAC permitting or penalize medical manufacturers for selling products to Cuba's national health system.

The US's myriad of sanctions on Cuba over time have been specifically tailored to cripple Cuba's economy - and its done a real number on the island. But, despite it, Cubans have persevered and have performed human and humane outreach wherever possible. Every Cuban Dr I know is most proud of this work.

You have a laughable comment on the use of doctors as a commodity. :wtf: The place to be a real commodity as a Dr is right here in the USofA, because, as you know, US doctors charge too much and are too wealthy at the expense of the people that need help, especially the working class.

Cheers

[MADem]

23. The one spreading the horseshit is YOU, Mika. And you are piling it higher and deeper

and it stinks--just like your arguments do. And your spin is a riot. "Three failed operations" (at least, per most reports) is hardly "successful surgery." A 'clean up' surgeon, arriving from Spain with a plane containing everything needed for a full, modern operating theater is hardly a "consultation," or a "second opinion" no matter how much the doc values the privacy of the doctor-patient relationship.

And let's not forget the good surgeon-doctor is an acclaimed expert in the treatment of pancreatic cancer. And oh...where IS Fidel these days?

Cubans cannot LEAVE their island paradise. Not without paying the big bribe for the exit stamp. And all of the "laughable comment" bullshit you are shovelling here doesn't change that FACT. It is NOT a free society. Don't put the "evil America" bullshit on me, either. I wasn't running the Cuba desk, so get over that "two wrongs make a right" argument--it doesn't work.

Keep whistling past the graveyard, and/or being obnoxious to me, if it makes you feel important.

It doesn't change the facts, and the facts are that Cuba is not a free society.

[angstlessk]

7. he did not 'start over'..Cuba paid for his education and he served as a resident

hell, american dr's spend 100,000 before they have the privilege of serving as a resident!

[MADem]

10. Yes he DID start over. He's not a doctor anymore.

He's in a totally different line of work, in the big picture.

He went from being a family doctor to being a hospice nurse.

And he went from making a few bucks a month to making a hundred grand a year.

[Mika]

35. Peddle swill much?

He was a "medical professional" in Cuba and he's a "medical professional" here in the US.

Only difference is that he's now overpaid compared to the caring service rendered at reasonable rates by Cuban Drs working for the Cuban ministry of health.

How many working class poor can afford hospice that pays $100,000 to the nurses?

At the .02% "defection" rate of Cuban medical professionals cited in one of your links it seems that Cuban Drs, by and large, have higher ideals than just scoring big bucks of a US dysfunctional privatized health system that serves only stockholders and CEOs. They actually serve the people, and do so with dedication and care.

[MADem]

39. Gee, what a charming subject line. About your speed and quality, though.

He started over.

He was a doctor in Cuba, and he is a nurse here.

And according to you, he makes too much money. You have no idea what he does, or how hard he works, and you make that pronouncement that he's "overpaid." Please. You also know nothing about the hospice he works at, yet you "assume." It's what you do very well, I've noticed.


And keep pretending that your little "percentages" mean something.

If the Island Paradise was so great, why would anyone want to leave? If it was so great, why couldn't people come and go as they please?

If the place was so FREE, why would anyone HAVE TO ESCAPE?

Cuban citizens are PRISONERS of their government. And all of the snark you toss doesn't change that FACT.



Have a nice day (you're still not managing that, obviously, with your "swill" landen subject line)--and get back to us when you start making sense about freedom in Cuba.

[Mika]

43. Right. Small percentages mean nothing when it shows the claims of mass migration to be BS.

BTW, by your metric Canada must be a real hellhole of despotism because more Canadian doctors escape Canada to get to the US than Cuban Drs.

Your fantasizing know-nothing points and claims about Cuba are pathetic. Even your own links don't support your crap.

Cheers

[iverglas]

46. How more bleeding obvious could it be

that the project to siphon off doctors from Cuba is designed to undermine Cuba's social infrastructure, not to give the doctors their freedom? I mean ... why doctors? Oh yeah. They're indentured ...

[Mika]

64. According to a link posted upthread getting them into the US is secondary - out of Cuba is #1.

Upthread there's a link that reveals that some of these "defectors", encouraged by the US gov program and Miamicuban anti Castro exile organizations, have been stranded in a 3rd country and unable to get action from the US. They can't get work permits in the 3rd countries where they are stranded.

Evidence that you are absolutely correct, iverglas. The goal is to claim warped trophies in the noble fight against the evil island of Dr Castro - trying to deplete the number of Drs in Cuba. Dangling a carrot on a stick and slamming the door on them in a 3rd country and crushing their desire to continue in the profession they love. But IF they are able to make it here, as exemplified in the OP story, they will wipe old folks' asses for $100,000/yearly salary.

Even at salaries at the level of the OP story, an astoundingly low number actually take up the offer. The vast majority of Cuban Drs are in the profession that they love - and that is caring for their patients in a world class universal health care system of their making.

[iverglas]

65. my Canadian friend

was the director of a teaching polyclinic in Cuba. She worked her ass off (as she did when she returned to Canada in private practice). She loved it, and in all the time I spent in her home, I never heard her gripe. Yes, she could leave when she wanted, but her husband and children were Cuban, so until the marriage broke down and family law was reformed to give her custody rights, she was kinda imprisoned too. But I was just a bozo tourist, and if she'd wanted to gripe to a fellow Canadian, she would have been afraid to ...

The doctor and other personnel who treated me when I fell down in a gutter - xray, tetanus shot, antibiotic prescription - were uniformly pleasant and thorough and the hospital was considerably better than the NHS hospital I had to take my mum to in north London at the nadir of Thatcherism, and no different from what I was used to at home. Nobody slipped me secret messages begging for help to leave.

I've dealt with defectors, from a sports team, in Canada. I know how people being watched 24/7 by minders behave. I know what it's like, because they were watching me too. It isn't fun to be handed the phone to listen, and hear someone (someone you know has guns and is following you) say that the defector you're representing has been kidnapped and deceived by the Cdn govt, the resistance and a socialist lawyer. (Hm, that seems to come up a lot.)

I did have a bit of a scare in Cuba once, other than that (admittedly bozo) photographing episode. I was on the bus back to Havana from Santiago de Cuba, it was the middle of the night, I'd dozed off, and suddenly we stopped on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere in the dark. We were told to get off, there were lit torches, there were men in uniform standing around, people were questioned, they had us step in something, and we got back on the bus. They ignored me completely. My Spanish wasn't great, but my seatmate managed to explain to me that there was an outbreak of some swine disease where we were coming from, and the stuff we stepped in was to disinfect our shoes, and the questions were about whether anybody was carrying pork products.

[MADem]

50. Canadian doctors are "free" to emigrate. As are doctors from most other countries.

Except Cuba.

There, they are held prisoner. Like the rest of the population.

[iverglas]

54. I'm not a doctor, but I'd like to emigrate

I'm an ex-lawyer. Does that count? I speak three languages, and type really fast.

Will you have me? Where do I go for the visa, now?

[MADem]

56. If you have a criminal record and no means to support yourself,

you might not be a candidate for immigration.

But you CAN leave.

YOU can go to Disney World,

YOU can take a job if it is offered to you,


YOU can go to university in USA,


YOU can visit family and friends in any country.....

But CUBANS?

They.

Can't.

LEAVE.

[iverglas]

58. Hmm, ask a Bulgarian

Or someone from Cyprus, Greece, Malta, Poland or Romania. Just to mention Europe.

Can they go to Disney World? Can they visit family and friends in the US?

Not without a VISA they can't.

You know why? Because the US government considers the risk that people from those countries WOULD NOT LEAVE once they got there to be high. So they pre-screen visitors, to determine that the risk of any particular visitor not leaving is not elevated. They look at things like employment and residence and family in the prospective visitor's country, and sometimes they even ask tricky questions, like Wouldn't you like to live in the US if you could? Say yes, and you won't be getting a visitor visa. Have marginal or no employment, no spouse and children, basically no good reason to go home, and you won't be getting a visitor visa.

So if all these Cubans are desperate to leave Cuba FOR GOOD, who do you suppose is going to give them a visa to visit Disney World, or go to the 2012 Olympics in London, or go anywhere else?

Not Canada, I can tell you. Canada screens potential visitors just exactly the same way.

The US? The US is going to start issuing visitor visas to any Cuban who wants to visit Disney World? Maybe so. Just not to anyone from Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece, Malta, Poland or Romania, eh?

So once again, we're not seeing people who CAN'T LEAVE. We're seeing people who have NOWHERE TO GO. If we believe you, that they're all dying to "escape" in the first place.

Damn, the concern you express for people who can't jet over to Orlando for the school vacation brings tears to my eyes.

There are grounds for criticizing Cuban public policy. You're just doing one hell of a piss-poor job of it. It occurs to me that a reason is this USAmerican fixation on "freedom", something more often heard from the right. The left tends to be at least equally concerned about adequate food, clean water, access to medical care, access to education, and stuff like that. Because being able to LEAVE, when you don't have the money to go anywhere, and have nowhere that would take you if you could, isn't uppermost in the minds of most people in the world. Especially if don't have a job and can't feed your children and send them to school and get them vaccinated.

How many US citizens leave their country in a year? In the course of a lifetime, for that matter. I'm pretty sure the percentage would be single-digit. Even counting Canada and Mexico. It's not something that seems to be of great concern to US citizens for themselves.

Oh, and by the way -- I have no criminal record and have a very lucrative occupation that I can pursue from anywhere in the world. I qualify for a NAFTA exemption. But --

YOU can take a job if it is offered to you

-- no, I can't. As I was saying, you really don't have a clue about immigration. And when you talk about emigration FROM country "A", YOU ARE TALKING about emigration TO country "B", whether you grasp this or not.

[MADem]

59. You are totally wrong. If you cannot take a job "THAT IS OFFERED TO YOU"

then you must be in prison. Or an iron lung.

And you emigrate FROM, and immigrate TO. That's pretty basic as well. I think the one who doesn't "get" it is you. When you start snarking at people for not having one of those clues, it really does help if you have one yourself.

And you say you "used to be" a lawyer?

You're inventing scenarios where people "might" be denied a visa, and trying to pretend it is the norm, when it isn't.

You're afraid to face the fact that Cubans Cannot LEAVE.

One more time--it does not matter how many people "do" leave their country. That's NOT the issue. And we're not discussing how long people are allowed to stay. We're talking about Cubans who cannot leave their island prison.

We're talking about (and you keep trying to change the subject about) people being trapped, being held prisoner by a dictatorial regime, and not being allowed to leave to go ANYWHERE--not just USA, but UK, Bahrain, Kenya, Japan, Italy....ANYWHERE.

The point again, is that most people, even if they don't actually leave their home, have the CHOICE. They have the choice to visit, to go on holiday, to take a summer job as a waiter in Hyannis or Tokyo, or a nanny in Beirut or Boston--if it is OFFERED to them, to leave their country to accept a scholarship to a university, or simply to fly to a city and see a frigging Madonna concert, if that's what they want to do.

Cubans do not have the CHOICE. You keep trying to push that to the side, when it's the Main Point.

They don't have that "freedumb" of which you speak and snark.

One more time:

Cubans.

Can't.

Leave.

[Mika]

61. Thousands and thousands of Cubans used to visit the US every year to visit family, etc

Then the Bush43 admin started cutting off travel visas using the rubric (I kid you not) of the fear that they might stay without going through the normal legal immigration visa application process - this was part of the Bush policy that ended up cutting off the usual orderly immigration negotiations w/Cuba, that have just recently been resumed. I have several neighbors here in Miami who's family used to come here from Cuba every year to visit, go to Disney & Sawgrass Mills mall, and then return to Cuba, before the US's travel visa changes. It used to be completely routine here in Miami, the Tampa area, and New Jersey, where there are larger enclaves of Cuban immigrants.

Funny thing is, I returned from a trip to Nicaragua recently and there are Cubans all over the place - traveling to and from Cuba all the time. I've experienced the same in Ecuador, Haiti, Canada, France, the Netherlands, Britain, and more, where I have made it a point to seek out the Cuban enclaves.

You can peddle your swill to the uninformed, But I'll go with the facts on the ground - where the rubber hits the road - over your anti Cuba swill.

[iverglas]

63. no, surely not

Then the Bush43 admin started cutting off travel visas using the rubric (I kid you not) of the fear that they might stay without going through the normal legal immigration visa application process

That can't be! People aren't denied visitor visas because they might not go home!!!! I was 100% wrong when I said that, don't you know????

[MADem]

67. How many times are you going to use the phrase "peddle swill?"

Obsessive about the term? Likely you've ingested too much of it. Facts on the ground! Rubber meets the road! Gee, watching a Firestone tire commercial, are you?

The Cubans in Nicaragua are military personnel stationed there, teachers and conscipt medical professionals--all under the watchful eyes of minders, ferried there on government aircraft. They can't leave, either.

You make things up, so you can stow the "personal anecdotes." I don't find you credible at all, and that is entirely your fault. You probably returned from Nicaragua Street in Miami, for all the credibility I attach to anything you have to say--and that's based primarily on your inability to be forthright in this thread.

[Mika]

73. It is not me peddling the swill out of Lincoln Diaz Balart's office & Cubanet. That is you.

And, under scrutiny, even those links you posted don't support the crap you're pushing here.

As mentioned upthread, more Canadian Drs "flee" Canada than Cubans, and Canadian Drs aren't offered the preferential immigration perks that Cubans are. Not even a quarter of one percent of health workers (let alone Drs) "defect" from the "conscripted" Cuban medical brigades "forced" to toil in the commie hell hole of Venezuela.

Your hatred of Cuba and fears of commies might have tainted any sense of reality you might have had at some point.

You are full of crap on this topic. You know zilch about Cuba and Cubans living in Cuba.


Cheers

[MADem]

76. Go drink some swill, and contemplate all those Cubans who can not leave. NT

[Mika]

77. OK, I'll contemplate it with some of my Cuban friends in Cuba, Canada, France, etc.

Many of whom, and their families, friends, professional associates, etc, travel back and forth to and from Cuba.

I'll ask them what its like to be travel banned. :eyes:

[MADem]

80. Sure ya will!

:rofl:

[Billy Burnett]

78. Accurate term by used Dr Mika. If the shoe fits ...

I'm Canadian and my Cuban friends in Montreal, and their families and friends, travel back and forth all the time. Often on the dime of their Canadian relatives nonetheless they do travel from and return to Cuba pretty regularly. This applies all over the place, except to/from the USA (unless they're "exiles").

Reading your insults (starting with your very first post in this thread) and your ignoring of the larger picture and contextual discussion is laughable. After reading this thread, your credibility on Cuba issues is in the minus column.

[MADem]

81. Well, I could say the same thing about you and your credibility.

But why bother? We know how and why you found your way here. Get in touch with me when Cubans can LEAVE their island prison freely, whenever they want to, without having to get an "exit" visa from the dictator.

Have a nice day.

[Judi Lynn]

70. Mika, I've heard about Cubans visiting their friends and relatives in Florida, etc.

for years, as far back as 2000, when I started paying attention to Cuban/US policy during Elian Gonzalez' captivity in Little Havana.

I attended a message board which was heavily used by Miami Cuban "exiles," their offspring, and ordinary citizens living in, or formerly from Miami, at the old CNN message board. I heard from a female Florida resident, Casey O'Hara, then, about the fact people in Miami were very accustomed to their Cuban friends, neighbors, etc. hosting Cuban relatives visiting for a day, a week, etc. She said it was commonly known, observed in South Florida.

On a message board at the Delphi system owned by Murdoch I ran across it again, when a male non-Cuban poster mentioned it, and a female Cuban "exile" battleaxe named Marinao, who still holds forth at the Miami Herald message board under that same screenname, confided in one of the other Cuban posters that her sister and her family had finally returned to Cuba after a lengthy visit.

Here's something which may add more information written by former New York Times journalist who co-authored the series with Larry Rohter on Luis Posada Carriles, Ann Louise Bardach, who has also made many trips back and forth to Cuba, like you:

In Cuba, one used to be either a revolucionario or acontrarevolucionario, while those who decided to leave were gusanos (worms) or escoria (scum). In Miami, the rhetoric has also been harsh. Exiles who do not endorse a confrontational policy with Cuba, seeking instead a negotiated settlement, have often been excoriated as traidores (traitors) and sometimes espías (spies). Cubans, notably cultural stars, who visit Miami but choose to return to their homeland have been routinely denounced. One either defects or is repudiated.

But there has been a slow but steady shift in the last decade-a nod to the clear majority of Cubans en exilio and on the island who crave family reunification. Since 1978, more than one million airline tickets have been sold for flights from Miami to Havana. Faced with the brisk and continuous traffic between Miami and Havana, hard-liners on both sides have opted to deny the new reality. Anomalies such as the phenomenon of reverse balseros, Cubans who, unable to adapt to the pressures and bustle of entrepreneurial Miami, return to the island, or gusañeros, expatriots who send a portion of their earnings home in exchange for unfettered travel back and forth to Cuba (the term is a curious Cuban hybrid of gusano and compañero, or comrade), are unacknowledged by both sides, as are those who live in semi-exilio, returning home to Cuba for long holidays.

Page XVIII
Preface
Cuba Confidential
Love and Vengeance
In Miami and Havana
Copyright© 2002 by Ann Louise Bardach

All KINDS of profound lies flourish in the vacuum brought on by enforced ignorance about Cuba. Propagandists can say absolutely anything about Cuba and only those (who travel without offical permits) willing to open themselves to harsh measures by the U.S. government will ever know what is real or not among the claims and charges, and only by sufficient time spent there in various locations, and situations in order to get a more trustworthy sense of things.

[Billy Burnett]

79. Hi Judi. Yes, I remember those posters and discussions you mention.

I also remember posting various stories on the original DU about Cubans visiting relatives and friends here in the US who then return to Cuba - of course that was before all of the US's axis of evil crap and the accompanying draconian visa processes were placed in action.

It is only in the vacuum of information (amid oceans of say-for-pay propaganda) that posters can engage in and get away with such vile demagoguery such as on this thread.

Hardly a mention that Americans are travel banned, re: Cuba, and American (as well as foreign) businesses are banned from doing business in Cuba by the dictate of the US government.

Next thing you know we'll be reading the oft debunked bullshit that Cubans don't vote.

[iverglas]

62. oh dear, I missed a typo

And when you talk about emigration FROM country "A", YOU ARE TALKING about emigration TO country "B", whether you grasp this or not.

Yes, you are right, I screwed up; the second "emigration" should indeed have been "immigration". Why, if I'd made that mistake during the many years I PRACTISED IMMIGRATION LAW, I would have been disbarred, yes I would.

If you cannot take a job "THAT IS OFFERED TO YOU" then you must be in prison. Or an iron lung.

Now, what you would be is NON-RESIDENT OF THE COUNTRY where you want to move. That's what we're talking about, you know? A citizen of country "A" who is not a legal resident of country "B" who wants to move to country "B". If you sincerely believe that you can offer a job to someone living in Canada who does not have a right of residency in the US and the person will just get a green card, or even a work visa, there's nothing one can say other than use your damned mouse.

Cubans can't leave.
People in refugee camps in Darfur can't leave, because THEY HAVE NOWHERE TO GO. If it's so easy for people to leave Sudan, why the fuck don't you just offer one of them a job????

[MADem]

66. You can LEAVE.

As a non-resident, tourist, whatever. And you don't know your NAFTA law as well as you claim. Very often the employer will take care of the work permitting. But that, too, is beside the point. A pathetic effort at distraction from the point. Which is:

YOU CAN LEAVE.

CUBANS CANNOT LEAVE.


You want to talk about Darfur? Start a thread on it. Fidel and Raul aren't running the refugee camps, now, are they.

This is about Cubans--who cannot leave.

As the youth say, FAIL. In a major way, too.

[iverglas]

68. I'm amused

And you don't know your NAFTA law as well as you claim. Very often the employer will take care of the work permitting.

Are these related thoughts?

NAFTA and immigration are mutually exclusive. I qualify under NAFTA. Obviously, anyone not a citizen of Canada or Mexico does not qualify under NAFTA. I could work in the US because I meet NAFTA requirements, if someone hired me. I do NOT qualify to immigrate to the US, because I do not meet other requirements (Hint: I'm too old, for just one thing).

NO ONE qualifies to immigrate to the US, or reside in the US as other than a visitor, on the basis of a job offer alone. I can keep stating fact, and you can keep stating loony opinion, and the facts will remain the same.

I can leave Canada, and I can come back to Canada. There is NOWHERE IN THE WORLD that I am aware of where I could go to and remain PERMANENTLY, under the laws of that country.

THE SAME APPLIES TO YOU.

You are free to leave the US and return to the US. You are not free to leave the US PERMANENTLY because there is nowhere you can go. Unless you would somehow qualify for permanent residence in Canada, for instance, which the vast majority of people in the US would not do, that is a FACT. It applies to citizens of just about every country on the bleeding planet.


You want to talk about Darfur? Start a thread on it. Fidel and Raul aren't running the refugee camps, now, are they.

Do you actually not understand the concept of analogy, and the purposes for which it is used?

If that's the case, why am I here ...

[MADem]

69. I figured you were amused. You think it's funny that they can't leave, is that it?

Because it's all just "free-dumb."

Ha. Ha. Ha.

[iverglas]

71. now I'm just disgusted

But then I have been all along.

[MADem]

72. Gee, we have something in common.

I'm completely disgusted at your willingness to ignore a rank abrogation of something you derisively call "freedumb" because it doesn't marry with your political philosophies. Screw the people of Cuba. They're happy prisoners! The socialist emperor is a totalitarian dictator. Quel dommage!

[iverglas]

74. smooch

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_VYsDeslNFIs/ScLj_Z5oGZI/AAAAAAAAHZ4/kFq8jJUBGko/s400/Emily+Forgot-big+fat+lie.jpg

What I call "freedumb" is your own ethnocentric self-absorbed usage of the word.

Here's something for you to ponder.

In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.

The first is freedom of speech and expression--everywhere in the world.

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way--everywhere in the world.

The third is freedom from want--which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants-everywhere in the world.

The fourth is freedom from fear--which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor--anywhere in the world.

If you were as concerned about those freedoms as that late President of yours was, you'd be screeching for the lifting of the embargo. Did I miss that?

[MADem]

75. You said it, and now you're trying to pretend you didn't mean what you plainly meant.

Good thing it's too late to edit. Your "Big Fat Lie" accusation is met by your Big Fat Post insulting Americans and their enthusiasm for "FreeDumb."

By your very own words we know you. All the artwork in the world won't erase what you said.

We have many "late Presidents," you know. Most of our Presidents are "late"--only five who have been office-holders are alive (Obama, of course, Clinton, two Bushes, and Carter). Most of or late Presidents, as well as the ones still living, did put a high priority on freedom, and most of them didn't "screech" about it.

A former lawyer, you say. Hmmm. Do you have the Norman Rockwell WW2 era illustrations for your heartwarming little sum-up, there, hmmm?

FWIW, the US Constitution is the "controlling document" for Americans. As a "former lawyer," you should understand a little something about controlling documents.

[antifreeper63039]

82. The freepers will be all over this

They'll cite it as PROOF that "socialized medicine" doesn't work, or something like that. What idiocy.