I'm tired

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

I'm tired of trying to explain Islam to other people. I'm tired of trying to defend my faith when people aren't interested in hearing about it, and only want to talk about the worst examples of people who claim to be Muslims. They don't want to talk about Muslims who are trying to build bridges, don't want to acknowledge that Sufis and other progressives are braving discrimination, intimidation, and threats of death to reach out to others in tolerance.

I know that some of my progressive Christian brothers and sisters have faced this same problem, and I empathize with them.

But I'm getting frustrated and tired.

I've decided there's no point in arguing-and posting much here any more, at least on religious issues.

[villager]

1. I acknowledge Sufis all the time!

Progressive Jewish Sunday school here... the fundies/orthos/death-lovers in every major religion seem to be in charge, of late... It's a Dark Age, and the question is, what kind of "ark" do we construct between oursleves to make it to the other side?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. Oh how sweet and oh how pleasent

it is for brothers (and sisters) to dwell as one".....
one way is maybe to Dance the Dances of Universal Peace together. That's where I learned a smattering of Hebrew (such as the Dance quoted here) and learned to appreciate the Jewish tradition and religion.

[libodem]

2. don't let the bastards wear you down

I live in Idaho, next to growing potatoes we are known for having skin-heads in northern Idaho. A wise person said to me post 9/11 that to judge all Muslims by the acts of the 9/11 terrorists would be like judging all Idaho Christians as Aryan Nation, white supremacists. Extremists are extremists. Keep your chin up.

[simcha_6]

3. You've had many bad experiences on DU?

What kinds?

[eallen]

4. Speaking as a non-believer, I applaud all religious liberals.

We are political allies. Being liberal, I will defend everyone's civil liberty, especially everyone's right to religious freedom.

[Az]

5. Please don't give up

I understand frustration. I experience it as well. But your cause is just and good. Let me give you this advice. Most of the people that actually converse with you will never get it. But that is not the entirety of your audience.

People who have strongly developed opinions tend to be more vocal about them. They also tend to be more inflexible. Thus they will not be swayed.

But in a forum such as this one your audience is not just those that respond to you. There are countless people reading what you write here. The less vocal readers will take what you have to say to heart and use it to temper their thoughts on the matter. And since they are not as fixed in their notions you may make a real difference.

If your cause is to improve the situation then do not give up. You are reaching people. If your intention is to boost your ego by swaying those you argue with see the difference then give up now. Those you find yourself arguing with are usually the ones least able to change their minds.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. not on an ego trip

as that is not the way to find Peace.

I hadn't thought about the fact that others might read and not post. I've been particularly discouraged when I've seen posts about progressives in any faith doing something about the Darkness and have only one or two posts. They sink like a stone. There have been many other articles about Sufism that I haven't posted because, frankly, I figured no one here was really interested.

And how can one tell if the articles are being read if hardly anyone responds?

[Tux]

6. Sufism

Should be held as a great extension of Islam. It was covered at my UU church last Sunday and is very deep, spiritual, and interesting. Next time, if you know it, tell them that stuff of love to others, respect for others, etc. It may make a difference.

[Proud liberal Kat]

7. Don't give up

If you are looking for some support, here is a shoulder, not in your particular journey which I am sure is pretty stark in the Western world at the moment. But know that others who don't necessarily share your beliefs share a small piece of your frustration.

But I wonder are you really giving up on spreading what you see...or are you just frustrated? I hope frustrated and not giving up.

I am a religious (although spiritual I suppose is better definition) liberal without much particular dogma. I get tired all the time, frustrated, want to throw my hands up and want to just stop and be. Which is good at times, but I hope you aren't giving up on the rest of the world/DU community :-)

[BurtWorm]

8. People at DU do that?

Or in the world at large? You ought to be able to speak freely about your faith here at least.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. No, I can't

I wasn't going to post any more about Islam, but I feel your post deserves an answer.

I am talking about some DU posters.

I'm sick and tired of having to defend my faith, to read snide remarks and flames. I came to DU because I thought I'd found a place where people wanted to find out true information (that's why I came), but I've found that there are just too many people here who are only interested in perpetuating their own prejudices. That's why I've decided not to post much any more. It simply isn't worth it. And it saddens me, because if DU won't listen, what hope is there for the rest of the country? Best to keep a low profile and grit one's teeth, hoping against hope that all Muslims don't wind up being persecuted, which I fear is becoming a real possibility here in the US.

[Stunster]

12. Hey, ayeshahaqqiqa

I read a lot about Sufism online last night, and was very interested.

As a Catholic, I'm interested in mystical writings of our Catholic saints. And while I knew that Sufism was into mysticism, I hadn't read anything about it in detail.

One figure I came across last night was Ruzbihan Bagli (sp?), a Persian Sufi master of the 12th century. There is now a book about his apparently astonishing mystical experiences and 'theophanies' which he recorded in a spiritual diary, The Unveiling of Secrets. The book is entitled Ruzbihan Bagli: Mysticism and the Rhetoric of Sainthood in Persian Sufism, by Carl W. Ernst.

I was thinking of buying it, and I was also wondering if there is a full English translation of The Unveiling of Secrets.

Here's the Amazon link for Ernst's book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/070070342X/reviews/026-8379850-0133234

From the Synopsis:
"Ruzbihan Baqli" is a full-length study devoted to the life and mystical experiences of one of the outstanding figures in Persian Sufism. Although Ruzbihan Baqli (d.1209) was long recognized within the Sufi tradition, it is only within the past few decades that his works have been rediscovered and printed. This study introduces and analyzes the most important sources for the life of Ruzbihan, his own visionary diary ("The Unveiling of Secrets") written in Arabic, and two Persian hagiographies written by his great-grandsons a century after his death; and extensive excerpts from these works are presented here in translation. Ruzbihan's diary is filled with visions of astonishing intensity, and it contains remarkable encounters with God, the angels, the prophets and the Sufi saints. This book aims to articulate and describe the structure of mystical experience in Ruzbihan's writings through analysis of his rhetoric of sainthood. Ruzbihan's diary is contrasted with the two biographies devoted to him by his descendants. This study is aimed partially at those who have a special interest in Islamic studies and Sufism, and it should also prove attractive to readers who follow the subjects of mystical literature and sainthood.

Have you read this work, and if so, would you recommend it?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. I haven't read it

He's a new saint for me. I've read a lot of Idres Shah, Reshad Feild, the Helveti-Jerrahi shaykhs, and Haz. Inayat Khan, Ibn Arabi.

I know that Sufi saints and Catholic saints were pretty neat people. St. Francis of Assissi supposedly hung out with Sufis, according to our tradition. I've been on many Sufi retreats that have been housed in Catholic retreat centers, and have found the folks there very welcoming.

[Stunster]

14. Thanks, I just bought it

You can read the customer reviews here.

[Stunster]

15. Correction!

Oops, I gave a link to the wrong book:

The right one is http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/070070342X/qid=1109984156/sr=1-13/ref=sr_1_13/002-7707477-5756020?v=glance&s=books">this one.

[Marine_Father]

17. You dont have to defend your beliefs.

There will always be those that will call you a fool for believeing in a god..Ignore them!!!!

[DemBones DemBones]

20. True enough, and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Thtwudbeme]

22. "Close your ears and your mind!" Boy, that's GREAT advice!

I believe deeply in God--and am willing to put myself through a hell of 8 years of school again to test that faith.

You don't even want your faith tested on a public internet board.

Great, just bloody great.

Don't raise the level of intellectual conversation by any means! You might learn something, God forbid, and the church won't have as much power over you.

I wish there were a sheep icon, I could use one right now.

Stephanie

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[toddaa]

16. NO NO NO NO

Please keep posting. Please keep Sufism at the forefront of your posts. Please don't let Sufi teachings die on DU. That's what the fundies of all stripes want. Until the non-Muslim world realizes that Sufism is the best hope for freeing the Middle East from tyranny and oppression, you have to keep teaching us. I am firmly convinced, based on scouring the links you have posted here, that a Sufi led intellectual revolution can happen in Islam, restoring its past glory to its proper place in the world's great philosophical traditions.

Without Islam, there would have been no Renaissance. You are doing a noble thing.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. I know how you feel. I'm tired of having to defend my Catholic faith,

or allow it to be attacked mercilessly by some DUers. Liberals shouldn't be attacking other liberals.

Personally, I like to learn about other beliefs; earlier tonight I read some very interesting posts about a mandala built of sand by Tibetan nuns in Boston (think it was Boston.) I also enjoy sharing with others what I like about Catholicism, though I don't want to share with those who aren't interested.

I wish that those who have no interest in religion would just leave the topic alone. I have no interest in sports and so I just leave it alone. I don't go into sports forums and criticize people for being sports fans or criticize the sports themselves.

Athleticism pervades our society but as long as I'm not forced to go to sporting events, I can tune it out. Being an athlete is more valued than being an intellectual or an artist, which is unfair, but life's not noted for being fair. I don't feel any need to start a campaign complaining about how corrupt and hypocritical many athletes are. If people want to spend their time and money watching sports, that's their choice. I just want to make my own choices without having my choice to believe and live as a Catholic challenged all the time.

[Thtwudbeme]

21. Problem is, Dembones, is that you do NOT defend it.

All you do is repeat the church doctrines.

There are three or four Catholics on this board that have repeatedly been asked to explain why they hold their position on the doctrines, even in the face of the harm they cause--usually the answer is something snippy to the tune of "none of your business."

Believe me, I was, and am, ready and willing to have this conversation with you on this board.

Saying "that's just the way we are, and you have to accept that.." does not cut it when one is discussing what boils down to a philisophical way of life--you have to be willing to discuss the "whys" not just the "whats" if you want to play this game.

Stephanie

[kwassa]

23. No, the problem is that it is not defended to your satisfaction

and Dembones has no obligation to do that.

[Thtwudbeme]

24. Wrong

Dembones obligates herself when she makes the claim of defending her "position."

Constantly repeating the doctrines is not defending them...anybody with a computer that knows how to spell can google "Catholic Doctrines" and find that.

Stephanie