What is your take on butch straight women?

[foreigncorrespondent]

In my job I see a lot of people. And a lot of queers. But the one that always amazes me are these straight chicks who are hanging off their boyfrends arm, yet are more butch than some stone butch dykes I have seen.

Anyway, what is your take on these women? Do you think they are lesbians who are just fooling themselves or what?

And further, what about the guys these women are dating. What does it say about these guys to be dating such butch straight women?

And no offense to any straight women who might be butch, or guys who are dating butch straight women. This is just one of those quirky little things I like input on. :)

[autorank]

1. Ahem...

"And no offense to any straight women who might be butch, or guys who are dating butch straight women." Oh, I'm so fucking sure no one will take offense, no, none at all. This line is classic for any blog let alone DU. Such insightful yet faux naivete. You, foreigncorrespondent, are the superior craftsman!

[foreigncorrespondent]

6. OH please!

If you have nothing but insult to add then please refrain from commenting in my thread.

I happen to have been one of those women for 15 fucking years until I began living my life the way I was born to! I have a fucking right to this thread!

[autorank]

11. YO!!! READ the post again. Referred to you as the "superior craftsman"

Little touchy are we? ...and I wish you what ever pleasure you get out of living you life any way you want. I still think it's funny that you said you didn't mean to offend anyone. Or was you post just ironic anger?

[foreigncorrespondent]

16. Again you insult!

Please bloody well refrain from posting unless you have something worth while to add!

By the way the pleasure I get out of living my life the way I was BORN to do so, is simply living truth rather than lies! Being gay isn't a fucking choice, as you imply in your words!

[Kire]

27. I thought it was worthwhile.

In fact, I think any reply to any post is worthwhile.

Fire and brimstone is great too, so thanks for replying to the reply.

[HEyHEY]

2. My mom is one so I think they're fine

Mom's a tombo...even plays hockey at age 54 in a women's league.

[foreigncorrespondent]

8. Oh I didn't mean it that way at all HEyHEY!

I know a lot of tomboys myself, and in fact was one myself as a kid. Forget Barbie I wanted the newest Tonka truck on the market.

I just wanted input about what others thoughts on this subject is.

Good for your mum playing hockey! I wish at (almost) 37 I was still able to play some of the sports I used to.

[WindRavenX]

3. errr...

define "butch". It varies between people.

[foreigncorrespondent]

9. Ok butch as in NOT tomboyish!

I am talking a full on butch women who will dress in nothng but mens clothes, have male haircuts, etc.

[readmoreoften]

19. I have never seen a butch straight woman personally

And I'm a femme that only dates butches/transguys. I hear that many gay transmen never became butches, they went straight from hetero to gay transman.

I see tomboys and sort of androgenous older women alot. But a hard butch on a man's arm? Maybe they're butches playing kissy face with their gay boys?

I don't know. I don't see hard butches enough PERIOD. If I started seeing straight ones all the time I think I'd grow bitter, hehe.

[Jamastiene]

4. I know one that is a teacher

I had the biggest crush on her. Still do in all honesty. She acted like she was flirting with me at first, but swears up and down she is straight. She is married. I am a lesbian, so this may be a different answer than you expected. Anyhow, I normally am not attracted to butchy looking women. Normally, I like the Courtney Love types. Feminine, but without makeup and a little work, kind of a soft butch. I am crazy about this woman though. Would give anything to get to just spend more time with her. Her husband is a small kind of soft male guy, Repub too. She is Democrat, but questionable at times. I shouldn't talk about it too much. DU is my place to go to forget the reality that I could never have her. Damn, she is fine though. Like I said, I normally stay a million miles away from butchy looking women, but then again, a lot of the butchy women in my area are racist and proud of it and other odd stuff too. Like gay women who hate gay men. I don't get that and the mentality turns me off. This teacher though, wow, I like that. I can't figure this one out for the life of me.

[foreigncorrespondent]

12. Oh I understand your attraction to her.

Given that I am femme lesbian myself, who is attracted to soft butches (one in particular), I find myself in awe of some of these women I do come across. Only none manage to turn my head, because I have found my soul mate in life.

[Yuugal]

5. Lets be honest

They are all hot. If you are 20 and don't agree, just wait till 40..... ;)

[foreigncorrespondent]

13. LOL!

Well I only have 3 years to wait until I hit the big 40!

[davidinalameda]

25. I have 2 years and 9 months

until I hit the big 40

:cry:

[purduejake]

7. My take is that I don't care what...

their sexual orientation is. Does it matter what we think, anyway? If the people are happy in the relationship, why question it?

edit: I am not being critical of you because you obviously have nothing against these people -- I am just trying to make a point :)

[foreigncorrespondent]

15. I understand what you are saying!

But the thing is, lesbians are quite often accused of takings the wives of fundies and converting them to our "horrid lifestyle."

I never really thought about it much until recently after watching a documentary on fundies. And realizing how many I actually see in the course of a day while on the job.

Then I began thinking about myself as a kid growing up. Even though I am very much a femme now, I wasn't as a kid. I used to get around in daggy old jeans and my grandfathers gumboots. And had to play with cars and soldiers rather than barbie dolls and cooking sets. And I realized that when I grew up and decided that for me, I am actually a lesbian and need to begin living my life as such, that to a fundie when I went from being in a 15 year straight relationship to a (going on) five year relationship with a woman, that obviously it must look like I had been "converted" into the "lifestyle."

And it is because of these thoughts that I wanted thoughts from my community.

[Jamastiene]

17. I don't believe

in any way that anyone "converts" anyone to some "lifestyle". To be honest, it pisses me off when they say those loaded words like that. Number one, gay people live in the same communities, shop at the same stores, eat the same foods, drive the same vehicles, pay the same taxes, etc. as any straight people out there. That is no alternative "lifestyle". The idea of anyone converting, I fight daily with people in the south who believe it is about choice. I don't think so. Either someone is or they aren't. If someone thinks they "found out" they were gay later in life, I think they either lied to themselves up until then, or didn't know. I'm with Ellen Degeneres on the idea of converting anyone to "become" gay. There is no free toaster to win. There is no "contest" to see how many straight people can be turned.

foreigncorrespondent, you sound like someone I'd like to tag team with while fighting fundies on this topic. You really seem to know the facts from your posts. Bravo. Nice to meet ya.

[freeplessinseattle]

10. ok, so are all gay males femme?

if they were it'd be easier to pick them out, right? maybe that's why the stereotype of the butch dyke and femme gay sticks around.

I'm bi, for instance, and whenever I hear "you're bi, I never would have guessed!" I have to roll my eyes. butch gay men and more femme gay women hear this even more often, too, bet they have some good snappy comebacks...

[Jamastiene]

14. It's about stereotyping

The oddest thing about the teacher I mentioned in my other post is that she looked me straight in the eye and talked about how "freaky" she thought gay people were and how being around gay people "freaked her out", then she hugged me at the end of class. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry to be honest. She doesn't seem like a hatemonger, but she is definitely misinformed about who is gay and who isn't. I can't understand the stereotyping except that stereotypical gay women and men do exist. I'm definitely a feminine lesbian. No one ever guesses it.

[freeplessinseattle]

18. well sure they exist, but why do they even stereotype each other? (nt)

[readmoreoften]

20. I don't think 'stereotypical' is really a fair way to access

someone's gender expression.

Butches and queens are just more VISIBLE than femmes and butch men/bears. I get really sensitive about the whole 'stereotypical lesbian' thing, because so many people 'congratulate me' for being a 'non-stereotypical' dyke. And then they disparage my partner (who's hard butch) for being a 'stereotypical dyke.' Our gender expressions are as organic to our senses of self as our sexual preference.

I'm femme so I'm invisible.
She's butch and hypervisible so she's always getting attacked.
People hate genderqueer people no matter who they fuck.

[Jamastiene]

30. No insult intended

The point is that people do stereotype people. Just because a lesbian is masculine doesn't mean she is bad. It is just that people assume too much and they end up hurting people because they are closed minded about sexuality and gender. I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I usually am not attracted to the more masculine women. That was my point in my earlier post. Why all of a sudden was I when normally I like sort of feminine women.

[BigMatto]

28. oddly...

I'm attracted to them.

Chalk it up to personal preference, I like strong women who don't take any shit from anyone, who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty, and who aren't all mousey and passive-aggresive.

But, I'm gay... so, so much for that I guess.

[peacebird]

21. when i volunteered at whitman walker as a "buddy"

i met a lot of gay folks - some were flashy and some were "out, loud & proud" but there were just as many who i would never have "picked out" as gay.

i have also known some straight folk who "look" like they aren't, for whatever reason. stereotypes are just that.

i wish that people could just be themselves and everyone could just live and let live...

[sundog]

22. This is an interesting thread...

I cannot claim to be some sort of guru or Christ-figure who never passes judgment. I have not yet reached that level on the spiritual platform. Not even close.

I find this topic particularly interesting because there is one such woman where I live. I will share this story.

This woman has a position of considerable importance in one of the local government organizations. She is in her early 50's. She clearly has "butch" mannerisms.

I have a small restaurant, and she occasionally comes here with her husband for dinner. However, she also comes here for lunch with other women who she is clearly courting. (And I mean CLEARLY courting.)

Now, I live in a small town. It is basically common knowledge that I am gay. I am out. The community is so small, you can't fart without the whole local population knowing about it. I'm 34, and I have had to withstand a lot of bigotry because of my convictions (as we all have).

So do I have a right to feel a little pissed when she brings her "girlfriends" here... knowing fully well that she knows this is a safe place? Here I am, taking the heat, and someone else is riding on it.

Or maybe I need to step back & consider she is a woman who is not ready to make that step. Maybe I need more compassion.

Or should I get more pissed, since her marriage is probably part of her pass in the system?

[UncleSepp]

23. It's one of many possible combinations of gender, sex, and sexuality

One can be masculine, and be either male or female.
One can be feminine, and be either male or female.
One can be attracted to men, and be either male or female.
One can be attracted to women, and be either male or female.
One can be attracted to masculinity, and be either male or female.
One can be attracted to femininity, and be either male or female.

If you combine those, you get a wide range of possible attractions between a wide range of people. There can be feminine women attracted to masculine men. There can be masculine women who are attracted to masculine women. There can be feminine men attracted to masculine women, and so on, and so forth.

That's not even beginning on gradations of gender or gradations of masculinity and femininity. If you have a person who has female body parts but identifies with male gender, and that person is attracted to another person who has male body parts, identifies with both genders, and is attracted to both masculine and feminine women... who's gay and who's straight and who's bi here? Does it matter?

The idea that someone who doesn't conform to a typical convention of gender and sexuality is "fooling themselves" seems narrow-minded and regressive to me. I'm not saying that's your idea, foreigncorrespondent, or your opinion, but since you brought it up I will address it.

[One_Life_To_Give]

24. Why would I question what they are?

Since over 80% of Male to Female Crossdressers are hetero. Why would I assume anything different about the reverse?

[davidinalameda]

26. I went to high school with the butchest girl

that you've ever seen

and she always said she was straight--I think she got married after school

she became an electrician or something in construction

so I guess you can be a butch straight woman

just like you can be a fem lesbian

[arwalden]

29. I Have No Strong Feelings About Them One Way Or The Other.

[khashka]

31. I say cool

I like butch women. More power to them. I see too many women who are victimized and violated. To see a woman with true strength is wonderful. To call a woman butch is somehow not very nice.... but in this world women need to find their own strength... and when they do, oh man, they shine!

Men who date women like that? I'd say they simply have good sense.

Khash

[RumpusCat]

32. My mom is also a butch straight woman

I guess maybe she'd be like a soft butch. She loves doing home repair, installs toilets by herself, never was fussy about makeup or anything like that. She also cooks and sews, but is definitely less girly than anyone else's mom I know! She went in drag for Halloween a couple of times. And is happily married to my dad (who is a nerd artist type).

I love butch straight women and sensitive straight men, and every other sort of combination.

[mitchtv]

33. read"the circle of sex"by Gavin Arthur

late grandson of Chester. It provides a wheel around which he places 12 types in the continuum from the Don Juan type at 12 to the Julius Ceasar tpye(every man's wife and evey woman's husband) at 3 o'clock. at six you have the finnochio type at 7 the "bull dyke" and at 11 the lady chatterly type. It's the in the between hours, I find your example. Interesting , short read. I am gay, but have been attracted to several "boyish" woman.They, however, were gay also.

[Ellen Forradalom]

34. I have been at various times that stone-butch str8 girl you speak of

I'm kind of scratching my head wondering how to answer. I looked particularly butch when I was pregnant! I think I was trying to distance myself from the saccharine cutesiness associated with babies and motherhood. My look doesn't really signal any one thing except perhaps that I'm a geek. My loves are geeks too and love having a geeky gal they can talk to about computers and music.

[Bouncy Ball]

35. Sometimes I'm rather butchy

and I feel so straight. Sometimes I'm so damn feminine and I feel like a lesbian. Sometimes I feel asexual. Sometimes I feel butchy and lesbian. Sometimes I feel feminine and straight. Sometimes I feel asexual.

(For the record, I'm 90% straight. But my butchiness and feminity definitely depend upon my mood. I can be straight up butch or as feminine as they come. I love being a girl!!!)