I'm sorry.

[varkam]

I joined Democratic Underground slightly more than one year ago. One of the first places that I gravitated towards was the Religion/Theology forum because it was a pretty big interest of mine and I wanted to debate theology. A year later, among the things that I have learned, is that we disagree. We disagree on the big things, like whether or not there is a God. We disagree on the small things, too, like (mis)translations of the Bible. Sometimes I think we disagree with what the other fellow says simply because the other fellow says it. I know I have.

I've always tried to be respectful, however. Even when arguing very controversial points that some regarded as inflammatory, I've tried to be careful not to resort to ad hominem attacks, sarcasm, or general snark. It's been my contention that, while being argumentative, angry, sarcastic, and vitriolic can be tempting, they are seldom truly enjoyable and never productive. Many of the very best debates I've been a part of here are ones in which I know I came away feeling more enlightened, and I had a feeling the other fellow did as well.

I have not been doing that lately. I've been all the things that I wanted to avoid and, in doing so, I'm pretty sure I ended up on a couple ignore lists. That's the last thing that I wanted to have happen, but it's the first reasonable response to how I've been acting. I've failed miserably at keeping my focus on the issues and the issues alone and instead have focused primarily on whomever was advancing the issues. I'm sure I've offended and upset people (you know who you are), and for that, I am very sorry.

I've never found I could have a productive conversation with someone that I've just called irrational. I've never found that I could learn something from someone whose personal beliefs I have desecrated. I've never found that I could find a friendly word in one whom I have berated. I certainly haven't found any of those things these past several days.

So, again, I am sorry. I offer my apologies to any and all whom I have offended and, in addition, to this place. R/T and DU in general have been a sort of safe haven for me, a place where I could come and talk with friends even though we might disagree on certain issues. I never wanted it to become, for me, a place where I toiled and where I fought.

Thank you for reading.

[Erika]

1. So your point is?

I must have missed it.

[lligrd]

3. What Don't You Get?

He is obviously apologizing for unintentionally offending some by speaking his what he thinks.

[varkam]

4. Point being

that I have been behaving poorly these past several days, believe I have offended several people, and wish to make a public apology.

[lligrd]

2. I Look At DU As A Place Where Those Of Us Who Agree On Many

things are free to disagree on other things. I think for the most part it is done pretty tastefully but it does get a bit heated on occasion. Still, it is a respite for me.

[varkam]

5. I think so too.

But I know that I, for one, can work to turn down the heat a bit on occasion. It's my contention that nothing productive happens when tempers flare.

[lligrd]

6. Not So Sure About That

I always think speaking the truth is for the best. And sometimes it takes a bit of heat to get a important point across. Rhetoric on the other hand is often heated and abused. Another thing to keep in mind is how easy it is to take someone's abbreviated text message out of context (the reason emoticons have become so integral to supplementing the written word these days).

[varkam]

9. And again, I'm in agreement.

It's all in the delivery. Sometimes I've found it very temping to deliver the truth in a manner less than respectful. I never have pulled any punches, and I never will - but it's all about how you say something that can make all the difference. At least that's how I see it.

[lligrd]

11. Exactly, And When Someone Gets It Wrong Or We Deliver It

wrong the solution is to let it go or apologize. Either solution is appropriate since we are often not sure which was the case. I bet we most of us here have been there.

[varkam]

12. And I've been delivering it wrong for the past little while

And I figured this would be most appropriate. :)

[lligrd]

14. If You Insist

but I rather doubt it. Still, I hope those offended, see your message and using the Golden Rule as their guide, forgive and forget.

[catnhatnh]

7. I'm sure I have offended others...

though in different forums...certain basics like golden rule stuff can be easily expressed in pop stuff, like "All I Needed to Know I Learned in Kindergarten"...which I have sometimes ought to have reread before I posted...more complex behaviors are particular to adults...my past Catholic upbringing allows me to whisper to the cosmos "Bless me Father,for I have snarked (or ad hominemed or sarcasted) and wish for cosmic absolution...yet little can prepare you for when you over a period of time, well, just let your behavior suck.You have done this or at least believe that true....go ye and sin no more, stop being a schmuck, don't do that no more....you see an error and you regret it-Te Absolvo...No God asks more.

[TheBaldyMan]

8. HERETIC! you must fall into lockstep with DU groupthink immediately

;)

[lligrd]

13. LOL - DU Groupthink

Now if someone could just agree on what that is and give us the rules. :rofl:

[TheBaldyMan]

15. rule one:Thou shalt have no other pet but a kitty cat.

[lligrd]

16. Quite Sure My Cat Placed That Rule Just To

annoy my dogs, fish and horse. "Animal Farm" had nothing over this household. Or Government, it seems.

[eridani]

17. Rule two

You must post pictures of said kittycat in the Lounge every Friday without fail!

[TheBaldyMan]

18. rule three: you must comment how cute the cat is in said pic thread

especially his 'widdle paws'

[Counciltucky]

10. You're a big person for posting that.

I'd like to think that I'd do the same thing, but I doubt I would, so you're a better person than I am for that.

I have no basis of judgment as to what you said -- I've never gone on the religion/theology board -- but one could easily imagine how arguments could get heated.

Hopefully the right people read your apology. Kudos to you.

[jakem]

19. Lets just argue about your post until it gets ugly...

There is often a tendency of harsh quipping in here that unfortunately the format of internet discussion tends to foster.

I got into a heated debate over bacon with a vegan on another topic forum!

Absurd!



Anyway you arent the only one...

[rug]

20. Ego te absolvo in nomine eladis, earlgis et skinneris.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. apology accepted n/t

[Goblinmonger]

22. People wiser than I

often call R/T "The Arena." It is tough in here. A lot of us like it that way. I think it is a lot like GD but people are even smarter and better at logic and argument. I don't want this to become an echo chamber nor do I want it to be a place where nobody is questioned or pushed. There are groups for that. People might be surprised, but the Atheist/Agnostic group is pretty damned friendly and funny. I'm sure the specific theist groups are like that, too.

I, and many others, come here to mix it up. That's not going to change. I think you have added greatly to the discussion here and I have enjoyed reading your comments. As for me, I say keep it up.

[varkam]

23. That's one of the reasons I like R/T.

Because there is so much disagreement. I guess I just feel remiss at my recent inability to disagree with holding others in disdain.

[Evoman]

24. Actually, I kind of find this apology funny...let me explain.

I pretty much think I'm way worse than you are. In many ways, including the past couple of days, I find you are one of the nicest, politest, and most reasonable person on here (on both sides). Quite honestly, I can't imagine you having any disdain or anger that would be unjustified....I think that you've been feeling provoked, and thats maybe why you are "lashing out" (and really, your lashing out is equivalent to my "nice" comments lol). I'm sorry that you feel disdain, however, because despite my being a bit of an asshole, I never feel disdain for anybody here. I have had people ignore me and hate me, and I have never reciprocated that hatred.

Now, I don't feel bad for my opinions and behaviour...usually. When I feel I've said something unfair, I cop to it pretty much right away..and I have apologized many times, on the forum and in PM. However, what people don't seem to understand (maybe legitametly, and maybe because of their thin skin) is that none of my arguments are personal. Never. Ever. UNLESS (and this is big) I've been personally insulted (for example, one person told me I was a liar and that I was a shitty scientists).

I really don't think you need to apologize. I bet you nobody here has even noticed any difference in you...in fact, you kind of remind me of my christian aunt who never swears, but apologizes profusely when she says things like "shoot" or "darn".

On edit: In real life, despite my words here, nobody really ever gets me mad or frustrates me. The only exception is Zeb...he exasperates me like nobodies business. I bet you he would be happy to learn that though, lol. But I can't even say I dislike Zeb...I really don't.

[varkam]

25. My disdain is why I felt the need to apologize.

I don't like feeling like that, and I don't like treating people like that either. I need to grow up a little bit so I don't get so hot under the collar.

Thanks, though :D

[Zebedeo]

27. "the only exception is Zeb"

That gave me a chuckle, I must admit. Sorry to have "exasperated" you. I like your plays. One-sided and ridiculous strawmen as they are, they are still funny. :)

[Evoman]

29. "One-sided and ridiculous strawmen as they are"

Yeah, basically lol.

:toast:

[Meshuga]

26. You are a good guy

Varkam, I've been really busy lately so I missed your posts that got you in trouble enough to get you in a couple of people's ignore list but you are one of the most respectful, politest, and articulate posters in the R/T forum. That's why I'm surprised. Perhaps these people are new to this forum and don't know where you are coming from but it is surprising. Without the evidence I will assume you are being a good guy again and taking the heat for something you didn't do.

[greyl]

28. I missed what you feel the need to apologize for, but you've reminded me of this Sagan piece.

Wonder and Skepticism
by Carl Sagan
from Skeptical Enquirer
Volume 19, Issue 1, January-February 1995
©1994 Carl Sagan

<snip
...Raymond Moody, who is an M.D., I think, an author who writes innumerable books on life after death, actually quoted me in the first chapter of his latest book, saying that I heard my parents calling me Carl, and so, look, even he believes in life after death. This badly misses my point. If this is one of the arguments from chapter I of the latest book of a principal exponent of life after death, I suspect that despite our most fervent wishes, the case is weak.

But still, suppose I wasn't steeped in the virtues of scientific skepticism and felt as I do about my parents, and along comes someone who says, "I can put you in touch with them." Suppose he's clever, and found out something about my parents in the past, and is good at faking voices, and so on -- a darkened room and incense and all of that. I could see being swept away emotionally.

Would you think less of me if I fell for it? Imagine I was never educated about skepticism, had no idea that it's a virtue, but instead believed that it was grumpy and negative and rejecting of everything that's humane. Couldn't you understand my openness to being conned by a medium or a channeler?

The chief deficiency I see in the skeptical movement is its polarization: Us vs. Them -- the sense that we have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you're sensible, you'll listen to us; and if not, to hell with you. This is nonconstructive. It does not get our message across. It condemns us to permanent minority status. Whereas, an approach that from the beginning acknowledges the human roots of pseudoscience and superstition, that recognizes that the society has arranged things so that skepticism is not well taught, might be much more widely accepted.*

* If skeptical habits of thought are widely distributed and prized, then who is the skepticism going to be mainly applied to? To those in power. Those in power, therefore, do not have a vested interest in everybody being able to ask searching questions.

If we understand this, then of course we have compassion for the abductees and those who come upon crop circles and believe they're supernatural, or at least of extraterrestrial manufacture. This is key to making science and the scientific method more attractive, especially to the young, because it's a battle for the future.

Continued

[Dorian Gray]

30. Varkam

You are only human. I've also made a similar pact with myself, and I've found myself slipping into snarkage at times. But, this post is one made by a class act. Though we may argue in the future, I truly appreciate the sentiments extended in this post, and I agree. I will also try to follow the path that you are following and when entering into debate, do so with kindness, no matter how spirited it gets. If I fail, then I'm sorry! (We're bound to fail at times because, let's face it, we're human beings and people can annoy the hell out of us!)

Good luck! :)