Is anyone else here interested in discussing the void?

[redqueen]

This includes all forms of the void... buddhist, nihilist, scientific, etc., however I'm personally most interested in the personal.

I started thinking about this not too terribly long ago when considering addiction (not only physical but mental as well... obsession too, really), and how those who are more firmly controlled by these things seem to be attempting to fill some void within themselves. It occurred to me that the emptiness that most (all?) of us feel from time to time is meant to propel us in some direction or another... but that some who either can't or won't pursue such things resort to other means of dealing with that urge. That led me to consider that such a void that might exist inside us was possibly not meant to be 'filled' but only to serve as an impetus, which we could use however we like, with positive or negative results, depending on our choices.




Ok, I'm ready for a good mocking... and I apologize for my fondness for ellipses and commas - I know that can be annoying.

[cyborg_jim]

1. It is a mechanism for propelling indeed

Although there is no objective meaning to it beyond 'punishment' for not being in a situation that is 'good'. It is your basic negative feedback loop.

[redqueen]

3. You refer to the personal, then...

Do you find it interesting that some of the feedback which would (should?) seem to objectively be characterized as 'negative' is sometimes perceived as 'positive' by the individual involved in the loop? In this I refer to those who are caught up in the cycle of severely self-destructive addictions - alcohol, gambling, drugs, whatever...

I do. I suppose it's only delusion, but still... I find it interesting. And now I'm thinking about Angelina's tattoo.

[cyborg_jim]

6. You've got to see it from the correct perspective

The overall effect on an individual may be negative but addiction is a positive feedback loop. It is an example of where the mechanisms we have to get us to seek out and continue doing 'good' things end up being detrimental. It is only the context in which one finds the negative/positive feedback mechanism being used that makes it negative/positive. And it is interesting that there seems to be a normal distribution of people as far as susceptibility to addictive behaviours goes.

[redqueen]

11. How do you mean... 'normal distribution'?

Does this include all levels of addiction? Some don't seem to have any at all; some can manage theirs quite easily; some less so, but without disastrous effects on their lives; and some of course self-destruct completely.

[cyborg_jim]

26. Think n shaped.

You're on the right track. The normal distribution is basically a statistical function - in laymans terms it says that stuff at the extreme ends of the curve are less likely than the stuff in the middle. So the most extreme examples you outlined are the least occurent.

[redqueen]

28. Ah yes...

Thank you.

[closeupready]

2. But don't we need to discuss the ether first?

I'm game, whichever you say. (that was my 1000th post, for the record, and I also wanted to note that DU's software LIES - though nobody dies in this case :D - because I have only 1000 posts, NOT 1000+. :mad: :D )

[redqueen]

4. Do we?

Why would that be? Please explain... I'm interested to know.

[closeupready]

10. Because the ether leads to the void. And then to the vacuum.

And nothing exists in a vacuum. Ergo, there you go.

(Not serious - just being silly. :D :hi: )

[redqueen]

13. hehehe

I was not aware of the heirarchy of nothingness before. :D

[poverlay]

35. Now I thought the void was actually filled with ether. If you're coming from the other

direction does the void come first? Or is the void a spot with no ether?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

5. This explains the void best to me:

I have climbed the highest mountain
I have run through the fields
Only to be with you
Only to be with you

I have run
I have crawled
I have scaled these city walls
These city walls
Only to be with you

But I still haven't found what I'm looking for


I have kissed honey lips
Felt the healing in her fingertips
It burned like fire
This burning desire

I have spoke with the tongue of angels
I have held the hand of a devil
It was warm in the night
I was cold as a stone

But I still haven't found what I'm looking for

I believe in the kingdom come
Then all the colors will bleed into one
Bleed into one
Well yes I'm still running

You broke the bonds and you
Loosed the chains
Carried the cross
Of my shame

You know I believe it

But I still haven't found what I'm looking for.

[redqueen]

14. Hah!

That does present a nice picture of it, doesn't it?

I never noticed that before, and I've heard the song a brazilian times... thank you!

[poverlay]

33. You just made my wife and I spit out half-chewed m&ms. Thanks ... really. nt

[patrice]

39. Hare Krsna! Hare Rama! Grannie!

:toast:

[Cerridwen]

7. Hi, redqueen.

Have you ever read Circle of Stones; Woman's Journey to Herself by Judith Duerk?

In it, she explores the possibility that depression; a type of personal void; is our Self's* way of getting our attention that something is wrong in our life's path; that we've strayed from our path or that we've forgotten our True Self. And if that's true, what happens when, instead of recognizing it as a warning, we attempt to hide it, ignore it or in some way, move past it without checking to 'get' the message. Or, as you said, if we try to 'fill it' without truly understanding what 'it' is. I found it a very interesting idea.

*Self/Soul/Higher Self/God,dess voice

[redqueen]

15. I have not...

but that's exactly what I'm on about... that it's there for a reason.

[Cerridwen]

18. Exactly. It is there for a reason and the reason may have more

to with a warning to be true to your Self than life lessons in pulling one up by one's bootstraps; as I've so often read.

As you can see, I lean toward the idea that it's a reminder to stop and investigate our life rather than continuing willy-nilly on our unconscious way.

[JuniperLea]

8. I'm reading a book entitled, "The Botany of Desire"

After having just finished re-reading a book on Zen meditation that was written by a Jesuit priest.

Might there be a link between desire and the sense some people have that they are powerless to achieve their desires? So, the drugs, booze, sex, and any other obsessions are a replacement for the true desire. The Buddhist way would be to keep yourself free of desire in the first place, that true peace comes with total absence of desire.

Am I hitting anywhere near what you were thinking about?

[redqueen]

17. Well it's such a prevalent concept...

the void, I mean... but in the Buddhist sense, yes... all those activities are attempts to react to that pull or push from that void, and all are equally fruitless methods of dealing with it.

In the Buddhist sense of it, the only thing to do is accept that it is there, and understand that it is also form (form is emptiness, emptiness is form - the heart mantra).

But I must admit I find that particular interpretation to be less than satisfactory. I suppose I'm still too attached to the material world :)... I would rather see the void as a means to propel us to improve ourselves and the world around us. My personal take on it of course... there are so many philosophies of it... I find it truly fascinating.

[JuniperLea]

37. I find it less than satisfactory as well

Yet I'm feeling compelled to use some of the meditations; perhaps it fills some void for me.

I do think you have a good point in this. I think that so much of what is wrong with this world is caused by individual attempts to fill the void. The need seems so urgent at times and we really don't have a built in, automatic sense of what we need to do or accomplish to make the empty go away.

A dear old friend of mine, a gay metaphysical minister, once told me that God created so many different religions and philosophies because he had created so many different kinds of people. And we are all here trying to learn to live and let live. I've been using that "live and let live" bit a lot lately. Seems to me it is a cornerstone of liberal thought, yet you can see as an example here on DU that there is some other part of humanity that insists on being right and we are not happy unless people are living the way we would dictate.

I think its important to discuss these abstract ideas. Thanks for starting this thread.

[Az]

9. When we are born we have no control or knowledge

As we begin to learn we extend our control and knowledge. At first we must learn the extent of what control we have. We learn that our limbs are within our control but that table over there is beyond our control. This is knowledge. But just because we have learned that we do not have direct control of things beyond ourselves (and that is actually limited as well) does not mean the drive to learn to control is not there.

It is this combined desire of knowledge and control that creates this seeming void in many. It is the impetus behind belief in gods and conspiracies. If we are not in control then perhaps there is someone or something that is in control. Learning more about them would lend us some increased amount of control or understanding. Or so it is hoped.

[redqueen]

19. Interesting...

I have to say though, that my interpretation of the personal or internal void is not the same as yours... it cannot be a desire of anything, because it seems to manifest as a feeling of pure emptiness, of hollowness, something 'missing' inside oneself. Or are you saying that that sense is actually more powerlessness than emptiness? Hmmm...

[Az]

31. It is desire

Desire can become emptiness if left unfullfilled. A hunger for knowledge and control can consume one from within. If a method for pursuing and a reasonable expecation are not achieved then it can become a destructive force within one's life.

This is why many religions survive. For some people the desire for knowledge and control is satisfied by the explanations offered by various doctrines. Some even lose themself within the comfort of believing that there is something out there protecting them with absolute knowledge and control.

But for many that is not enough. Some reject doctrinal explanations and realize that the road to knowledge and control is a lengthy one without short cuts. Others become driven to find short cuts.

[redqueen]

32. Aha

I see... thanks.

And now I have "Is This Desire?" in my head, so double thanks!

[patrice]

12. ". . . Be and yet know the great void where all things begin . . ."

Be ahead of all parting, as though it already were
behind you, like the winter that has just gone by.
For amongst these winters is one so endlessly winter
that only by wintering through it will your heart survive.

Be forever dead in Eurydice-more gladly to rise
in the seamless life proclaimed in your song.
Here, in the realm of decline, amongst the momentary days,
be the crystal cup that shattered even as it rang.

Be - and yet know the great void where all things begin,
the infinite source of your own most intense vibration,
so that, just this once, you may give it your perfect assent.

To all that is used-up, to all the muffled and dumb
creatures of the world's full reserve, the unsayable sums,
joyfully add yourself, and cancel the count.

R.M. Rilke

P.S. This poem is engraved on Rilke's tomb (in Prague I think).

[redqueen]

20. Oh my...

Oh my oh my...

I have never read that... and I am not exaggerating when I say that poem captures my personal philosophy to a t.

Wow.

Thank you so much for sharing that!

[patrice]

38. You are Welcome! I'm always happy to share Rilke with someone

who gets it.

I memorized this one and others, because it encourages me when I feel "the under-tow", to know that the void - and my reaction to it (reaction = am I crystal cup? or a pottery cup? - not that one is worse than the other, but that there is a difference in the ringing and that difference is important to what is evoked by one's being) - the void and my reaction to it is what I am.

I know that might seem dangerously close to "manic depression" in some people's books, but what I'm really thinking is more like finding your personal balance point between both polls ( 0 and not-0, nothing and something, _______ and _______ ) finding your balance point by recognizing both and having enough strength to "tread water" there, while you deal with what/who-ever else comes your way.

I think one of the things Rilke says is that in so doing "Be(ing) and yet know(ing) the Void that is the source of all things" we evoke the physical world. The World is a product of how we are what we are. I may have said elsewhere that I'm not so sure about things people call "God", "heaven" (something?), or "hell" (nothing?) etc. etc. etc. To me, this evocation of the physical world, from micro to macro levels, is enough.

I've been a "fallen" Catholic for a long time. Lately I've been reading the Bhagavad Gita and do not find it anti-thetical to this physically grounded way of thinking, hence I've been celebrating this Evocation in the Hare Krsna chant.

[closeupready]

16. On a more serious note, though,

if you are interested in reading about such matters, Bertrand Russell wrote a good book on a similar matter, "The Conquest of Happiness". Worth checking out from the library, too.

I don't have time to feel empty - I've got too much to do just to survive.

[redqueen]

21. Thank you...

I'll put it on my list!

[closeupready]

24. And also his "Why I Am Not a Christian".

:hi:

[redqueen]

25. I could write that one myself!

:rofl:

[toddaa]

22. The Taoist void

The Tao is best understood as the empty space in a vessel or the hole in the middle of the wheel where the axle goes. But unlike normal empty space, it can never be filled. Once a vessel is filled, its limitless potential disappears. The Tao, on the other hand, can never filled. It is always empty. The void is limitless potential.

[redqueen]

23. Yes, it is 'married' to form.

It is interesting to me how Buddhist concepts seem to often relate to scientific ones.

In this case, it could relate to the balance between matter and dark matter, for example.

[librechik]

27. Tristero at Hullaballo coincidentally is thinking along those lines...

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2007_02_01_archive.html#5601976531652549762#5601976531652549762

interesting essay

[redqueen]

29. Um...

I don't see which one it is you're referring to...

The woo woo hoo hah one? :shrug:

[librechik]

30. yeah, the woo woo one

"...And then Chopra falls into one the hoariest errors in dualism. If the brain does not cause mind, then what does? And if that "what" is some non-material cause, say God, how does the non-material interact/interface with the material?

Now, whether or not we assume that Chopra is invoking something like God here - for example, he might be saying that what "causes" mind is the individual embedded in a culture - we are left, to Chopra's misfortune, with the inescapable fact that there is no reliable evidence that an individual mind persists after the destruction/death of the brain, which really puts kind of a dent in his notion that the brain doesn't cause mind.

Now if Chopra argued that mind cannot exist either without both brain and human society, he would be saying something I could agree to, but also something trivial. No one disagrees. But he seems to be asserting some kind of notion of mind that exists over and beyond physically-instantiated causes. And that is absurd. All he ends up doing is illustrate the pointlessness of attempting to argue by logic for the existence of the supernatural.

Likewise, another of Chopra's point - the assertion that the wrong level of analysis often is brought to bear on the issue of depression - is very well-known. Again, speaking in generalizations, it is naive to talk about the "cause" of something like depression. It has many causes (including possible genetic ones), as do many other diseases for which Chopra doesn't and wouldn't claim supernatural cause - eg, diabetes. I would immediately agree that any psychiatrist who treated merely the neurotransmitter imbalances of depression without asking about life situations is doing his/her patient a grave disservice. But an efficacious treatment for depression does not, in any way require some kind of vague invoking of a supernatural, extra-material cause. In fact a resort to supernatural explanations would be worthless, if not counterproductive..."

Although I'm a believer in the supernatural, I also believe in trying for a scietific explanation for the voidoid first. In fact, what with "dark matter" choking up all the emptiness in the universe, I almost think the void may not exist as such, but is more a metaphor for the emptiness of human loss and depression. Where's an astral body to go nowadays, without getting all soiled and dusty?

[redqueen]

34. I'm the same way...

perhaps dark matter is the void?

Have you heard of zero ontology?

[librechik]

36. do go on--sounds like something I fell into one night

not sure I ever got out

[redqueen]

40. It's this theory that all the stuff in the universe (or world, or whatever)

cancels itself out somehow. It's interesting, but too far over my head for me to really grasp too well. :P

[librechik]

41. yes, looks interesting--if the sum total of all existence = 0

then the void and existence are equal, i.e. being=nothingness. And rather than rely on mere philosophical reasoning to demonstrate this concept, David Pearce (the inventor of "zero ontology")

http://www.hedweb.com/witherall/zero.htm

buttresses his absurdist philosophy with quantum physics and mathematical proofs.

I love that stuff, all the way back to Teilhard de Chardin, another scientific metaphysician. Thanks for the new name/meme!

[bananas]

43. Tristero's argument completely falls apart

when the high placebo response rate is considered.
Placebo's affect physical illnesses as well as depression.
Clearly a case of mind over matter.

[rug]

42. Much better idea than avoiding the discussion.