This is not really news to me, so I am not complaining. Just an

[Strong Atheist]

interesting poll:


http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=releases&-lay=web&-format=umnnewsreleases/releasesdetail.html&ID=2816&-Find

[Inland]

1. Confirming a political observation that I made.

The fear of atheism in the public is that it is, or leads to, a form of nihilism.

[Brazenly Liberal]

4. They're terrified the world will go spinning out of control

By having a set of rules put in place by an all-powerful being, people can feel there's some order - and therefore a sense of security - to the world. They know if they live right (whatever that means to them), look both ways before they cross the street, go to church on Sunday, and don't wear white after Labor Day, they will probably be okay most of the time. They believe that having their neighbors on the same spiritual page, they are safer.

Atheists challenge that by saying there is no all-powerful being and therefore no Rules from God. We're on our own to figure out what is right and then do it. This is very scary to a lot of people. They are afraid that without the Rules from God, their neighbors will go wild in the streets. I've heard, many times, religious or quasi-religious types asking, "If there's no God, there are no consequences. If there are no consequences, why would anyone bother to be good?" This reveals more about the speaker than it does about the world - mainly that s/he is one skeered little puppy.

[Inland]

5. Hard not to sympathize with THAT fear.

Security and order isn't a dress code. There is a Minimum Recommended Dose for a civilized society, and there's certainly enough of a lack for plenty of skeered puppies, including those found in emergency rooms and medivacs.

Therefore the issue of, "we are left to figure out what is right and then do it" still leaves the question of what they are figuring, and yes, that means uncertainty.

[Brazenly Liberal]

7. True, but

the uncertainty is there whether people acknowledge it or not. Better to own it and then deal with it than to hide under the covers. (This is not meant to preclude all religious affiliation, just the ostrich variety)

I am convinced that humans evolved to have a sense of right and wrong that is independent of religious affiliation. It does get corrupted, as many of our natural instincts do, and the result is - as you say - the question of what some people are figuring is right. Thus the current administration, the bastardization of otherwise harmless religions by extremists, and assorted other ne'er-do-wells.

[trotsky]

8. Which is of course a false assumption.

So people fear atheism because they're wrong.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. So, do you think the distrust is justified? -nt

[Taxloss]

2. Dang. Maybe we should stop plotting to bring down society.

Would that help?

More jumble sales, maybe? Stop eating babies? A whist drive?

[LaurenG]

3. I don't consider my self an atheist and I find that very insulting.

I have always believed that the atheists that I have known had a less disturbing quality about them than most other people I knew. I used to tease my friend about being a better Christian than our other friends who were.

I guess fearful people will always have their "statistics" to measure us all by. Fear, it's what the "dark side" serves up in place of thinking. Don't think get fearful!:eyes:

[TechBear_Seattle]

6. The thing is, most people ARE atheists of one sort or another

Most people deny the existence of the Olympian gods and the Asatru and the Vanir and the kami and pretty much every other divine, semi-divine and otherwise supernatural entity that has ever been worshipped. Why should I be discounted and discredited and distrusted, just because I believe in one fewer god that they do?

[Goblinmonger]

10. There is a quotation out there like that

Twain? OK, now I'm going to have to google.

On edit: Found it. "I contend that we are both atheists, I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you'll understand why I dismiss yours". - Stephen F. Roberts

[TechBear_Seattle]

14. Yup, I use that one a lot

Caused quite a firestorm in this forum a few months ago when I posted the quote and asked peoples' opinion about it :hi:

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Strong Atheist]

11. it is pretty clear that there are a good number of people

who are against religion and who are also against "morality" - I've read such posts.

Agree on the religion part; the morality part is utter hogwash, and not backed up with facts, I might add.

As for

You call yourself "Strong Atheist" and so I wonder - how do you see a community/country having a shared "morality" - and basis for laws - without any common sense about what is acceptable, what is good and what is not.

see:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=37872

[bloom]

12. That's a nice link

but it really doesn't address the question of how a group comes to terms with moral values in the absence of a common religion or "whatever".


And if you think what I wrote was hogwash - you haven't read the same threads I have. Of course sometimes the thread are yanked completely - like a poll yesterday that asked at what age an adult should have sex with a minor and a couple people answered "10" - the lowest age on the poll. And while the basis of one's answer - or one's religion was not part of the poll - anti-religion certainly is the basis for much of the anti-morality posts.

That doesn't mean that all atheists are immoral (I consider myself an atheist btw) - but some people use their anti-religion as part of their anti-morality stance. Sort of like this - only it's often more blatant (like the ones who say they are against morality):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=720671&mesg_id=720671

[Strong Atheist]

13. We will have to disagree about "immoral atheists". As for

how a group deals with "moral values", that is the way it is already done; to wit by either majority consensus or force. All group decisions on morality (read: laws) have always been arrived at by one of these two ways.

There is no "moral law" carved in stone somewhere that everyone agrees on, like people can agree on facts (see also:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=41704&mesg_id=43100

so large groups of people (or small groups with force) impose their tastes on others in the form of laws. That is the way it was, is, and always will be...

[TechBear_Seattle]

15. Would you agree to disagree on "lazy black person"?

The accusation that atheists inherently lack morality is no different than saying that blacks are inherently lazy and/or criminal, or that women are inherently unsuited for a business environment. Bigotry is bigotry.

[Goblinmonger]

16. Why do you hate America

pointing out flaws in inductive reasoning like that?

[TechBear_Seattle]

18. I am a liberal, that's why

According to the Ruling Party and their toadies, that alone means I am out to destroy all that is good and right. :hi:

[Strong Atheist]

17. I was being polite, I am in a mellow mood today...

you may be my guest, and hop in and talk to bloom yourself...

I did already point out that I thought the "immoral atheist" part was factually unfounded...

Carry on!

[beam me up scottie]

24. Except a statement like that would be deleted and rightfully so.

And yet hers still stands.

Bookmark this one for the next time someone says there is no religious intolerance on DU.

[bloom]

32. I never said

"atheists inherently lack morality" - that is quite a ridiculous accusation. Esp. since I'm an atheist.

See my post # 30 - for more on what I think about all that.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

23. Atheists are against morality.

Thank you Tammy Faye.

[Evoman]

21. Its about anti-intellectualism

I think its as much about anti-intellecualism as it is about morals. North Americans have a mistrust of experts and educated people....and it so happens that most atheists are well-educated.

"Atheists think they're better than us. Scientists think they are better than us. Sociologists, philoshophists and even politicians think that they are better than us." The only area in which Americans (and Canadians) accept elitism is from "self made" businessmen, actors, and sports figures. Thats a large proportion of religious people will follow idiot leaders. Thats whats behind the Falwell, Robertons following and the "I'd have a beer with" Bush vote. Over 90 PERCENT of the LEADING scientists are atheists and about 60 percent of ALL scientists are atheists. Thats why they hate science as well. ITs anti-intellectualism.

[Evoman]

22. Oh...

and before people start blabbing about how this isn't true, and that the majority of scientist have faith, let me give you some references

L.Larson et al. (1997) Scientists are still keeping the faith. Nature 386:435-436

Larson et al. (1998) Leading Scientists still reject god. Nature 394:313

and just for fun...

Provine, W. (1988) Scientist, Face It! Science and Religion are Incompatible. Scientist 9:10

[salvorhardin]

25. Yes, absolutely

Anti-intellectualism coupled with incessant cries from media bigots that only reinforce the listeners' own bigotry in one big moronic circle jerk.

[NMMNG]

26. Religion, in part, is about control

Atheists have no religion. Therefore the religionists are terrified because we are not under the control of their God or anybody elses. Mighty scary feeling for them, not being able to control people.

[Strong Atheist]

27. I would agree with this. nt.

[Inland]

28. That doesn't fit with poll results.

The attitudes towards atheists are different than attitudes towards those with other beliefs. Religion is hardly a means of control of members of OTHER religions.

Rather, as I put in my post no. 1 above, the fear is that atheism is or leads to a form of nihilism.

[trotsky]

29. Fits with my real-world results.

Including the time when I was speaking with coworkers not long after 9/11 and one of them actually said of radical Islamists, "Well, at least they aren't atheists."

Many religionists view religion (ANY religion) as the ultimate means of restraining a person from becoming completely and utterly evil. It has been my experience that most simply cannot believe that an atheist can be moral.

[NMMNG]

31. Religion is a form of control

And even if people in another religion aren't being controlled by the deity of the groups personal religion, that group can at least be content knowing they are being controlled by some deity. And some control is better than no control. Furthermore, people who are used to some form of control are going to be easier to bring under the control of that groups deity via conversion than are atheists, who are opposed to control by what they see as non-existent beings. Converting a person from Islam, Judaism or some other religion is much easier to the Christian because it's a simple matter of exchanging one form of control/deity for the other. When attempting to "convert" the atheist they are trying to break down staunch disbelief in deities, which is a completely different ball game altogether.

Even if conversion is not possible, just knowing people are under control of some religion is a soothing fact. It makes them more pliable than those who are not.

As for atheists, they scare the religionists in another way. Atheists do not have any holy scriptures or religious books. No Bible, Koran, Catechism, or Book of Discipline. They also don't meet every weekend to have some leader tell them who to follow, who to hate, who to vote for and what to protest. Atheists decide these things on their own, with facts. These two factors makes them far more unpredictable than religious people, and that scares the religionists. Unpredictability reduces controllability, and they don't like that at all.

[bloom]

30. so

Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher.

Edgell also argues that today’s atheists play the role that Catholics, Jews and communists have played in the past—they offer a symbolic moral boundary to membership in American society. “It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common ‘core’ of values that make them trustworthy—and in America, that ‘core’ has historically been religious,” says Edgell. Many of the study’s respondents associated atheism with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.

Edgell believes a fear of moral decline and resulting social disorder is behind the findings. “Americans believe they share more than rules and procedures with their fellow citizens—they share an understanding of right and wrong,” she said. “Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good.”

How is this any different from people who talk about Christians who make assumptions about all Christians because of what a few say and do? I see atheists do that all the time.

I made a poll for you. Here are the results:

I have a religious background and I support moral standards - 8 votes

I reject religion and I support moral standards - 9 votes

I have a religious background and I am against moral standards - 0 votes

I reject religion and I am against moral standards - 4 votes

Other (please elaborate) - 3 votes


While it's a small sample and subject to whomever felt like answering - there are some basic ideas that one could conclude from it.

Such as you are not going to have people say "I have a religious background and I am against moral standards". Or you might - but basically - religious people are going to see themselves as supporting a moral scheme of things. (We might see that they don't - but religious people won't say that they don't).

What you do see is people who say "I reject religion and I am against moral standards". While it is just a third of those who say they reject religion - the fact is that they are out there.

Also the people who are vigorously fighting moral standards are often the ones that you hear about. So if people - like in the study that you posted notice that - it really isn't a surprise. And while people in the broader society should know that the vocal anti-morality people don't speak for all atheists - esp. since they/we don't have a spokesperson at all - not being a group - it shouldn't be that much of a surprise if people do hear mostly them. That's what happens.

I suppose there may be some rebellion about seeing/recognizing this for what it is - people who reject religion and are against moral standards - because this idea seems to often be from people who see themselves as on the side of the left. I don't see it as a leftist stance to reject moral standards - but some people clearly do.

[Strong Atheist]

33. Of course, the poll was utter nonsense, as it was posted in the Lounge,

where no one would ever THINK of doing something crazy like messing with a poll.:eyes:

Really, your biases are showing quite transparently...

[bloom]

34. So you think

that people just say that they "reject religion and reject moral standards" to make Atheists look bad. :eyes:


That doesn't seem very likely. You might try reading some of the responses.


And you don't seem to get that I don't think that Atheists are any more or less moral than other people - just that they are more likely to say that they reject "morality" or moral standards. I don't know why that is such a big deal. Or why it would even be a surprise.

[Strong Atheist]

35. As it was originally, THIS:

just that they are more likely to say that they reject "morality" or moral standards

is utter hogwash. I know of no atheist who would say this.


Edited to add: Replace the word "atheist" with "african american" or "GLBT" to see the effect. And no, I don't consider a poll done in THE LOUNGE, of all places, to seriously present ANY kind of factual information. You will have to cover your tracks better than that...

[bloom]

36. So are these just imaginary people who post on DU?

"although I consider myself to be of a religious and moral background (ie: I got raised that way) I voted for the rejecting religion and against moral standards because I feel that in order for absolute true freedom that is the only way."


Like I say. I'm not saying the person has no morality or whatever - but people do say things like this. That's life.


I think it's just like any group - and I don't think Atheists are even a group - but people say and do different things. We aren't clones. I don't get why you are in denial.

[Strong Atheist]

47. Tell you what, I am QUITE willing to believe that YOU have no

moral standards, if you say so, since I know of no ATHEIST who would say this, and you say they do, I assume you speak from personal experience...

[bloom]

54. Did I say that?

I don't think so.


I think it sounds like you're going off the deep end - because you can't prove that all atheists have a shared morality or something.

You're not making any sense.

[Goblinmonger]

38. I don't think that Coloreds are any more or less moral than other people

yep...you are right...the effect is pretty clear. Wonder how many other people actually got that, though?

[bloom]

40. And if a black person said

"I don't think that Coloreds are any more or less moral than other people" - what would you think?


I am an atheist and if I want to point out the obvious - because people are so intent on putting words in my mouth - then I will.


P.S. You guys are really good at ignoring what I'm saying - taking one part and pretending that part is the whole thing.

I suppose you are in denial that I am an atheist as well - because an atheist would "never say" what I'm saying. :rofl:

Too bad you can't control all of the atheists in the world and make them all like you. !!!

[Goblinmonger]

42. ....

[bloom]

43. All I can figure

is that it is so much easier for you to dismiss me as being a ______ than it is to consider what I am saying.


Maybe you should look in the mirror.

[Goblinmonger]

44. I considered what you are saying

and you appeared to me to be an Uncle Tom of the atheist world. You are excusing the bigotry that the people in the poll had. Do whatever you want. I have no problem with that. Don't have to like it, though. Or agree with you.

[trotsky]

37. Seriously, you can't conclude ANYTHING from your poll.

Even interpretation of the phrase "moral standards" is questionable. Some might see it as a direct reference to the 10 Commandments. Others might think it means we should promote a legal system based on a set of agreed-upon moral standards (that aren't based on ancient books written by superstitious nomads). And that's not even getting into the problems with sample size, etc.

[Goblinmonger]

39. Silly Trotsky

Always looking at p scores and other statistical nonsense when interpreting a poll. What's next? Some silly notion that the wording of a poll question is important? Sheesh.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

45. For an "atheist" you are making quite an effort

to paint atheists as less moral.

All that's missing is a post starting with "I am a lifelong atheist but..."

[Strong Atheist]

46. ROFLMAO!

:yourock:

[bloom]

48. If you were to notice

you would have seen that all I said was that atheists are more likely to say that they reject morality/moral standards than people who consider themselves religious.

I'm really surprised that that is even surprising to anyone. A lot of people seem quite proud of their rejection of consensus morality.

It's difficult to believe that we are reading the same website.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

50. Nice backpedaling, but it's all is plain for us who are able to read

By the way: "rejection of consensus morality" is nearly always accompanied by a desire for a BETTER morality -- things A, B, and C are acceptable but shouldn't be, X, Y, and Z are not acceptable but should be.

[bloom]

53. "rejection of consensus morality"

As far as "rejection of consensus morality"is nearly always accompanied by a desire for a BETTER morality"

I think that is true in many cases. And people who post in Religion/Theology are probably more interested in that than your average person.

If people's perception in general of atheists was only what you read in Religion/Theology - they might have a different opinion.



Do you really think that people who reject morality - as a consensus - are as likely to be religious people as they are likely to be atheists?

Because the basic implication of rejecting morality - is that they have also rejected religion.

I think some replace it with a well-thought out philosophy that is concerned for others, etc. and I think some replace it with the Larry Flynt philosophy. Having read GD - I've read their posts. I don't think it was all just a joke as some would like to think.

[Strong Atheist]

51. "A lot of people seem quite proud of their

rejection of consensus morality.

More utter nonsense. Assertions without the slightest facts to back up the hot air, except for a bogus "poll" in a place known for being completely non-serious. Oh, yeah, you have ME convinced...
:eyes:

[Goblinmonger]

52. ...

Do you really not get that you are excusing the bigotry of that poll. Notice I used a different picture this time. Notice what it is implying.

[Goblinmonger]

49. I don't get it?

Why is atheist in quotation marks? Surely you aren't saying.....