My turnaround on gay people.

[Bluzmann57]

First, I should start by saying that I am a devout heterosexual. I really really like women. In fact, there are some who would say I like the ladies a bit too much. But that's another story for another time.
Anyway, I also have to admit that for many many years I just couldn't deal with the thought of gays being around me and wondered what was wrong with them. I also openly discriminated against them, told crude jokes and all types of other things that hillbilly types do.
But as I grew older and wiser and actually started to know some gay people, I started to realize that homosexuals are just like the rest of us, except they happen to love people of the same gender. Not as friends or siblings, but as married people love each other. And I thought that there is nothing wrong with that. The first openly homosexual guy I knew was the brother of a girl I used to date. She often sneered at him, as she was feeding her four children (none of them mine lol). I occasionally joined her, but after a while, I realized that he was just another guy. He had a hot rod, a '69 Mustang fastback, he watched football and understood the game more than most of my straight friends, he was a whiz kid at euchre, and he ate chili, etc. just like me and my straight friends. Eventually, me and his sister broke up and went our separate ways. I also lost track of her brother.
But I was starting to question why I had a "thing" about gays. And I came up with several reasons, chief among them being ignorance and fear. Fear of something different. I started to speak up. I asked why should gays be treated any differently than anyone else when it comes to jobs, housing, military service, and life in general. And I couldn't come up with any satisfactory answer. And about two years ago, a gay couple moved into a house down the street from me. They invited several of the neighborhood people over for a barbecue. The food was delicious, the beer was cold, the music left a little something to be desired, but we can't have everything, and there were only six people attending. Most said they had "other committments", but at least two residents just flat out said that "We don't want them in our neighborhood". The gay couple, Paul and Derek are still there and the two residents are either gone or soon to be gone. One guy said he wasn't going to expose his kids to "those" people, while feeding his grandchild that his 16 year old daughter gave birth to. I don't talk to the other people as they are rock ribbed righties and are not worth wasting my time on.
Paul and Derek invited me to a euchre tournament at a local gay bar and I accepted. After all, free food is free food. Not one guy tried to hit on me. Not one. Quite frankly, I wasn't sure whether I should be flattered or insulted. Anyway, I really had fun and plan to go back again. Not because I am gay, but because I am human. I like cheap beer and I like good conversation. The bar gives me both. So I guess in the last thirty years, I have come nearly full circle in my understanding of the "gay lifestyle". It seems to be people who go to work every day, who want to make car payments and house payments, and people who simply want to live their lives among all of us, just as we who are straight want. And to all the gay haters out there, whose business is it that two guys or two women are in love with each other and share the same bed? It ain't yours and it ain't mine. Just as it is nobody's business who I am sleeping with or you are sleeping with.
In closing, I want to apologize for ever hating gays. I know it was years ago and I have changed, but it was wrong to begin with and I think I am a better man for now accepting gays as "regular" people. Gays are as regular as anyone else. And besides, define regular.

[saracat]

1. Great post! I applaud you!

[monarch]

2. Nice post! n/t

[terrya]

3. I'm pleased to recommend this.

Nice post, sir. Thank you for coming in here and posting about your turnaround.

[Bluzmann57]

5. Thank you

It was just something I felt I needed to say. Hate is wrong. Hate is what got us into the mess we're in now. Well, that and greed.

[jgraz]

4. You'll be completely turned around when you can make this post

without the obligatory intro about being hyper-hetero. Otherwise, nice story! :thumbsup:

[Toasterlad]

11. I Confess, I Was Thinking That Too.

However, given the brother's background, it shows real empathy and intellect to be able to pull that 180 on gay issues, not to mention posting his conversion story in a GBLT forum. For awhile after I came out to one of my best friends (who otherwise was as supportive as I could have possibly hoped), he was compelled to counter every "cute guy" comment I made with a "cute girl" comment; i.e. "DAMN, Mark Wahlberg is hot," "Yeah, I guess he would be good looking. Charlize Theron is ALSO hot." He got over it.

Thanks for your post, Bluzmann. We need more people like you in the world! :thumbsup:

[jgraz]

18. I only say it because I was at that point once myself

I don't think most straight men even realize how frightened they are by homosexuality -- or how liberating it is once you realize that fear is complete bunk. Bluzman's journey is one a lot of people have followed.

[Toasterlad]

25. Very True. n/t

[PoconoPragmatist]

34. They Are MORE Frightened Of Transgender People!!

As a T, I can state this unequivocally.

The things that are said to and about us...the sick jokes, the cruel actions....oh...and it's all okay, because it is done to people like me...who aren't REAL PEOPLE...we're just FREAKS with no feelings!

[PurpleChez]

66. In most respects I've been a loony lefty all my life

but I'll admit that until relatively recently I had a real problem with transgender issues. It's not that I wanted to go out and beat people up or anything, in fact I would have been with the first people raising a ruckus if someone else had. I just didn't understand. The issues just weren't what I thought they were. But I was lucky enough to have a wonderful coworker who happened to be nearing the end of sex-reassignment surgery. She was very understanding of where I was coming from and she really turned my views around. I guess that's why I objected when I read the comments criticizing this or that about the OP's comments instead of celebrating the fact that there was one less bigot in the world.

[PurpleChez]

64. Right. My man was just making plain where he was coming from.

Sometimes I'm afraid that those of us on the Dem/liberal/progressive front actually seek out enemies and conflict where there might not be any.

[IronLionZion]

36. well there's also the fear that people might think you're gay

and that can cause straight men to tell offensive jokes and use gay as an insult and even act like assholes towards known gay people. There was a time when I felt that way but I eventually realized that who gives a fuck if anyone thinks I'm gay just because I iron my clothes, polish my shoes, and pluck my unibrow? I've been called gay for eating altoids mints after lunch and for having hair on my fingers and...(you name it and someone will say you're gay for it). Seriously, I don't think it's offensive anymore to be called gay but many do.

There is a strong undercurrent of that sort of fear running through the Republican party and on college and high school campuses. The GOP suffers from severe sexual self-repression, gay and straight, as well as the need for forced sexual assault...because they're scared and need to prove how tough they are.

[jgraz]

47. that's one of the cool things about all these Rethug "outings"

People are more and more tending to suspect rabid homophobes of being closeted themselves. The best way to show people that you're a secure heterosexual is to be comfortable with and tolerant of all sexual orientations.

[5thGenDemocrat]

62. Some kids across the street thought I was gay

Because I wear my tee shirts tucked into my jeans rather than loose. Now, some people like to wear their shirts out and vive le difference, but I don't believe there is any correlation between that choice and one's sexual orientation.
Anyhow, one thing my parents impressed on their children (way back when) was that what someone did behind closed doors was nobody else's business. You don't read other people's mail, you don't listen in on phone calls and you sure as hell don't look through keyholes.
I support gay rights because they are human rights. One's orientation isn't particularly any more interesting to me than, say, whether someone is right- or left-handed.
John
That said, I DO think that public displays of affection, much beyond hand-holding or a chaste buss on the cheek, is too tacky for words. Sweet-and-Sour Christ, get a room you two.

[PurpleChez]

68. Isn't it funny

that the supposedly straight people like the ones you're talking about seem to know so much about gaiety? I remember back in college...I was always sitting at co-ed tables in the dining hall, surrounded by as many women friends as men, but it was my male friends and I who were the fags, because we were involved with music and theatre -- or so said the frat-boy jocks who ALWAYS sat at all-male tables, inviting each other to come watch them lift weights, playing shirtless together at a moments notice. But they knew that WE were the fags. (Sorry for the word...it's what they would have said....)

[Bluzmann57]

74. Well, as I said, I am human

and as such, I am flawed. As are all humans. And to tell you the truth, if we were all perfect, the world would be fairly boring.
on edit- I guess I ain't perfect. I can't even type correctly.

[NMDemDist2]

6. proud to recommend this too n/t

[Not Me]

7. Labels are something that we use so we can hate people

without getting to know them first (BC comic strip.)

Civil rights for GLBTs will come about when people 'can put a face' on gays.

Thanks for posting.
K&R

[dsc]

8. great post

Thank you so much for showing why coming out helps us win the battle for our rights.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

9. Nice.

:-) MKJ

[stevedeshazer]

10. Why I am for human rights, period.

I'm straight.

But I have had sex with other men. (Okay, there goes any chance to run for political office forever.)

That's not the point, I'm just setting the table here.

When I was much younger, I was a minor punk rock star. My feelings about gays were not fully formed then, except that I knew that I was different from all the small-town stereotypes I had experienced. Try being a punk rocker in a cow town, you see.

After a gig late one night (late '70s), I was walking down the street. Some drunken high-school aged assholes in a pickup truck drove by and starting yelling at me, "Fuck you, faggot!" and tried to run me over.

Not content with missing me, they tried to chase me down an alley and beat me up. I ran faster then than I ever have run in my life.

That's the moment I learned that EVERYONE is a human being and is entitled to be who they are. Period.

That's why I stand for human rights. For EVERYONE.

Be who you are. It's your right.

[BillSam]

21. If you have had sex with other men you are not straight!

Call yourself bisexual, if you must, but please -- not "straight." Living a straight lifestyle -- marriage and kids etc. -- does not make a man who has or has had sex with men "straight" either. It just doesn't work that way.

I'm an out and proud gay man who has been (sexually) with enough not-so-proud homos (although I try to avoid them, but they're not always honest about themselves) to know that "straight" is often just a word.

Do you hear yourself: "Be who you are." Yes, you have the prerogative to call yourself "straight" if you must, but why do you feel you have to? What's so TERRIBLE about being gay or at least bisexual, huh?

For more info: http://jatgab.blogspot.com/2007/08/seriously-in-denial.html

[Toasterlad]

26. Oh, Come On, Bill...

I know MANY men who had sex with women before they came to terms with themselves, but now identify as 100% gay. MANY people experiment with sexuality in their teen and college years, with little to no lasting effect on their adult lives.

I know that you feel strongly that people in the closet need to come out, but sexuality remains - and always will - a very individual matter that you can't broadly categorize.

[DIKB]

29. I agree.

I've kissed other men out of experimentation/curiosity, yet there is that fundamental lack of attraction that makes me "straight." My brother may very well have sex with a woman, and he's even said so himself, but he is still primarily attracted to men.

The labels straight/gay/bisexual themselves are a problem, and society would be well to be rid of them.

[BillSam]

82. See what I mean

"Society would be well to be rid of them"

No Gay identity. No Gay Pride.

Sorry, this doesn't work for me.

Another one in denial?

[BillSam]

81. Oh come on Toasterlad

as I've said before, we are inundated with and pushed toward HETEROSEXUALITY almost from the moment of birth, and there is still an incredible stigma about being gay. Therefore a gay man who has a few hetero experiences in early life is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from a "straight" man who has some gay experiences, can't you see that? I've read all the posts and I just don't believe that a genuinely 100% heterosexual male has any need to "experiment," "satisfy his curiosity" or just fuck a few guys for the fun of it. Straight guys are more likely to think "so many women, so little time" the way gay guys think "so many men etc." Why does a genuinely straight guy need or want to have sex with another man?

Some men want sex with men but they don't want to give up those "hetero privileges." They're afraid they won't be seen as macho -- they won't be seen as MEN -- if they don't have sex with women, or lead a straight lifestyle. Jeez-- haven't you heard of the down-low? That's exactly what it is. Sadly, this attitude applies even to gay-friendlier guys who just can't take that step to identifying as gay or living an openly gay life even though on the intellectual level they may not see anything wrong, per se, with homosexuality. But on an emotional level ... Internalized homophobia runs very, very deep indeed.

I'm not just shooting off my mouth. I've studied, observed, and experienced these matters over many years.

At least Steve has admitted more or less that he's bisexual. That's a step in the right direction.

The fact is that there are far too many people these days who just don't have a sense of Gay Pride anymore, and that's truly depressing. All this "sexuality is an individual matter" is all well and good but it's only lip service -- and it doesn't help.

[Toasterlad]

110. The Problem is, You Want to Compartmentalize Everyone.

I'm 100% gay. I've never been sexually attracted to a woman in my life. Does the same hold true for every other gay man on the planet? Who would be obnoxious enough to say so? Who would say, "I don't care what you say, if you've ever fondled a woman's tits, you're not gay!" NO ONE would ever say that. How, then, can you tell people who are telling YOU who they are, that they're wrong and you're right? Don't you see how disrespectful that is? We don't want people interfering with our right to be who we are; how then can we interfere with another's right to be who THEY are?

Yes, there are some men who are just afraid to come out of the closet. But saying that every man who's engaged in a little teenage boy on boy action, however innocent (from all-guy strip poker games all the way to mutual masturbation) is at least bi is preposterous. Despite what they'd admit to, it's very NORMAL for boys growing to manhood to fool around a little bit with each other. It doesn't usually mean they're fucking each other, but they're doing things you would definitely categorize as gay. I have no data on it, but I'd be surprised if the same isn't true for girls. None of this makes anyone GAY. It makes them CURIOUS.

If you accept the premise that a majority of hetero teens have at least one same-sex experience on the way to adulthood (and you should, because I believe it's true. ;) ), why would it be hard to believe that there are some men and women who are still open to experimentation into their 20's, or 30's, or beyond? Just because it's not something you or I can relate to, doesn't make it impossible. Everyone is unique.

I know you want the world to accept gay people as people just like everyone else, but you can't get to that point by shoving people into compartments and declaring them GAY/BI/STRAIGHT. Human diversity demands more from all of us.

[Desert Liberal]

50. I don't think an experience or two makes one 'bi' or 'gay'

I've been with another woman, though just once. I was curious. My curiousity was satisfied and I found that I like penis much more than vagina. I don't consider myself 'bi' at all, though I'm not afraid to admit that I see some very beautiful women in the world. I don't want to have sex with them though. So I'm straight, see? Even if I did once have a gay experience.
My mom, on the other hand, waited until her 40s to admit to herself what she always knew deep down. She is now in a committed gay relationship, and is gay, even though she had many straight experiences.

BTW, kudos to the OP who finally overcame an irrational fear of what he did not understand.

:yourock:

[BillSam]

85. Is it different, perhaps, for women?

I bet when you experimented you didn't head out for the nearest lesbian bar for the express purpose of having sex with a woman, did you? You probably fell into it one night with a friend. I suppose a straight man could have a gay friend who might give him a hug, kiss, and hopeful grope and call that a "gay experience" (I wouldn't) but if a man goes to a bar or bath house for the express purpose of HAVING SEX with a guy, that is not "satisfying curiosity" -- that's being gay or bi. If he never does it again it may not be because he doesn't want to -- there may be other reasons...

I don't claim to be an expert on female sexuality, gay, straight or bi, but I think women are more prone to "experimentation" in this regard than men -- maybe because of the feminist movement, the fact that women are more naturally affectionate, and other reasons. And women don't have to worry about that foolish "machismo". There is, to my knowledge, no female equivalent to the "down low."
And perhaps, in your case, you experimented because your Mom is a lesbian. Good for her!

But it's interesting that it took your mother to her forties to come out as gay. I'm always telling conflicted people in their twenties that they could think of themselves as gay in twenty years (hopefully sooner), but sometimes they scoff. Yet it DOES happen -- a lot.

[Desert Liberal]

88. Actually, I experimented BEFORE my mom came out...

And as for going cruising at a bar, yes that's exactly what I did (but ended up with a long-time friend when I didn't find any girls I liked at the bar). I wanted to KNOW if all the crap I was going through in my hetero relationships was just because I really was a lesbian and just didn't know it. Turns out I was just with a hugely long string of butt headed men (well, all right, not HUGELY long, but 4-5 bad relationships in a row kinda wears on your psyche).

I think that men, if being curious, have just as much right to go cruising for the express purpose of sex as do women, and deserve the chance to do so without all the tags being attached to their actions. A man can be just as curious as I was but still not be gay or bi. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion for us, but I think the only reason men are less affectionate is because society tells them they have to be. And there is the female equivalent to the 'down low', it's just being undertaken by demure housewives, and women are pretty good at keeping their own counsel about such things. I know of at least two women friends right now who are living as hetero but enjoy their afternoon trysts with their 'friends'. Neither would call themselves lesbians, but they are most assuredly bisexual (or maybe outright lesbian). But 'that part' of their lives has nothing to do with the rest of their existence. It's sad to me because I know both would be happier if they could just face who and what they are.

Again, an experience or two, or just being curious, is not enough to make one bi or gay. Being gay means that you PREFER the same sex. Being bi means that you like both equally. Being curious makes you just that: curious.

BTW, Mom was raised in the South and such things as lesbians or gays were unheard of in her small town. It took her a very long time to realize that she was always searching for something in her relationships with men. Turns out, she was searching for a woman...In her late forties, she finally met a woman and fell in love with her. It was very hard for her to envision herself as gay, even though she knew it, I think, from the time she was very young. She thought it was an aberration, something to be stamped out and pushed aside. She did so by marrying two different men and courting as many as she could find when she wasn't married. I'm glad she married my dad, or else I wouldn't be here, but I regret that she had such a long road to travel to her happiness.

On edit: too early to spell...

[BillSam]

104. I appreciate your interesting, thoughtful reply

I'm intrigued to hear about the female equivalent of the down low. Isn't it sad so many men and women just can't come out completely and accept themselves as gay or at least bi?

As for the "curious" thing -- again, I can't and won't speak for women, but I just don't see "girl-crazy" guys heading out for a bar to find a guy to have sex with if they aren't at least bisexual. Maybe they're very low on the Kinsey scale. Who knows? We can just agree to disagree and maybe agree that nobody has all the answers. (Women on those idiotic girls-gone-world videos kiss each other and some of them may not even be bi for all I know, but you'll never see straight guys doing that, curious or no.)

I think your case of experimentation may happen to more than a few women who get sick of being treated like dogs by men and almost hope that they can find sexual and romantic fulfillment with another woman because of it (although this has wrongly been seen as the "cause" of lesbianism, which is nonsense of course) -- I think this is where the "feminism" comes in. There's no such equivalent for men that I know of. At least I've never heard of a guy looking for man-sex because a woman was nasty to him.

It can all be quite confusing, can't it?

Would love to hear what some lesbians on this board have to say about the female down-low and "curious" women? Maybe someone could start a new thread on this?

[whopis01]

69. he never said there was anything "TERRIBLE about being gay"

Your response seems to say that you feel he shouldn't even consider himself bisexual. You say "Call yourself bisexual, if you must". Why not let people call themselves whatever they want to call themselves and not give them a hard time about it. If people wouldn't worry about labeling others so much, the world would be a better place for all.

[BillSam]

83. It has to do with Gay Pride, mine and yours and everyone else's

It's about having Gay Pride, about being proud of being gay (or bisexual), not hiding your sexuality in shame. It's about facing the world and saying -- and this takes courage and guts -- yes I'm a gay man and I'm not second-rate or ashamed or less of a man because of it.

True, he never said there was anything terrible about being gay. But HE HAS SEX WITH MEN and says he's straight. That's an impossibility, sorry.

You're right -- People have a right to label themselves anything they want. But as an Out and Proud Gay Man I am also entitled to have my say, and to point out if I think someone is being dishonest --and ultimately unfair -- to THEMSELVES.

Over the years I've helped many people accept themselves as gay. I was slammed for it in my days with the Gay Activists Alliance (not by my fellow members, of course, but my homophobes and self-hating homos), and I'll be slammed for it as long as I'm alive. But I can't help it. I truly love being gay, and if I want to help others feel that same joy, what's the harm?

It's just that I'm meeting so many people today who just can't seem to FEEL GOOD about being gay.

If you label yourself as straight or bisexual because that's what you genuinely are, that's one thing. But if you say you're straight because you just can't accept the alternative, that's another.

Understand?

[whopis01]

101. I disagree

Being an "Out and Proud Gay Man" is not what entitles you to have your say. Everyone is entitled to have their say.

I am bisexual. I don't really view as something that I am proud of, nor am I ashamed by it. It is just a fact of who I am. Am I happy that I am comfortable with it and not afraid to admit it? Yes, of course, but to be proud of it would be like being proud of being white, or being proud of being a man. It just doesn't make any more sense to me to be proud of it than it does to be ashamed by it.

I agree that it is strange to follow "I'm straight" with "But I have had sex with other men". However, I would assume (and I realize I am making an assumption here) that he has had (and still does) have sex with women. By your reasoning, that clearly would make it impossible for him to be gay. (I'm making that assumption based on the fact that the sex with men was past tense and the straight was present tense). It is clear from your statements that you would prefer that he consider himself gay, as opposed to bisexual. Statements such as "call yourself bisexual, if you must, but please -- not 'straight'" and "What's so TERRIBLE about being gay or at least bisexual" clearly indicate this. Why do you refer to it as "at least bisexual" as if it is some sort of compromise to be reached if he won't call himself gay? Why should bisexual be ranked any less than gay?

Finally, I can't speak for this case in particular, but in general I would disagree with the notion that a man who has had sex with men can not be straight. The reason for this is that I have known a couple gay men who had sex with women in the past, but would in no way associate with being straight or bisexual now. When they were young and trying to understand their sexuality in a world that generally wants to repress anything but straights, they had sex with women because it was what they thought they were supposed to do. It wasn't what they wanted or what they were, it was just what they did. That certainly did not make the straight or bisexual in my opinion.

Having sex with someone is not what makes you gay, bisexual or straight. Were you not gay until you had sex with another man?

Do you understand?

[BillSam]

105. It just isn't the same

because of the "unequal playing field" I mention.

In our society we are pushed to be hetero and gay relationships are disdained.

Hetero relationships are not disdained and are often applauded.

Yes, a gay man who has sex with women on occasion, especially in the past, is probably not straight or even bisexual. But most gay people experiment because THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE PRODDED BY PEERS AND SOCIETY TO DO.

However, straight people get NO SUCH PRESSURE to try gay sex or gay relationships. In fact, they risk being stigmatized if they do.

Which is why I don't believe that any man who goes out of his way to have sex with another guy is entirely straight.

Haven't you heard of the down-low? Of men who have, desire, NEED to have sex with men but don't want to give up their heterosexual privileges?

I can't say this any -- no pun intended -- straighter than that. (See my post 81 for more details.)

Let's just agree to disagree, okay?

Months ago there was a thread entitled "Are gays and bisexuals compatible?"

No, in some ways we really aren't.

When I say I'm Gay and PROUD I mean very much that I'm NOT ASHAMED of being gay. I don't need to say WHITE AND PROUD because there's no stigma attached to being Caucasian. (I would think the difference would be obvious.)

Again, let's just agree to disagree.

Peace to you, too!

[xchrom]

117. you are being narrow minded -- to the point of bigotry.

i am gay -- all gay -- but in my twenties i had an extended affair with a woman -- had sex with women in high school -- had a lesbian fuck buddy in -- well -- i'm not telling my age.

all of those relationships i had -- i had knowing full well i was gay -- all gay.

but human experience can allow for variations of all sorts -- and when you need to get laid -- gender isn't always going to matter.

bi-sexuality isn't about experimenting -- experimenting is just that experimenting.

bi-sexuality is about real attraction on a continuum scale -- i.e. not every bi-sexual is 50/50 -- some are 90/10 0r 60/40 -- and so on -- but they KNOW that a part of them is bi. just like i know i'm gay.

open your mind -- and listen a little bit -- it won't hurt.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

116. Thank you

I knew if I kept reading down-thread I'd see someone who had the same reaction to that post as I did. :)

[stevedeshazer]

70. Well, I don't happen to feel at all repressed

I'll concede that I'm not entirely straight, and if that isn't enough I suppose I'm a bisexual technically.

The context was me being around some gay guys I was very good friends with and being curious. I enjoyed it, but I prefer the opposite sex.

Suggesting I'm a repressed gay man just isn't the case. In fact, it reminds me sort of the reverse of those right wing groups who "cure" homosexuals and make them straight!

I'm quite comfortable with who I am sexually and talking openly about it. That doesn't sound repressed to me. I will say I'm sympathetic to your concern because we both know there are are a lot of closeted gays. I just don't happen to be one of them.

[BillSam]

84. Thank you for your polite and reasonable response

The Kinsey scale says that someone who is a "1" on the scale can be predominantly hetero and incidentally homo. A Number "2" means predominantly hetero and more than incidentally homo.

You might be a 1 or 2, but yes, I would say you are bisexual, not straight.

I try to be open-minded on the bisexual issue, but it would certainly help if we lived in a world with an equal playing field -- where gays and straights (and their sexuality and lifestyles) were equally accepted. This is why I always wonder if a bisexual who prefers the opposite sex does so because that's really what he prefers, or simply because he'll be less stigmatized, feel like "more of a man," and so on. I've no doubt that some bisexuals aren't sure themselves.

If you're having sex with men, you are definitely not "repressed."

(To further confuse the issue, there are many who feel the Kinsey scale is unrealistic and out of date, that it doesn't take the "stigma" I mentioned into account. That plus the fact that Kinsey himself comes off much more as a married homosexual than a bisexual.}

But let's save that for another thread -- hopefully in the year 3000!

I confess I relate better to 100% gay-friendly straight guys than to bisexual men who are or at least think they are predominantly hetero, because I don't expect straight guys to have Gay Pride. But if a man has sex with men yet has no real Gay identity or pride -- well, it's just harder for me to relate. That's just the way it is. Probably you feel the same in reverse.

Peace!

(And consider it might not be so bad to have a guy for a life time partner, maybe?)

[stevedeshazer]

102. See, that's the thing I don't get

I don't understand why you think I would be down on having a guy as a life partner. I'm not, it's just not for me.

I have a civil union with a woman who has been my partner for 26 years. 21 years ago, we got "married". Not in a church, but at a county office, where a short lady in tennis shoes stamped a piece of paper and made it legal.

Funny thing is, my male partner for the previous three years was my best man! And, he has had sex with my wife, too. We're all good friends, though we don't see him often these days.

This has been a great dialogue, and one that I appreciate. It shows that there is a whole 'nother level of complexity in human sexuality, and the fact that we're talking about it is very, very good.

On edit: I'd also like to add that my partner/wife and I have a son. His godfather is a gay man in a committed relationship, and we trusted the both of them to raise our son should something happen to us. He's 19 now, so it won't happen, but it was never a problem for us.

[BillSam]

106. Okay, I'm curious

about the male partner you had for three years. Do you mean you were in a gay relationship, had a male lover?!!! Now I confess I'm completely confused unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying. If I'm not then this is proof positive that people often define their sexuality simply by who they're with -- if you have a wife then you're "straight" even though you have multiple male sex partners. (NOT talking about you here but about some of the married homosexual men I have met and been with over the years.)

What happened? Did you fall out of love with the guy and next happen to fall in love with a woman (which can apparently happen this way or in reverse with bisexuals?) Did your wife know that you had been lovers with a man for three years before she married you? Afterward? Is she also bisexual to some extent? (May I say here that being bisexual apparently means you can fall in love either with a man or a woman. But you don't stop being bisexual just because you settle on one or the other. You may only have sex with your wife, but you're still bisexual. If I'm wrong the bi's on this board will correct me.)

Did this guy also wind up with a woman? If he was your best man he was either the most "understanding" guy in the world or just didn't care that much. I guess he was bi, too, but --- three years together!!! That's just not "straight." It took you guys THREE YEARS to realize gay life wasn't for you -- huh? I admit I just don't get it!

Steve, I'm honestly not putting you down or being facetious, I'm just trying to wrap my mind around this. A three year relationship goes way beyond "curiosity."

26 years ago the Modern-Day Gay Rights movement had been in swing for over a decade but AIDS was cutting its deadly swathe. Did that have anything to do with this?

(OH -- you meant BUSINESS partner of three years! Phew -- you had me going there!)

Seriously, what's going on here?

Maybe the "problem" is that many people only use the word "gay" or "homosexual" to describe people in committed same-sex relationships (I only use "gay" for out and proud individuals myself) but there are single homosexuals and married homosexuals as well (some of whom call themselves "gay," at least to their gay friends if not to the wife) and others who would be in same-sex relationships if they only had the courage.

I agree that a dialog is very good. Because I am CONFUSED.

[Siyahamba]

12. It takes a strong person to apologize.

Thank you.

[CurtEastPoint]

13. Make this required reading! Great post, buddy!

Thanks...it made my day.

[MLFerrell]

14. Holy Christ, you play Euchre?

You have to be from WV, PA, OH, or MI.

I refuse to believe you if you tell me otherwise.

Here's the question, 7s and 8s, or no?

[RaleighNCDUer]

35. Or Iowa. There's been some drift south from MI.

My folks played it, but I never picked it up.

[agtcovert]

51. You left out Indiana. n/t :)

[evilkumquat]

61. Damn Straight!

If it weren't for all the cable networks goozing over Texas Hold'em, there'd be a hell of a lot more euchre playing in the Hoosier state!

Evil Kumquat

[evilkumquat]

60. 7's and 8's...???

What are you? A commie?

:)

Evil Kumquat

[5thGenDemocrat]

63. 7s and 8s...???

OPEN FIRE!!!
John
There are some things up with which we shall not put.

ON EDIT: Is "Ace No Face" grounds for a misdeal or is the holder just a whiny titty baby?

[evilkumquat]

79. Ace-No-Face, 9-10 Trade-In & Partner's Best

All BANNED from our rule book in my circle of friends!

At one time, we played them all, but a) one of us was caught cheating (tossing in their hand with a face card hidden within the lowbies), b) Partner's Best resulted in WAY too many "Going Alone" moments, and c) Ace-No-Face is just plain girly.

Evil Kumquat

[MLFerrell]

89. Ah, so you play the REAL Euchre.

Nice to see that we here in WV aren't the only ones...

Have you ever played Rabbit?

[evilkumquat]

90. You Got Me There...

I have never heard of 'Rabbit'.

Well, OF COURSE I have heard of 'rabbits', but not in the euchre setting.

Evil Kumquat

[MLFerrell]

95. Rabbit is a game like Euchre...

Jacks are high, there's a trump suit, but unlike Euchre, there are no nines in a deck, only three people play, and you bid on how many tricks you'd take given the opportunity to name trump. There's a two card kitty, and bids have to start at 3 tricks. Scoring is as follows. A bid of 3, 4, or 5, if made, gives 3, 4, or 5 points. A bid not made subtracts 3, 4, or 5. Any trick won by any player counts as a point. For example, If I call 4, get my four, and the other two players each get one, they each get a point.

The special case is a bid of 6, called "rabbit", hence the name of the game. A bid of 6 wins 12 points if made, but loses twelve points if not made. Rarely, a situation will arise where a player can call "double rabbit" after another player has called rabbit, which is worth 24.

You play the game to 24, and have to win on a call, i.e. you can't pick up an extra trick to win.

It's a great alternative to Euchre when only three people who know how to play Euchre are around.

Hell, I like betting on Rabbit more than Euchre, because it takes the element of a possibly shitty partner out of play.

If you want to know more about this awesome game, PM me.

MLF

[Bluzmann57]

75. Iowa

on the Mississippi River.

[Fearless]

15. Thanks for sharing

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Maat]

16. Great story.

Out here in SoCal, my family members are joining the "Straights for Equality" campaign, run through Equality California and PFLAG. We are committing to getting the word out to watch videos showing people the truths that you speak.

Maybe they should say that I, personally, am part of "Grouchy Middle-Aged Ladies for Equality." HeeHee.

[Maraya1969]

17. "The Holiest place on earth is where an ancient hatred has become a present love"

The Course in Miracles


You just made my heart sing. :hug:

[ruggerson]

19. Cheers, Mate!

Thanks for the good tale. You've got a rock solid soul.

[Divine Discontent]

20. hey... like

thanks! :)

and I'm a wiz about baseball stats and music lyrics, but yeah, I tend to gravitate heavily to the pop adult sounds, but I am known to rock to some scorps, dokken, zeppelin, or queensryche now and again...

but we're all very similar and I'm so happy to read this from you!

thank you and God bless...

[BillSam]

22. Nice post -- but it will be interesting to see what happens

if a guy ever does come on to him. Or if someone assumes he's gay because he's in a gay bar. I often find that's the ultimate litmus test for gay-friendly straight guys -- how they handle it when that happens -- if they get all offended, hostile or grossed out if someone thinks they're gay. Or if they're okay with it. The more secure ones generally are.

Otherwise, I think gay-friendly straight guys are cool. Wish there were more of them (but not TOO many of them in gay cruise bars please (an unlikely scenario, admittedly) -- you want to know who to hit on and who to leave alone so you can avoid those awkward moments!)

[Wiccan Warrior]

23. The really funny thing is

that all actually of my gay-friendly straight friends that I have are so comfortable with it that they jokingly hit on me, make gestures at me in fun and sometimes say come sit next to me baby I'll keep you warm, but I handle it by saying that I have better taste then that..they get a kick out of that, but the funny thing is I was in a bad moment of my dating time and a close straight friend of mine sat with me and we talked about it and I told him that he was everything in a man I wanted, but him being straight put a wrench in it lol. And surprisingly he took that as a great compliment and told me that if he was at all gay or interested in exploring that avenue that I would be the first one he would come too? Now how would you take that? lol

[Danieljay]

59. this 'straight' guy finds it flattering, if its respectful, though I must admit

as 'straight' as I show up in the world as my preferred preference, I've had a couple 'man' crushes. Its interesting, I brought this up recently to my spiritual director (who happens to be gay), that my wife had mentioned that a particular singer that I'm fond of was "hot" when she saw his picture, and that I actually thought he was too.

Now, even considering myself a heterosexual with a very open mind, I got all tripped out saying this out loud to both my wife and my Spiritual Director, complete with blushing and an adrenaline rush. Its fascinating that as open minded as I consider myself regarding gays and lesbians, I still was uncomfortable expressing my attraction openly, even to my wife or a gay man. Its is sooo engrained in our psychology that even the most open minded are uncomfortable with such attractions.

His response, "don't write stories about what it means or doesn't mean. It doesn't mean your coming out of the closet, it means you are coming into your own acceptance of who you are" meaning, all of me, the 90% of the time I identify as 'straight' and the other 10% as gay or lesbian.

[Toasterlad]

78. One of My Favorite Seinfeld Quotes

"You know, just admitting a man is handsome doesn't necessarily make you a homosexual."

Are you saying you can see that this man is attractive, or are you saying that you are attracted to this man? It's one thing to watch a singer perform and say to yourself, "He's a handsome man." It's quite another to fantasize about him dragging you onstage and bending you over the drum kit. :headbang:

"Not that there's anything wrong with it, of course." :hi:

[Danieljay]

80. i'm saying he's attractive, and I'm a bit attracted toward him. And, I still consider myself

predominately straight, with an occassional attraction.

As far as being bent over the drum kit, not likely nor had I considered it.

There is also a double standard among men. Many men find it acceptable and actually a turn on if their wife/partner is attracted to another woman, and that its somehow ok with them, while they 'act' repulsed if the tables were actually turned. Homophobia cuts a deep rut into the pschology of men.

[BillSam]

86. You're probably a 1 or 2 on the Kinsey scale

if you buy the Kinsey scale, so don't worry about it. Not that you would.

If you're higher up the scale then maybe your wife should worry about it!

Seriously maybe you should just go to a gay bar and pick somebody up and see what happens. You might be, as many guys say they are, predominantly straight, or you might be gayer than you think.

But, if you're totally honest with yourself, you must know by now if you WANT to have sex with a man.

If you honestly do not find the thought of making love to a man appealing in any way -- even if you find this guy "attractive" -- then you're probably essentially straight. I think the big thing is if you really, really want to have sex with a guy. Those are the guys I'm cynical about and have a tough time thinking of as "straight" -- guys who regularly seek out men to have sex with (despite the wife and kiddies) -- and they are legion. You could be subconsciously repressing yourself because of the stigma, of course, but maybe not. I mean how strong is your attraction -- do you fantasize about making love to the guy? Jerk off over his picture in private?

Anyway, don't worry about it. Even if it turns out you're gay, Gay is Great! All things work themselves out in the end.

[Danieljay]

92. hey, thanks Bill. I think. I'm actually not struggling here.

Like you said, I'm old enough and honest enough about who I am sexually and I'm not interested in sex or relationship with another man. Just wouldn't work for me. And no, my fantasies are about 90% as straight as my reality. As far as the other 10%, they are fine and fun by me.

[Dragonbreathp9d]

24. sounds quite like my turnaround

except mine happened when I found out my cousin was gay

[myrna minx]

27. Thank you posting this.

:applause:

[ejbr]

28. What a refreshing post

I equate it to those racists of the fifties who by the seventies realized that blacks are no worse nor better than anyone else. Thank you for being the first person I have seen go through this transition.

Good for you! Doesn't it feel great not to be angry at somebody or something for no valid reason? Serenity....aaaaahhhhhhh.

[Zuiderelle]

30. Thanks, that's a great account.

I really appreciate your turnaround. One small piece of advice, describing gay people as "gays" can come across as demeaning and insulting. Better to say "gay people", "gay Americans", "gay citizens", but don't use "gay" as a noun, it's an adjective in my book.

Again, congratulations on your enlightenment, and thanks for sharing your story.

[Tanuki]

31. Next you can work on your cheap shots and stereotyping of "hillbilly types"

I say this as one who hails from West Virginia and now lives in Tennessee. It gets old, my friend.

[mslawstudent]

32. My condo has like 5 gay men in it

Out of about 40 rented units. Its great they attract single women and it skews the ratio.
More gay men= Less competition

[PoconoPragmatist]

33. Now If Only More Would "Turn Around" Regarding TRANSGENDER PEOPLE....

I am sick and tired of being the new group that its okay to hate on and discriminate against in this country.

The group it's okay to make sick and hurtful jokes about.

Wake up...we're humans, too!!

even here at DU, there is a hell of a lot of hurtful, crude, and obnoxious things said to and about transgender people, and it really pisses me off.

Does it REALLY matter to you what we have or do not have under our pants?

Sometimes...some people say and do such hurtful things that all I can do is cry uncontrollably. Does it make people feel good to know how badly they have hurt someone else?

[Larissa238]

44. I'm a turnaround!

I was thinking about making a similar post on my journey towards accepting transgender people. I used to be scared of them, and now I have a couple (online) friends who are trans and I have no problem with them. They are people too, and they need the same support as everyone else.

[PoconoPragmatist]

45. Bless You. If Only there Were More Larissa's In The World...Or Even On DU!!

Can't begin to tell you how hurtful it is when people around here refer to Ann "The Man" Coulter. They think they're funny. It hurts.

They tell a joke that's sick and crude...or insult someone by referring to them in feminine form. They think they are funny. It hurts.

Bud Light makes their nasty commercials. They think they are funny. It hurts.

etc, etc, etc.

[racaulk]

48. You're absolutely right.

I wish a lot more people would become more enlightened about their transphobia, including some DUers. Bigotry is wrong, no matter what form it takes.

[Tyo]

37. Thank you! Great post. n/t

[pingzing58]

38. I admired your line: ...because I'm human. True, it's about being human and life in its fullness.

[blayne]

39. The times, they are a changin'

Thanks for your post. I think the more and more that gay issues are in the news, on TV, and just come up in regular conversation helps turn the tide. Unfortunately you were probably like most people when you were little and were raised thinking gay people were not normal or acceptable. I'm gay and my mom is the best mom a gay person could have, but I still didn't want to be gay. Mom wouldn't have cared, but what would everyone else say? Then I realized it wasn't a choice and decided to make the best of it.

And yes we are a very diverse group. Tonight at 6:30 I will be watching my Dallas Cowboys hopefully converting more plays in the red zone than they did last year in their first preseason game against the Colts while drinking Coors Light. However, I will be putting salt and lemon in my beer.

[Desert Liberal]

53. Ewwwww, the Cowboys?

tee hee hee! ;)

[Toasterlad]

54. I REALLY Agree With You.

And the Coors Light makes it worse. Who said all gay guys have good taste? Everyone knows it got's to be Miller Lite. ;) :beer:

[blayne]

55. I'm sticking by the Cowboys, but

I do agree with you about the Coors Light. That is why I have to doctor it up. I would prefer a Sam Adams or a good German wheat beer, but on game night and the golf course, Coors seems more appropriate.

[Toasterlad]

57. You'll Need Plenty Of It Watching Owens Drop Romo's Passes, My Friend!

Luckily, your misery shouldn't extend beyond the first quarter. For the rest of the game, you can watch the scrubs knock each other around. :spank:

I'm looking forward to Monday, and finding out if Donovan McNabb will or won't snap a femur getting out the car at the stadium, and thus be out for the year. On pins and needles, I am.

[blayne]

65. I guess I could say the same thing about Owens,

although, I believe he says that it's his lower back at the moment that's giving him problems.

[sandyj999]

40. Very Nicely Said

It always makes me feel good to see a person become more enlightened. It shows me that we as human beings are making progress. Slow progress but progress just the same.

[Mozcram]

41. Great, so you think gay people are just as good as straight people

Thanks for the posting; it's always good to hear from people who
are willing to admit to where they have come from. It
helps others to see themselves and therefore
to envision their own transformation.

There is always a next step, though, so... now that you see the
truth of this equality, be sure to communicate this to other
people. We live in a racist, sexist, homophobic society, and
so we have to always be willing to set others straight (so to speak)
when they exhibit signs of these troubles.

Not only is it important to believe that others are equal to us, but
it is important to go the extra mile to help alleviate the suffering
that is created in the absence of our activism.

It is important both to stop committing an injustice and to urge
others to do so.

[Sapphocrat]

58. Well said.

Enlightenment is worthless without action.

And: Welcome to DU. :hi:

[Sequoia]

42. That was a wonderful story.

[VWolf]

43. My turnaround happened

when I saw the film Philadelphia for the first time. I can't tell you how liberating it was to finally shake off the phobia.

[Midlodemocrat]

46. This is a great post.

[LostinVA]

52. Of course you'd say that

Since you're one of those mini van driving closeted housewives!

Hehehehehhehehe

It is a nice OP.

[racaulk]

49. Great post!

Thank you for sharing your story with us. :)

[Rambis]

56. My neighbor was like you used to be

He said he hated gay people because he didn't understand how you could choose to be gay or something along those lines.
He really is a nice guy just hasn't been anywhere but a small town. I said, "so when did you realize you were straight"? He laughed and thought about it. I said,"come on when did you make the decision (choose) you liked girls and not boys?"
He said, "It is just the way I am and it was never a choice?

I said there you go buddy! He said, "wow you know I have never thought about it that way" He was genuinely enlightened. He was worth staying around to talk to because of the kind of guy he is. Our other neighbors are a lost cause and I don't associate with them because of their anti gay rhetoric and support of the chimp. Being a republican is a character flaw IMHO and I don't waste my time with people like that.

[Maestro]

67. Yes, I was brought up to believe something was "wrong"

with homosexuals, but early in my high school years when a friend of mine turned out to be gay, I quickly learned that we are all just the same. It doesn't matter who we love. Now I'm almost 40 and have met some really nice gays, some really nice straights, some jerk gays and some jerk straights. The point is, we are all the same with the same good and bad characteristics.

[idgiehkt]

71. yeah it's really sad

the way a people can be demonized by groups, the main culprit is underexposure...people just don't know how boring/regular/whatever gays are, and that is a great argument for having celebrities come out if it won't hurt their career (I mean when they are multi-millionaires, come on) because it's one more gay person some people know of.

[meowomon]

72. Yep, we're all different

As a femme lesbian,I am not sexually attracted to men or feminine women. But put a butch in a tool belt and OH MY GOD that just does it for me. My "not wife" of 14 years stole my heart when she replaced the alternator on my car.

[David Zephyr]

73. You give me hope.

You know what, Bluzmann57?

Your post is so refreshing. No condescending. No lectures. Just you being honest as yourself.

I hope I can be as decent in my life, as introspective and as fair minded as you are.

Dude, you made my day. I'm gonna k&r this thing to the top.

-DZ

[Conscious Confucius]

76. I used to hate Star Trek

but now I love it. Why did I hate it? I never watched it and just made an assumption based on what the public's perecption of the show was. Being gay should be no different than any other part of a human's personality. Why is homosexuality still an issue? Is it 1800? Who cares? Heterosexual Christians are bigger social deviants than homosexuals, so why don't we ban their existence?

[anachro1]

77. I think it's varying degrees of awareness on one's part

Are you a follower of the masses?
Or do you tend to think for yourself?
Some people at differing times of their lives are ready to outgrow the limitations of GroupThink.
Others, like most Xtians and Republicans, tend to base their opinion on the imagined Wisdom (idiocy) of others.

Take my older sister (PLEASE!):
She calls herself a 'Born Again Christian' who nags the holy hell out of everyone in her family.
Years ago, she took on the role I call 'Matriarch with a Vengeance", and rules over her family with an iron fist.
She's a Republican who believes that GWB would not be President if he was not made so by GAWD.
She also finds comfort in whatever spews out of the mouth of whatever Pope is in charge at the time, for the stated fact
(hers, never mine) that "Life is so much easier if you have someone making all the decisions for you, and telling you what to believe."
The point is she will probably die thinking that way.

I had to get the FUCK away from that, and moved my gay, liberal ass to San Francisco.

Others, like you, are intuitive enough to break away from how your peers respond or react.
Speak up.
Now you have the perfect opportunity to educate them, if you so wish, on a different mode
of thought on the subject of gay people. It just might help them move on to a higher level,
similar to how much racism has changed in the past 30 years. Or women's rights; I remember
life BEFORE the Womens Lib movement took wing.

Welcome to your new mind!

[BillSam]

87. I certainly think we should be friendly to gay-friendly

straight people but let's not all get on our knees and genuflect.

I mean, straight people SHOULD be non-homophobic, right? In the 21st century?

Just like white people SHOULD be non-racist toward Blacks, Asians, etc.

Nobody should get a medal for doing the right thing. Not in this day and age. It should be EXPECTED. And we should have ZERO TOLERANCE for non-tolerance. And what we need is EQUALITY -- not just tolerance.

Not saying I'm not glad this guy has the right attitude (with a few adjustments) but let's not give him or anyone else the Key to the City just yet. Some gay people are so desperate for approval that somebody says something the least bit positive and we fall all over them.

I appreciate gay-friendly straight people, believe me -- they're terrific -- but the battle for our rights will ultimately be fought and won by US. No one can do it for us.

[swimboy]

98. You're right.

:thumbsup:

[Zenlitened]

91. Hat's off to you for having the character and courage to grow.

I say courage, yes, because it's so easy to hide away inside our own safe little worlds.

Examining our attitudes, admitting some of the ideas gumming up our heads are wrong, maybe making a few waves and putting ourselves out there as change-agents... that can be a difficult thing to do.

Thank you for putting in the effort, and sharing your story. :)

[GymDude]

93. My turnaround on Black people

I have a similar story!
First, I should start by saying that I am a total Caucasian. My family tree is very very White. But that's another story for another time.
Anyway, for most of my life, I really disliked Blacks, discriminated against them, told redneck jokes, etc.
But as I started to know some Black people, I started to realize that African Americans are just like the rest of us, except for the color of their skin. The first Black person I really got to know was a friend of my brother’s. After a while, I realized that he was just another person. He drove a Prius, went to the opera and knew more about Wagner than most of my White friends, he was a whiz at whist, and he ate prosciutto, etc. just like me and my White friends! Then a Black couple moved into a house down the street from me. They invited several of the neighborhood people over for a cocktail party. The finger sandwiches were first-rate, and the chardonnay was cold. There were two parents and two well-behaved kids, just like White families! John and Mary invited me to a whist tournament at a local African American club and I accepted. No one was violent, and I didn’t see a gun the whole evening! So I guess I have come nearly full circle in my understanding of the "black lifestyle". It seems to be people who go to work every day, who want to make car payments and house payments, and people who simply want to buy lots of stuff, just as we who are White want. I think I am a better man for now accepting blacks as "regular" people. Blacks are as regular as anyone else!!

[Sapphocrat]

94. ...

:applause:

And welcome to DU. :)

[NMMNG]

96. Best reply yet.

If only individual posts could be recommended.

And welcome to DU. :hi:

[MLFerrell]

97. Some people just don't appreciate good satire when they see it...

Luckily, I am not one of those.

Bravo, GymDude. Bravo.

[swimboy]

99. Cheers, GymDude!

:toast:

Thanks for providing a great platform from which to view the original post. :thumbsup:

[Zuiderelle]

100. Yes.

:thumbsup:

[Bluzmann57]

103. Sigh.

Let the bullshit begin. Whatever you believe. Who cares?

[BillSam]

108. Hey, it's okay Bluzman

I think we all appreciate that you're probably a perfectly nice guy who came to a decent realization about gays and that's great. Believe me, I far prefer that people be gay-friendly instead of gay-bashers! You have to understand that some of us have been struggling against prejudice for SO DAMN LONG that we may get a little cynical/realistic at times, thinking in regard to people who are FINALLY pro-gay: "what took you so long?" No harm intended, be assured.

Best to you!

[BillSam]

107. You are "wicked" --

I love it!

[mitchtv]

109. Thanks, Bluzmann

What a kind gesture.

[foreigncorrespondent]

111. Ya know...

...these kinds of posts really do piss me off. Why would you need kudos for this? Why not just go out and support the gay community by advocating for us? You won't win hearts by telling us we are "regular" people on a online forum, because that, does nothing to help us does it?

We need people like you not shying away from "rock ribbed righties" because it is people like you who can teach these people better than we can. How can we teach them when they run a mile when they see us coming?

So rather than posting to try and generate some pats on the back for yourself, get out there and begin teaching people the lesson you taught yourself.

[Toasterlad]

115. Please Speak for Yourself.

I LOVE reading posts like this from straight folks who have changed their minds. It gives me hope, and that's generally in short supply.

Also, it's a little presumptuous of you to assume you know why he posted in the first place. Maybe he sincerely regrets his past opinions and wanted to make a public apology in an appropriate forum. I don't in the least begrudge him his "pats on the back"; it's not everyone who can change their mind about something they grew up hearing only one version of.

Hopefully, the poster will share his story with others, but he is under no obligation to do so. And alienating him from the gay community is not likely to encourage him to speak well of us.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

113. Some choice selections (1)

"The first openly homosexual guy I knew was the brother of a girl I used to date. She often sneered at him, as she was feeding her four children (none of them mine lol). I occasionally joined her, but after a while, I realized that he was just another guy. He had a hot rod, a '69 Mustang fastback, he watched football and understood the game more than most of my straight friends, he was a whiz kid at euchre, and he ate chili, etc. just like me and my straight friends. "


And what if he was interested in hairstyles and fashion? I guess you would have written him off.

[qb]

114. Thanks for opening your mind.

By the way, I have been to gay bars lots of times and not been hit on, so don't feel bad ;)

[xchrom]

118. i find you more genuine and authentic in your opening up than some of the gay folk in this thread.

you're all right in my book.

[SacredCow]

119. Congratulations on your evolution....

Now, if you could just cross-post it over in Freeper-land! LOL