Odd question

[varkam]

Does anyone here know much about how Hinduism is practiced in India? I read a Reuters article today that talked about the caste system and seemed to imply that it was a result of the Hindu faith. I'm not very well-read or learned on the Hindu faith, so I was wondering if anyone here could fill me in.

[SteppingRazor]

1. Not quite.

It's a lot more complicated than that, and the idea that Hinduism is the cause of the caste system is proved invalid by the fact that there are still castes among Indian Muslims and Christians.

[varkam]

3. So 'splain it to me.

What are the other variables? I'm not being flippant, I just want someone smarter than me to help me out here :shrug:

[SteppingRazor]

7. TechBear's got a great 'splanation, below n/t

[htuttle]

2. There are roughly 800-900 million Hindus in the world

One statistic I found said that about 780 million of them are in India, where the make up something like 79% of the population.

on edit:

Whoops -- I thought you asked 'How Many'.

It's my impression that the practices vary widely among a lot of different sects (dedicated to a number of different Gods).


As far as the caste system goes -- I think it has a lot more to do with the socio-political history of India (ie., North vs South, etc...) than any particular religious beliefs.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Any Hindus I have met

never discussed the caste system. I have been to Hindu ceremonies and to a Hindu temple; my husband stayed at a Hindu ashram during a tour of India in the '80s. Of course, the Hindus we are familiar with are what could be called mystical in outlook and therefore are very open. My husband and other Sufis on the the tour were asked by the leaders of the ashram to do zkr--an Islamic chant--and were asked to join in Kirtan--Hindu chants--this gives you an idea of the open mindedness of these folks.

[TechBear_Seattle]

5. Caste is mostly a social/cultural thing, not religious

As SteppingRazor points out, caste is still an issue among non-Hindu Indians.

I've seen argument that it was a part of the social structure of the Aryan invaders who began conquering India around the 17th century BCE. The Aryans were nomads, culturally related to the Indo-Europeans who covered Europe, the north and eastern Mediterranean and east into India.

Later documents (particularly the Vedas) indicate four varnas, or castes, which made up Aryan society. Each had its own privileges and proscriptions: brahmin, collectively responsible for memorizing a vast library of religious and legal texts; kshatriya, the war-lords and warriors who were the political power-wielders; vaisya, the artists, engineers and agriculturalists; and sudra, the laborers and workers. Non-Aryans existed outside this tribal system and were classed as dalit, often translated into English as "untouchable," and had no rights at all within the culture.

While the Aryans were nomadic, the varnas seem to have reflected personal status and training, with some mobility from one to another possible. After the Aryans began settling during the "Vedic period," the varnas solidified and became a matter of family status and heredity, defining a person's role in society regardless of talent or ability. Hinduism, as such, began to develop between 800 and 600 BCE when the Upanishads and various other scriptures began to supplant the Vedas in importance. By then, the varna system had become culturally entrenched. It is around this time also that the four varnas began subdividing into dozens, and finally hundreds, of different castes within a rigid hierarchy.

Many religious, social and cultural movements have challenged the varnas, but have generally had little effect outside of their own movements. As a means of social control, it has been retained in various ways by both Muslim and Christian communities within the Indian sphere of cultural influence. Although Hinduism, as a fairly direct descendant of the Aryan culture, has been the force preserving the varnas, it is incorrect to blame castes and the prejudice it fosters on Hinduism.

It is interesting to note that most other Indo-European cultures had social divisions similar to the varnas. I believe India is the only place where it remains widespread in the modern world, and where it was so strict and so long a part of the culture.

[varkam]

8. Thank you for that explanation.

So, if I understand, then the caste system is not something that is explicit or ordered within Hinduism itself but is a cultural left-over from the Aryans?

Also, are you saying that the Vedas are the scriptural basis for the caste system?

[TechBear_Seattle]

10. Well...

I am far from a Hindu specialist, just an amateur interested in cultural history, so grab your salt shaker. :hi:

Hinduism is most definitely not a monolith. It is shaped by more than a hundred upanishads ("sitting down beside," basically sermons and discourses about the nature of deity) and countless lesser writings. Some of these scriptures mandate the caste system, others mandate the abolition of caste, other still are silent on such social issues. So in a sense caste is explicitly ordered within Hinduism, much as the stoning of active homosexuals is explicitly ordered within Judaism (see Exodus 18:22.)

The Vedas supported a system known by the Sanskrit term varna, not caste per se. Varna reflects a person's position in society. While usually fixed at birth (sons inheriting a father's trade; daughters holding the status of their father with social desire not to "marry down"), it was not unheard of for a worker who was a talented artist or a farmer able to memorize and mentally organize large volumes of complex data to get "promoted" -- or for that matter, demoted -- to a different varna. It is only later that varna changed into caste, when current social position became immutable social destiny. This change parallels the evolution of Vedic religion into Hinduism and draws on the development of the doctrines of reincarnation and karma to entrench it. But again, the basis of caste existed long before Hinduism as such existed; Hinduism has only preserved and fossilized an existing social construct.

[varkam]

13. So, a useful parallel may be..

and correct me if I'm mistaken, but that while there may be sources of homophobia external to Christian scripture, Christian scripture can be used by it's followers to support and justify it. Would that be an accurate statement, in your opinion?

[TechBear_Seattle]

15. Close enough

I have trouble with the conditional in "may be sources of homophobia external to Christian scripture" -- there most definitely is, no "may" about it -- but yes. Blaming Hinduism for the caste system is rather like blaming Christianity for homophobia.

[varkam]

16. Okay, good enough.

Danke!

[Igel]

11. Any idea on how the supporters of the "out of India"

theory of the spread of IE languages handles it?

The same way, with the caste system being entirely home-grown?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

6. It originated when Indo-European invaders from the north

conquered the area and subjugated the Dravidian-speaking people who had been there before.

That's where it started--conquerors and conquered, but it was given a religious justification (Brahmins, the highest caste, are considered the priestly caste) and is now practiced all over India, regardless of whether the population is Indo-European or Dravidian.

Japan has historically had a caste system of sorts, although it's not as complex as the one in India. Certain people, namely those whose ancestors performed "unclean" tasks were referred to as Eta. They were forbidden to live among other Japanese, marry them, or take jobs not designated for their caste. Even though the caste system has been abolished, some neighborhoods are still identified as Eta (the newer term is Burakumin), and the residents suffer discrimination in their society, even though they are racially identical to other Japanese.

The Burakumin have been used as a case study for the effects of discrimination. Not surprisingly, they exhibit all the problems that racial minorities do in other countries.

[varkam]

9. I'm somewhat familiar with the Eta

by way of a friend of mine who is a student of history (among other things). Is it the case that ninjas in ancient Japan typically came from the Eta class?

[htuttle]

12. No, they were the offspring of Tengu and field crows...

ESPECIALLY the dreaded Koga Ninja!

:evilgrin:

But for what historical basis they do have that I'm aware of, there may have been some from the Eta class. However, it's been my impression that their community was even more outside Japanese society than the Eta. More like today's Travelers or Gypsies, except without the nomadic lifestyle. And with swords.

And those are the 'traditional ones', described and popularized during the 1980's in the US, of course. There have been many more who've claimed that term who don't fit this description whatsoever.

[varkam]

14. So ninjas came from a class...

even lower than the typical Eta?

[rasputin1952]

17. There is a "quasi-religious" aspect to the caste system...

It goes back so far, some of it is pretty well obscured by time.

What was posted above is essentially correct, but even though there have been attempts to break down the societal aspects, most notably by the British when they were a power in India and more recently by Ghandi, like most societies, those that have the power are not going to give it up easily. When youhave a few thousand years of social mores and essentially cannonized situations like the caste system, breaking it down is extremely difficult, bordering on the impossible in some circumstances.

The Brahmins are not about to give up thier power w/o one heck of a fight, and on the other end of the specrum, the "untouchables" have been taught they are little more than chattel from the day of their birth.

It is truly sad that these things persist, but to a lesser degree, we still have something like his here in the US, as do most other countries. There may be a day when we can look at all people as human beings deserving of respect, as optimisitic as i am that this will come about, I doubt it will be in my lifetime...I pray my son may see this...O8)