A question for Christians

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

I just went to the bank to make the daily deposit for the business I work for. While walking by some parked cars, I noted a front license plate that said, "Jesus Paid For It All" with a picture of a cross. It got me thinking. It seems to me that fundamentalist Christians seem to concentrate upon Jesus's death, and upon the fact that they are 'forgiven' because they have 'accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior'. I don't see bumper stickers or licenses that say things like "Do unto others" or "He without sin cast the first stone" or "Blessed are the peacemakers", or "Whatsoever you do unto the least of these you do unto Me."

Is it my imagination, or do the fundamentalists sort of ignore the teachings of Jesus?

I was raised in a liberal Methodist church and firmly believed in following the teachings and the importance of good works, which I felt were as important, if not more so, than a profession of faith. Has Christianity as a whole changed from my childhood, or is the stress on faith alone simply a manifestation of the fundamentalists?

Thank you for your responses.

[Beware the Beast Man]

1. I think the Fundy mindset is "I am saved, everyone else be damned."

Since they consider themselves born again and therefore "saved," they do not have to lead by example, unless it is to condemn others. This is a very dangerous (and erroneous) mindset.

[PsychoDad]

9. Just like the repug..

I got mine, so screw you ?

Interesting, I never thought about it that way before.

Peace.

[drb]

13. Well, if you're looking for good examples, for goodness' sake don't....

...look at people. (Especially me!)

Look at Jesus.

People will always let you down. If you don't believe that, just look at Dobson - what a schmuck!

[phantom power]

2. One thing I've noticed...

Fundamentalists spend a lot of time quoting the Old Testament. That strikes me as peculiar.

When I went thru confirmation classes, we spent quite a bit of time on the concept of God's various covenants with Man. My memory is beginning to fail me, but one example is the Covenant that God made with Noah, after the flood. The last covenant was, essentially, that Jesus paid for our sins. Supposedly, there will be no further covenants.

Now, broadly speaking Christianity is based on the idea that Jesus more or less made all that went on in the Old Testament obsolete. The elder, vengeful and angry God of the Old testament was replaced with more enlightened notions of forgiveness, selflessness, etc.

But the Fundamentalists, they sure do like their Old Testament. Fire, Brimstone, Vengance...

[darkmaestro019]

3. they like the OT fine

until you ask them if people who eat shrimp are going to Hell, or if all their clothes are single-fiber and not blends. Or how their last sacrifice of an ox turned out. Or why in the world ANY god would want a large heap of foreskins. (retch) Then they announce Jesus overwrote all that "stuff" Except for the bits about queers and female inferiority, I guess.

[drb]

12. If you read the OT right, it's chock full of "pictures"...

...of Jesus. Noah's ark, for example....

The ark is made of wood, just like the cross. There's one door into the ark - one way to God. The flood waters represent judgement, and the ark rescues those inside it.

Pascal has a lot of cool stuff to say about that in "Pensees"

[phantom power]

14. Hmm. Sounds like apophenia to me.

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. Nice sounding word, but I'm not finding it anywhere.

What is "apophenia"?

[phantom power]

17. Apophenia is the experience of seeing patterns or connections....

in random or meaningless data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

It's a normal facet of human experience. Our brains are wired to identify patterns. False positives are a natural outcome. You could say that the scientific method was designed as a methodology for weeding out these false positives.

[Dervill Crow]

4. It's good PR -- something for nothing.

Back when the emphasis was on a Christian's responsibility to others, church membership wasn't growing by leaps and bounds. Now the pendulum seems to have swung too far the other way and many people believe it is all about faith and they can do what they want.

on edit, because I didn't finish my thought:

Unfortunately, some of them are heavily into judging others. Since they can't see into other people's hearts they judge them by what might be considered more visible "sins," completely ignoring their own.

This is in no way a criticism of all Christians, just my observation of some. Some of my best friends are Christian. :pals: YMMV.

[MindPilot]

5. I never got this whole "died for my sins" thing

Exactly how does that work? Jesus was executed so I can go to heaven?
Even if one begins with the assumption that God, Jesus & heaven exist and that the bible is more than a compilation of bad fairy tales, it still makes no logical sense.

God being omnipotent could forgive me for whatever sin I committed regardless of what happed to JC. Could it be it's ALL bullshit?

[phantom power]

6. mmmmmm.... COULD be....

:-)

[drb]

11. You know, it took me absolutely forever to figure it out, but ....

...if I might, let me share it with you.

First of all, forgiveness requires payment. Think about it.... if you rip me off for $10, and ask your friend to forgive you... well, it doesn't make any sense, does it, unless he coughs up $10 and gives it to me? To forgive you, he has to pay. And if I forgive you, I'm out $10. I have to pay.

It's been that way since the beginning of the world. Forgiveness always requires payment. Without payment, it's just smoke and words. With payment, it's the real deal.

Second, we're all sinners, me especially. When was the last time I passed by some homeless guy without emptying my wallet for him? Enough said there, even without getting into the real juicy parts :) !

So, what's the price for getting God to forgive our sins, so we can get into heaven? Well, that's the tough part. It's in the Bible - "the wages of sin is death." Eeeewww!! I really don't like that part all that much, but there it is. You sin - you die. Death. Umm, let's talk about something more fun than death, OK?

We can pay the price ourselves. Unfortunately, when we die that way, we're just getting what we deserve, and we end up stoking the Big Furnace Downstairs. We've gotta find someone who (a) didn't sin and (b) therefore has a life "left over" that he's willing to donate to the cause.

That person is Jesus. Us "Drippy Christian Types" believe that Jesus lived (there's plenty of historical evidence for that) and lived a sinless life. As a result, he didn't have to die, but he did anyway. In doing that, he paid the price (death) for our sins.

Believe it or not, all you gotta do is say, "Sounds like a deal! Count me in, God!" Like the rest of that "wages of sin" quote says, "The wages of sin is death, but God's gift is eternal life." A gift. Free. Weird, huh?

It makes absolutely no sense (to me, at least) that God would just give something like that away to schmucks like me. Do I understand every last bit of it? Heck no. And I'm sure I won't until I get to the Pearly Gates and I spend 20 years asking St. Peter stuff like, "Well, what about little bitty babies that die?"

If you want to read a really good book about the concept that a Big Mean God would actually love dummies like me enough to let us in on the deal free, I recommend "What So Amazing About Grace?" by Philip Yancey.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming! Thaks for reading!

[El Supremo]

15. Hey, that's pretty good. Thanks. n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. thank you for an interesting concept

the idea that sins must be paid for, in some form or another, goes back in antiquity. The ancient Egyptians believed that one's heart was weighed on a scale; if good deeds outweighed the bad, one got to ride in the boat that went with Ra endlessly; otherwise, the heart was fed to demons.

I could see if someone felt that the world was one where forgiveness had to be paid for, one could accept the philosophy of 'saved by grace'.

However, please realize that some have different concepts of God, where Mercy and Compassion and, yes, forgiving, comes without any price other than an opening of the heart and a request for forgiveness.

[MikeH]

24. Perhaps, but I have a few issues

One thing that has bothered me is that according to much Christian teaching, particularly fundamentalist and evangelical teaching, one can only be forgiven or "saved" if one accepts Jesus Christ during this lifetime. If a person, for whatever reason, misses out on accepting Christ in this lifetime, then that person is out of luck, according to some people.

One scenario that has bothered me is that of a murder victim being unsaved, and supposedly going to hell, and the murderer later accepts Christ, say in prison, and goes to heaven.

And I cannot accept that people of other religions, or people who never hear of Christ, are going to hell because they don't accept Christ.

And even after accepting Christ for myself, I could never accept or feel comfortable with the idea that somebody else's salvation or eternal destiny might depend on my telling that person about Christ. I could never want to tell somebody else about Christ believing that and based on that motivation.

Even if I can accept that people are ultimately saved through Christ, I cannot accept that such salvation depends on the circumstances of a person explicitly hearing about, understanding, and coming to accept Christ in this lifetime.

Actually I am not a Christian any more, so I don't worry so much about these issues any more. I am not a Christian any more mainly because I feel that Christianity was not of help to me personally, as I explained in a post on another thread.

Thus I am off the hook as far as any obligation to tell others about Christ.:) I don't think I have any obligation to tell others about Christ, who was not of any help to me in this lifetime, but who *supposedly* has saved me from going to hell in the next life (but which one would have no way of verifying; the only warrant for believing it is because it is in a book which is *supposed* to be the infallible "Word of God" but was actually written by fallible humans and is fallible just like anything else).

Edited to add: If God loves me, as Christians claim, then He accepts me where I am as far as Christianity is concerned.:)

[YOY]

7. It's downright medeval actually

Passion plays and concentration on the death of Jesus were orignally brought about by the Catholic chirch in the middle ages. Passion plays (much like Gibson's stupid movie and the Fundies' concentration) focus on death, blood, and guilt. This is where Catholic guilt comes from as well as a crapload of anti-semitism.

I went to Catholic school and liked the moral lessons of Christ's life. They are about what good christianity symbolizes. It was when they started focusing on the death, blood, and guilt that I began to tune them out. I still like the philosphies of christ...they are very positive once you take out the magic tricks and archaic nonsense.

When we focus on death, violence, and fear more ears and eyes are turned our way. It's just idiotic human nature that let the fundies (of all denominations) take the reigns. Kind of like rubber neckers on the highway. We all slow down and pay attention when there's blood and gore.

[El Supremo]

8. I'll answer your question with another question (sort of like Jesus would)

Just what kind and how many good works must you do to get into heaven?

Does once helping an old lady cross the street when you were young get you your ticket? Does dedicating most of your life to helping the sick and poor, like Albert Schweitzer, get you in any quicker? Does getting a dispensation for donating to the building of St. Peter's Basilica really work?

I am a believer in Reformed Theology. Salvation is a gift and cannot be earned. Following the teachings of Christ are just a manifestation of already being saved.

[phantom power]

10. There does seem to be an aspect of "sincerity" to being saved, yes?

The classic Christian notion of repentance. You really can be saved on your death-bed, but your repentance must be truly sincere. I always interpreted the concept of sincerity as a state of mind only knowable by God.

[El Supremo]

19. Naw, that ain't it.

You can only be sincere if God has already allowed you to be. That was John Calvin's premise. I know that this seems to eliminate all self determination, but I have yet to find otherwise.

[kwassa]

23. Predestination, pure and simple

It does remove the concepts of will and volition from the mix.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. ah, but you don't do good works to get into heaven

at least in my concept of things. You do good works because it is right and good to do them. There is an old Sufi story that says a man died and went to Judegment. It was found that he didn't have enough good deeds to enter Paradise. He turned to his relatives, asking them to give him some of their good deeds. They refused, saying they needed them for themselves. He then turned to his friends, who answered much the same. And then he turned to his Sufi brothers and sisters, who replied, "Take all our good deeds. It is enough for us that you enter Paradise."

[htuttle]

18. It goes all the way back to the Nicean Creed, doesn't it?

The Nicean Creed emphasizes numerous aspects of the virgin birth/crucifixion/resurrection tale, and not a single word about what Jesus ever said. It talks all about the 'forgiveness pass' granted by the crucifixion, but not a word about the poor, or love of fellow humans.

In addition, as I recall, one of the core issues that split Martin Luther from the Catholic Church was that the church believed that salvation was achieved through faith and good works, while Luther believed that salvation was achieved through faith alone.

So I wouldn't say it's a new thing. At least it doesn't seem to be from where this non-Christian is sitting.

[nemo137]

22. Fundementalism takes the Reformation to deformed extremes.

It takes Luther's idea of "salvation by grace alone" to mean "I am saved, and any good works I do would cheapen that salvation." It also takes Calvin's ideal of the elect, and turns it into a mad rush for money and presteige, on the idea of "I think I'm saved, and I want everyone else to know it, therefore, I am going to make as much money as I can and look as Pious as possible."

[Goldensilence]

25. personally

I always thought the relgion is backwards.

The idea of forgiveness without understanding is meaningless. It is rediculous to me to think that one can forgive another without understand the nature of the transgression is in anyway progressive. To me it is like cause an effect. You can forgive the effect all you want but it won't prevent it from happening again. In understanding the underlying cause can there be any redemption perse. In understanding the cause you can alter or prevent the effect. That to me is the true suffering of the religion the lack of understanding.

The idea of orginal sin also seems backwards to me. For God to create man "imperfect" then punish him for his "imperfections".

The idea that God created just this earth as the only bastion of life in such a huge universe also seems pretty egocentric to me. That in such a vast area we are it's only chosen creation.We might as well go on beliving the Earth is flat and it is the center of the universe.

To have such a violent bloody book of knowledge...jeeze God kills more people and destroys the world after his creation becomes too violent. Just the logic in that book.... baffles me.That's just the old testament. Mankind picks up with God's Killing post new testament.

I wonder sometimes now if only an extinction level event could only wake up mankind now.