Looking for advice: I have a good friend who I think may be in the closet

[Skinner]

I am not going to put any distinguishing personal information in this post, or explain why I believe he may be gay. I'm not comfortable discussing the specifics, because he knows about DU and may even read it occasionally. I'll just say he is a good friend, and leave it at that. I do not know if he is gay. For all I know, he might be straight. But when I consider the (inconclusive) evidence, the best explanation I can come up with is that he might be gay.

But I am in need of some advice.

Like all of my friends, this friend knows that I am very liberal, an active Democrat, a strong supporter of equal rights for all Americans regardless of sexual orientation, and a believer in the basic humanity and dignity of all people. In other words... He would have no rational reason to fear rejection from me based solely on the fact that he might be gay.

I care about this person a great deal. If he is gay, he is in the closet to many people he knows. I cannot imagine feeling the need to live a double-life, and I cannot imagine how it would feel to need to keep part of myself hidden from people I care about.

To be clear, I don't feel betrayed or left out because he may not have come out of the closet to me. This isn't about my feelings. My concern is for him. If he is gay, I want him to know that he doesn't have to live a lie. Or, even if he feels he must lie to some people, he does not need to lie to everyone.

So, do I approach him about this? If so, how do I do it?

Or would it be better if I did not bring it up? Is this something that it's better not to address? Is it better for him to deal with it in his own way?

If he's straight, I don't think he'd be offended by my bringing it up. I suspect we might both be a little embarrassed -- guys don't really talk about feelings so much -- but I don't think he'd feel any long-term anger or resentment toward me.

But if he's not straight, then what? Would he say "Thank god someone finally asked me about this!"? Or would he feel the need to go further into the closet, and devote more effort to creating the appearance of being straight?

I'm at a loss. This has been bothering me for a while now. Any advice would be great.

[Liberal Veteran]

1. My honest opinion.

You can make it EASIER for someone to come out by dropping a few hints along the lines of:

"I feel badly for those who feel compelled to hide in the closet because of fear. I certainly can't imagine a true friend that would not be supportive."

But when push comes to shove, I think actually broaching the topic of HIS orientation needs to originate from him, not you.

The best advice I can offer is make sure he knows where you stand in general, but don't try to force the issue.

[Skinner]

3. I am sure that he knows where I stand.

I am not shy about sharing my opinions, particularly on this issue.

I appreciate the advice about it needing to come from him.

[terrya]

2. My advice. Just letting him know how supportive you are....

of gay issues, of how it's important to respect other people regardless of sexual orientation. Exactly the points you made in your post.

Ok. My .02 time. I would NOT approach him about it. No, don't bring it up with him. Coming out is hard enough. This should be HIS decision entirely.

But it sounds like you're ready for it if he is gay and decides to bring it up with you.

You mentioned that he reads DU occasionally. And if he does, he just may come to the GLBT forum. If that's the case, and sees this post...he may be getting ready to talk to you. :-)

T

[Skinner]

4. Thanks for the advice.

As I said im my post above, I am confident that he knows my opinion on these issues. I am definitely ready if he were to bring it up. In fact, I'd feel relieved.

I don't know how much he reads DU, and I doubt he'd see this post. But you never know.

[swimmernsecretsea]

5. Let him come to you

That's good advice with most things that are of a private matter, and one's sexuality is. Keep lines of communication open, and be patient. Forcing an issue, or acting betrayed that one hasn't confessed his personal life is likely to result in your friend withdrawing from you.
I had friends try to pull me out of the closet before I was ready. All I did was deny, and act defensive. The fear of rejection is very real, and for good reason. I've had plenty of "friends" say that it was nothing, then stop speaking to me, or begin gossiping about me. It's hard to know who to trust. It may seem like a more enlightened age now, but descrimination has just gone more underground. It's covered up, excused as something else, hidden. And the person who is closeted may have so much to lose--friends, family, livelihood, professional reputation, everything that defines self.
Opportunities will arise to demonstrate your accepting point of view. Even if it turns out that your friend isn't gay at all, you've shown a side of yourself that makes you look trustworthy and honorable.
Good luck, and thanks for asking. Not enough people do.

[Skinner]

12. Thanks.

I appreciate hearing your personal experience, since it looks like you were in a similar situation.

[Duncan Grant]

6. I think it's about creating 'safety'.

From my perspective, the level of hostility and intolerance directed toward GLBT people today is at a 20 year high. The cultural/political message is: "you're aberrant, you're not equal, you can be cured, you're unlovable", the list is endless.

I know this is nothing new to you, Skinner. I mention it in the context of 'safety'. The gut-churning, painful anxiety of being a closeted gay person today must be a life of suffering. Choosing to reveal your secret is a very big deal; risky and unsafe.

Now to answer your question: no, I wouldn't ask him directly. It puts your friend on the 'defensive' - if he's gay or straight. If I were you I'd try to build the safety factor, slowly.

You could mention something you learn or read here at DU and how it affects you. You could organize a dinner party or some social event to introduce your friend to other gay people you may already know (no match-making allowed). You may choose to reveal something secret/intimate about yourself to your friend...

That's how I'd approach all this - over time, let it be safe to come out. :thumbsup:

[Misunderestimator]

7. I agree with that.

I was going to post that he should just come out and ask him, but now I'm not so sure. I know that I personally would appreciate it if a good friend did that, but I can't speak for others. And if he is in the closet, I am sure there are good reasons for him to be... having never really been there myself, at least not for more than 20 years, I have no idea how he would react.

[Duncan Grant]

10. I have a friend (gay) whose own brother wouldn't come out to him.

My friend (let's call him James) had a younger brother who knew James was gay but wouldn't come out to him.

James went to LA to visit his brother and found a copy of "The Advocate" buried in his magazine rack. So James asks his brother, "I didn't know you read "The Advocate". His brother turned 12 shades of red and stumbled through some explanation (I don't remember what it was).

About 2 years later, James brother 'came out' to him on the telephone. (!) When I think of the energy it takes to keep this stuff secret, - it's so damn tragic.

[Skinner]

14. I'm not so sure either.

I appreciate hearing that you would be put-off by a good friend asking. Sounds like "just ask him" is the minority opinion here. I was leaning that way before I posted my question, but based on the responses I'm thinking that might not be such a good idea.

[Skinner]

13. I think that makes sense. Creating safety.

We have discussed politics plenty of times in the past, so he does know how I feel about the issues here. I kinda like the idea of sharing a secret. Not sure what sort of secrets I have to share anymore, but I'll give it some thought.

[soleft]

8. I'm going to consult with my ex about this

He is a gay man who posed as a straight man to himself and others til his late thirties. I'm going to ask him how he would have felt about this at various stages of his evolution - how would he have felt if someone had spoken/asked him about his orientation a)when he was still in denial b)starting to come to some sense of self discovery - would it have been helpful to him, etc. c) out to himself but not others - you get the gist.

I'll see him tonight and post back later.

[Skinner]

15. I would like to hear what your ex has to say about this.

Thanks.

[soleft]

35. As promised, hope this is helpful

I will speak as only one can, from personal experience and what I believe
I've learned (so far) from my own coming out experiences and the
impediments as to why, when and if one chooses to come out and to whom.

As you've said, if your friend is not gay, then it's just a little
misunderstanding that good friends can laugh over some day (years from
now), so let's just assume that your friend IS gay, so we can get to the
sensitivities involved.

THE DO's AND DON'Ts OF OUTING FRIENDS
==================================

LET YOUR FRIEND COME OUT TO HIMSELF FIRST
I know that for me, no matter how evolved I knew my close friends to be, no
matter how much I knew deep down that I would not be dismissed or
shunned...no matter how much I knew that if I was rejected by a friend
because of my sexual orientation (then they weren't really a true friend
worth keeping that close)...there was still one very fundamental barrier I
had to break through first: I had to come out TO MYSELF.

Don't kid yourself...this IS about your feelings too. Otherwise you
wouldn't say "he does not need to lie to you". You SHOULD feel hurt on
some level that he hasn't shared a fundamental part of his life with you,
otherwise what kind of a friend are you? But frankly, before he can stop
"lying" to you, he needs to be honest with himself. Regardless of how he
feels about you as a true friend, you are a straight person who represents
a large percentage of his world who has fundamental issues with his sexual
orientation. His world is larger than just you and the decisions he makes
to come out or not will impact the rest of his life.

DON'T WORRY, BE HAPPY
No way could I have come out to my wife at the time, or to my best straight
friends or even to my son, until I not only realized, but truly believed
that regardless of the outcome, FOR ME...it was necessary to come out to be
a happy, content and fully functional and realized individual. I needed to
understand that being complete and whole was core to my well-being. And
that meant being open and honest with those I care for as much as they are
with me, regardless of the uphill battle and emotional scars that sometimes
result.

EVERYONE fundamentally just wants to be loved and accepted. For many, this
is even more of a core psychological need than it is a want. This thwarts
many in coming out ever.

Bring up topics of general life fulfillment: career goals, nice apartments,
pets, entertainment, etc. and how important it is for one to be happy,
complete and fulfilled. That life is short. For all we know, we only go
around this little blue pill once and why not be all that you can be? Do
all that you want to do.
Regret is a horrible phantom to live with. Get his mind thinking about
these things. It might lead him to making the connection to other parts of
his life that need to be addressed.

THESE ARE STILL DISHEARTENING TIMES
Those who have come out are in my mind some of the bravest souls on the
planet, given the base discrimination and intolerance that still exists
around the world. Gay men and women create self-induced segregated social
groups in order to protect themselves. We even have our own "sections of
town" in which we feel we can only be ourselves without jeers or leers or
bashing incidents. Imagine having to even think twice about holding your
partner's hand in public or pecking him/her on the cheek and you'll begin
to understand how this is still a core issue in coming out, regardless of
how ok YOU may be with it, your friend has issues with the world at large
that does not recognize you or feel comfortable with you because of their
own prejudices and priorities. How can he feel comfortable making that
leap at all?

True he may have no rational reason to fear rejection from you. But this
isn't about rationale. We don't live in rational times. If man were a
rational being, there would be no red states or blues states. There'd be
no straight bars or gay bars. There'd be human values, not family
values. We'd all just be happy and well and getting along fabulously.

3. DON'T SHOW UP WEARING A PFLAG BUTTON JUST YET
So he tells you he's gay or you pry it out of him. In his mind, he may not
be accomplishing anything more than just letting you in on a secret. It's
still a secret to his world. Possibly it's still a secret to himself on
some level. It hasn't relieved any great burden really. In fact, it might
just exacerbate your relationship unless he is truly ready. The irony is
that he probably cares for you as much as you do for him, which is why he
fears sharing this part of himself with you. He'd rather your relationship
not change than have it devolve.

BROADEN HIS COMFORT ZONE
He needs to know that he is 110% safe with you. That you won't damage his
evolution. I wouldn't try first to pull it out of him or ask him
point-blank. The sitcom method of taking your buddy out for a few brewskis
and you attempting a casual/sincere "dude...you know you can tell me
anything..." rarely works well. Five years ago, that would have clammed me
right up and probably set me back years in therapy.

Do you have other gay friends that you hang out with? Have you invited
your friend along (in a mixed setting of course) to see how you interact
with them? This might let him know in a non-intrusive way how much of a
non-issue this is for you.

I also wouldn't just extoll on your liberal views regarding sexual
orientation with him. Frankly it's more in the doing than in the
saying. Talk is cheap. If/when he comes out, THEN prove to him what a
supportive friend you are. Many a straight friend pulls away a little
after one comes out because of natural levels of discomfort or not knowing
how best to proceed given this new information. But this is the most
important time when he'll need to know and be assured that this has in no
way negatively impacted your relationship.

TOUGH LOVE
If it comes to a point where you really feel too much time has passed or
especially if you see a change in him....depression, drinking too much, not
hanging out as much as before, then you have two
approaches as I see it.

1. You can ask him point blank, face-to-face. Just to be asked in a
non-confrontational way is sometimes all it takes. If your friend is not
one who often tells white lies or changes uncomfortable subjects, this
might actually work.

2. Send him a heart-felt letter/email. Though this may seem like a
cop-out approach at first, it really isn't. It actually might give him a
necessary safety zone which he may need in order to process it all, and
give him the time to react and respond appropriately. In person outings
can sometimes backfire and seem unnecessarily intimidating and confrontational.

[Technowitch]

9. Leave him be. It's his decision.

I can think of no decision more private, and more personal, than the one to 'come out of the closet.'

If he's gay and wants to stay in there, it's his business. To force the discussion before he's ready will cause anguish and hardship.

Skinner, I am 100% positive you mean well. But I want you to ask yourself, why you feel you need to bring this up? What purpose does it truly serve? Just to satisfy your curiosity?

For your friend's sake, let it go, accept him for who he is--whatever the 'hints' and 'anomalies'. By showing unconditional friendship and support, if he wants to share this matter with you, he will.

In other words, learn to accept "not-knowing". Just be a friend.

(By the way, I write as a bi-sexual woman who came to her own realization and self-revelation, at the age of 32. It would not have helped to have someone ask me about my orientation any sooner, however well-meant.)

[Maat]

11. Sometimes I think that some of us are really anxious to show ..

our support for our friends. I just joined PFLAG (and the Human Rights Campaign, just before Ms. Jacques quit). I think that PFLAG provides much-needed support to the GLBT community, and family and friends.

I don't have any issues about my sexuality. I'm a 46-year-old hetero married mom - and a retired social worker (so, you know I feel the need to help and to DO something - I have to keep it in check). I see this Radical Religious Right activity going on, and I feel frustrated that I can't fight back on behalf of my GLBT friends. Sometimes I feel like forcing certain members of society to behave - and be friendly, accepting and helpful to ALL of their neighbors. But, again, I have to keep that in check. I have to be patient, and take non-destructive, affirmative steps to move my community (no matter how far I extend that out) forward. And I have to back off and let everyone make their own decisions about their life - on their timetable. So, my DU GLBT-er friends' advice (and anyone else's) help, as to how I can best be supportive.

I don't know if that helped explain how some of us who want to be supportive feel, but I hope it did.

[Skinner]

16. The purpose is not my own curiosity.

Yes, I am curious. But not so much that it is motivating me to ask about this. The purpose is just that I care about him. I think he deserves the opportunity to live his life like everyone else, and I was wondering if somehow I could help out.

[davidinalameda]

18. not much you can really do

you could drop hints but that could backfire and send him deeper into the closet

people need to come out on their own timetables

just be a friend to him in the meantime

[Skinner]

20. That seems to be the consensus.

I think that's what I'll do.

[davidinalameda]

25. and if he's cute

give him my email!

:bounce:

[BeeBee]

17. I don't have any more to add

than what has already been said here except to say that your friend is very lucky to have you as a friend.

[Skinner]

19. Thanks.

I'm very lucky to have him as a friend, too.

[sundog]

21. I would say

let him come to you.

From my closeted days, I know there is nothing more terrible than someone approaching you about something that you have not come to terms with.

There are good ways of dropping hints... you might even talk about the site & mention there is a strong gay community. Or if you have a gay friend irl, you might mention that. (Ex: "I went out with so & so the other day. He/she is gay.")

If you drop a few subtle hints, I think he will realize you'll be there when he takes that step.

You sound like a good bud. I appreciate the forethought. :)

[Dark]

22. He may know you're okay with gays, but does he know if

you're okay with having gay friends. There is a difference. Many gays who are in the closet, which included myself, get the impression (especially from the polls) that most people are okay with gays as long as they don't directly have to deal with them.

He may be afraid that if he tells you, it will cause you to constantly think that he's checking you out. That was one of my fears, along with being afraid of losing all my friends.

Being alone inside the closet is hard enough, but being alone outside and inside the closet is even harder. It took me several weeks to set a date and then several hours to work up the courage to tell my closest friend from school that I was gay, despite him several times saying that he was okay with gay marriage. I told him, and I was shaking right after it. I kept having trouble, being scared that once he knew, all my friends would know, and they'd all abandon me. And all of them were hard core liberals or libertarians.

But ultimately it's his choice.

My advice:

Some night, ask him to go out to a nice dinner (nothing too pricy) just you and him and talk to him. I'd suggest telling him that you've met many gay people on DU you wish you knew in person because they are so fun to talk to and spend time with online.

Or something like that. But make him comfortable.

Hope I could be of some help.

[Meldread]

23. I wouldn't approach him.

It is hard to give advice without knowing any details of the situation or anything about your friend and his personality. He may simply not be gay and you may be misinterpreting. Either way, this isn't something you should approach. If he wishes for you to know he will come to you, and knowing where you stand you will likely be one of the first to know if he is.

That being said, you have to understand what it is like coming to terms with being gay. I don't know where you both live and I don't know the type of environment that he is within. I also don't know if there are any matters of faith involved, however there is always society at large. Most gay people, when coming to terms with themselves, feel a great amount of shame and guilt in the beginning especially. Some of this shame and guilt can last for years and years.

This may seem odd to straight people who support gays and it may be something hard for you to understand. Fear, doubt, guilt, shame, and denial it all plays a role. There are many, many gay people who simply enter a state of denial. How do you think so many gay people end up in marriages that last for years and years, have children, and then suddenly what seems out of the blue they divorce? It wasn't as if they woke up one day and realized that they were gay -- they've known all along they've just refused to admit it to themselves.

If your friend is going through any of this approaching him could possibly make it worse. He might become paranoid thinking, 'Is it showing? Is it showing?' and go out of his way to sink further into the closet and make himself look and act 'more straight'.

It may also be something that he is just uncomfortable talking about, there might be some embarrassment involved -- a hold over from the shame and guilt he might have felt in the past.

Regardless all you can really do is be there for him when he is ready. Be a good friend now, accept him for whoever he wants to be, because this is something that he has to deal with on his own. More often than not we struggle more with our inner demons, our fears, our doubts, our shame... and then we look around after time has passed and wonder why we were ever afraid. We ask ourselves why did it seem logical then, but so obviously irrational now? It is hard to explain and perhaps even harder to understand.

Just don't forget that you may be interpreting things wrong and your friend may simply be straight and you are misinterpreting everything. If that is the case then this whole discussion is some what moot. All you can do is be the best friend that you can, and be there for him if he truly is gay.

[dsc]

24. One thing which hasn't been mentioned

He may well not be telling you so as not to put you in the closet with him. Presumedly you know his friends and family as well as him. Thus if he tells you he is gay but doesn't tell them then he is asking you to lie to them on his behalf. It is hard enough for us to keep our lies straight (so to speak) but to then trust someone else to do so is even harder. Otherwise I agree that is really does need to come from him. Nothing is more nerve wracking than being asked if you are gay if you are in the closet.

[queerart]

26. Just A Thought.......

He Might Not Accept Himself Yet.........

I have known guys that even the neighborhood dogs knew they were a Queer, but for some bizarre reason the person in question was oblivious to the very obvious..........

I was really the same way... I realized that I was Queer while married to a woman, who was 8 1/2 months pregnant with my child....

What helped me? Going to a Gay Bar... as crazy as that might sound....

If you make an excuse for the two of you to meet up with a "friend" at a local Gay Bar that is "slower paced" so he doesn't freak out, and go further into the closet.... that may help......

Then just let him bloom... try to set him up with a "friend" at the bar (other than yourself)... so he can go back "alone" and explore with out the stress of you being there to see anything.......

He may at some point afterwards.... share a secret with you! :-)

[Langley85]

27. Zero Pressure

I don't think you should just approach him one day and ask him if he's gay, because seriously, I know from my own personal experience that when someone flat-out asks if you like guys, even if it's someone you want to know and are sure would accept it, this alarm goes off in your head, your heart rams up into your throat, and you automatically jump about ten feet further back into the closet. At least that was the situation with me. Seriously, it's nerve-wracking.

Get him alone in a private setting and talk to him, and as you are talking, bring up the subject of homosexuals as casually as possible, make sure he knows you have absolutely zero problem with them while trying not to make it obvious you're leading into something. Maybe talk about how hard it must be to hide your gayness, etc. And just see if he chooses to confide in you.

[dsc]

28. One other thing

One of the hardest thing about coming out of the closet is the irrevocability of the decision. I can always come out tomorrow but I can't go back in tomorrow. Thus inertia leads to staying in. He may figure "Oh I can tell Skinner tomorrow".

[Meldread]

29. Let's also not forget....

Let's also not forget Heterosexual Privilege. We don't know anything about him, so he could technically be completely "Okay" with who he is, but just choose to keep it a secret from -everyone- so he can take advantage of Heterosexual Privilege.

Also, not knowing him, he may also not want to tell because he doesn't want any sympathy. You know, kinda like the Old Man who can't afford his medicine, who qualifies for welfare but refuses to take it because of pride. I don't know Skinner, but some (although not THAT many) gay friendly straights do tend to be... erm... not sure what exact word fits there, but they'll look at you as if your the most defenseless creature ever to walk the face of the Earth -- as if you're made out of glass. This to someone with a lot of pride could be seen as a bad thing. (Personally, I don't have a problem with it. It's almost like the crappy Christmas present, where you say "Well it's the thought that counts." :silly:)

[mitchtv]

30. tell him you ...er, love him as your good friend

I like the idea of meeting in a gay friendly cafe to go somewhere. Ask him if he minds meeting you there first.Then go have a good time.It would be your opportunity to let him know that while you are not gay yourself, you enjoy their company. Go no further.

[Stepup2]

31. I agree about leaving him to set the pace

It can be very frightening to be faced with an outing, no matter now well intentioned if the person isn't ready to deal.

I use the analogy of the butterfly in the cocoon in the book Zorba The Greek; ie tearing at the cocoon before he is ready to emerge can be damaging.

Give him time and love. One thing is actions often speak loudly to a person who has keenly developed survival instincts as most glbt people do.

He is lucky to have you as a friend. :hug: to you both

[Dookus]

32. Skinner...

"He would have no rational reason to fear rejection from me based solely on the fact that he might be gay."

It isn't about being rational - being closeted has to do with such deeply-felt fears and emotions that rationality really doesn't have much to do with it. I'm sure he doesn't fear you'd reject him - he fears (if in fact, he is gay) making the "final decision" about himself and his sexuality. Coming out is pretty much a landmark event, and there's no going back. I'm sure it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with him.

As others have said, just let him know you're supportive of gay people and be a good friend. You could nudge the process along with discussions of the politics of being GLBT in America, and let him know where you stand. But ultimately, it's a process he has to go through himself.

[Quetzal]

33. I am probably assuming that your friend is NOT active within the gay/pride

community. In other words, he does not participate in gay pride events, PFLAG, etc.

Perhaps one way you could show that you are not only 'tolerant' but 'accepting' as well is for you and him to attend a gay rights rally or march. He may refuse at first to participate because he does not want to be seen as another homosexual, but tell him that you are going because you feel that the rights of GLBT people are your rights too. If he still declines, then tell him you are going anyway and that if he wants to join along, he can do so at the last minute. If he decides to not show up, tell him about how great the event was and how the atmosphere was so "stellar" and "amazing". The next time a pride event comes around, he may want to join you in the parade or rally and will finally release the euphoria that he has been holding back for decades.

Sure, it is his individual choice to "come out of the closet", but a friend is there to help a friend when they are in times of great need.

And I would highly caution you against directly asking him if he is gay or straight. He may refuse to communicate with you.

Also, being liberal and a hard-core Democrat is not enough.

[BR_Parkway]

46. I would disagree on this one, had I gone to an "event", I think the

over the top openness of it would have pushed me so far back in the closet, because one of the things I was fighting with myself about was that I would be one of "them" - the negative stereotype that I had seen and heard growing up. I think many of us had to go through a progression - "I'm just curious, everyone is a little." "Well, maybe I'm bisexual".... and so on.

We are all a product of who we grew up as and grew into. Accepting yourself as openly gay in many cases requiring you to give up everything you've ever believed or were taught. Imagine if your parents sat you down tonight and told you that you had actually been adopted when your whole life up till now you didn't have a clue. It's even beyond that level of changing how you think about everything, adoptees haven't grown up getting beaten up or being the butt end of jokes usually because they were adopted.

Skinner, just about everyone else has said to let him come to you after letting him know that you are supportive and that you, in general, hate what some of the folks who are closeted have to go through - but don't rush it. Just be there, and know that the fact that you were willing to come and ask all the rest of us this question shows that you are doing everything that a good friend can do at this point to be the best friend to this young man that you can be. He's lucky to have you and you aren't shorting him in the least bit.

[xchrom]

34. do you guys talk on a personal level?

i don't hear how the two of you relate -- is it a real guy kind of thing and you don't talk about personal stuff or is it a more evolved kind of friendship?

for me that's what would make the difference about how to approach this.
the quality, the tenor of what exists between you now.

in approaching the subject, whether you're just mulling it over or what ever, you are asking the individual to hand something over that you could damage him with.
is that the kind of friendship you have{we're talking trust with love}?

maybe he is bisexual or questing -- have you talked about subjects like that?

i don't know if i'm making myself clear here -- but i would prefer an open approach{i.e. asking directly} depending on the kind of friend you are -- and leaving it alone if you not that close.

[Skinner]

36. Thanks for all the helpful responses.

I'm going away to visit my family this weekend, so I don't have time to respond to each of you individually right now. But I will get back to you, I promise.

Thanks. :thumbsup:

[Uncle Roy]

37. Go out club-hopping with him some Saturday night.

Have some fun. Keep it light. Have a few drinks and go out dancing. There must be some dance clubs in DC where both gays and straights hang out? Include a couple of those in your itinerary. Dancing tends to be non-threatening and "safe" sexually, and can be remarkably liberating. If the vibe seems right you might even ask him to dance with you! This could communicate some things at an emotional level that all the earnest conversations in the world could not do.

Of course, he might start posting here, asking advice on what to do about a dear friend of his who he thinks might be in the closet...

[Rowdyboy]

38. When I was in the closet, the thing I feared most was losing my straight

friends by coming out. I didn't dare endanger the friendships I had by telling the truth. Even though I knew intellectually that it wouldn't matter, there's still an instinct to just not take the chance-its not worth it. I LOVED these guys, for God's sake. I couldn't take the chance....

I must say, I read every word of this thread, and DUers offer exceptional advice on this subject. Frankly, I was stunned at the insight by gays and straights alike.

And you are an exceptionally good and sensitive friend to this person. There's no finer compliment I can pay.

[scottxyz]

39. So what if he's "in the closet"

(I don't mean to sound rude, but let's look at this from a broader perspective. I realize that Skinner means well, but there are some hidden, possibly harmful assumptions in the language and approach here that I'd like to bring out, so just bear with me. I realize that what I'm saying is all guesswork (just like Skinner's) - but hopefully you'll see the kernel of greater freedom and deeper tolerance and stronger privacy I'm trying to get at here.)

What if your friend had a foot fetish, or was into threesomes, or into "big beautiful women"? That would just be his private business, info he MIGHT share with a friend if he felt like it - but more likely, he'd only share this info with potential sexual partners.

What is so special about "homosexuality" that people have to "come out" about it to their friends?

In an ideal world, all types of eroticism would be accepted - but all types of eroticism could also be kept private. In a homophobic world, we end up getting this weird sort of "duty" to tell our friends about what we do in bed - or at least, who we go to bed with.

I guess if we had politicians on TV trying to deny civil rights to foot fetishists, then we'd all be wondering if our best friend was a foot fetishist, and feeling hurt if he doesn't tell us (or feeling there's something wrong with him if he doesn't tell us, or feeling like we could somehow "help".)

I don't mean to sound like Dan Savage, but it's really none of your business what your friend does in bed or who he goes to bed with. If he wants to tell you, then fine. If he doesn't, then that's fine too. Maybe he doesn't want to tell YOU about his sex life, that's all. Maybe he doesn't "identify" as a gay man, although he might be carrying on some perfectly healthy gay relationships behind everyone's back. The only people who really need to know he's gay are the people he's having sex with (or trying to have sex with).

There are many ways to be "out". It is true that there are many people who are "in the closet" and this can be very painful. If that's the case with this friend, then if he is going to be open about this, it will have to come at his own pace, and the most you can do is take the occasional opportunity to naturally, neutrally mention other people you know and like who happen to be gay. But let's remember that this friend could be gay and could still have OTHER perfectly good reasons for not telling you. For example, he could be seeing someone else (who you might also know) who can't or won't come out at this time, and your friend doesn't want to out them to. Or it could just be a question of "style" - there are plenty of gay men who just prefer to keep that stuff private.

Society's homophobia doesn't give you a licence to pry.

To illustrate my point, I did a search-and-replace on Skinner's post:

I am not going to put any distinguishing personal information in this post, or explain why I believe he may be a foot fetishist. I'm not comfortable discussing the specifics, because he knows about DU and may even read it occasionally. I'll just say he is a good friend, and leave it at that. I do not know if he is a foot fetishist. For all I know, he might not be a foot fetishist. But when I consider the (inconclusive) evidence, the best explanation I can come up with is that he might be a foot fetishist.

But I am in need of some advice.

Like all of my friends, this friend knows that I am very liberal, an active Democrat, a strong supporter of equal rights for all Americans regardless of sexual orientation, and a believer in the basic humanity and dignity of all people. In other words... He would have no rational reason to fear rejection from me based solely on the fact that he might be a foot fetishist.

I care about this person a great deal. If he is a foot fetishist, he is in the closet to many people he knows. I cannot imagine feeling the need to live a double-life, and I cannot imagine how it would feel to need to keep part of myself hidden from people I care about.

To be clear, I don't feel betrayed or left out because he may not have come out of the closet to me. This isn't about my feelings. My concern is for him. If he is a foot fetishist, I want him to know that he doesn't have to live a lie. Or, even if he feels he must lie to some people, he does not need to lie to everyone.

So, do I approach him about this? If so, how do I do it?

Or would it be better if I did not bring it up? Is this something that it's better not to address? Is it better for him to deal with it in his own way?

If he's not a foot fetishist, I don't think he'd be offended by my bringing it up. I suspect we might both be a little embarrassed -- guys don't really talk about feelings so much -- but I don't think he'd feel any long-term anger or resentment toward me.

But if he is a foot fetishist, then what? Would he say "Thank god someone finally asked me about this!"? Or would he feel the need to go further into the closet, and devote more effort to creating the appearance of not being a foot fetishist?

I'm at a loss. This has been bothering me for a while now. Any advice would be great.

This exercise in search-and-replace illustrates 2 things:

(1) Labels sound funny. Gore Vidal says there is no such thing as homosexuals - just homosexual acts. You really get his drift when you keep hearing the phrase "a foot fetishist" over and over again - as if that really defined a certain type of person. The label "gay" is just as ridiculous - but we've gotten used to using it.

(2) What our friend does in bed, and with whom, is really none of our business, and it sounds weird for us to be carrying on so much about it. In some twisted way, the "concern" and "tolerance" we try to show when obsessing over someone who isn't out could end up backfiring - and possibly reinforcing society's homophobia.

I know skinner is trying to be nice - but think of how all this hand-wringing must sound to a young gay person in the closet reading this website: all this protesting about tolerance and understanding could just end up reinforcing the idea that there is something dangerous about coming out. It all sounds so dire.

"I'm not comfortable discussing specifics." (sounds creepy)

"inconclusive evidence" (sounds legalistic)

"my concern is for him" (sounds condescending)

"deal with it in his own way" ('deal with' - as in 'problem')

"this has been bothering me" (sounds like a problem again)

And there are probably several young gay people in the closet reading this website. Skinner's message is not really the most positive thing they could be reading. I would prefer something more light and affirmative and - dare I say? - celebratory. DUers can be very heavy-handed at times. Sex is supposed to be fun - not frightening!

[Meldread]

40. Here is where I disagree with you.

I don't see homosexuality as an erotic fetish. I see it as an orientation. Would you call heterosexuality an erotic fetish? I wouldn't. I would also call that an orientation and I would also do the same for bi-sexuality.

The difference between a fetish and an orientation is that your sexual arousal does not directly depend upon that fetish. A gay man simply (generally speaking, of course) will not feel a sexual attraction to a woman, just as a heterosexual male would not feel a sexual attraction to another male. However, if you are a heterosexual male with a foot fetish you will be attracted to women regardless or not if they are also into foot fetishes. Your attraction to her might depend on the type of feet you find erotic but it's highly unlikely that you'd be attracted to a male (if you were a heterosexual) if he had the same or similar feet.

You also have to look at the emotional side of things. A homosexual wants to fall in love with someone of the same sex, while a heterosexual wants to fall in love with someone of the oppisite sex, while a bi-sexual person wants to (although for most it isn't 50/50 attraction) fall in love with a person of either sex. Someone with a foot fetish doesn't want to fall in love with feet. This is probably the largest diffrence.

Simply put, sexual orientation is much broader than a fetish and a fetish has to exist within an orientation.

This is where the whole basis for equal rights for homosexuals comes into play, the fact that it is an orientation and not a fetish (something that could be ignored).

Also, I think you need to give Skinner a bit of slack. You gotta remember that he is, after all, straight and it's hard for most straight people to *really* understand what it's like to be gay. (No more than a gay person could really understand what it is like to be straight.)

[dsc]

41. being gay is more than sex

While this weekend was a bit unusual for me, it isn't entirely out of line either. On Friday, Saturday, and today I did things that I can't tell people I did if I want them to not know I was gay and none of them had anything to do with sex. Friday was an art exhibit for a friend of a friend (among the art were pictures of AIDS demonstrations), on Saturday it was a birthday party at a gay bar, and on Sunday it was a meeting about gay marriage. Any gay or lesbian who is dating would of necessity be keeping a good deal of non sex related secrets to stay in the closet.

Where I will agree with you is that it is the person's choice if he wishes to stay closeted.

[Duncan Grant]

42. Whoa. How about a little empathy for Skinner?

After all, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Is it possible that you may have read a lot more into Skinner's post than was there? :shrug:

[xchrom]

43. that is wrong on almost every level

certain minority groups suffer from certain problems associated with their status in society -- i.e. african americans suffer from greater levels income gaps, native americans suffer from higher incidences of health related issues, etc.
for gay folk -- and young gay folk in particular -- higher rates of suicide for one thing.
that's not about getting laid -- that's about being able to express your self in the world as the human being you popped out of the womb being.
what do you think the marriage equality issue is about?
you don't go to somebody's wedding to applaud their sex life -- you go to applaud a new, positve aspect for their journey in this world.
that is the issue that skinner is talking about.
his friends ability to be complete and to share his friends joys and concerns.
and that's all he is talking about -- not if his buddy is a bottom or a top.
or has a jock strap fetish -- which what you are talking about.
big diff.

[Skinner]

44. I apologize for my prying, heavy-handedness, and lack of positivity.

Thank you to everyone who responded. I apologize for wasting your time.

[Uncle Roy]

48. Hey Skinner!

You posted a perfectly reasonable question, and got about 50 perfectly reasonable and supportive responses, and 1 that was mildly critical. That's not so bad. Even the critical one was pretty reasonable, though I thought his premise was invalid (I disagree with Vidal on this, too) and his analogy flawed. So ignore that one! It's not like you had Fred Phelps on your case. Don't get all pissed off and go away. Such a drama queen! If I could, I'd give you a nice soothing shoulder and neck massage right now, and have you purring like a kitten in no time. Besides, I want to know what happens with your friend. Keep us posted...

[Meldread]

49. Awww, Skinner!

Don't go away. We like you here, don't let one guy's silly comment chase you off.

You just gotta remember that even gays, as hard as it may seem (I know it seems impossible), have our share of people who we try and uhhh... keep from the public eye.

Does anyone know what happened to Scottxyz's muzzle? :evilgrin:

Seriously, stick around and don't let one guy chase you off with his comments. :)

[terrya]

45. Oh, ok. I just have a "fetish" Right, sure.

And I guess that the fight for gay and lesbian people to legally marry...same as heterosexuals...equality and all of that...is just a waste of time?

Not to sound rude or anything, but your post is one of the most idiotic things I've read in a long, long time.

[xchrom]

47. how can that be rude in this case?