My brother's 3rd grader called out her teacher in class.

[PassingFair]

They were being told that god made the world in
6 days, and she said that the earth was created
by a "big bang" and that there was no evidence of
"god".

She was sent to the Principals office and told
to NEVER say that there was no god.

Now, news of the "incident" has spread, and there
has been a letter writing and e-mail campaign against
my niece by parents who say they will pull their
children from school if she is not "removed".

My brother and sister-in-law send her to this
Catholic school because the public school system
here is underfunded and DANGEROUS. Private school
fees are out of the question.

This is a PRIME EXAMPLE of why we must NEVER
allow public funding of religious schools.

[Bertha Venation]

1. What the hell?

they will pull their children from school if she is not "removed".

What the hell kind of thing is this to threaten, let alone do?

Quick! Stamp out all forms of independent thinking by 3rd grade! If we don't we'll have godless anarchy in this country! And pray for the poor little girl's soul, too. Obviously her parents are beyond reaching with the truth of the Gospel.

:eyes:

[PassingFair]

4. My brother is an atheist and his wife is a Biologist who still goes to church.

I don't think they have any legal recourse,
since they DO have her in this Catholic School.

The school has called my sister-in-law in for
a conference about the "situation".

They have NOT yet expelled her.

I think my brother should be copied on the
e-mails so these cowardly bastards can be
up front with their fears.

[angstlessk]

7. relax, though I agree no public funding for religious schools, I went to catholic school

for 8 years and am an athiest. I became an athiest when the preiest told me my cat would not be in heaven when I got there, but Jesus would be,..hell I loved my cat a hell of a lot more then Jesus when I was 10!

[PassingFair]

44. My husband went to Catholic schools...

and my sister went to a Lutheran school.

As far as I know, there was never a letter
writing campaign taken against either of them.

[Why Syzygy]

61. There will be animals in paradise,

otherwise it wouldn't be paradise. That's when the lion lays down with the lamb, for example.
That priest was wrong.

[Warpy]

230. I can remember being afraid not to believe

but when I was 10, a stuffed shirt of a priest came in and told the class that women had a duty to die in childbirth to save their babies because those babies might be boys.

Well, I had only a hazy idea of childbirth at the age of 10, but I knew what boys were and I knew I damned well wasn't going to die to make any more of them.

I was great at hell raising. I was in public school the next year.

I'd decided the Catholic god was an asshole long before then and realized prayers were directed to Mary and all the saints because their god was such an asshole.

That priest was defrocked two years later when he was caught shagging one of the teachers at the school. He married her and I've always felt deeply sorry for the woman.

[asjr]

27. Glad to see Bertha Venation back. That

is my very favorite user name!

[Bertha Venation]

108. heh heh

;)

[rd_kent]

371. Well, if it is a PRIVATE school

then they can be as ignorant as they want to be. Its nice to hear that a 3rd grader was smart enough to question BS when they heard it though!

[madaboutharry]

2. Not much has changed since

The Inquisition.

[Critters2]

6. Bullshit. The Catholic Church does NOT teach a literal

interpretation of the 6 day creation story.

That's why I'm suspicious of this whole brouhaha. Catholics are not fundamentalists about creationism.

And just maybe atheists shouldn't send their kids to religious schools.

[madaboutharry]

9. I wasn't talking about the Catholic Church, I was

talking about the way some people think.

[PassingFair]

16. Are you calling me a liar?

"And just maybe atheists shouldn't send their kids to religious schools. "

And maybe when we have finished de-funding and
punishing the public schools, we can all exalt
in our new system!

[Critters2]

18. Sending kids to private schools helps to defund the system.

If you don't like private religious schools teaching religion, you should send your kids to public schools. You do NOT have the right to expect religious schools to teach things they don't believe.

[PassingFair]

21. Do they have a right to accept public funding?

Not with this type of crap.

[Critters2]

23. I don't think they do.

They do, however, have the right to teach their faith.

[Why Syzygy]

64. I'm glad to

see you posting :hi: You have a lot to share.

[Critters2]

99. Thanks! But lunch time is over! Back to work!

This has been a fund diversion, tho. :evilgrin:

[JerseygirlCT]

75. Good points. It sure surprised me to read that

Never, ever ran into a creationist in my 12 years of Catholic school!

[Dorian Gray]

350. And of course...

there is that. :) Thanks for pointing that out.

[smoogatz]

3. Catholic school probably isn't the best choice for your niece.

But you're right--public funding of religious edumacation is a terrible idea.

[Sebass1271]

71. christian private schools are the best answer for your niece

not saying they aren't perfect, but they are not as strict as catholic schools... i sent my son to christian school for five years and did not have a problem with them and i am not christian i was actually raised catholic...

[Critters2]

73. Ummm, Catholics are Christian. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

81. Amazing that some still don't get that, isn't it?

It seems to be a rather common thought and speech pattern in certain parts of the country.

[Critters2]

85. Just stunning. nt

[polmaven]

105. Actually,

around my neck of the woods, you would think, listening to news stories around the Chrisian holidays, that Catholics are the ONLY Christians.

[Sebass1271]

119. If you listen to some christians here where i live, you would

think they "hate" catholics..

[JerseygirlCT]

180. LOL - bit of that here, too

The whole northeast is very Catholic. Where I grew up, there were Jews and there were Catholics. Protestants were the exotic species!

[barbtries]

228. i grew up in a neighborhood like that

except it was catholics and mormons who outnumbered the protestants. my family was the weirdest of all: we didn't attend any church.

[JerseygirlCT]

318. My best friend when I was very young was quite exotic to me:

mother Jewish, father I'm not sure. The family was UU. I remember wondering about whether they celebrated Christmas and Easter. (Of course, the distinguisher - if they were Jewish, no Christmas. If they celebrated Christmas but weren't Catholic??? What could that mean??? lol)

[Dorian Gray]

351. Me too

(and in NJ, too!)

[Sebass1271]

83. uhmm no. there is a big difference between them..

catholics believe in saints.. christians don't... they only believe in jesus and god, they believe saints existed however they don't glorify them like catholics do.

trust me, i went to a catholic school, priests are not allowed to married.. in christians schools, they can have a family..

[Critters2]

86. They believe Jesus is the Christ.

Hence, Christian. Whether priests can marry is NOT a doctrinal issue. And Orthodox also venerate the saints. Orthodoxy is the faith of James, the brother of Jesus. Are you suggesting he wasn't Christian?

[smoogatz]

96. Ahhhh...

:popcorn:

[Sebass1271]

101. i am not suggesting james wasn't christian

i am saying it depends on the demonination of christianity.. there are lutherans, evangelics and so forth that do not call themselves "catholics" it all depends on the denomination. I sent my son to a lutheran christian school and they were well aware that i was not christian and respected that fact..

[JerseygirlCT]

95. Umm. no - Catholics ARE Christians

That term (Christian) emcompasses R. Catholics (and other Catholics), as well as members of Orthodox churches.

Johnny-come-lately (in terms of Christianity) Protestants do not have exclusive use of the term. In fact, but for their forebears in Catholicism, they wouldn't exist.

[Sebass1271]

102. catholics are christians however, ask an evangelic if he/she

is catholic and wait for her/his response...

[Goblinmonger]

113. All squares are rectangles

but not all rectangles are squares.

You do get that, right?

[Sebass1271]

116. I hope you get that as well..

[Goblinmonger]

126. OK, here it is

Catholics are squares.
Christians are rectangles.

All Squares (catholics) are rectangles (Christians), but not all rectangles (Christians) are squares (catholics). Pretty consistent with my previous post(s).

[JerseygirlCT]

177. And they wouldn't be Catholics, now would they?

This isn't really that hard:

Christianity = Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Gnostics, and so on and so on.

They are all sub-sets of the whole.

[polmaven]

107. Ummmm...I am a United Methodist

and the name of my local church is St. Stephen's.

[Sebass1271]

112. The christian school my son attended was called

"alpha & Omega".. with a church also called the same..what is your point? I am not discussing denomination's church names...

[polmaven]

159. My point is that in the post

to which I responded, you implied that Catholics are the only denomination which believes in Saints...I am pointing out that is incorrect. Most Christian denominations believe in Saints. Why would we name a church after a Saint if we don't believe in them? Over react much?

By the way, we celebrate All Saints' Day as well.

[Goblinmonger]

111. Wow. Just wow.

Catholics are Christians. Jesus. They could argue they were the first organized Christian religion.

Trust me, I went to a Catholic seminary.

I hope you realize how ignorant you are sounding.

[Sebass1271]

114. never said they weren't.. however, there are many

different denominations for christianity with all having their own private schools..

[Goblinmonger]

122. I'm calling bullshit.

You said "catholics believe in saints.. christians don't... they only believe in jesus and god, they believe saints existed however they don't glorify them like catholics do." Now you realize you looked like a doofus talking out his ass and rather than admit you were wrong you are going with "I didn't say that." Not buying it.

[Sebass1271]

128. have you ever visited a christian church? NOT CATHOLIC??

[Goblinmonger]

138. Yes.

What's your point? This is about whether Catholics are Christian. Keep your eye on the ball. You said they weren't. I'm saying you are wrong. I know plenty of Protestants of various sects that would roll their eyes at your claim that Catholics aren't Christian. Sure their are dogmatic differences, that's why there were splits in the first place, but they are all Christian.

[Sebass1271]

166. my point was on their differences not that they were not christians

the schools are different as well in their teachings - read my posts again-

[BurtWorm]

323. Are you using the word "christian" when you really mean protestant?

You know what a protestant is, right?

[JerseygirlCT]

179. Oh dear... Brick wall time

If Goblin visited a Catholic church, then Goblin DID visit a Christian church. Are you just having us on, or are you really this thick?

[davidinalameda]

217. I'm thinking the poster is that thick

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

234. "Never said they weren't?" IT'S RIGHT THERE IN POST #83! Do you think we all are idiots?

Critters2: Ummm, Catholics are Christian. nt

You: uhmm no. there is a big difference between them.. catholics believe in saints.. christians don't... they only believe in jesus and god, they believe saints existed however they don't glorify them like catholics do. trust me, i went to a catholic school, priests are not allowed to married.. in christians schools, they can have a family..

Who do you think you're fooling?

[muriel_volestrangler]

235. "do you think?" would be the more basic question (nt)

[TechBear_Seattle]

173. Actually, the Orthodox have a stronger historical claim

Orthodox Christians still hold to the Nicene Creed as written at the Council of Nicaea I in 325, amended by the Council of Constantinople I in 381, and upheld by the councils Ephesus (431), Chalcedon (451), Constantinople II (553), Constantinople III (680) and Nicaea II (787). The Roman Catholic Church, and all derived churches (including the Protestant ones,) hold to the heretical view that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son.

[JerseygirlCT]

182. What you weren't going to leave that one for Knitter?

:)

[ZombieHorde]

127. The New Testament has saints, in one of the Crucifixion stories they rise from their graves and

wonder around. Believing certain aspects of the Christian Holy Bible does not make you less Christian.

[Sebass1271]

133. you missinterpreted my comments... you can't deny

the fact there are differences...

[ZombieHorde]

153. I agree there are differences between different groups of Christians,

such as Catholics, Baptists, Amish, Lutheran, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Presbyterians, etc., but they're all Christians.

If you disagree, then please offer your definition of the word Christian.

[Critters2]

202. Except the Presbyterians, of course.

I kid. :)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

233. Bravely ignoring generations of tradition.

[ProgrezivIndie]

224. "Ummm, Catholics are Christian" correctamundo

Christian = a follower of Christ/Christ's Teachings

I've met many a person who claims to be "christian" but very few who actually demonstrate that they actually follow of Christ/Christ's Teachings.

As to the original topic under discussion... I say the school should CALL THEIR BLUFF... i.e., LET the UNchristian parents who are threatening to pull their kids from the school... GO AHEAD you jerks! Where will they then send their children... to the "dangerous" PUBLIC school (as it was described here)?

[PassingFair]

76. I know, the local Quaker school is very expensive.

Private secular ones even more so.

Like I said, it's not my kid.

I am just astonished at the behavior
of the other parents.

I would hope that they would tell their
children to show their "faith" by example.

Instead they institute a campaign to
drive an 8 year old from her classroom.

:eyes:

[smoogatz]

89. Unitarian schools are free, but no one's sure

if they really exist.

[JerseygirlCT]

193. LOL!!!! nt

[JerseygirlCT]

79. I suspect that depends on the denomination

Non-denominational or S. Baptist schools are more likely to teach that stuff.

Lutheran or other mainline Protestant schools are not.

[smoogatz]

94. Yep.

We're lucky--we have a montessori.

[Critters2]

5. First of all, Catholics don't believe a literal 6-day interpretation of Genesis.

Haven't in a long time. Catholics accept the role of science in creation. So, the teacher was wrong in terms of Catholic doctrine, if she actually was teaching that.

Secondly, it's just rude to send a kid to a private school and encourage that kid to challenge the faith of that religious tradition. If they don't want their child to get a religious education, they have no business sending her to a religious school.

There's nothing progressive about being rude.

[PassingFair]

10. The PRINCIPAL admits that the church "goes along" with the big bang.

The teacher doesn't.

If she was MY kid, she would NEVER go to
parochial school. My girls have had
ENOUGH TROUBLE in public school.

"We're starting a CHRISTIAN club,
and YOU CAN'T be in it!"

This 6 day claim was made in a regular
class, not in SUNDAY SCHOOL.

What's RUDE is to treat a child like
a pariah for having a different view.

If the child was Jewish or Muslim, there
would be much made of her "different faith".

Her NON-FAITH, however, is unacceptable.

This school takes money from public schools
for sports programs and speech therapy.

I think that should STOP.

[Critters2]

11. A religious school teaching religion! The horror!

:eyes:

[PassingFair]

13. A LETTER WRITING campaign against an EIGHT-YEAR OLD...

who has different views?

That IS a horror.

[Critters2]

15. It's their faith. They have a right to teach it and believe it.

Your relatives should stop being assholes, and enroll their kid in public school.

[PassingFair]

17. Now you're calling an eight year old an ASSHOLE?

Is ANY dissension allowed in your schools?

Or is it just on this topic?

[Critters2]

20. My schools? I'm a supporter of public schools,

and of the right of religious institutions to teach their faith.

I'm calling the 8 year old's parents assholes for sending the kid to a religious school and then bitching when they find out the school teaches religion. Like they didn't see that coming.

Assholes.

[PassingFair]

24. They "opt out" of the mass, etc....

They did NOT know that a difference of OPINION
would TERRIFY the school system.

You toss around the word ASSHOLE as if you were one.

[Critters2]

25. They didn't know that Catholics would disagree with atheists?

See, that's pretty much the definition of "asshole".

[PassingFair]

26. They DON'T allow the disagreement.

THAT is the definition of ASSHOLE.

Especially when parents are up in arms
against a LITTLE GIRL.

http://vwt.d2g.com:8081/vwt.jpg

[Critters2]

28. Grow the hell up. It's a religious school teaching religion.

Her parents aren't taking some stand for free speech or something. They're just behaving like spoiled children, and teaching their child to be the same. If they don't like that school they should pull their child. It's a Catholic school, for fuck's sake, that apparently enrolled a child whose parents don't like Catholics.

Hell, it's a private school. They have the right to send their standards.

[PassingFair]

30. Her mother IS Catholic.

And ANY parent or school who would react
this way to a different opinion is a
HORROR SHOW, as far as I'm concerned.

Their "standards" suck eggs.

I must REPEAT, that the school has not
expelled the child.

The PARENTS of other children are calling
for her expulsion.

"...for fuck's sake."

[Critters2]

33. What part of "private, religious school" do you not get? nt

[PassingFair]

35. What part of COMMON DECENCY do YOU not get?

:eyes:

[Critters2]

36. I get the part of common decency that says you don't go into

a religious institution and then bitch about it being religious.

[PassingFair]

39. SHUN THE NON-BELIEVER!!!!

Would it be alright for a Jewish student
to admit that he doesn't believe in Jesus's
divinity?

Would it be OK to express doubt or
SCIENTIFIC THEORY?

[Critters2]

43. A Jewish child questioning Jesus' divinity should expect to be challenged

in a Catholic school. As to doubting a scientific theory, again, the Catholic church doesn't teach creationism. But in a fundie school, it would be expected that the child would learn and accept creationism.

Why can't this poor suffering child go to a public school? Wouldn't get enough martyr points?

[PassingFair]

45. The child is not suffering. She is learning about tolerance.

YOUR brand of it.

[Critters2]

46. I'm tolerant. I'm tolerant of religous institutions teaching their faith.

And of the non-religious to avoid religious institutions. I don't expect people of other faiths, or of no faith, to bend to my beliefs.

See, that's what tolerance is.

[PassingFair]

50. Absolute Conformity.

Hope that works well for you.

[Critters2]

52. Nothing of the kind. Tolerance of people to build their own

institutions and run them as they see fit. I don't expect Catholics to behave like Protestants, or atheists.

[PassingFair]

53. Or to allow conflicting views.

Again, good luck with that.

[Critters2]

54. What defines a religion is shared views.

Your relatives don't seem bright enough to get this.

[PassingFair]

56. Again, my sister in law is CATHOLIC.

I wouldn't CARE to belong to ANY
group that didn't allow me to
voice differences and ask questions.

I guess you go along with EVERY doctrine
and dot and tittle of your religion.

Good for you.

[Critters2]

60. Actually, one of the things that defines my faith is that we aren't

expected to go along with doctrine that closely. It's why I've chosen my faith, as opposed to, say, Catholicism, which is much more dogmatic. But your family has chosen to send their child to a school run by a dogmatic faith. They shouldn't be surprised to encounter dogma.

[PassingFair]

66. And a third grader should be subjected to a letter-writing campaign.

Because she believes in scientific theory.

Not surprised to "encounter dogma"...
surprised to be HOUNDED from her
classroom for voicing an opinion.

A THIRD GRADER.

[Critters2]

67. Yeah. Catholicism in a Catholic school. The nerve! nt

[ZombieHorde]

131. I believe the witch hunt is the problem, not the difference in cosmologies.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

147. How can we be sure there really is a witch hunt?

The OP is getting spun up on third hand information and clearly cannot have both sides of the story. The lack of rational discussion impeaches them further.

[PassingFair]

158. You can't believe everything on a message board.

Why bother posting in this thread at all?

Your comments are a waste of time.

[ZombieHorde]

161. We can't be certain the OP is telling the truth,

but the letter campaign described in the OP, whether real or fictitious, is a description of a modern day witch hunt, albeit a non violent one.

[ellenfl]

42. i don't see that the parents are

"bitching when they find out the school teaches religion".

the op hasn't said that anywhere in this thread. in fact, the parents' response and attitude has not even been stated. if their assholeness is based on what we have been told . . . well, your criteria seems to be a little light. :eyes:

ellen fl

[Sebass1271]

77. you are being rude and if you can't offer good and constructive

opinions without being insulting don't do it. Too bad a lot of atheists react this way against people that odn't have their point of views...

[Critters2]

82. A. I'm not an atheist. B. I have offered constructive criticism--

to wit: enroll the kid in public schools.

[PassingFair]

84. Constructive criticism?

You called her parents ASSHOLES.

[Critters2]

88. Right. That wasn't the constructive part.

That was the "plain as the nose on your face" part.

[PassingFair]

93. No. That was the RUDE part. nt/

[Sebass1271]

78. you are being rude and if you can't offer good and constructive

opinions without being insulting don't do it. Too bad a lot of atheists react this way against people that odn't have their point of views...

[Why Syzygy]

103. She isn't an atheist. nt

[charlie]

104. Atheist? *snort*

She's a minister. So much for your uncharitable assumption.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

255. But gee, if someoen behaves badly, they MUST be atheist! -nt

[Name removed]

200. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PassingFair]

19. I agree that the child shouldn't be around the ...

ASSHOLES in this Catholic School.

[Critters2]

22. That's why we have public schools,

which, apparently aren't prestigous enough for you. I guess you get to choose--prestige or a secular education.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

47. Per the OP...

My brother and sister-in-law send her to this Catholic school because the public school system here is underfunded and DANGEROUS. Private school fees are out of the question.

Of course to say that the Catholic school is not a private schools is a bit strange.

[Critters2]

49. One reason public schools are underfunded is people

opting out.

And, doesn't it seem strange that one of the most prestigious cities on the planet has schools that are too dangerous for this kid to attend?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

63. Disagree

On the whole private schools save the public system money. If they were not there the increase in demand for more buildings (capital investment) and staff (reoccurring costs) would be higher with no increase in funding. I base this on the current California structure.

[Critters2]

Schools receive per capita funding. More kids equals more funds,

yet the greater the pool of funds, the more efficiently it can be spent.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

70. The per captia funding comes out of a fixed pool

More students means smaller amounts per student. Also capital improvements are managed separately.

[Sebass1271]

110. Wrong. More kids don't mean more funds..if the school is

underfunded it will not matter if they encounter higher registrations.. here in florida the public education system is in shambles, overcrowded and underfunded because of the state's financial problems...

and you don't want to know what happens when schools are underfunded..

[PassingFair]

51. Private SECULAR school.

Feel better, Mr. StrawProfessor?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

57. The relgious schools are underwritten by the sponsoring church, and it makes a real difference in

the cost. Secular schools do cost more. Just as President Obama about the high school he went to or the one his children attend

[hedgehog]

231. Maybe the Catholic school is cheaper because it is partially supported

by the donations of parishioners who expect the schools to not only teach the Catholic faith but provide a Catholic culture?

[ScreamingMeemie]

343. Personally knowing one of them.

I agree. The principal is an asshole.

[Goblinmonger]

115. As much as I dislike what the Catholic church does

I have to agree with you. It's their school. They can teach what they want. If you don't like it, don't go there. Not like anyone is holding a gun to your head.

[PassingFair]

118. Would you join in a witch-hunt e-mail campaign against

a third grader?

THAT is my beef here.

[Sebass1271]

124. it is similar to what they are doing to P. Obama

they have created a whitch hunt to cancel his commencement speech next month.. they can be brutal...- don't be surprised about their actions.. i was raised catholic and lost respect for that religion a long time ago..

[Critters2]

203. Who's "they"? The university is not even considering canceling him.

Contrary to what the OP would have us believe, Catholics have historically supported freedom of thought in academic settings.

[Goblinmonger]

130. She said there is no god.

I can understand why people would be a little pissed about that. Catholic schools are generally perceived to be an echo chamber. If I had said that at the seminary, they would ask me to leave. Go to a school that isn't an echo chamber and you can say what you want.

[PassingFair]

134. Would you participate in a letter writing campaign....

if a Jewish child expressed the opinion
that Jesus was not the son of god?

Just because it DOES happen doesn't
make it right.

Not at all.

This is an EIGHT YEAR OLD, not a
seminary student, by the way.

[Goblinmonger]

139. I, personally, would not give two shits what some kid said

in my child's class. That being said, I would expect that the Catholic school would not want a third grader talking back to the teacher saying that Jesus was not the son of god. I would hope that they would deal with the differences knowing that there was a Jew in the classroom, but certainly not something they have to do as a private school.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

155. You argue facts not in evidence with extensive use of strawmen and hyperbole

[ZombieHorde]

142. She's a third grader, would you be offended if a third grader

claimed the Moon was made of cheese? I would guess that very, very few parents, if any, would threaten to pull their kids out of a school because one kid claimed the Moon was made of cheese.

(I am assuming you don't believe the Moon is made of cheese.)

[Goblinmonger]

152. Again, I wouldn't give two shits what she said

in my child's classroom. I can deal with my own kid. But if she was at the LunaCheesist School and said the moon was not made out of cheese, I would expect a similar reaction. It's their school. They get to teach whatever crazy shit they want in there. It's that whole first amendment thing.

[PassingFair]

162. You might EXPECT it.

But I will never EXCUSE it.

We're not arguing the same point here.

I don't agree with putting children
in religious schools. My children
go to public schools.

This is why.

[ZombieHorde]

168. I am not describing my point well.

I have no concerns about the school. Forget about the school.

My concern is with the parents who are writing the letters. What kind of person would write that sort of letter?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

170. There is no way to be sure that is actually happening

the poster has clearly impeached their own credibility

[PassingFair]

171. WTF ever!

"clearly"

:eyes:

[muriel_volestrangler]

232. That sounds like a roundabout accusation of lying

I see nothing to cast their credibility into doubt. Your claims "has clearly impeached their own credibility" seems to boil down to "I don't believe the OP, so I think it's a lie".

Where is your 'clear' evidence?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

238. Consider the full scenario

The OP is claiming this is a major issue based on 3rd and 4th hand information that has been filtered through several people. Pointing out the lack of direct information and that they can not have the complete story incitesd outrage. Later the OP started comparing this Ryan White (extreme hyperbole). Finally the OP said they would get more information and report back.

I am not the only one thinking this does not pass the smell test.

[PassingFair]

243. You need to clear your nasal passages.

Better?


This happened YESTERDAY.

The "3rd or 4th hand information"
comes from my BROTHER, the FATHER
of the child.

He has not called me today, and I
am SUPPOSED to be working, as is he.

I promise I'll update when I find
out more about what the school/church
intends to do.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

248. Any you need to understand that hypole based on 3rd and 4th hand data is going to raise questions

[PassingFair]

251. Do you want signed affidavits?

Guess we will all have to settle for HYPOLE.

:crazy:

[dread]

258. Well nothing like being a full fledged idiot.

What part of first hand don't you understand?

teacher tells her brother what his child did and he in turn tells her.

Frankly I'm a little surprised at your lack of understanding, and brings in to question your "phd" status.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

260. Which is 3rd hand data...

[dread]

264. How do you figure?

Teacher/Student/parent to Sister.

First hand.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

269. It goes like this

1st Hand - Actual participants (teacher, student, other students in part) AKA primary sources
2nd Hand - Told about the events by a participant (Principal (in part) parents in part, other students in part)
3rd hand - Told about the events by a 2nd hand person (Parents in part, other students parents in part)
4th hand - Information passed by the OP

The OP is reporting (and filtering which is inherent in human nature) what came from her brother. It can be no better than second hand (things where the brother was a direct participant) and mostly 3rd or 4th hand.

[PassingFair]

272. Unlike the direct word of god from your bible.

:crazy: :crazy:

I'll believe my brother.

You must have faith.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

274. My bible? I have several copies and have read it, but no sentient would consider me a believer

[dread]

283. A phd...really?

I disagree and so does webster and several others.

Her brother who partook in the discussion is the source, she is first hand. She heard the story first hand.

The event leading up to the christian justice is irrelevant.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

293. If you wish to decrease the ordinals by 1, feel free

But the fact remains the OP is not a primary participant, does not have access to most of the primary participants, and is getting all their information through others.

You might want to check your definitions further. When you get data from someone else, it considered 2nd hand

My CV includes a BS, MA, MS, and a PhD

[Critters2]

297. If she heard it from someone else, that is at best secondhand.

Or, as they say in legal circles, "hearsay".

[muriel_volestrangler]

280. It's still an accusation of lying

and we have the story closer than we normally do on DU; yet you call it false, purely on the grounds you don't believe it. Your overwhelming contribution to this thread has been to call the OP a lie, repeatedly. You are a waste of space here. There's no point it trying to discuss this with you - you are showing a lot of bad faith here.

[PassingFair]

288. !

:applause:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

308. Actually its not

The OP posted what she she believes she had been told about a situation. Whether it is complete, true, or accurate is questionable. Not because she is a liar, but because she does not have access to both sides and most of the primary participants. That is an important distinction. All of her data is 2nd and 3rd hand at best. When questioned about things that did not seem to make sense, she got defensive and strident, to the point of hyperbole. That did not help at all. Her insistence on outrage while clearly not having the full picture further impeaches her position.

Most of the personal stories I see on DU are a lot tighter than this one. They also do not have near the level of hyperbole and calls for outrage. Regardless, lying requires intent. I don't see that here

[olegramps]

367. I didn't know that Limbaugh posted on here, but I guess I was wrong agin.

I am always suspect about someone who claims to have numerous degrees to support their point of view. Boy, am I not impressed.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

370. Thats a helluva a thing to say about the OP

Up thread someone asked...so I told them. It has nothing to do with this topic and thread.

[PassingFair]

172. You GET it!

The school is "coping" with the un-believer.

(A product of a MIXED marriage of a Catholic
and an Agnostic) HORRORS.

The parents are pressuring them to expel my
niece.

I hope it ends in them withdrawing the child.

She will have learned her lesson the hard way.

[Why Syzygy]

186. It is really going to boil down

to the adeptness of the administration. Receiving threatening letters is only one part of the equation. What matters is the admin's reaction.

[PassingFair]

188. I agree. As far as the administration goes.

But it matters to me that there
are parents who think this is
an appropriate or humane reaction.

[Why Syzygy]

195. It could be assumed

it is limited to two or three very vocal zealots. We have examples of what a handful of antagonists can accomplish.

[PassingFair]

196. Three zealots do NOT a "campaign" make.

That's why I would want to
be copied on the complaints.

[Why Syzygy]

197. Three zealots can cause a lot of damage.

Grew up in the church as a minister's daughter. Someone intent on causing disturbance doesn't require a quorum.

[PassingFair]

198. Just saying....the principal called it a "campaign"...n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

275. No, you have been told that the principal called it a campaign

[Goblinmonger]

191. OK, I'm with you now.

Asshats. Clearly.

[moggie]

199. The kind whose faith is weak

Parents whose religious faith was firm wouldn't feel so threatened by a comment from a little kid that they needed to launch a campaign against her, particularly when she's at a school which ought to specialise in countering disbelief. Sounds like they're weak in faith, and judging by some of the Christian love displayed in this thread, they're not alone.

[laconicsax]

358. Cowards.

I can't think of a better label for people who are so insecure that a young child represents an imminent danger that must be silenced.

[Evoman]

204. Your going way too fucking far here.

Calling a family assholes, because a bunch of ignorant religious assholes can't take the fact that at 8 year old dissented with scientific information.

Honestly!

(I even more or less agree with you: religious people should be able to teach whatever stupid fucking nonsense they want).

[Why Syzygy]

206. I love it when the Atheists get all outraged about "right" and "wrong". nt

[Critters2]

207. I don't mind it. I just wish they'd use the right form of

"you're".

[Why Syzygy]

208. When there is no

higher authority than oneself, how can they go wrong! (their/there too) ;)

[Critters2]

209. So, it's grammatical free thought?

I hadn't considered that.

[Evoman]

219. So let's see here:

You have made fun of my writing, and then used it to make fun of atheists in general.

You have called a little kid and her parents assholes.

You don't agree that having a bunch of parents trying to kick a little kid out of school because of one comment is bad behaviour.



Let me guess....church minister, right?

[Critters2]

261. I have not made fun of atheists.

And I think Catholics have the right to teach Catholic doctrine in a Catholic school. I do not agree with them, but I will defend to the death their right to run their schools as they see fit. Especially when there are public schools available for children who don't agree.

[Evoman]

302. Ugh.

Catholic schools have a right to teach Catholic doctrine. Yes, I agree. Most of us agree. Who the fuck cares. What inspires most of the anger here is the fact that petty parents have started a campaign to get an 8 year old kicked out of her school because she made a comment. Who even fucking knows if it's what she believes or if her dad influenced her. Do you get that?

The fact that people like you keep defending bad behaviour and see only the wrong done to the religion should stop suprising me.

[Critters2]

304. Private schools have the right to set their own standards.

This is why we have public schools, where this child would be perfectly welcome. But, in a Catholic school, she'll be challenged when spouting atheism. Why would anyone be surprised by this?

[Evoman]

312. Challenged? Let my try again.

Challenged: School tells child to keep it down when teacher talks about god.

Challenged: teacher tells child she is wrong and why.

Challenged: Parents of the child tell her not to challenge the teacher, but to express her differences of opinion off school time.

Douchebag: Parents start a mob to get rid of 8 year old kid.

[Critters2]

313. A mob? Seriously? I thought it was 3 or 4 e-mails.

If the parents are doing their job well, the kid doesn't even know about them.

[Evoman]

319. Hyperbole, to be sure.

But it's bad behaviour. The school is in no danger from a little kid who probably isn't even secure in her atheism. So going on and on about how you would die to protect the schools right to religious teaching is ridiculous.

Again, it seems to me that in many cases like this, religious fanatics and moderates alike rally around religious rights and freedoms (even in a case where they aren't threatened) instead of looking at the real ramifications, like those of a child who may be kicked out of her school for a single comment.

[Meshuga]

210. Why should anyone have an issue with atheists being outraged about "right" and "wrong"? n/t

[dread]

212. LOL

Yeah...interesting question...

Lets recap shall we?

8yo girl says you nuns are full of shit.

They are unable to arrest this insubordination through standard methods of fear controls.

Parents are then concerned when their own children repeat what godless monkey child alleges, fearing for their imortal souls they consequently demand that the child be exorcised or they will take their funds and spawn elsewhere.

Principal responds with typical knee-jerk reaction, threatening to expel child unless she will obey sister mary of the bleeding virgin.


Oh and lets not forget the reaction of the christians on DU....athiest children are assholes....how very jesus of you.

LOL

[PassingFair]

211. What does THAT mean?

Why?

[Evoman]

218. So do I. I fucking love it. The world has gone long enough with idiot religion telling us what is

right and wrong, and fucking things up worse because of it.

[Goblinmonger]

229. Well that's pretty fucking offensive.

I mean, really, you think that because someone doesn't believe in a god they can't possibly understand or have a sense of right or wrong. Jeebus.

[laconicsax]

215. Oops! Not completely accurate.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=982

Table 2: 46% of Catholics believe in 'creationism,' which as I'm sure you're aware, is a literal, six-day interpretation of Genesis.

Just because something is Church doctrine doesn't mean that its adhered to by everyone claiming to be a member of that church.

[bananas]

227. That's not correct.

"Creationism" isn't necessarily a "literal, six-day interpretation of Genesis",
especially for Catholics: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04475a.htm

edit to add: This was already explained in post #6: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=202215&mesg_id=202221

[villager]

8. Not a Jesuit school then, but the rightwing nutty Mel Gibson type of Catholics?

i.e. Opus Dei?

[PassingFair]

12. Most prestigious school in one of the most prestigious cities on the planet.

Definitely NOT an outlier.

[Critters2]

14. What the hell makes a city prestigious? nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. I keep asking the residents of 'Frisco that. The question offends them for some reason

[PassingFair]

31. I was addressing the question about it being a "fundie" church.

This is VERY mainstream.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. Fundie Catholic? Thats an odd combination

[PassingFair]

40. See post 8, above. n/t

[Critters2]

32. Really. It's a bizarre notion. Does a presitgious city have fewer poor people?

More rich ones? Are people clamoring to get into prestigious cities like they do gated communities?

All cities have varieties of people and varieties of neighborhoods. I think the idea says more about the people who hold it than about any given city.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. Private School - Their rules. Don't like it, don't send your children there

I love it when those who flee the public system for private schools then whine when the schools they send their children to have rules and beliefs that would not be present in the public schools.

All of our kids when through public schools. It took a lot of supplemental work on the side to help ensure they had a good education. Welcome to parenthood.

[PassingFair]

37. You think these parents e-mailing about the "influence" of a

THIRD GRADER are A-OK in your book?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

41. When you go to a private school you have to play by their rules

We also only have one side of the the story, filtered through the parents and you. Have there been other incidents? How strident have the child's parents gotten? Since you are not directly involved, you may well not have all the story either.

This sounds like a bad fit. Hopefully the parents will be proactive and find another school for the child. The school can ask the child to leave or not allow them in next year. Either way, its clearly time to change.

[PassingFair]

48. I agree that it's a bad fit.

And MY kid wouldn't be there.

But it's NOT my kid.

If it was, I'd be demanding to see
the e-mails and letters from the
other parents.

And again, if this had happened to a child
of a DIFFERENT faith, instead of a child
QUESTIONING faith, they would NEVER dare
to do this in this day and age.

This underscores the need to keep vouchers
OUT of the hands of religious schools.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

55. Your demands and positions are unreasonable

There is no right to see the private correspondence

If a muslim or Jew were there, they would still be given Catholic theology, so being of a different faith would be no "protection". Its called a private school for a reason.

[PassingFair]

59. The "theology" is NOT the problem.

The parents of other children DEMANDING
that the child be removed for having
a different opinion is the problem.

Would YOU write an e-mail asking for
a child to be expelled because of an
opinion?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

68. As I pointed out before, you do not have enough information to make such claims

You do not know if there were other incidents or what has actually been said on all sides. Rabble rouse all you like, but its clear you lack all the facts and a neutral demeanor on this.

[PassingFair]

72. I have more facts than you do.

Do you think it is proper
of the other parents to try to
have the child expelled?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

92. You may, but you also have an agenda

As to your question, it depends...and neither you nor I have adequate information to answer that in this specific instance.

[PassingFair]

98. Yes, parents of other children are calling for the expulsion of

a child because she voiced an opinion.

THAT'S my "agenda".

[ProgressiveProfessor]

106. Again, you have a bias and a lack of complete knowledge of the facts

Admit it and move on

[PassingFair]

117. You are the one with "a lack of complete knowledge of the facts"

Jeez.

In fact, you have a COMPLETE LACK of knowledge of
the facts.

:rofl:

You'll have to go on faith, instinct and superstition
alone.

This is affecting my family.

YOU move on. OK?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

121. You are too deep into this to have any hope of rational discourse

Your irrationality on this is why this thread is approaching record lengths. Continue to abase your self publicly if you wish while the rest of us chuckle.

I have not brought up faith, instinct or superstition. My kids went to public schools, schools which I helped to improve. Your family abandoned the public schools and then gets upset when certain behaviors are not tolerated at private schools. Hard to take them seriously either.

[PassingFair]

125. Dream on....

Intolerance is intolerance.

This is a disgraceful way for parents to act.

[dread]

189. Interesting twist...

You suggest Passingfair is being dishonest about "facts", why?
What would be her motivation? To garner friends and favor among the faithful?

It seems to be disingenuous on your part when the crux of this matter isn't the legal rights of a private institution or the protestation of a 3rd grader but is the reactions by adults to an unruly child and the hypocrisy of a Catholic learning facility willing to shun a student because they've failed in their job to indoctrinate her.

The morality or immorality is the real issue, isn't it?

this is about money and pressure from paying parents, this is about squashing unrest before the idiot parishioners brandish pitchforks and burn "frankenstein" in the mill or have reason to donate less in the sunday tithing basket...

The actions of the nuns and the principal are typical of whats wrong with the faithful today.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

286. Again, you are assuming what is being posted is accurate

When the OP has partial 2nd hand information at best, and mostly 3rd hand data with no access to many of the primary participants.

I am not saying that the OP is a liar or is being disingenuous, but the scenario as outlined is full of assumptions based on filtered data. Hearsay and the telephone game come to mind. Add that to the the shrill hyperbole, and it makes for less than a credible environment

[dread]

289. If I said I was sleeping with the OP would it make a difference?

Theoretically speaking...god knows I'm not worthy.

[rug]

58. Why do you think it's a good idea she attend school every day in a room with a crucifix?

If she doesn't believe, how does that help her? I doubt your opinion of the local public school warrants placing her in that situation.

[PassingFair]

62. Her mother is CATHOLIC.

How many time do I have to SAY IT?

The child believes in the big bang.

She is getting the big "GANG-BANG"
here for being different.

[rug]

65. The child is not. When will you get it?

[PassingFair]

69. The child is still forming her opinions.

But thanks for telling me about her.

This will go a LONG way in teaching
her about religion, though.

[JerseygirlCT]

74. As a product of a Catholic education

That's never, ever something that would have caused concern in my schools. That is, evolution, and science as science was taught. It sat quite nicely next to a belief in God. A "teacher" posing the creationist 6 day viewpoint would have had no place there.

And yes, I was also in Catholic schools because the quality of the public schools wasn't there. Overall, they did a pretty good job with us.

[PassingFair]

80. I'm not even bitching about the "6 day" thing.

I'm bitching about the reaction.

[JerseygirlCT]

87. It just surprises me

I spent plenty of time questioning what I was taught. In many ways, that was encouraged.

My only and biggest problem were the few teachers I ran into who didn't know their subject matter. I corrected them. Which embarrassed them, and probably wasn't nice.

But the things that would get you in trouble were no questioning (politely) what you'd been taught or correcting (politely) the teacher. And as I said, creationism had no part in our curriculum!

[PassingFair]

90. It's the parents of the other children asking for her expulsion.

Makes me SICK.

[JerseygirlCT]

97. Yes, I can see why

That's some pretty nasty behavior. I hate to see adults behaving like that toward children - regardless.

[Critters2]

91. I suspect the word "politely" touches on a key element in this story. nt

[PassingFair]

100. Right, like my 8 year old niece called her teacher...

an "asshole".

:eyes:

She'll leave that to the "dogmatic" among us.

[Goblinmonger]

120. I would posit that the reaction is to the

"No God" think much more than the "Big Bang" thing. I don't think it is out of line for parents paying for a Catholic education to expect that their 8-year-old children will not be having to deal with atheist thought.

Perhaps that just me. And that's why my kids go to the big scary public school that actually has black kids in it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

123. Per the OP, the public schools were just not good enough...

BTW, I have known a number of black Catholics over the years. Many send their kids to Catholic schools.

[Goblinmonger]

136. I know there are black catholics

it was more of a local comment than nationwide. Many kids in our central Wisconsin town send their kids to the private Catholic school because of the "gang" (read: there are black kids there--or Hmong on the other side of town) problem at the public school.

I can't believe that the Catholic school is the only other option. And if it is, then it's their football and they can take the game where they want. Play the game or don't. What a shocker that the Catholics don't want to teach/deal with atheism.

[PassingFair]

137. Not a shocker.

Expected, apparently.

SHUN SHUN SHUN

[PassingFair]

129. I think it IS out of line.

As out-of-line as it was for
parents to threaten to pull
their children from Ryan White's
classroom in the 80's.

Why is this OK for people?

[Goblinmonger]

132. Was Ryan White at a private school?

It is OK for these people because this is a school that is based on a specific dogma and can hold kids to that dogma. Public schools can't (hopefully).

[PassingFair]

135. I'm not asking if its LEGAL.

I'm saying that it is immoral and inhumane.

[Goblinmonger]

140. Was he at a private school?

I'm not talking legality. I'm talking what they school is set up to do. Obviously the Ryan White situation was based on ignorance about the spread of AIDS. But I think there are different expectations of parents based on what they are paying for the education and what they believe they were purchasing with that payment.

[PassingFair]

145. Who CARES what the school is "set up to do"!

It's intolerance. It's forced ignorance.

They burned "witches", too, and the SYSTEM
was set up to do it.

Doesn't excuse the BEHAVIOR.

[Goblinmonger]

148. I know what your answer is going to be, but

LEAVE. Stop giving them your money. I wish everyone that disagrees with the Catholic church would leave and stop giving them money. Then they would be relatively powerless. And that would be good.

But by all means, give the witch burners your (I get it, your relative's) money. THAT will make things change.

[PassingFair]

154. It's not my child.

It's not my money.

It is horrendous behavior, with NO
excuse.

[Goblinmonger]

160. Then tell your relatives to leave.

Tell them to stop giving money to an organization that will continue to do such horrendous behavior. That would be my advice to them.

[PassingFair]

164. I have.

:)

I remind you that HER MOTHER IS CATHOLIC.

I identified her father as an atheist,
but he identifies as AGNOSTIC.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

141. Actually students at public schools can get in trouble for questioning some things, parents too

BTDT with a couple of my kids. It wasn't religious, but it was still dogma.

[Goblinmonger]

146. And I would be on the other side of that argument,

all things being equal, in that situation. Certainly the school has a right to stop disruption of the educational process, but the public schools couldn't do what the Catholic schools are doing in this situation.

[PassingFair]

149. The child was sent to the office where the Principal AGREED

about the big bang.

This is about the parents.

I'd like to know how many are
involved.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

151. If any...your story lacks credence

[Goblinmonger]

157. What did the principal say about the no god business?

And I don't think you have the right to know how many were involved.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

245. The OP is very short on facts and has no direct information

so any answer would be suspect, filtered through several people, including her niece.

[Why Syzygy]

165. Those parents are as concerned for their children as your niece's parents are.

Don't they have a right to be concerned? Their children are at a religious school for a reason, and probably not just to escape public school.

I was a Christian parent. I looked into a private religious school for my son. When they told me that the KJV of the Bible was The One and Only, I hit the door. He attended public school. And, as someone else mentioned, I spent a lot of time with him at home to make sure he got an education.

[PassingFair]

169. Are you KIDDING me?

Lock them up in their room, then.

Or move to Saudi Arabia.

Do they have a "right" to be concerned?

Yes.

Parents had a "right" to pull their
children from Ryan White's classroom
and demand that he be removed, too;
but it says very bad things about them.

About ignorance and fear of the "other".

[ScreamingMeemie]

342. As Christians, they should embrace the fact.

This being the Easter season, they should look upon it, if they have to, as a temptation for themselves and for their children... If they feel the need. Otherwise, they could follow Christian teachings and judge not...not cast the first stone...yadda, yadda, yadda.

[Critters2]

346. It isn't Easter season. It's Lent.

Easter begins on April 12. And all sides in this should avoid judging.

[ScreamingMeemie]

348. You go first.

Teach your flock.

In Catholic teachings, this is the Easter Season. Lent included. Or, tell my CCD instructor she was wrong since judging is your forte'.

And, using your logic, was Christ not tempted before dying on the cross? Case closed. Cheers.

[cosmik debris]

352. avoid judging?????

How many times have you used the word "asshole" or "idiots" in this single thread.

You are asking others to behave better than you behave.

[Why Syzygy]

359. Personally,

if the facts were in reality as they were presented, I think the teacher may have missed a teaching opportunity. Throwing up one's hands at the first speed bump is weak teaching. However, IIRC, the child is the only one who has said the teacher was teaching "6 day creation". That may have been her interpretation, but not the solid fact. It is late into the school year, and we also do not know what exchanges may have preceded in that classroom before this date.

I have a handicap in that I don't easily take one side against the other. I tend to perceive view points from all conceivable positions.
The mob mentality that so many cling to, especially in this thread, is not something I practice.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

150. Not for religous reasons, but dogma takes many forms

We had a teacher claim that getting outside help/tutoring in an AP Calculus class was the equivalent of cheating. It went down hill from there.

[Goblinmonger]

156. That's just crazy.

Though I teach with some people that would argue the same thing. Fortunately, most of us teaching high school are sane.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

167. We thought so too, but the teacher chose to make an issue out of it

My wife and I are both well qualified to teach calculus at the college level. We were helping out the marching band kids between the end of school and the start of practice. They were clearly understanding more and pulling ahead of the rest of the class. Teacher claimed it was unfair to the others and was the equivalent of cheating. We said he was going to report it as an honor code violation. He also claimed that before he even met with us that we could not be qualified to teach such and advanced topic. Dept head got him back in the box. His contract was not renewed (2 years experience). The kids we helped were the only ones who did really well on the AP exam.

Have other stories like that as well.

[Critters2]

201. Exactly. This is the difference between "public" and "private".

I don't understand why people don't get this.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

246. The OP is looking for outrage, not rational discourse

[PassingFair]

250. You wouldn't know rational discourse if it sat on your face and suffocated you.

If you are a professor, I ACHE for your students.

:puke:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

254. Your position does not stand up to scrutiny to the point of being embarrassing

Deal with it and move on

[Critters2]

265. LOL!!

You haven't even made an ATTEMPT at rational discourse in this entire thread. I don't think you even know the meaning of the term.

[PassingFair]

270. I posted an honest account of a situation that concerns my family.

You and the other "Christian" have responded by
calling my family "ASSHOLES" and
calling me a liar.

Is THIS the "discourse" you describe?

I give my account of a situation.

You call me a liar.

You should have left after that,
all resulting posts are just accusations.

[Critters2]

273. Sending a kid to a religous school and encouraging her to

question the existence of God at that school, and then complaining that people do appreciate that behavior, well, "assholes" may be a bit strong, but "idiots" certainly fills the bill.

[PassingFair]

279. What would you consider "encouraging her" to entail...

pray tell?

[Critters2]

291. Clearly, she's learning these positions from her atheist father,

which is fine. But to fight tooth and nail for her "right" to spout them at a religious school, well, that's encouraging her. And it puts her in too difficult a position for an 8 year old.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

278. No, you posted what you have been told about a situation...whether it is complete, true, or accurate

is questionable. Not because you are a liar, but because you do not have access to both sides and most of the primary participants. That is an important distinction. Does the terms hearsay or the telephone game mean anything to you? When questioned about things that did not seem to make sense, you got defensive and strident, to the point of hyperbole. That did not help at all. Your insistence on outrage while clearly not having the full picture further impeaches your position.

You may not like how you have been treated, but you brought it on yourself.

[PassingFair]

284. I posted what my brother told me about his daughter.

Your calling me a liar and asking me
to "prove it" is NOT participating in
discourse.

You will NEVER be satisfied by anything
I say.

The only thing I brought on myself is annoyance for
not putting you on ignore earlier.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

292. We are in partial agreement

We both agree that you have posted what you heard (or think you heard).

[ProgressiveProfessor]

143. Irrational nonsense, you are spewing nothing but hyperbole at this point

[JerseygirlCT]

183. I don't know - guess it might depend on the particular school

and to some extent the age of the child.

The idea that there's no God wouldn't have been met with the same shock and horror, I don't think, at my school. I'd bet the child would have been corrected (and as Critters pointed out above, that's fully to be expected at a religious school!), but I can't see others getting upset by their children being exposed to someone with that view...

Maybe I've just got too much distance from it all now, though!

[Why Syzygy]

109. She was reprimanded for

saying there's "no God". Certainly a large percentage of parents who send their children to the school want them taught that there is a God. She presents an obstacle to the expectations of the school and parents. It should be sufficient if she is willing to stop arguing that there is "no God". If she is unwilling to do that, she doesn't belong in that school.

[dread]

144. Arguing? Really? with an 8 yo?

It would suggest that the teachers have failed to adequately convince an 8 year old that "god" is tangible.

But to reprimand her for being outspoken about her ideas, is one thing, succumbing to the pressure of "paying parents" is quite another. It is hardly representative of the inclusive ideology the christians allegedly espouse.

None of this is surprising is it? Catholic school threatens to eject unruly child if said child doesn't accept the teaching of the penquins rote. Oh and there are no refunds either. They accepted their godless money and that's all well and good, typical bullshit from idiot catholics. The church is loosing parishioners left and right, they're closing more diocese every year, their hemorrhaging money to quell the sexually shenaggains of their repressed leaders. The hypocrisy...again. But what do you expect from a fascist organization?

[Why Syzygy]

187. The OP hasn't told us that the administration

HAS succumb to the pressure. What will they do? That's the important matter.

[PassingFair]

190. I will update when I find out what the outcome will be.

I suspect that my sister-in-law will
home-school her daughters.

She has another daughter in the school,
by the way.

No campaigns in HER classroom, though.

[54anickel]

163. Actually, according to the OP she said "no evidence of god". Then again, I'm not

sure if it was the principal or the teacher that told her to NEVER say there was no god. There are some absolutes used in the OP and to me, absolutes close your mind and are just one step away from jumping to conclusions.

That being said, I pretty much agree with your post, yet keeping the child there on some "conditional permit" is probably not really fair, or emotionally healthy for her. And who is placing that condition on her at this point? The school, or her parents who do not want to place her in the public school system? Maybe the society that placed them in this dilemma to begin with? What sort of lessons might be taken from those involved this situation?

As far as the parents writing letters, yeah right, and where are they going to take their kids if they pull them out? As the OP states, "the public school system
here is underfunded and DANGEROUS. Private school fees are out of the question."

The OP closes with "This is a PRIME EXAMPLE of why we must NEVER allow public funding of religious schools.
I can hear the letter writers saying something very similar write now, "This is a PRIME EXAMPLE of why we must NEVER allow secular children in our religious schools.

Oh yeah, can't you just feel the love? Meanwhile neither side is addressing the actual problem that their entire community faces - the underfunded and dangerous public school system. Who is getting left behind in this whole exchange?

[rrneck]

174. *sigh*

The teacher got busted by a child for teaching religion instead of science.

The child, being a child, overstated her case when she responded with a rational, scientifically based response. Unfortunately, she also called into question the existence of God. Oopsie.

If the teacher had been worth a shit, s/he would have handled the situation more artfully than punishing the child by sending her to the principal's office. Bad idea.

Instead of an education the child got the 21st century version of a heresy trial.

[PassingFair]

175. Thank you.

I am interested in how many parents are involved
so I don't have to resent the entire congregation.

The Principal characterized it as a "campaign".

[ProgressiveProfessor]

176. You are presuming that the OPs comments are somewhat factual

[rrneck]

178. Yes I am. I have nothing else to go on. In the

context of this internet forum, the facts of the matter are almost academic.

This thread has a lot more to do with principles than breaking news. Fair bet, if the OP had been in the context of a hypothetical situation the debate would be just as heated.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

252. Actually you do...

The OP is claiming this is a major issue based on 3rd and 4th hand information that has been filtered through several people. Pointing out the lack of direct information and that they can not have the complete story incited outrage. Later the OP started comparing this Ryan White (extreme hyperbole). Finally the OP said they would get more information and report back.

A post today (#243) by the OP says that the incident happened yesterday. yet there are claims of a letter writing campaign by parents. Does that make sense as a time line?

[PassingFair]

253. He found OUT about the " campaign" yesterday.

I am beginning to be irritated by your
characterization of me PERSONALLY as a
LIAR.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

259. That is not what the post said...you might want to check it and others for other mistatements

I quote:


243. You need to clear your nasal passages.



Better?


This happened YESTERDAY.

The "3rd or 4th hand information"
comes from my BROTHER, the FATHER
of the child.

He has not called me today, and I
am SUPPOSED to be working, as is he.

I promise I'll update when I find
out more about what the school/church
intends to do.

[rrneck]

356. All I really know

is that I can see text on a page. I don't know anything about anybody here in this ersatz place.

There are a few things that I prefer to assume and for which I have no reason to doubt.

Every single person that has posted here is probably pretty nice. They are all probably solid citizens who do their best to take care of others, not hurt anybody, and make the world a better place.

Did the OP get the straight story and relate it to the rest of us accurately? I expect so, but I can't say for sure, and I don't care because I don't think it matters. She was clearly upset, and as I recall there wasn't much of an effort to address her feelings on the matter.

It makes me sad to see wagons drawn into circles and insults thrown back and forth between well meaning people. We could do better.

[applegrove]

181. I had a friend who went to catholic high school. She transferred to a

really good public high school in grade 13 do get better sciences. Didn't work. She was way too far behind in math and sciences to continue so she had to transfer back to the catholic high school to finish.

[JerseygirlCT]

184. There's a huge variance - across the board, of course

between public schools, between parochial schools, between "independent" schools (the euphemism for private schools here, lol).

In my town, the public schools were the laggards. And attending the Catholic school resulted in a better education - and easier acceptances to college, as well.

I doubt there's anything that could be guaranteed across the board, though. This town's public schools are great; that one's suck. This Catholic school does a good job; that one doesn't.

[applegrove]

185. I'm in Canada so here our public schools are really good.

[JerseygirlCT]

192. Public schools here are funded in large part

through local taxes - so you can see where that goes - wealthy towns often have good schools, others need to beg for state and federal funding and still often fall short.

[applegrove]

194. Yup. We have mega cities so the tax pool is shared from wealthy neighbourhoods to poor ones.

[Evoman]

205. She probably shouldn't be in that school. That said, the religious parents are fucking assholes.

Threatened by a 8 year old atheist...ha!

[Occam Bandage]

213. I don't quite buy this story. nt

[PassingFair]

214. That's your priviledge.

I will update tomorrow when I talk to my brother.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

247. You are not alone in that position

[SidDithers]

298. As you've made abundantly fucking clear...nt

Sid

[ProgressiveProfessor]

263. self delete

double post

[davidinalameda]

216. who would have though a Catholic school principal

would tell a kid never to say that there is no God

what a surprise!

amazing

[cosmik debris]

220. Who'd have thought Christians would persecute an 8 yr old

I guess the joke is on me for believing that they were better than that.

I wonder which Bible verse they use to justify tormenting children?

[PassingFair]

221. This one?

2 Kings 2:23-24 (King James Version)

23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

236. Thats OT, which means Jews, not Xtians

[PassingFair]

237. XTians don't believe in the OT? ANY of the OT?

You might be interested in the side argument way
up thread as to what constitutes a Christian.

:rofl:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

239. Kings (and others) are historical not doctrinal

[PassingFair]

240. According to YOUR brand. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

241. Have you ever actually read the OT?

The verses you want are found in Proverbs and maybe some in Psalms.

[PassingFair]

242. I have talked to "CHRISTIANS" who believe EVERY WORD of the Old Testament.

Christians.

So how can you say that XTians don't believe
in the OT?

:crazy:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

244. You really are clueless...

Most of the Old Testament is historical in nature, describing what happened. Kings is a perfect example of that. Some Xtians believe it is inerrant,others, including many Catholics do not. However, the question was something like "what scripture do they use to justify the persecution of a 3rd grader". You chose poorly.

[PassingFair]

249. And you argue poorly.

You stated:

"Thats OT, which means Jews, not Xtians".



Now you say:


"Some XTians believe it is inerrant."



You jump back and forth and make NO sense and
contradict yourself.

MANY Christians believe in the entirety of the bible,
Old and New Testaments.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

256. Far from it...you cite Kings as an example of Xtrians persecuting children

However, there were no Xtians back then.
I point out the Kings is historical not doctrinal
You say that some Xtians believe that the OT is true. I agree
I point out your attempt at proof texting fails and suggest other places to look

Sorry if you can't keep up

[PassingFair]

257. Not "Xtrians"...

GOD persecuting children.

Sorry if you fell behind.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

262. Review the post that started this subthread (#220)

[PassingFair]

267. It asks what verse Christians would use.

We have established that MANY Christians
believe in the in-errancy of the OT.

That is an OT quote telling of the
slaughter of children for taunting
a bald guy.

But keep twisting and turning things
and calling me a liar.

[Critters2]

268. Please cite an instance when Christians have used this pericope to

endorse the persecution of children. Thank you.

[Critters2]

303. So, crickets, huh? nt

[Critters2]

277. Really. There are some pretty nasty verses in the Psalms.

I've been helped by a Girardian reading of them, but without that they can seem pretty scary. But Kings? :shrug:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

281. Indeed there are

I've read the bible cover to cover and sequentially (time line order). The latter was a more interesting approach

[davidinalameda]

225. persecute?

oh my goodness

did the principal hang the kid from his thumbs in the basement?

any sort of punishment?

is the kid still in school?

did they bust out the vat of boiling oil? that's an oldie but a goodie!

[cosmik debris]

226. That's certainly an attractive straw man

It will be a shame to see you tear it down.

oh well.

[Critters2]

271. Apparently, they read 1 Kings at her.

The monsters!

[cosmik debris]

316. The parents in question attempted to expel the girl

and alienate her from her friends. At the very least, that is mean spirited and cold hearted callous treatment of an 8 yr old.

But I guess that is the kind of treatment I should expect from followers of the man who said "suffer the little children to come unto me."

Some Christians have perverted everything Jesus said, so I shouldn't be surprised when they try to justify being mean to kids.

The fact that you are unable to open your heart to that poor child is a perfect example of how Christianity is used to promote intolerance and hate.

You are spiritually kin to Fred Phelps in your contempt for those who are different.

And you are the reason I work so hard to avoid Christians. They often fail to meet my standards of civility, and my standards are pretty low.

[Critters2]

330. I am open to the child. I think it's grossly unfair of her parents to put her

in this position. She's no more Catholic than I am, yet they enrolled her in a Catholic school. She should be in a public school. Her parents put her in a terrible situation, and I feel deeply sad for her.

But not for her parents.

[cosmik debris]

332. You have actively defended the people who are being mean to a child.

That's despicable.

[Critters2]

333. No, acatually. I've repeatedly said that all the adults in this situation

are behaving badly. One need not take either side. The parents who enrolled their child in an inappropriate school for her are wrong. It's clear that the parents of the other children should be kinder as well.

I've also pointed out that we're only hearing one side of the story.

[cosmik debris]

338. I see it differently

I don't believe any of them have behaved as badly as you have.

(asshole)

[Critters2]

339. I would never put a child in that situation.

An 8 year old child's happiness should not be sacrificed for adults trying to make a point.

[Critters2]

266. I know. Stunning, ain't it? nt

[HamdenRice]

222. This is the most interesting problems/discussions of religion ever. Why send her to Catholic school?

At first, that was my reaction. If you want to raise your child an atheist, why send her to Catholic school? Why object to religious teaching or an enforce religious consensus.

But this is not your typical atheists versus religious folk discussion. As the OPer says several times, the mother is Catholic.

Moreover, as several Catholics have pointed out, and as I understand from my brief stint in a school of theology, "orthodox" Catholicism has a pretty sophisticated view of science and its relationship to religion. A lot of early science benefited from the rigorously logical and empirical view of the physical world, especially the post reformation Catholicism after the 17th century.

So what's really going on here, is that the child and her parents actually are closer to Catholic doctrine than the nuns, principal or other parents.

Therefore, the parents had every right to send their child to Catholic school. They had every expectation that the Catholic school would engage in the sophisticated interplay between science consensus and Catholic dogma that they (the mother at least) probably experience in her own Catholic upbringing.

I think the child, however, overstepped her boundaries by saying there is no evidence of God, in a Catholic school (and the parents did as well if this is what they told her to say). She could have defended evolution and the big bang in a Catholic school; not the non-existence of God.

But if she had said that proof of God is a matter of faith and not physical evidence, she would have been on firmer footing in a Catholic environment.

There are, as Garret Hardin (a founder of modern environmentalism) once said "problems to which there are no technical solutions."

I suppose that if the family complained to higher authorities, those higher authorities would probably have a view of science and religions closer to the family than to the nuns. But, I would guess, the Catholic church's authoritarian nature would kick in to close ranks against the lay people.

Interesting problem. Interesting discussion. No solution.

[dread]

223. Just a reminder...the guilty party here is an 8 yo

Yeah...eight....been walking for 6.5 years....talking about the same...thinking?...well I'd have to know her better to make that guess. If anything shes regurgitating what shes heard at home, presumably from her father.

"I think the child, however, overstepped her boundaries by saying there is no evidence of God, in a Catholic school (and the parents did as well if this is what they told her to say). She could have defended evolution and the big bang in a Catholic school; not the non-existence of God.

But if she had said that proof of God is a matter of faith and not physical evidence, she would have been on firmer footing in a Catholic environment."

[Critters2]

276. The guilty parties are the parents who sent a child to a Catholic

school, but don't want her learning Catholicism. Really a bad spot to put a child in.

[dread]

287. Really ?

I'd say it was the catholic teachers that couldn't sell their fable to an 8 year old.

As to the parents not wanting her to learn catholicism, how could you possible know that?

To the best of the information given they paid for her to be in a safe learning environment, you're assuming they sent her there to learn church dogma. I'd imagine they knew she'd be subjected to it but thought it a burden they'd have to endure, well the father at least had to endure.

Funny you should suggest a placing a child in a catholic school is bad spot to put a child in....or is more a bad spot for the teacher to have a precocious child challenge her teaching...or is it undermining? Hmmm?

[Critters2]

290. Catholics have the right to teach Catholicism.

The parents knew this would happen when they sent the child. The responsible thing to do would have been to place her in public school.

[dread]

294. WTF are you on about?

Who is denying them the right to indoctrinate the youth?

NO ONE.

The problem is making a pariah out of an 8 year old little girl because she doesn't toe the line.

She guilty of insubordination. She's a rabble rouser. A miscreant. A heretic even and most definitely a blasphemer, with a pink my little pony.

Unable to quell the voice of an 8 year old so they threaten her and segregate her, impressive teaching skills don't ya think?

You have to ask yourself...would the fuck would jesus do?

[Critters2]

295. She's not Catholic. It's a Catholic school.

And every bad behavior is not some noble expression of rebellion.

[Why Syzygy]

299. A creationist evangelical kid disputing

a public school science teacher would not be presumed to be the heroine, is my strong suspicion.

[Critters2]

301. Exactly. Far from the noble rebellion we see in this great wise

8 year old, the child you describe would be held up to ridicule among the intelligentsia here...accused of believing in "a sky god", and "imaginary beings". Parents who wanted such a child out of class would be seen as "progressive", fighting the good fight.

It's all a matter of whose ox is being gored.

[moggie]

320. There is no heroine in this case

If an eight-year-old creationist kid disputed evolution one time in science class, and a bunch of atheist parents overreacted and demanded her expulsion, this atheist would judge those parents to be cruel idiots, and I suspect others would too.

[Critters2]

329. I'm not so certain. nt

[moggie]

337. You're a lousy judge of character n/t

[Critters2]

340. Yeah, I'm skeptical of someone on the internet

telling me one side of a story. I should try to be more naive.

[Why Syzygy]

360. You're wrong about that.

I went to school in the 60's, during the reign of Madalyn Murray O'Hair. Atheists have been so successful in removing all faith and belief practices from public schools they now find them "unsafe", and opt to send THEIR children to religious schools!

Ponder that, and then get back to me on the utopia you envision for all of society once that nasty old religion is out of the picture!

[PassingFair]

363. "the reign of Madalyn Murray O'Hair"...

:rofl:

Yeah, she was no Anita Bryant!

Religious schools can toss gay students
out, too. It's their "right".

Is THAT OK, or does this pertain only
to heretics?

Dogma does not and never DID belong
in publicly funded schools.

[moggie]

364. Ah, the inevitable whine

Even in a thread about a Christian vendetta against one child, some people have to make it about the poor persecuted Christian majority. That's not very convincing. As for safety, I wonder how some less religious countries manage to have safer secular schools than the US, or why not all public schools in the US are equally "unsafe"? Why, it's almost as if religion and discipline are two separate issues!

[PassingFair]

324. I suspect that parents of other children would NOT be calling for the fundie's EXPULSION, either.

This is not about being popular or heroic.

[Why Syzygy]

296. Maybe the parents didn't know "Catholic School" had anything to do with "Catholicism"

:shrug:

[Critters2]

300. Yeah, that's probably it.

:rofl:

[dread]

306. Is it true you are an episcopal minister?

When were you ordained? if at all.

[Critters2]

307. No. I am not an Episcopal minister. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

310. But your are clearly a hound of some sort!

Love the picture of the dog in your .sig

[Critters2]

311. That's the beagle: cute as a button, dumb as a stump, and my

best friend!

[dread]

305. I guess the Roman Catholic Church attached to school might have been too sutble? nm

Moms catholic....I'll assume the grandparents are as well, we know the dad is atheist....but the school knew this and took their money...shes a third grader...so this is what her 3rd or fourth year there? I don't think anyone was/is surprised...except by the reactions of the principal and the other catholic parents.

[Why Syzygy]

315. The parents don't surprise me.

As stated elsewhere, I grew up as a minister's daughter and know how church people can (over)react.

What is astounding is that the youngster probably believes there is a clear cut answer to the scientific predicament. Unless things take a drastic change, she is in for the same debates for the rest of her life.

[Evoman]

322. Since when is teaching that the world was made in 6 days "catholicism".

[Critters2]

334. It's a private school. Their school, they make the rules.

Don't like it? That's why God made public schools.

[Maat]

282. I like your niece's spirit!

Eh, she's an independent thinker, and that's wonderful; sending positive thoughts for the best for her your way!

[PassingFair]

285. Thank you, see my update....

:hi:

[Coyote_Bandit]

309. It's a private religious school

Religious schools are legally permitted to discriminate on the basis of religion. If they do not wish to enroll students who question the existence of God in the classroom that is certainly their right. There are consequences to students who suggest that God does not exist in such an environment - just as there are often consequences for expressions of sincere religious faith in the public educational system.

I respect your niece and her willingness to speak out and voice what she thinks in an environment where others clearly do not share her view. However, that does not mean that it is appropriate for her to remain in a private religious school. She is clearly being schooled in an inappropriate environment.

The unfortunate thing is that the child is being punished for the poor choices of her parents. There is nothing here to suggest that either the parents or the child share the religious views prevalent in this school - or that the parents desire for their child to receive religious instruction. Nor is there anything to suggest that the child was taught that some conduct and speech was unacceptable in this particular environment.

You may think that your niece is being protected from a dangerous public school environment by being placed in a religious school. In reality, she is being raised to be naive and she is being denied the early developmental life experiences that would enable her to develop the skills necessary to protect herself. Those kids in that public school are going to be the same folks she encounters in the workplace, on the streets and in the parking garage, at the movies, and at the grocery store. The kids in that public school reflect what they see in the society around them. Protecting your niece from learning how to function in that society is a tremendous disservice to her.

[Critters2]

314. Well said on all points. Nicely done! nt

[PassingFair]

321. What makes you think she needs protection?

She is learning that conformity costs.

She is learning that she is not willing to pay that price.

She is learning that the "pack" can be vicious if you
dissent.

She is learning about religion.

[Coyote_Bandit]

326. Ummmm......Give me a frickin break

I ***DON'T*** think she needs protection. I think your niece should be enrolled in a ***PUBLIC*** school.

You said your niece was sent to the private religious school because the public schools were too "dangersous".

That suggests that the "responsible" adults chose that private religious school because they thought if afforded some protection against the "dangers" of public school. Nevermind the fact that the kids in that public school simply mirror the community into which your niece will graduate. You want your niece to be naive and unprepared to recognize threats and protect herself when she enters society then by all means keep protecting her and sending her to a private school that is removed from the "dangers" of society.

A responsible and minimally knowledgeable adult would realize that a private religious school is going to provide religious instruction and is going to demand a certain level of conformity. They would also realize that non-conformity in such an environment carries a price.

Give me a frickin break. And re-read my post. Nowhere did I suggest that your niece shoud be protected from the "dangers" of public school. Quite the opposite.

[PassingFair]

327. Again, her mother is Catholic.

Her CATHOLIC grandparents have been paying
the lion's share of tuition because they
want a "catholic" education.

She GOT one.

[Coyote_Bandit]

331. From Your OP

"My brother and sister-in-law send her to this Catholic school because the public school system
here is underfunded and DANGEROUS. Private school fees are out of the question."

Protecting her from a "dangerous" public school system was, according to your own words, a consideration. Other private schools were too expensive and the public schools were too "dangerous". So some "responsible" adult opted to send this child to a Catholic school. And now all you want to do apparently is complain about the fact that a certain level of conformity was expected in a private Catholic religious school. Duh..........

Again, give me a frickin break. You are outraged because a private religious school acted in a very predictable manner. Maybe your outrage would be better directed toward the rather short-sighted "responsible" adults who made the unfortunate choice to enroll this child in this school. It was a bad decision driven by what could be described as an irrational fear.

[PassingFair]

335. The school didn't act in a despicable manner, the PARENTS did.

"certain level of conformity"?

Demanding expulsion for expressing disbelief?

If I ran an "Freethinker's" school or an
atheist's camp, and some sectarian kid
expressed belief in a god and some Freethinking
parents wrote and demanded that I expel the kid,
OR ELSE!, I would tell them to

... FUCK OFF.

I'm not OUTRAGED at the situation.
I am angry at parents whose belief
system has been threatened by an
8 year old to the extent that they
don't want their children "tainted"
by freethought.

Morally, these people do not have a leg
to stand on.

[Coyote_Bandit]

341. Like it or not

Religious schools are legally permitted to discriminate on the basis of religion. If they do not wish to enroll students who question the existence of God in the classroom that is certainly their right. There are consequences to students who suggest that God does not exist in such an environment.

There are parents who send their children to private religious schools because they want their children to recieve religious instruction. It is reasonable for them to expect that from a private religious school. The parents of the other kids who have taken offense are well within their rights. They expected religious instruction and it is being undermined by one of the students. They would not be entitled to that same expectation if all the kids were in a public school.

I suspect that what has happened to your niece is just an excuse for you to complain about the fact that some parents do in fact want to provide their children with an education which is grounded in their religious faith. Guess what? That is their right. If you or your niece disagree with ther beliefs or challenge them then they are entitled to ask you to leave.

What makes you think you are entitled to go into somebody else's space and challenge their beliefs? That is pretty damn arrogant.

The kid is entitled to hold her own beliefs and if they are inconsistent with those of the private religious school where she is being sent then she should be removed and placed in another school.

[ScreamingMeemie]

344. "The parents of the other kids"...

weren't listening in CCD.

[PassingFair]

345. I am not denying that it is legal.

I am saying it is immoral and inhumane.

I am saying I wouldn't do it to anyone's
kid.

Would you?

[Coyote_Bandit]

347. If I placed children in a private religious school

for the purpose of including religious training in their secular education and if someone in that school was undermining the faith, beliefs and morals that were being taught I would want that person removed from the environment. Assuming they were not willing to modify their behavior.

There are other taxpayer funded educational alternatives available to those who do not support the teachings of faith, beliefs and morals in that private school.

It is immoral and inhumane to stiffle speach and expression of ideas in a public forum. A ***private*** religious school is not a public forum and these institutions often exist for the primary purpose of providing training and instruction in their faith.

It is rude and arrogant to presume one has the right to go into a private place (such as a church or religious school or a home) and question, ridicule or dispute the beliefs of the people who live, work and study there.

Your niece really would be better off in a public school. She is far more likely to find friends there who are like her and share her values.

[PassingFair]

353. I agree she would be better off in a good public school.

She is not my child.

And the behavior of the other
parents is inexcusable.

It was "permissible" for
Golf Clubs to exclude blacks
and Jews, too.

Some still exclude women.

I would not have belonged
to those either.

I don't think it is ever rude
for children to "question".

[Coyote_Bandit]

354. Seems to me

that you just have a problem with the fact that private religious schools are allowed to discriminate and exclude those who question and challenge their beliefs.

Guess what? DU does much the same thing - in what arguably is a much more public forum. The only difference is that here at DU we are concerned with political beliefs rather than religious beliefs. Still, the concern is with belief systems.

Do you think that the admins should allow freepers to stay here to disrupt and challenge?

[PassingFair]

355. Is the "disrupter" an 8 year old with a different point of religious view?

Then, yes, let them stay.

Should we BAN anti-choice democrats?

[Coyote_Bandit]

357. DU admins and moderators

seem to be remarkably consistent in enforcing the rules - and in making those rules known.

The right to attend any private religious school is based on the law of contract - a contract which often incorporates such things as handbooks and honor codes - documents which generally set forth conduct expectations.

Your niece behaved in a manner which was disruptive and inappropriate in an environment intended to convey religious teachings. That doesn't mean that she did so maliciously. Odds are that she said what she did because the same "responsible" adult that made the mistake of placing her in that school did not instruct her regarding appropriate conduct, commentary and boundaries.

I blame the kids parents for the unfortunate events which transpired. They are to be faulted for (1) placing the kid in an inappropriate educational environment and for (2) failing to provide her with appropriate guidance as to what kinds of conduct and speech were and were not acceptable in that environment.

[Why Syzygy]

361. Part of the hypocrisy

I see here, is that the niece and her parents are presumed to have higher rights than the parents and the other children. Nowhere does the OP show one ounce of respect or concern for their position.

[PassingFair]

362. The heretic must be shunned.

That is what we take away.

Legal rights, are what they are.

It used to be legal to burn heretics.

I don't toss believing children out of my home.

These letter-writing parents would shun my niece.

It's their "right".

They are wrong, though.

[TreasonousBastard]

317. OK, I think I got it figured out...

Your niece argued against the 6 day thing and for the big bang and got "sent to the office" for it.

It's mainly one teacher responsible for this, and the school administration or the rest of the faculty doesn't seem too upset.

(After all, she's a third-grader, ferchrissakes, and kids do say the darndest things...)

Some parents are cleaning the local Agway out of pitchforks and torches over this and causing the usual trouble mob thinking causes.

Your brother and sister-in-law are having their "How did we get into this mess?" moment.

And, last, but not by any means least, there are some here who don't understand the situation.

Am I close?

Anyway, it sounds like it really sucks, and the proper thing that should have been done would be for a quick conference with the parents over what was said and "we're not testing her on Genesis so we'd appreciate her not arguing with Church doctrine. Even false Church doctrine."

But, that apparently wasn't done, so everyone's in deeper shit than they should be in, and, not being there and all, I have no idea what the best course of action will be. But I would hope cooler heads prevail and some way is found to calm down the enraged parents and the kid stays in school for the safe secular part of the education.

I went to Lutheran grade and high schools with Jews, Catholics, and others, and this sort of thing happened from time to time, but it was an absolute priority to put the fires out immediately.

My Lutheran high school, btw, received massive Federal funding for state of the art science labs and teaching materials thanks to Eisenhower's massive education program. It didn't seem to harm anyone at the time, and made no demands on either our religious or secular education.

[PassingFair]

325. See my update, Treasonous....

If your Lutheran school was bolstered with
public money, they should have allowed dissent
over factual matters.

My sister went to a Lutheran school in the
80's and never had a problem...

Catholic schools seem to demand full conformity.
No wonder so many good people are afraid to speak
out in their parishes (as in the build up to the
Iraq War). They have been well trained to keep
their mouths SHUT.

What do you mean by "put the fires out"?

[TreasonousBastard]

328. As someone else said, a lot has to do with the...

diocese and whoever else is running the school-- and the times. When I was a kid back in the 60's, half my friends went to Catholic school and things seemed pretty liberal then. OTOH, my father went to Catholic school for a while around the 20's and told me tales that would give a sailor nightmares.

Putting out the fires is just that-- when a situation arises that could cause trouble, deal with it as soon as possible and defuse the problem. All sorts of situations pop up with kids and their parents, and they simply can't be allowed to fester and grow into something that gets in the way of the point of a school-- which is educating the kids.

[Critters2]

336. Rome opposed the Iraq War.

The pope spoke out about it quite forcefully, really pissing off the Shrub.

[Dorian Gray]

349. Um....

Catholic school?

Sorry... what did they expect?

[Name removed]

365. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PassingFair]

366. LOL! Look, IGNORED ONES! The FREEPER agrees with you.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yes I am actively trying to expel the
believers from my daughter's public
school!

:rofl:




Yes, I had them BURNT!!!

:rofl:

[olegramps]

368. This would have never happened in my day:

Firstly, the nuns would have slapped the brat brain dead for even suggesting such a horrible thing. No God. Wham bam, no teeth and that would have been mild as to what would have happened once the kid crawled home.

[PassingFair]

369. Oh, for the good ole days, gramps!

:rofl:

The REAL good ol' days:



That'll show 'em fer thinkin!