Buffet, Gates, and Pat Robertson.

[cleanhippie]

[darkstar3]

1. I predict another clusterfuck regarding Gates.

:popcorn:

[Ikonoklast]

2. Most Corporate Christians are phonies to begin with.

If there was no way to get wealthy using religion as the tool to do so, no one would be in the God business.

[David Sky]

3. We all should know by now, folks like Roberston are only in it for the $ ~!!

Theirs is about the most incredible money making scam in America.

And to think people actually give him their money! Old men and women die leaving him their fortune. He pays no taxes on those gifts, either. Religious donations are not taxable.

[Deep13]

4. That's pretty much a given for the priestly class as a whole.

Not that there aren't exceptions, but for the most part those at the pulpit know they are ripping people off.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. Please, I grew up as a preacher's kid, and

it wasn't till I was in college and read an article about "the welfare diet" that I realized that we ate just such a diet at the end of each month.

[David Sky]

6. That's the thing about religions, some faiths allow their religious leaders to starve

on small incomes, while others like Pat Robertson live like kings.

There's no equality or equity in the preacher profession.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[dmallind]

9. They are indeed full of shit- but Robertson has an audience of over a million every day

How many does your friend reach? His brand of Christianity, full of shit indeed, is far more popular than hers. Why is that and how can it be changed?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

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[dmallind]

15. He was not born with millions - his Christian followers gave it to him....

.... - why did not as many or more give as much to those of the "true word of God" so they could spread their message as well as he does?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. Pat Robertson serves the elite and reaches the ignorant

After he said that Christians (by which he meant only evangelicals and fundamentalists, of course) in the U.S. are as persecuted as Jews in Nazi Germany, he should have been laughed off the airwaves, but someone in the Establishment obviously finds him useful.

I asked several of his fans, "So is he a shameless liar, or is he really that ignorant?" In either case, he's not worth listening to." They had no answer.

My answer: "Yes, he's a shameless liar, and his followers really are that ignorant."

You'd think that such an outrageous and inaccurate statement as Robertson's would have kept late-night comedians busy for weeks, but no. You have to wonder why that is when similar gaffes by politicians make the rounds of the comedy clubs.

There have been hokey evangelists in the U.S. since forever, and Oral Roberts was on TV when I was a little kid in the 1950s, but they were sort of fringe until the Reagan administration, when all of a sudden there were megachurches everywhere and characters like Robertson, Swaggart, and Bakker quoted all over the media as authorities on Christianity. Meanwhile, some of the right-wing foundations are doing their best to sow dissension in the mainline churches over issues such as GLBT rights. I wonder if the same right-wing foundations are funding the explosive growth of the megachurches and making sure that the fundie superstars stay in the news.

[dmallind]

16. But why can't ANY liberal Christian do so well as those "hokey evangelists since forever"

From the outside it surely seems that the snake oil guys do better selling their message because more believers believe in it than opt for the selfless kinder gentler believer message. I suppose it's possible they are simply better salesmen, but surely over the last couple of centuries sales ability should have evened out between the belief styles?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

17. I've mentioned this many times before, but

we don't get any respect from the media. It's like being a Kucinich supporter in 2004. Pat Robertson says something typically stupid, and the media all report it, not only the fundie media, but the national MSM as well. Some liberal figure says, "That's crazy," and is lucky if the local media mention it.

You know how the anti-gay types are always on the front page?

When my church in Portland hosted the ordination to the Episcopal priesthood of an out gay man (with the enthusiastic support of our parish, where he had served his transitional diaconate, and before this was officially allowed by the national church), it was on p. 3 of the B section of the Oregonian.

Not surprising. It was typical.

We don't have the Coors Foundation or the Bradley Foundation funding us or providing lists of approved interviewees for news shows.

[David Sky]

13. One can donate their time, their money their fortunes to helping others in the world and ..

NOT have anything to do with religion of any kind associated with it.

Teachers, firefighters, police, doctors, nurses, and others of all varieties do it daily by the millions around the world.

If one has NO OTHER way of giving one's skills and time and future to the world, do it through a religion, but otherwise, there's literally a few tens of thousands of ways to make the world better without putting a religion next to one's efforts.

Nice that you and your friend have found a way to give back to humanity, and it's probably best for you to do it through your church. But there's millions of others that do it without needing to say it's a RELIGIOUS effort. Basically, it's a HUMAN effort.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. No problem with that view

Yes, I knew plenty of atheists when I lived in Portland, and they did great things through organizations such as Food Not Bombs.

However, I think those of us who are Christians get really tired of lines such as "religion is the source of all the evil in the world" or "only stupid people are religious" or "why can't you liberal Christians control the fundies" (Short answer: They don't recognize us as fellow Christians but as false prophets deluded by Satan), or the number one atheist cliché of all time, "cramming religion down my throat."

That's why Christians on this board appeal to the good works that their churches do. Most of us have never experienced the bad side of religion, or at least the good has outweighed the bad, and in fact, some of us have reasons to be grateful for the existence of religious communities in our lives.

When I attended the Anglican Church in Stockholm, Sweden, a parish for English-speaking expats, they told me that churches in Sweden had trouble finding people to be charitable to because the social safety net in Sweden is so strong. Instead, they partner with churches in Eastern Europe to help people who are struggling in the wreckage of the Shock Doctrine. This particular church is paired with a church in Latvia, a country that went through a temporary boom like Ireland and Iceland and collapsed even worse, to help the elderly, who are suffering more than any group under austerity.

Now it would be great if we had a safety net like Sweden's. I hope I live long enough to see that. In the meantime, however, with cutbacks all over the place and Republicans saying "no" to everything that might keep all those teachers, firefighters, police, social workers, etc. employed and helping the needy, the churches are a major part of the social safety net.

This past weekend, I attended a Meet-Up having to do with one of my leisure interests, and the organizer told us that the need for food assistance is so great that the food shelves cannot keep up with the demand. We therefore decided to adopt a food shelf and bring donations to our monthly meetings from now on. I was really pleased that this group (made up of diverse people of unknown religious or philosophical orientation, since the subject has never come up) was so enthusiastic about the effort.

In the meantime, the local office of Episcopal Community Services is on the grounds of my church, and when I arrive for choir practice or to work at our meals for low-income youth (cooked onsite, served with no proselytizing or praying or questions asked of the recipients), there are always people going in and out of the ECS office.

Someone on the outside may not realize what a huge part of the social safety net the mainline churches are these days.

[Deep13]

10. Exception that proves the rule, maybe.

Your father or mother was scrupulous and not grasping and as a result your family was not wealthy. I suppose one could say the same about lawyers and I often have.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. When I was growing up, most clergy were very low income

Even now, clergy in the mainline denominations are on a salary scale that depends on the size of the congregation and their own years of experience. Taking more of the church's money for their own use would be considered a huge violation of their responsibility to the congregation, and it would be difficult, because the money is overseen by a board of laypeople elected by the congregation. (Having served on such a board, I know what churches spend their money on.)

A mainline clergy person would probably be kicked out of the ministry for appropriating church funds for personal use or for asking the parishioners for money for personal use.

In some parishes, the clergy have a "discretionary fund" which is to be used for individual acts of charity that don't fall under any program, and they have to report on how they used it. Usually these are donations to individuals who are suffering a specific short-term hardship, but they may consist of extra help for a more organized congregational effort.

[deacon_sephiroth]

8. wait... that can't be right

SURELY, the ONLY good is god, and therefor god simply does good work THROUGH the top two men, while the DEVIL does his wickedness via Pat, ooo ooo, no no I got it, God is using these guys to TEST US, and see if we are smart enoug hand strong enough to turn from false profits and follow the example of......godless heathens? That's still not right. hang on, I'll get it.... They are not real Christians! That should cover it.

[cleanhippie]

18. Oh, it's right.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. I prefer the explanation in the parable

about the man with two sons. He tells the first son to do some work, and the son says, "Sure, Dad," but doesn't do it. The father then tells the second son to go do some work. The son says, "No," but does the work anyway.

Robertson is an example of the first son. Buffett and Gates are examples of the second son.