Is the Catholic Church heading for a split?

[GOPFighter]

My wife is Catholic. It is the bedrock of her life, her belief in God is what keeps her going. She is also very liberal. Once a month she reads a prayer to the congregation. Usually she reads the prayer over before reading it publicly but last Sunday she didn't have time. She said everything was going fine until she was halfway into a passage that read "...and we pray for an end to abortion everywhere." My wife is very pro-choice. She said after the words left her mouth, she stopped because she was too angry to go on and people knew it. She finally finished the prayer and left. She was furious by the time she got home.

I'm an atheist so we rarely discuss religion (it breaks her heart that I am going to hell), but I can see that my wife is really getting fed up with the Catholic church, and I think it is just going to get worse.

Does anyone else feel the Catholic church is in the beginning stages of a major breakup? The new Pope seems intent on moving the church toward religious fundamentalism, similar to the Protestant fundamentalists here in the U.S. At some point I think the church will cross a line that a lot of Catholics here (and worldwide) won't put up with it. I see a split coming, with the conservative Catholics staying and allying themselves with the Protestant fundamentalists, while the moderate/liberals leave and set up a new church where Priests can marry, and with a greater focus on Jesus's message of love and compassion.

[Maccagirl]

1. I'm a liberal Catholic as well

and yes, I can forsee a split. There is a lot of tension between the conservative wing (Opus Dei) and moderates/libs. Actually, to remove ourselves from Opus Dei would be just fine with me.

[Dorian Gray]

2. Well, simply....

I don't know why that would be difficult for her to read at a Catholic Church. I mean, even if you are a pro-choice Catholic, you should recognize that making this decision for any woman is very difficult. I think that you can hope for the end to abortion in the world (through education, proper health care and medical provisions) without making it illegal in the political process.

I don't want abortion to be illegal, but I would love to see the numbers go down from where they are. Every woman I know who has gone through one (regardless of their religious faith) has had a difficult time of it. It was a tragic decision for each one, and I don't know one who had decided to go through the abortion who would have preferred not to have gotten pregnant in the first place. (I'm very lucky to not know anybody who has had abortions for medical reasons. Which is a different topic, I believe.)

Having said all that, I believe as a Catholic you can look at that as a statement prayer for prevention from need rather than legislation. (Does that make sense?)

[GOPFighter]

20. I understand your point...

...and certainly everyone I know would love to see abortion numbers go down, and if that was the intent of the prayer she would probably have less heartburn with reading it, but you know and I know the Catholic Church wants to see abortion made illegal, and I think most would agree that the intent of that prayer was to pray to God to make abortion illegal (at east that's how my Catholic wife interpreted it).

[shrike]

3. Depends

I don't have a crystal ball, but a lot could happen. I'm Catholic myself, am very fed up with the current leadership, but am playing a waiting game for now. I deal with religious orders like the Sisters of St. Joseph, who run a local college (which is geared toward people who ordinarily would not go to college; former and current gang members go to school there) and complete social justice projects like work in the inner-city, and humanitarian trips to Guatemala. This is the side of the Church that I like.

It depends on so many things -- how long Benedict lives, if his cadre of followers retains power after he's gone, if another John XXIII comes after him, world events, etc., etc. The church has been around for hundreds of years and a lot would have to happen for there to be a schism -- although schisms certainly have happened. I personally think it is unlikely, but something DOES have to give. There are plenty of people like me -- and I'm including clergy in this mix. At the very least, reforms have to come about. The church isn't going away -- there are enough committed Catholics like myself, and plenty of good work to do in the world, and yet, if the church grows too conservative, who knows ...

Wish I knew the future.

[LibDemAlways]

4. This past Sunday at the mass my husband attended

the priest gave an anti-death penalty sermon. After the sermon, petition prayers are read and the congregation is then invited to add their own thoughts out loud. Some freeper woman, pissed at the priest, shouts out, "Let's pray for those who support the death penalty!"

My husband said it was all he could do to keep from adding, "Let's pray that the moron who just spoke sees the error of her ways."

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. People who support the death penalty NEED prayer

because they are confused.

[beam me up scottie]

13. They need more than that.

You beat me to it.
I'm just an evil atheist and I don't support it.

[Dorian Gray]

24. Exactly, TallahasseeGrannie!

Perhaps the petition wasn't from a freeper, but rather from someone who believed that those who support the death penalty are WRONG and need all the prayer that they can get! :)

[afdip]

5. let's see. the catholic church, formerly known as "the church,"

is the worlds oldest, largest and richest corporate structure (yes, even richer than microsoft). through thousands of years, it has proved itself capable of adapting to every challenge it has faced. it has lied, faked documents, murdered, sold out its adherents -- in short, it is the ultimate survivor. to consider for even a moment that the church is on its last legs, is to toss two milennia into the dustbin of history. these are the guys who cut a deal with the nazis to survive in europe. can you seriously think they are challenged by pedophile priests, birth control or the next bump in the road??? tell your wife to calm down. her church ain't goin' anywhere.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. The church has a very, very strong orthodox

movement that is getting stronger. Vocations in monasteries and convents, particularly, are up. It is probably the result of John Paul II's youth initiatives. The convents that are the most popular are the most orthodox, with full habits, some of them enclosed, where the nuns never leave the convent.

I think you will see a certain amount of splitting off, and I predict that a lot of those folks in this country might find their way to the growing Anglican movement, which is the offshoot of the Episcopal church schism. (over among other things, ordination of a non-celebate gay bishop)

I think the Catholic Church will survive intact.

[shrike]

14. I used to think nothing would split it up

But if the Orthodox movement grows stronger, and liberal Catholics like myself feel more alienated -- who knows?

As I've said in an earlier post, I'm taking a wait-and-see approach. If there is a split there's no question in my mind where I would go.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

15. I have read

that the orthodox movement would relish a split so just the "pure" Catholics are left.

[shrike]

16. Wouldn't surprise me n/t

[CatholicEdHead]

25. So true

I read the comments on Catholic World News http://www.cwnews.com and that is the gist of most of the comments there. "Catholics" have to be 100% in agreement with the hierarchy and there is no theorethical theological room for error.

It is quite sickening.

[GOPFighter]

21. Her church may not be going anywhere, but

she might!

Of course you open up a whole new area of frustration for me. After I finished reading "The Bad Popes" by E.R. Chamberlin, a book about the early Popes, I described the corruption and sordid activities of these 'men of God' and it didn't phase her. But the churches condemnation of politicians who support legal abortion while remaining silent about politicians who support the war in Iraq has her pissed! Personally, I'm curious how anyone could take the church as a whole seriously after studying it's history...

[Not Me]

6. After a great deal of inner conflict....

I left the Catholic church. I refuse to be part of my own oppression.

I suspect that many others have done the same.

[arwalden]

18. ~

:thumbsup:

[CatholicEdHead]

27. I am on the edge right now

My current Parish is still pretty left-of-center moderate and I have found a group of mostly liberal Catholics left in town. This is through the local JustFaith group. It is a look into the broad Catholic social teachings, which often get cherrypicked more often than not.

I have also did more research to the theology popular in my youth, with the late, progressive Bishop Raymond Lucker. I am getting back to my roots to try to deal with the present.

Yet I do feel I am in a shrinking oasis in an ever-growing desert and will have to make hard choices in the coming years.

[PassingFair]

33. Funny! My husband went to an all-boy catholic highschool...

Everytime they call and ask him for money, this is what happens:

Him: Honey! It's UofD on the phone, can I give them any money?

Me: Have they ordained a woman priest yet?

Him: Have you ordained any women priests yet?

Them: Nope

Him: Nope

Me: (To original question) Nope!

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. Protestant fundies will only ally with Catholics if they need them

say to shore up support for people like **. But in their hearts they have nothing but contempt for the Catholics, whom they consider unsaved.

Your wife needs to consider two possibilites. Stay and help her church become more liberal or go and find a church that is already more liberal.

[GOPFighter]

22. Actually I prefer a third choice

reject religion, but the chances of that are about the same as George Steinbenner having a peaceful sleep last night <chuckle>

[CatholicEdHead]

26. Much of the current core of the current "tradionalist" movement

borrows heavily from the Protestant fundie movement. Read the National Catholic Register, Catholic World News, watch ETWN, listen to Relevant Radio, Ave Maria Radio, etc... and that is just fundie/Republican theology tweaked slightly towards Catholics.

Most of the hosts are former fundie Protestants who converted late in life because the RCC allows them to go more fundie than their local church allowed.

Realistically, much of the tradionalist side of the RCC (outside of the schismatic SSPX) is just fundie/Republican religion in "Catholic" clothes. The overall roots are of course secular/political in nature.

[Larkspur]

9. I split from the Catholic church in 1990 and have not regretted it

I had been drifting away from the Church since JP II began steering the Church back to the Right. I was hoping for women priests and would have thought about becoming one, but with a church leadership re-embracing misogyny, I refused to support them.

What finally triggered my exodus from the church were 2 events: 1) Cardinal O'Connors $5 million ad buy in New Yort for anti-abortion ads and 2) a nun visiting my local church begging money for retired nuns. I was pissed that the "princes of the church" would spend $5 million on anti-abortion ads, but would not use that money to care for the retired nuns.

I'm technically an agnostic now, but find Celtic Wicca appealing.

[William769]

11. Anyone Remember Martin Luther?

Well it's been about 500 years. Maybe it's about time.

[catbert836]

31. Not like that, please!

Martin Luther was a nutjob... no disrespect to Protestants on DU, of course. But seriously, he was the one who first said that people can only be saved through faith in god. That evolved over 500 yers, and now, it's the fundie BS we hear in the media. I'll admit, he did challenge the selling of indulgences and the corruption of the church, so he did some good. He was wrong for some of the right reasons.

[mzteris]

12. actually

***and we pray for an end to abortion everywhere." ***

This isn't a BAD thing. I pray for an end to abortion everywhere, too...........

but I don't pray to make abortion illegal - just unneeded!!

Could she have added a commentary?

[trotsky]

17. Unless liberal Catholics like your wife stop supporting it,

no, it ain't going anywhere. As it is, most liberal Catholics on DU, despite their complaints about the Catholic "leadership", continue to support the organization indirectly by attending their church and giving it money.

[arwalden]

19. ...A-a-a-and Bingo Was His Name-O.

That sums it up perfectly. Some folks may put on a show of saying the right things... but their mostly private and muted grumblings are meaningless as long as they continue to support the Catholic church with their attendance, with their names on the membership lists, with their silence and with their MONEY.

All of those things equals and endorsement, approval and consent of the Catholic Church's bigotry.

[GOPFighter]

23. Hmmm, I'll have to ask her about money

There ain't no line item in our budget for contributions to the church!

Actually, I seriously doubt she gives money to the church. She contributes by reading the prayers, though she might not even be doing this any longer...

[catbert836]

32. An option for liberal Catholics

If they support doing the work of god and are against the bigotry of the church's leaders, then they should have no problem at all with giving the money that they would put in collection baskets to charity instead. For example, my mother still goes to church, but she has refused to give the church any money since the abuse scandals, and gives her $25.00 a week to a school in South Dakota set up by the Franciscans to educate poor Native American children instead of the collection basket.
Note: I want to be very careful. Her money goes to the school, not the order.

[DanCa]

28. somethings coming thats for sure. Read my excommunication thread.

I really wish everyone on the left on the right would stop this infighting and stand up and protest the fundies that's the only way to stop this. Imagine if every DU would protest the catholic bishops council at thier next meeting. They'd bugger off quick. Untill then they'll only get louder and louder.

[mwooldri]

29. Then why isn't the Anglican Communion growing?

As far as I can tell, it's essentially a Reformed Roman Catholic church. Priests can marry, women can lead congregations (I'd happily have the Vicar of Dibley any day), and even openly homosexual people can be priests and .... wait for it..... bishops!

However, Anglicanism isn't the flavour/brand/sect of Christianity that is sweeping the nation. People aren't rushing to their nearest ECUSA church because there's now women priests, or that condom use is 'ok' (if you must). If anything, it's the more fundamental sects that are experiencing the growth and Anglicanism is shrinking. This may be indicative of something: that the liberal Christians have not been able to connect with their brethren.

Mark.

[CatholicEdHead]

34. Cannot connect with the brethen

is correct. Yet the answers to that lies outside the churches.

The more fundie/tradionalist sects have huge media operations. You add that with the thick mixing in with politics and that is where the black and white sects are getting ahead, better marketing.

Yet to do this they put themselves up on petestals all the time. The priest today talked about the lack of humility in today's world. People are drawn to flashy religion just like shiny jewels. Call it an extention of our consumer culture.

[JerseygirlCT]

30. LOL, yes, but the rate at which the Catholic Church moves

means we're not likely to see anything actually happen for several generations or more.

Which is a big reason why I'm now an Episcopalian.