Tell me again how faith is a quiet, private thing.

[darkstar3]

Tonight, while on a contract, I got to sit and listen to a two-hour session of "witness to the heathen." All of the major talking points were hit in barrage fashion as the witness talked over just about everything I might have said, but what struck me the most about this conversation was not its topic, but its setting. I was on contract helping out a business, and he was a client. So not only was I basically a captive audience as I sat there and listened to him jaw about Jesus, he managed to talk about politics and religion in a single session in the workplace.

To top it off, on the way there and back, I passed 5 billboards for Jesus. Not to mention the fact that I paid for my dinner with a bunch of paper that had a single god's name printed on it.

Tell me again, denizens of the board, how faith is a quiet and personal thing. Tell me again how the faith of others doesn't affect me if I choose not to believe. Tell me again how no serious, modern Christians believe in the idea of Hell or an invisible man who lives in the sky (his actual words, no bullshit). And somewhere along the way, as you repeat yourselves for what has to be the hundredth time, maybe you'll realize that faith isn't as quiet and personal as you make it out to be. Maybe, just maybe, you'll face the fact that you might just be the minority version of Christians, and that the "cartoon theology" you accuse atheists on this board of using as a straw man is wielded like a club by those non-Scotsmen you abhor so much.

I, and my fellow atheists, have legitimate complaints about the state of religion, and Christianity in particular, in this country. They will not be silenced, and they will not be debased, by those who would paint us simply as "angry atheists". We are citizens of this free country too, goddammit, and we will not be silent simply because our truth makes the majority uncomfortable.

:rant:

[pnwmom]

1. Tell me again how you know outspoken evangelists comprise the majority

of Christians or people of any faith?

Tell me again why we "quiet Christians" should be blamed for these people any more than polite, thoughtful atheists should be blamed for those atheists who issue nasty, broad-based slurs?

I don't hold you responsible for the actions of all atheists. I would expect the same consideration from you.

[darkstar3]

2. In order:

1. Because they are all I see, everywhere I go. They protest in front of Planned Parenthood. They buy billboard space in several places on every highway I've driven in this country. They write "God Bless" on restaurant receipts and inject God into their greetings, their thank-yous, and their goodbyes. They are legion, and they represent all but TWO of the Christians I know. TWO, out of thousands. So yeah, I'm not going to believe they're anything other than the majority.

2. I never said I was holding you responsible or that I was blaming you somehow for the actions of these assholes. I simply wish to make the point, firmly, that the claims made most often here to dismiss atheist criticism, (namely that this is merely "cartoon theology" or that these people represent a fringe minority and "real Christians" are quiet people with personal faiths) are bull.

[pnwmom]

3. Those people are attention hoggers and grabbers.

Doesn't mean they're in the majority.

[darkstar3]

4. "TWO out of thousands."

Maybe you missed that part. I have no problem with the idea that my experience may be skewed in one direction, but I don't accept the idea that TWO quiet Christians with personal faiths out of thousands of evangelicals that I"ve interacted with could in any way translate to those TWO turning out to be in the majority.

Maybe worldwide, but not here in the land of the bully. Not here in the only country on earth where complete strangers can walk up to you on the street, in a coffee shop, or in line at an amusement park and begin telling you about how Jesus can save you from eternal hellfire, without expecting everyone within earshot to laugh hysterically. Not here where the Great Commission means "be sure to convert those heathens at the competing church down the street."

[pnwmom]

7. But most of the ones who aren't evangelists aren't TRYING to engage you

or anyone else in conversations about religion. So why should you be surprised you're not meeting them?

[darkstar3]

10. A. See #6.

B. You assume that because some Christian doesn't try to convert me that I wouldn't know they are Christian. Wouldn't facts like church attendance, social functions with the church, and so on be a dead fucking giveaway? Or are you trying to tell me that there are Christians in this country who are keeping it on the down low? :I need a smiley for one raised eyebrow:

[laconicsax]

6. No, but the fact that polls and surveys consistently show them to be a majority does.

Your schtick got old a while ago.

[dmallind]

85. Surveys exist. DU is not reflective of reality

Despite DU Xian disavowals for example, 74% of Americans (not just Christians or even just theists) believe in a hell and 67% believe in an actually existing Devil. We can easily infer that the 7% difference are the slightly kinder/gentler Christians who simply think nonbelievers are just shunned rather than tortured by God post-mortem.

Whether the "oh we're all just gentle kind souls who believe God will love and embrace all" DU believers want this to be true or not, that roughly 10-1 split (67% to 7%) is about the right ratio of responses from, and dealings with, Christians that atheists experience. Maybe 1 in 10 don't think we will be, and should be, fried in eternal agony for not thinking like they do.

Why don't believers see the same vile contempt among their brethren? 1)they normally socialize in their own congregations among the 7%ers and 2) when they encounter the 67%ers, their acknowledgement of shared Christian faith usually spares them the vitriol as the 67%er assumes the 7%er to be among the 67, or at least in no need of witnessing.

Is DU a bit better? Sure - the 7%ers are in here in greater numbers than their true ratio, just as atheists are. DU R/T is often shown to be 50% or more atheist - 6 times the most optimistic estimate of our population size. The same could well be true of liberal kinder gentler Xians, leaving only a tiny fraction of DU in the fry-em good demographic. But that doesn't mean real life is like that. DU believers (unless they are academics in science) don't meet atheists one time in two, and DU atheists (unless they live in highly liberal enclaves) sure as hell don't experience a majority of believers with thoughts of universal salvation, social justice and live-and-let-live approaches to evangelism.

It needs to be said every primary season. It needs to be said now - DU does not reflect the real world, even of Democrats, let alone Americans.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/poll_102805.pdf

[Green_Lantern]

87. wow so what about the Christians who use Planned Parenthood?

Your complaint is people saying "God bless you"?

[laconicsax]

5. The key word is "again." You've been told several times already. Why should we waste our time

showing you facts you continually reject?

[pnwmom]

9. yeah, right, I've been told. n/t

[trotsky]

18. How about you tell us how you know your Christianity is the majority, then.

Make sure to note why this is so despite surveys indicating a majority of Christians doubt evolution and believe humans were created in their present form by humans.

Thanks.

[Green_Lantern]

88. those surveys are loaded because evolution is misunderstood

As "coming from monkeys".

[laconicsax]

92. Not really...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/evolution-creationism-intelligent-design.aspx

B. Creationism, that is, the idea that God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years

Definitely true: 39%
Probably true: 27%
Probably false: 16%
Definitely false: 15%
No opinion: 3%

When asked, point blank, nearly 40% admit to being Creationists.

Here's the same poll from 2010: http://www.gallup.com/poll/145286/four-americans-believe-strict-creationism.aspx

The questions change slightly, but the number of people who say they believe "God created humans in their present form in the last 10,000 years" is still 40%.

[Green_Lantern]

95. that survey doesn't show most Christians are Creationists

It only says a slight majority of Christians believe in it and a fourth them are so out of the mainstream they don't even have a church.

Still, the creationist viewpoint, held by 60% of weekly churchgoers, is not universal even among the most highly religious group. Also, about a fourth of those who seldom or never attend church choose the creationist view

[laconicsax]

102. The claim has always been that a majority are creationists, and you acknowledge that as true.

All you have left is rationalization to exclude them from "the mainstream."

Guess what--creationism is mainstream. It is the majority belief among Christians and not the result of "those surveys [being] loaded because evolution is misunderstood." When asked, point blank what they believe, the majority of Christians choose creationism.

[Green_Lantern]

103. that survey says 40% of Americans don't believe in evolution

38% believe God guided evolution. It doesn't say they are Christians.

Still, the creationist viewpoint, held by 60% of weekly churchgoers, is not universal even among the most highly religious group.

The definition of mainstream is subjective. To me this survey shows that Christians are almost evenly divided on the issue. The article also says this has to do with political ideology of responders.

I do think there are slightly more conservative Christians than liberal Christians.

[laconicsax]

105. Stop ignoring data you don't like

Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings -- Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process, 2) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process, 3) God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so?

40% said that God created humans in the last 10,000 years. This is a separate category from the 38% who believe in 'God-guided evolution.'

Christians make up 76% of the US population (2008 ARIS). 50% of that is 38%. Even if you were to argue that 100% of American Muslims and Jews are Young Earth Creationists (which is laughably false), you'd still need a few million people to get up to the full 40%. There's no way to work it such that more than 50% of Christians are creationists. It's even worse if you use the 2008 data in conjunction with the 2008 ARIS report--44% were YECs back then.

Of course you say the definition of mainstream is subjective--liberal Christians need it to be subjective so that they can claim that their (comparatively) tiny denomination represents the majority. Mainstream means dominant (or majority), and the dominant position in American Christianity is that God magicked everything into existence within the last 10,000 years.

[Green_Lantern]

107. I never once said liberal Christians were the majority in Christianity...

But Evangelicals aren't the majority either, there are more Catholics than Evangelicals.

What's with the atheist non-believers straw man of God as a magic man in the sky?

[laconicsax]

127. Shifting the goalposts again?

I never said anything about Evangelicals as the majority. It's always been about how creationists are the majority.

When asked point blank, 40-45% of the US population self-identify as creationists. The days when there were enough Christians for that to be the minority have long since passed. As it stands now, 52-58% of Christians are Young Earth Creationists and you'd need to use Republican logic (lies) to define that majority as "outside the mainstream."

[Green_Lantern]

138. no...I'm not surprised 40% of Americans are Creationists but

I don't think it is just based on religion and true belief in Creationism but also political ideology as well.

The Catholic church has been more open to deferring to science on this.

I don't believe in evolution because that's like saying you believe in gravity. That makes it sound like it's a matter of opinion.

[laconicsax]

139. You don't think that a literal belief in the Bible is based on religion?

Uh huh. Ok. Have fun with that.

[Green_Lantern]

141. of course not...I said I don't think belief in Creationism is based on

Religion alone.

Nor do Creationists interpret the entire Bible literally, only the parts that justify their beliefs.

[laconicsax]

145. ...

:eyes:

[Green_Lantern]

147. what better symbol of the cynicism of militant atheism

Than the eye roll.

[laconicsax]

150. What better illustration of absurd hyperbole...

Than equating an eye roll to taking up arms and committing acts of violence.

[Green_Lantern]

152. militant atheism doesn't mean commiting acts of violence it

Just means a hostility to religion. The adjective militant.

[laconicsax]

154. Uh huh. Sure.

-Militant Islamists bomb embassies, buses, and assassinate artists.
-Militant Christians bomb doctors' offices, assassinate healthcare providers, and shoot up daycares.
-Militant white supremacists (who tend to also be Christian) shoot up museums, kill minorities, and use violent intimidation.
-Militant political groups bomb public places, assassinate political opponents, and kill innocent civilians.
-Militant atheists openly criticize religion, put ads on buses, and mock ridiculous beliefs.

Like the song goes, one of these things is not like the other...

[Warpy]

38. Perhaps the quiet Christians should stop being quite so quiet

and start repudiating the busybodies, moral crusaders, and others who want to push their religious dogma into civil law.

The way to gain respect is to earn it.

[cleanhippie]

39. Ok, every piece of conservative legislation has the stamp of approval from them.

We could quibble of the exact NUMBER of evangelicals, but one thing is clear; THEY are running your religion and YOU are the fringe, not the mainstream. That is reality.

[Green_Lantern]

89. so do you think Al Qaeda is running Islam?

[cleanhippie]

108. In some countries, yes, they are.

Just like here in the US, evangelicals are running Christianity (or at least speaking for it).

[laconicsax]

8. Ok, faith is a quiet, private thing.

It is because bullies and cowards can't function without somewhere to retreat to.

[Cronus Protagonist]

11. Do we have an Atheism forum?

I'd like to discuss dogma. :D

[humblebum]

12. Seems to me the only one telling someone to be silent is you. nt

[darkstar3]

13. Oh? Where?

[cleanhippie]

29. No, it seems like you are projecting. AGAIN.

[eridani]

14. I would not call this typical of Christians n/t

[darkstar3]

22. Read the subthread at the top.

[Goblinmonger]

25. Show show us some proof that your brand of Christianity

is typical. Good luck by the way. But I'd love to read it.

[eridani]

50. I'm not a Christian. I just do a lot of political work with progressive Christians n/t

[Dragonfli]

15. They are intentionally blind to the effects of their religion on the innocent

You are wasting your time trying to reach them. They refuse to see the damage being done or the effects of the "state religion" on so many innocent pregnant women, gay folks and sane people that would like science to inform our ecological priorities rather than the belief that the invisible superman will fix the environment for us.

They are even blind to the fact that Christians are trying to replace science with creationism.

These things are not private or personal but most Christians behave as if the assault on reasoned enlightenment is their job rather than an imposing and dangerous exercise in enforcing there insanity on others.

I understand your frustration believe me, but even the few that do not feel compelled to force us into their belief in fairy tales silently consent to the actions of the others all the while claiming they are no threat.

Their silence is agreement as far as I am concerned, their silence on the behavior of the so called "few" is in fact deafening and makes them complicit by any reasonable definition.

Your attempts at reasoning with them is quixotic I am afraid.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

80. I do not consent

If one of the evangelical types approaches me, I tell them I have no use for their type of Christianity and that they're giving the rest of us a bad name.

This doesn't happen very often, since I live in Minneapolis, where there are still a lot of mainline Christians (ELCA Lutherans in particular).

[Green_Lantern]

90. that's odd...I know several gay men who are religious

Didn't science hurt the environment(industrialization). Maybe we need to recognize the sacredness of nature.

[Meshuga]

16. To the individual who feels that he/she needs to save you from...

...the forces of evil in the heaven vs hell saga and spread the "good word," his/her faith is obviously not a quiet, private thing. To others, it is. I had two mormons knocking on my door at dinner time the other day and they would not go away even when I said I was not interested.

The mormon kids were only an annoyance but I think everyone has legitimate complaints about right-wing religion in this country and elsewhere. Especially with their attempts to add their revisioning of history (and their "science") in our schools and their huge influence in politics.

[TreasonousBastard]

17. Tough shit. Fire the client if you don't like it and...

show us all how you'll take the hit for the principle of the thing.

Or, just suck it up and cash the check.

Lessee now, in business settings I've heard people talk all kinds of shit about politics, economics, religion, families, friends, neighbors, immigration, the French... None of it had anything to to with the job at hand and some of it really pissed me off. Even the few times I agreed with them I didn't want to talk about it.

But, when it's over it's over and I never felt the need to bitch in public about it.

[trotsky]

19. Wow, miss the point much? n/t

[darkstar3]

21. And here we have an example of what I touched on in #4, not to mention the OP.

Thank you for proving my point.

[Ninjaneer]

23. Whooosh! n/t

[Goblinmonger]

26. Soooo move to the back of the bus

you uppity atheist?

Many of us are pretty tired of playing house negro.

[WolverineDG]

28. Bingo nt

[trotsky]

31. I wonder how you'd feel if the situation were reversed.

Considering your constant visceral reaction to atheists allegedly "proselytizing" (i.e., speaking their minds) in this forum, I really can't imagine you'd simply submit and accept your place silently.

[WolverineDG]

33. Another one who refuses to get it

Calling people idiots & morons for believing in "myths" & "fairy tales" is insulting & dismissive, not "speaking your mind."

and if an atheist started in on me, I'd say the same thing "I don't discuss religion & politics with my clients."

Now if this atheist is just as tone-deaf regarding courtesy & respect as some I've seen here & persists in calling me an idiot for believing in God, then I'll walk. (and yes, I have fired clients for insulting me)

dg

[darkstar3]

35. How very special.

First, it's special pleading to state that your myth requires more respect than any others. It's special pleading to state that anyone who calls God a myth is calling you an idiot or a moron. You are specially pleading for uncommon, unwarranted deference to your myth simply because you're in the majority.

It's also special in a different way that you turn away paying clients because you don't agree with something they say. It must be nice to live in a world where you don't need the business.

[trotsky]

36. Who is calling someone an idiot or a moron?

Those would be personal attacks/name-calling and will be deleted as per DU's rules, just as some of your posts have been deleted for containing personal attacks.

I wonder when you will start addressing atheists with the courtesy & respect you think your beliefs deserve. The first post from you in one of these threads is nearly always hostile and accusatory.

[WolverineDG]

43. Atheists do it all the time on DU

and repeatedly get away with it.

dg

[trotsky]

44. "All the time"

"Repeatedly get away with it"

Alright, you've made the claim. Back it up. It should be quite easy for you to link to just ONE post where an atheist calls you an idiot or a moron. Use DU's search feature if you want - but since it happens "all the time" it shouldn't be difficult to just pick a thread at random and find it in there.

If you fail to do this, your claim will be considered false. Thanks.

[trotsky]

58. 24 hours later, still waiting.

Would really like to see you back up the claim you made. I'm sure you don't regularly bear false witness or anything, so just wanted to remind you.

Thanks.

[Ninjaneer]

59. You just got owned by the biggest weapon

religious apologists seem to have in R/T:

The ol' hit and run. }(

My ears are still ringing from the last dozen times it happened to me.

[trotsky]

60. It would seem that way, wouldn't it?

But I'm perfectly OK with continuing to kick this thread if necessary. We atheists get bashed enough on this forum for being disrespectful and mean - how does it look when a believer makes an outlandish claim accusing atheists of a very specific behavior, and yet not one example can be given?

With this kind of behavior, and the locked thread from earlier today, I think most people will see it's not atheists ruining things.

[darkstar3]

61. Damn straight.

[trotsky]

70. 2 days. Still waiting.

Hopefully you will get a chance soon to back up your accusatory claim. Because that would be a pretty lousy thing to accuse a bunch of people of, and then have no evidence whatsoever.

[skepticscott]

76. Up to 4 days and still no response

And have you seen any atheists trying to get your post deleted for broad brushing, or any other reason? No, the atheists, who you and your ilk are fond of accusing of stifling discussion, offered you a chance to back up your claim (that's the discussion part, btw), but you seem interested in nothing but flinging poo.

[laconicsax]

77. Give it some time, I've been waiting for an answer from someone else since late 2009.

[darkstar3]

78. In light of recent activity, I'm kicking from here, because I think you make a GOOD point.

[laconicsax]

101. It's been almost a month. Surely you have an answer by now. n/t

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PassingFair]

75. If you feel like an idiot or a moron, it's your problem.

I've never called anyone an idiot or a moron.

I do believe that religion is
myth and fairy tale.

If that makes you feel like an idiot I can't help that.

[ZombieHorde]

20. Sounds like you are living in hell. Maybe you should check your pulse.

I feel for you.

[Ninjaneer]

24. Perhaps this question deserves its own thread but

what is a "modern Christian"? how does one modernize religion? these people always peddle themselves as the "new" breed (including poster #1) but I never understand why they think they have the right to reinterpret things to accommodate themselves.

I look forward to the day they interpret god right out of existence.

[WolverineDG]

27. I've had clients try to "save" me

and I always tell them I don't discuss religion or politics with clients. Sometimes I have to be rather forceful about it.

As for the "offensive" billboards, that's no different that me having to drive by billboards that use women's boobs to sell beer & cars.

dg

[darkstar3]

30. Ah, dismissal.

How expected. Your experience is the only one that matters, and I'm just another whiny, uppity, angry atheist.

You provide simply another example of how the faithful are the pushy ones here. The sermons, the billboards, and the creeping of God into the government will continue, and if you don't like it, well, ignore it or leave. But whatever you do, don't get angry and don't speak up, because then you're intolerant.

It's my country, too.

Did you ever hear the old clip called "usage of the word fuck"? It's funny how that word is so versatile, and how it can be used in almost every situation as illustrated in that clip. The piece that comes to mind right now is where they demonstrate how it can be used for dismissal: "Why don't you go outside and play hide-and-go-fuck-yourself?"

[WolverineDG]

32. No, not dismissal

Just observing how I've handled similar situations. You don't have to call people idiots & morons in order for them not to discuss religion & politics with you.

But, sorry for interrupting your pity party with a real-life example of how to handle a business situation. Carry on.

dg

[darkstar3]

34. Oh, so you pass judgment on how you think I handled the business situation?

Why don't you tell me where I was unprofessional in any way when I allowed the client to say whatever he wanted as I worked? Why don't you tell me how I handled the situation poorly when I didn't explain to him the myriad of fallacies he was invoking, or the contradictions in his arguments? Why don't you tell me how, when I left the client smiling and waving, I handled the situation poorly?

The only thing you're providing is a real-life example of how speaking out about my disagreement is unwelcome, even here, where anonymity and equality under the board rules gives us all an uncommon ability to express ourselves.

It's not OK for anyone to shove their religion in my face, and it's not OK to tell people who don't believe like you that they should just suck it up and deal. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be a better example of American Democratic ideals.

ETA: And it IS dismissal, whatever you'd like to call it, because you're trying to dismiss my very valid points by unfairly painting me as an unprofessional, angry reactionary. You are exemplifying the very problem I've tried to call attention several times in this forum, and in this thread.

[cleanhippie]

40. WHERE has anyone called you an "idiot & moron"? WHERE?

I see you keep making that accusation, but have yet to see any evidence of it. Wait, that sounds familiar.

[On the Road]

41. "They will not be silenced

...by those who would paint us simply as 'angry atheists.'"

You mean you're not an angry atheist?

:hide:

[Hissyspit]

47. I think the word 'simply' was significant.

[Pacifist Patriot]

42. Faith may be a quiet private thing, but religion is not.

I think the problem may be in assuming they are the same. In my experience, sometimes they aren't even related.

[AlecBGreen]

45. I feel for you DS3

I have been in similar situations but with politics, not religion, being pushed down my throat. It was NOT pleasant. :( Sorry.

It is a fine line for me personally. I feel like I have the best news in the world to share. My life now, as a believer, is simply incomparable to my old life. Its indescribable. I believe that Jesus IS LIFE, that the road I am now walking is one of true salvation (no, not the 'kindergarden theology' kind ;) ) and I can give my personal testimony to how it has changed me for the better. So how do I share this with others w/o being pushy? Actually that comes easy for me. I am a non-confrontational person by nature, so I dont have this burning desire to impose my beliefs on others. Many Christians are not the same. They have the attitude that "YOU MUST BELIEVE NOW OR YOU WILL GO TO HELL!!!1!" Thats not me. Even so, I feel like I am being pulled in two directions at once and it isnt easy. My wife is not a Christian.

Anyway, shpiel over. Sorry you had to go through that. I remember what its like to be proseletyzed in that way. Its not a pleasant experience. I applaud your restraint. Hang in there. :hug:

[westerebus]

46. Next time don't wear the god is dead T shirt.

It's like honey to ants. Before you know it they are all over you.

Then you smack yourself upside the head and say what the hell is up with these dam ants?

Heellloooo. They're ants. It's what they do.

You must live deeper in the south than I do.

When I get a god bless you from some one, I just say thank you.

To me it's not worth the energy to get upset at.

Having done 12 years of catholic school, truly a penance for some ungodly transgression in another life, I'm pretty immune to it.

Just kidding about the T shirt.

[Mariana]

48. DS3 probably wouldn't get upset about it

or even mention it at all if it only happened once in a while. It doesn't. It goes on and on and on it does get old.

My daughter has told me about these things that have happened, and continue to happen, at her public high school. This is just a few examples of what goes on:

Every morning, a student recites the pledge of allegiance over the intercom. Every morning, one phrase gets a very clear, deliberate emphasis - : "...one nation, UNDER GOD!!!, indivisible..."

The members of the largest Christian club at the school try to recruit new members. If a student declines, at least some of the members will respond by saying, "Why not? Aren't you a Christian?" They make sure to say this loudly so others will hear.

A new student in one of her classes was asked by another student first what her name was, then where she was from, and then where she went to church. When she replied that she didn't, a group of students told her that was bad not to go to church and that she needed to become a Christian. The new student was shocked and embarrassed.

Today, in her US History class, they were discussing Supreme Court decisions. Some students complained that the Supreme Court made it illegal for them to pray at school - when the teacher asked the class it turned out that most of them believed this. The teacher explained that it's not true, students may pray in school all they want during breaks and the moment of silence. Some of the students continued to insist that they are being persecuted (my daughter said several used that word) because they aren't allowed to disrupt lessons by praying out loud during class time.

Sigh.

[darkstar3]

49. I was forced to attend Baccalaureate services, led by a pastor, in the public high school gym,

one week before graduation. Those who did not attend were not allowed to walk at graduation.

The examples from the real world go on, and on, and on. Here, however, we are repeatedly told that these countless examples represent only a tiny minority.

[Meshuga]

52. Was this a private or public school?

If it is a public school then it is outrageous given the fact that these services are not allowed to be sponsored by public schools (so I thought) and they are not even allowed to be performed at the school. It was your right not to go and still be able to walk at graduation.

[darkstar3]

54. It was a public school, but that didn't stop them from violating the law when they felt like it.

And in a tiny community where homogeny is the rule, rocking the boat creates pariahs. The funny thing about the service was that, at the time, I was still a Christian, so I didn't care as much, but I still asked my mother how they managed to get away with it. Her answer was "nobody cares." I'm sure somebody did care, looking back, but if they'd raised a stink about it their lives would have changed drastically. They wouldn't have been able to get their mail, since the postmaster was also a psycho-fundy motorcylce minister. They wouldn't have been able to do business at the only bank in town. They wouldn't have been welcome in just about any establishment in town, and would be forced to drive to the next town 20 minutes away to find goods and services.

You don't fuck with a small southern town.

[Meshuga]

56. It is a lose-lose situation for whoever has a problem with it

But this bending of the rules is attempted everywhere. There was a case here in DC metro regarding chaplains at the NHI a few years back and the person making the complaint still came out as the trouble maker and lost his job.

[westerebus]

53. I see it here too.

And it does get old. I don't think I attended any function that wasn't blessed or prayed for. It is part of southern society and it's not going to change any time soon. The deeper you go the more inclusive it becomes.

I was asked if I was saved? I said from what?

That person asked did I accept JC as my lord and savior? I said I thought god knew all his creatures?

That lead to what church do you attend? I said I hadn't found a pastor I liked.

The reply to that was is that sweet tea in the pitcher? Doctor says I have to watch my sugar.

It is sweet? Good. Pass it over here. Dam doctors don't know what's good for you anyway.

That pretty much sums it up as far as I'm concerned.

[LAGC]

51. darkstar, I think your main problem is you lie on the fringes of the Bible Belt.

So its not surprising that many of the people you interact with on a daily basis are loud-mouthed evangelical X-ians, a problem I suspect endemic to most of the South.

I mean, even here in ultra-conservative Idaho where I live, its more of a secular conservatism as it is in most Western states. Sure, the religious crowd contributes to the conservatism but they aren't nearly as vocal as they are down there. (As I've seen first hand from several business trips to Georgia.)

I really don't know what to tell you. You could always move to a more liberal/libertarian area, but if all the non-believers did that, the X-ian conquest down there would be complete.

But if you choose to stay, you can work to make a difference. I'm not saying you should vocally object every time some X-ian pushes his views on you, especially in a business setting where it can cost you. Obviously you have to choose your battles.

But you can make a difference, just by sharing your views with other people when the time is right, and changing the world one person at a time. I mean, it took many generations for the South to end up like it is. Its going take some time to reverse the damage and liberalize more views down there. Just be patient and steadfast, and do your part when you can.

Bit by bit we can change the world, even if it doesn't happen as fast as we would like it to. Those of us who live in Red states have no shortage of opportunity for dialogue, even if it seems daunting at times.

[darkstar3]

55. With luck, I'll be moving soon.

I inject reason where I can, but I have to be sure that my target audience is receptive before I can do so. You would think that in the biggest city in the state, where votes ALWAYS go blue, that I wouldn't have to worry about stuff like this, but much like another poster contributed above, the question of "where do you go to church" is generally #3-#5 on the "getting to know you" list. Most people here believe that your church says just about everything they need to know about you, and if you don't have one, well, that's all they need to know, too.

[Green_Lantern]

91. you're in Stl...aren't we a pretty Catholic city?

I have really only encountered a handful of Evangelicals.

[cleanhippie]

109. What makes it a "Catholic city"?

[Green_Lantern]

114. very large population of Catholics and many Catholic churches

There are 198.

[cleanhippie]

115. So its a city with many catholics and catholic churches, not a "Catholic city".

Got it, thanks for the clarification.

[Green_Lantern]

117. I meant the same thing..

[cleanhippie]

120. Ok, no problem. Its just that those two things are not the same.

I just wanted to be sure we are on the same page about that.

[Green_Lantern]

122. I'm just saying I don't think we are a mecca(irony) of Evangelicals

Or even close.

[cleanhippie]

124. I guess its all just a matter pf perspective.

To a non-believer, nearly ALL believers are evangelical in some way. From that perspective, nearly EVERY place in this country is a "mecca" of evangelicals, some just more-so than others.

[Green_Lantern]

132. true but then we could say many atheists are evangelical

When they argue against religion. If they weren't evangelical they wouldn't care what Christians did.

[cleanhippie]

144. No, thats a false equivalency.

Most atheists are simply refuting the claims made by believers. If believers kept their beliefs to themselves and did not try to push it on others, there would not be any discussion at all.

Evangelicalism starts with the believers. Any actions by atheist are just RE-actions to that evangelicalism.

[Green_Lantern]

146. again we keep coming back to atheists wanting Christians to

Keep their beliefs to themselves...which means remaining silent. You're right...that type of atheism isn't evangelical because it doesn't seek converts, it just demands that people with opposing views keep quiet.

It is reactionary and dictatorial, not evangelical.

[darkstar3]

156. If you cannot see the mile of space between keeping silent and open evangelism,

then you need to re-examine your position.

Then again, this blind spot of yours does explain how so many people on your side of the fence accuse atheists of "evangelism" whenever we open our mouths...

[laconicsax]

157. +1

[Manifestor_of_Light]

57. We must have a serious vampire problem here in the South.

I see women wearing silver cross necklaces, silver cross earrings, silver cross bracelets, even carrying purses with silver crosses outlined with big tacky rhinestones.

Some people have huge wooden crosses out in their front yards. Like my next door neighbor.

I never knew vampires were a problem here.

I have to plant some garlic in my garden, I guess.


:sarcasm:

[kwassa]

135. Haven't you watched "True Blood" on HBO?

The South is full of vampires!

[Kolesar]

62. In Yankee-Ohio, Christians are not so obnoxious

Although some of them don't get it.
Yankee Ohio is NE Ohio and NW Ohio and was originally settled by New Englanders.

[jeepnstein]

63. I'm very public with my witness.

Generally, you will find a Bible on my desk at work. I don't hit anyone over the head with it, however. If you inquire about my schedule you will find that several large blocks of my week are taken by the Church and that is not negotiable. Beyond that I prefer to let my life and my conduct be a witness. No bumper stickers, t-shirts, jewelry, coffee mugs, or other forms of merchandising for me, thank you very much. My taste in music does make it quite obvious some times but I'd never have Jango playing in my office during a meeting.

If someone invites the conversation I am more than willing to share. That happens far more than I ever thought it would when I was just beginning my Christian walk. Life's too short to spend it evangelizing to someone who really doesn't want to hear.

No way would I blow two hours of my employer's time discussing religion. As a Christian I am required to give my employer a day's work.

As far as "angry atheists" go I find them as much fun as "angry Christians", "angry sports fans", "angry winos" or any other angry type. There's far too much anger in the world for my liking these days. Plain old every day atheists are fine by me. We all get to make our own choices.

We're told to "not hide our lights under a bushel" or some such quote depending on the translation you pick. We're also told not to be obnoxious. It's a fine line that some folks just can't seem to master, self included. I don't buy into your thinking that my faith is supposed to be an intensely held personal secret. That would kind of be a complete failure to follow Scripture.

[darkstar3]

64. Where did I say

that your "faith is supposed to be an intensely held personal secret."

I didn't.

I did, however, clearly state that a standardized argument used in this forum is bull. That argument, BTW, is that Christians who evangelize like this are a minority, and that people with real faith in and love for their God have a personal and quiet relationship with him that they don't feel the need to push on others.

A Bible on your desk at work? Why? Is it a conversation piece?

[jeepnstein]

65. It can be.

A conversation piece that is. You'd be surprise, or maybe not, by the number of people who never saw one that was actually used. It's never been used as a bludgeon and I've never had an atheist go up in spontaneous combustion from it being there.

The tone of your rant clearly implied you are weary of having any reference to the Christian Church cross your path. It is no stretch for me to believe you would be happier if people such as myself never spoke of our faith, ever, in public. I can't say I disagree with you at times. I, too, grow weary of the folks who rattle on about the Church and their personal version of it. My highly unscientific analysis of such people is that the ones who talk the most study it the least. I'm willing to bet you could back me up on that hypothesis.

[darkstar3]

66. Oh they study, and quite a bit, but they don't corroborate sources.

Certainly I would be happier, and I suspect many would be, if Christian references disappeared from the public scene. I cannot deny that. But I'm not actively seeking it, because I recognize that everyone should have a chance to say their piece. My rant is more about the fact that the said pieces all seem to come from one side in the "real world", and I'm suffering from message fatigue.

I'm not surprised your Bible on your desk is a conversation piece, but that's not really why I asked if it was. I'm interested in knowing the root cause of your keeping it there. Is it to start conversations, or for some other reason?

[jeepnstein]

67. Fair enough.

It's not a prop or "coffee table book". I find myself reading it on my lunch hour or when I'm pinned down to the office pulling extra hours doing tedious upgrades. Since I'm not in an hourly position I get the pleasure of spending extra time at work with nobody else in the building. I used to keep a guitar around, too, but it's at home getting ready for front porch duty this summer. I have bits of me scattered around the office. My Bible, a guitar, maybe a bit of Grateful Dead memorabilia, police memorabilia, campaign buttons, and lots of junk computer parts; it's all part of who I am these days or who I used to be.

Message fatigue. Yeah, I know what you mean. We get bombed with all sorts of messages these days and they don't always fall on willing ears. Since I'm a non-denominational sort of Christian I often get hammered by the more charismatic types about how everyone's got it all wrong but them. Just because you're an atheist don't think for a minute you are the only target of the bores.

[darkstar3]

71. Oh I know I'm not the only target,

hence my quote in #4: "Not here where the Great Commission means "be sure to convert those heathens at the competing church down the street.""

I'm glad that your Bible is there because you read it, and not because you feel that displaying it is a badge of honor and a method for spreading the "good word." If it is simply a part of your life, then it belongs where other parts of your life may be found. If it were simply the baited hook of evangelism, then it would have no reason to be in the workplace.

Sometimes the intent behind the display of religion is more important than the display itself. This is why billboards, City Hall nativity scenes, and evangelical lectures fall into the "wrong" category. Not because they are displays of religion, but because of the message and intent behind them.

Edit: OK, City Hall nativity scenes actually ARE wrong because they are a display of religion on publicly funded property, but I still think the point stands.

[Angry Dragon]

79. I enjoyed reading your posts in this thread.............

[Manifestor_of_Light]

68. I'll tell you about good Christian music.

Stuff I played and sang back when I was in orchestra and choirs.

It's almost all in Latin and was written by the great ones.

Mozart Requiem Mass
Berlioz Requiem Mass
Missa Solemnis by Beethoven
Mass in C by Beethoven
A German Requiem by Brahms
Missa Secunda by Hans Leo Hassler
The Creation by Haydn
Elijah by Mendelssohn
Cantique de Jean Racine, by Gabriel Faure
Alleluia, by Randall Thompson

Lux aeterna, Requiem aeternam (Eternal Rest) by Sir Edward Elgar
The music was the Nimrod Variation in the Enigma Variations. It is often played and sung on Remembrance Day in England, which is the same as our Veterans Day, Nov. 11th.
I had a recording of this played at my father's funeral. Then I saw the Tallis Scholars, and told a lady who was a member of that group about playing the Lux aeterna at my father's funeral. She said, "I think you did well," and that brought me to tears. Because she was a member of the finest a capella group in the world.

Nowadays the good Christian music is performed in concert halls, not in churches. I guess since even the Catholics have decided that God understands English, contrary to their previous policy that he only hears prayers in Latin.

[laconicsax]

69. Don't forget Bach!

The B-minor mass, St. Matthew's Passion, Magnificat, and hundreds of chorales are fantastic works of art.

The first part of Mahler's 8th symphony is based on Veni Creator Spiritus and it isn't too shabby either.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

72. I forgot Bach. Sorry.

Speaking of Mahler, at the beginning of one of the movements of the First Symphony, there's a famous string bass solo which is way up in treble clef.
It's a minor rendition of Frere Jacque. I think he was flipping off the church a bit with that. Then it goes into a clarinet dominated gypsy or klezmer sounding caravan.

I like Mahler's First Symphony and think everything he wrote after that (that I've heard anyway) is way too much Romantic Wretched Excess.

There's a wonderful DVD out on Deutsche Gramophon of Gustavo Dudamel conducting the LA philharmonic in Mahler's First. And it's in the strange concert hall (Walt Disney Hall) designed by Frank Gehry.

Gustavo is a cool dude. And he has wild hair which is important for a conductor.

[laconicsax]

73. It's the 2nd movement.

I've read that the minor version of Frere Jacque was the way it was always sung in Vienna at the time.

I've seen the 1st movement of that performance on pbs.org. Pretty good playing.

[LAGC]

74. I love Lux Aeterna.

I just wish we could keep the baby (certain religious music) and throw out the rest of the bath water (dogma, superstition).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

81. Correction: It's not performed in evangelical churches

Even small Lutheran and Episcopal churches can have some fine music programs.

I attended a tiny Episcopal church in Portland, and my recent visit happened to coincide with the memorial service for someone I knew, so I sang with my former choir. The music: "Oh How Amiable" by Ralph Vaughan Williams and John Tavener's "Funeral Ikos."

My current choir (in a much larger church) regularly does works by Bach, Handel, Victoria, Poulenc, Palestrina, Orlando de Lasso, Benjamin Britten, William Walton, Herbert Howells (our director is from England...), Marcel Dupré, Pierre Villette, Aaron Copeland, Ned Rorem, and a host of others.

But "contemporary Christian music," especially the "torch songs for Jesus" genre?

Bleecccch.

[iris27]

83. "Torch songs for Jesus," lol...that is such a

perfect description of those songs where you can't quite tell if they're singing about God or a girl. I love it!

[darkstar3]

82. An update:

What is it with truckers and Jesus?

I drove from Saint Louis to Tulsa today, and I passed more trucks than not with LARGE bumper stickers on their back doors, all of them with evangelical messages. Everything from the simple "Jesus" to small-font messages like "Let all your work reflect the love that is found through Jesus Christ." The worst one was actually a truck without any brand name on it whatsoever, just the words "Jesus Christ is Lord...not a swear word" written in giant red letters on both sides and the back.

And what is it with billboards and religion?

On the same drive I passed at least 40 billboards about God. The bright green ones just said "Jesus". Several were about the evils of abortion. Many were advertisements for local churches, some of which were unintentionally funny due to their depictions of grunge guitarists and creepy car-salesman-style smiles. Some, though, were rather notable, like the one that said "By their fruits you shall know them...attend the church of your choice this week." There was also the church sign that used Bible verses visually like exit numbers...

So this continuing visual advertisement for Christianity was one thing, but it doesn't even count the number of bumper stickers on standard vehicles that shouted evangelical messages, or the number of Jesus fish trim additions. I spent six hours in the car today, and I'd be willing to bet dollars to pesos that the longest stretch between religious advertisements was five minutes.

Yet there are still many who try to tell me that faith is a quiet, private thing. There are many who believe that the vast majority of Americans don't care much about religion. The blindness is either willful, or a psychological phenomenon worth studying.

[laconicsax]

84. Even if it's willful, it's worth studying. n/t

[Green_Lantern]

86. who said faith had to be a quiet and private thing?

Faith should be personal but I don't think it should be hidden and kept in the dark. But for decrying the caricature of atheists as angry atheists you sure seem angry.

Why not just tell the guy you're not comfortable being preached too rather than take a blanket stance against exercise of religious freedom.

I'm opposed to pressuring atheists to stay silent but it seems to me you want Christians to be silent.

[darkstar3]

93. That is, of course, bullshit.

Firstly, because many Xtian posters here have told the atheists who frequent this forum that they cannot possibly be persecuted or confronted with daily displays of religion because true faith is a quiet and private thing, and of course no Xtian deviates from the personal experience of those who post on this board.

Secondly, because I never asked anyone to be silent. I simply wish to be granted the same consideration that Xtians seem to ALWAYS expect of me. If I were to go around Nietsche style shouting "God never existed, you fools!", I'd be a crass son-of-a-bitch, and people would complain about me constantly. Yet every time an atheist complains about the proselytizing they experience on a frequent basis, they are told that their complaints are baseless.

You may not even realize it, but you just hit the persecuted Christian meme. Your majority tells me that I must believe. I hold my tongue, due to social circumstances, and bitch about it later on a public discussion board, only to have people from your majority tell me that I'm being oppressive and that I'm just trying to silence Christians. It's quite a tactic, so effective that it ingrains itself into even supposedly liberal and tolerant Christians, but its effectiveness is irrelevant in the face of it being complete bullshit.

[Green_Lantern]

96. why do you say Xtian...do you think replacing Christ with X

Gets under my skin?

Are you sure "many Christian posters" here deny that Christian fundamentalist can be confrontational and want to legislate narrow morality? I can't imagine many people on DU denying that. Fundies are confrontational with other Christians so I'm sure they really go off on atheists.

I've been proselytized at a Chili's restaurant so I'm not going to doubt that you've been subjected to it.

Now that you've actually explained that you just want the courtesy of Christians to respect that you're an atheist I completely agree with you.

Next time don't start the OP implying Christians should be quiet and private.

I can say I prefer Jesus's message of love to a Nazi like Nietzsche. I'm disabled so I doubt he'd have much use for me.

[iris27]

97. It's an abbreviation, derived from the Greek (chi). Why would an abbreviation get under your skin?

The church I grew up attending had the Chi Rho (XP) plastered everywhere.

[Green_Lantern]

98. some atheists and even Christians think saying Xtian is

Replacing the word Christ.

[iris27]

99. Well, then they aren't very educated on the history of

the usage.

[dimbear]

106. Since Christ is a title or job description, abbreviating it is just as offensive as

abbreviating the word mistress with mrs.

[cleanhippie]

110. Who cares? If one wants to type xtian, why should it be a point of contention?

Or do you also oppose xmas, x-country, and x-men too?

[Green_Lantern]

112. I don't oppose someone saying Xtian I'm just amused

When atheists do it thinking it's a screw you to Christians when it actually honors Jesus.

[cleanhippie]

113. Are you clairvoyant? How do you know what someone is thinking?

Seems like you may be projecting a little, no?

[Green_Lantern]

118. not really...It is Occam's razor...I just doubt they are doing it with

The intent of honoring the divinity of Christ.

[cleanhippie]

119. Yeah, I think that goes without saying, as an atheist does not believe in that.

But you claimed it was supposed to be a subtle insult of some kind, right?

You claimed to know "When atheists do it thinking it's a screw you to Christians".

How do you know that? Why would you think that?

[Green_Lantern]

121. "screw you" was the wrong description to use..I meant to say

It always seemed to be a way to get under the skin of Christians to me.

I don't think it is hateful just as a gentle ribbing.

[cleanhippie]

123. Hmm, ok. I do it simply as an abbreviation.

its just easier to type.



It DOES seem to get under some peoples skin, though. Not really sure why.

[dmallind]

134. Really? I must be doing it wrong...

...because I only use it because it's shorter to type - no more loaded with meaning than Fred or Joe are.

[frogmarch]

142. One of my Pilgrim ancestors, whose

given name was Christopher, signed his name “Xfer.” Maybe he used the Greek X meaning "christ" for the Latin word “christo” as in Unio cum Christo (Union with Christ).

Xfer = Christo+fer/pher.

In his journals, he identified himself as a Xtian and his religion as Xtianity.

Using X (and Xp) for “Christ” goes back at least as far as the 1400s, a couple of centuries before my distant great-grandfather Xfer was even born.

Most of us atheists don't substitute X for "Christ" to diss Jesus or Christianity. X is just faster to type.

[KaoriMitsubishi]

94. The so-called quiet xians aren't quiet either.

All you have to do is mention how nasty xians are and the "quiet ones" start babbling about stirring all xians in the same pot.

[Green_Lantern]

100. stereotyping isn't a good thing..

Do you think all Muslims are terrorists?

[cleanhippie]

111. ^^^^ You point was just made! ^^^^^

:rofl:

You sure called that one!

[Green_Lantern]

116. just like the OP proved our point about angry atheists wanting Christians..

To be silent.

The right atheists seem to think they have of never being exposed to anything religious is incompatible with the First Amendment.

[cleanhippie]

125. I think you are fabricating things, friend. The OP never stated any of what you claim..

Perhaps you should take those points up with the OP. I'm sure he is willing to clarify any misunderstanding for you.

[kwassa]

128. Excellent point!

[laconicsax]

129. Freedom of religion cannot exist without freedom from religion.

If you lived somewhere where Christianity was the minority religion, you'd probably want a reprieve from public displays of the majority religion.

[Green_Lantern]

133. no...you're wrong..freedom from religion would mean

You aren't exposed to religion at all. If you are willing to let Christians wear crosses, read the Bible in public, etc. then that's not freedom FROM religion. I agree that non-believers shouldn't be coerced to take part in religion.

If I lived in Saudi Arabia I'd expect to see public displays of Islam. Islam doesn't have any concept of separating religious life and daily activity.

[laconicsax]

136. LOL!

It is your freedom to not participate in other religions which allows you to participate in your religion.

[Green_Lantern]

137. freedom from religion would mean no public display of religion..

That is completely different from a right to take part in my religion.

Secondly I don't think I have to worry about my religion of Catholicism being banned here.

[laconicsax]

140. It really doesn't.

Freedom of religion is the freedom to practice a religion without hinderance. In order to do so, a person must be free from having to participate in other religions (free from religion). Why do you not understand this?

[Green_Lantern]

143. that doesn't make sense

If freedom to exercise a religion is the same as being free from having to participate in other religions then the 1st amendment is being redundant when it says:" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". All we'd need is the second half.

Saying free exercise of religion means being free from participating in other religions and equal to freedom from religion makes as much sense as saying going to a bar and choosing to smoke a cigar or not smoke at all means I'm free of smoke.

[laconicsax]

148. It doesn't make sense because you don't understand the issue.

I realize this may be difficult, but imagine yourself as a member of a minority (non-Christian) religion. Everywhere you go, you are inundated with the majority religion. This doesn't simply send the message that other people believe something foreign to you, it sends the message that you are an outsider; your beliefs are not welcome. It is intimidation, albeit (presumably) unintentional.

When someone is intimidated in this manner, it is difficult to express yourself openly, and there's constant pressure to conform. Feeling pressure to abandon your religion does not lend itself to having freedom of religion. This is why freedom FROM religion is necessary for there to be freedom of religion. It isn't simply a matter of not having it in public, but a matter of having to deal with it in the privacy of your own home. Turn on the TV, radio, or log on to the Internet: Christianity is endorsed everywhere and charactures of minority religions are common.

I speak to this from past experience as a member of a minority religion and current experience as someone with no religion.

[Green_Lantern]

149. No...I really do understand the issue because my religious views

Are not traditional Christian views by any means. But the 1st Amendment protection for freedom of religion is really just a limit on government coercion, not a protection against societal or individual pressure.

It kind of sounds like you want to regulate what people think rather than convince them to change their minds.

I can't judge your experiences which probably explain your beliefs.

[laconicsax]

151. You belong to the single largest religious denomination in the US!

That's one hell of a minority.

[Green_Lantern]

153. I'm not saying mainstream Roman Catholic beliefs are a minority..

I would say my views are a minority even within Catholicism. Enough to warrant excommunication.

Weren't you one of the ones saying liberal Christians are a minority?

I do understand societal and familial pressure on the subject.

If you were Jewish or a Muslim I can see the difficulty but not if you're a white Gentile atheist. Then I'd say it is just playing the victim.

[laconicsax]

155. Good grief. n/t

[Manifestor_of_Light]

104. We had student assemblies with JAMES ROBISON, famous evangelist.

This was in high school in the 1970s.
We all had to listen to his drivel in the gym.
He ranted about "the best friend you'll ever have" without ever mentioning the word "Jesus".
That's how they got away with it.

He was an asshole then and he's an asshole now.

Where I live the first thing people ask you is "Where do you go to church?"

I should have said "Our Lady of None of Your Goddamned Business".

:banghead:

[iris27]

126. Best one of those I ever heard (maybe it was here on DU somewhere?) was

"I attend the Church of the Fluffed Pillow." :rofl:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

130. Unitarians worship the giver of life -- the coffeepot.

I met my guy at a large urban U-U church. I know all the jokes.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

131. Unitarians worship the giver of life -- the coffeepot.

I met my guy at a large urban U-U church. I know all the jokes.