So I'm sitting with my just-turned 3 year old grandson

[TallahasseeGrannie]

on my lap and he says to me, "Who were those G's?" (He refers to my husband and me as "The G's") And I asked, "What G's? Me and Gpa?"

He says, "No. Other G's. It was a long time ago and it was very, very far away. I met an old G-pa and and old G-ma and they told me about Mommy and Daddy and you and G-pa."

Where the heck did THAT come from? We have not discussed death or heaven. He has only just this week started nursery school. And yes, my dad and my mother in law were dead at the time of his birth.

Do you think he saw a tv show or fairy tale? Genetic memories? Or .... well, I won't even say it because I will get pummeled. But what is your take on this?

Kids can spook you. At about this age my son came in the living room and said "don't go into the kitchen, it is full of glass!" I got up to look and when I got to the doorway the light fixture on the ceiling came down and shattered everywhere.

Ok, I'm looking for some atheists to ground me here. I've been going around singing the Twilight Zone theme.

[mzteris]

1. i'm right there with you

my kids have done/said similar types of things. Things that they have no way of knowing - yet they do.

Ask for details about the 'old G's' and see if it meshes with what you know. Oh yeah - and write it all down.

I wish I'd written down exactly what they said and when. I remember pretty much - but it would be nice to have something more exact to look back upon. Especially dates, etc.

I taught my daughter she should ALWAYS listen to her 'instincts'. She does seem incredibly 'lucky' sometimes.

Also, I don't think belief in god has anything to do with it. I was a believer, now I'm not (ok so maybe I'm some sort of agnostic now) but - I don't think it affects the issue.

[LynzM]

2. Not sure I can help with the grounding...

In our old house, our (at-the-time) two year old used to look up into empty doorwaves, wave, and say "hi". After that, I don't discount much in terms of what kids can/can't know and experience.

Personally, if your grandson got to talk to your older relatives, I think that's pretty cool. :)

[tanyev]

3. If you really want to explore this topic, try posting it in this forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=245

[greyl]

9. I disagree. This forum should provide a nice cross-section of all points of view. nt

[tanyev]

14. I'm just sayin' if she wants additional input from other perspectives.

No slight intended toward all the fine people in this forum.

[FormerDittoHead]

4. Probably other grandparents of kids in his daycare who know you.

"I remember when your father was YOUR size, but that was a long time ago on the other side of town!"

[TallahasseeGrannie]

5. LOL

you just never know. That is an entirely plausible explanation.

[havocmom]

6. Consider, engineers say the bumble bee CANNOT fly

yet the bee does quite nicely.

Experience and observation has made me question that children's imaginary friends are all imaginary.

Perhaps, like the bee that cannot possibly fly, those yet ignorant of what is 'normal' can do paranormal quite well.

What does it hurt to allow room for the possibility that 'old G-pas and old Gmas' might be watching over and trying to instill some knowledge?

You don't have to believe in god to believe in Einstein. He believed in the conservation of energy, didn't he? Who knows, but the dead, what becomes of their energy ;)

I am agnostic and I believe. Have seen enough that it has nothing to do with faith. For sure, it has nothing to do with god nor with religion.

[cyborg_jim]

10. Not that old canard

No, engineers do not say the bumble bee cannot fly. This particular chestnut comes from the fact that at one point aerodynamics was not sufficiently understood enough so that how the bumble bee could fly was perplexing. Fortunately knowledge moves on and such things give us a fully understanding of the world. Unfortunately those who want to insert magic into the world seem more than happy to base objections on past ignorance rather than current knowledge.

What does it hurt to allow room for the possibility that 'old G-pas and old Gmas' might be watching over and trying to instill some knowledge?

The path to magical thinking leads to all sorts of problems - not least of which the vast armies of people who will take advantage of you for doing so.

You don't have to believe in god to believe in Einstein. He believed in the conservation of energy, didn't he?

I'm fairly certain that Einstein would have accepted the laws of thermodynamics, not that I see the relevance.

Who knows, but the dead, what becomes of their energy ;)

It's still there, it's just not in a form that is any longer part of a life form, much like the energy of the food you consumed a few years ago. What became of that energy? Well it made you move but now it's long since passed into heat.

[havocmom]

11. LOL, so , it IS possible that what we THOUGHT was true might be later proved wrong?

:rofl: thanks for taking the bait and making my arguement for me :hi:

Einstein said something about energy not being destroyed, but changed, no?

[cyborg_jim]

12. Yeah, whatever

I have in no way made your argument. No one has ever thought bumble bees can't fly - that is fucking stupid because it is plainly obvious they do. The point is about the EXPLANATION for HOW they fly was not understood - according to what was known at one point bumble bees should not have been able to fly. Fortunately science takes the sensible option of IMPROVING THE EXPLANATION rather than the attitude of some of the unscientific which would indeed would be to pronounce that bumble bees do not fly. (*cough* IDiots).

Einstein said something about energy not being destroyed, but changed, no?

No - thermodynamics was around before Einstein. His most important contributions were to do with relativity and quantum mechanics.

Look, if you don't understand thermodynamics that's fine but it is NOT alright to take a very precise physical law and to be imprecise with the language in order to massage a conclusion and pretend it is scientific.

Energy is neither created nor destroyed - it transforms. When you die the energy in your body gradually reaches equilibrium with the environment. The 'you' that was there is not preserved, it is lost forever. The atoms in your body are scavenged by bacteria and other organisms and the heat passes into the environment. There is no sense in which thermodynamics is providing a physical justification for an after-life which does not involve your body being recycled.

[havocmom]

44. Re Einstein was NOT about thermodynamics but ENERGY conservation

:eyes: And there was a time when engineers DID insist that the bee couldn't fly - on paper, using what was KNOWN at the time about flight.

Point being: Something is not impossible on the basis of what is known NOW. Knowledge has often changed what is accepted as common knowledge. Just ask Hawking ;)

You call something magical thinking when it is perhaps something we can't YET quantify. I call it a possibly, and figure we will someday have the technology to measure. Not being able to prove something with the tools at hand NOW does not mean it does or doesn't exist.

Not so long ago, scientists insisted germs were imaginary.

[cyborg_jim]

47. Ugh

And there was a time when engineers DID insist that the bee couldn't fly - on paper, using what was KNOWN at the time about flight.

So you are seriously telling me that some engineers came to the conclusions bee can't fly despite that fact only been of any interest precisely because bees can fly? Pull the other one.

Point being: Something is not impossible on the basis of what is known NOW. Knowledge has often changed what is accepted as common knowledge. Just ask Hawking

You really have no idea who the people you are talking about are do you?

You call something magical thinking when it is perhaps something we can't YET quantify. I call it a possibly, and figure we will someday have the technology to measure. Not being able to prove something with the tools at hand NOW does not mean it does or doesn't exist.

Right, and if I believe that reincarnation is impossible because the Q won't allow it does my Star Trek 'possibility' qualify as something we will one day have to tools to measure it - despite the fact it is totally incompatible with what you say we will measure. Tell me, are you closed minded to my possibility?

Not so long ago, scientists insisted germs were imaginary.

So you're saying that men first insisted there were germs - based on nothing by idle speculation - and then one day somebody just happened to develop the technology to confirm that flight of fancy?

[murray hill farm]

7. When my grandson was 3

I was talking to him and told him that his middle name was the same as my fathers name. He said..oh sure, I remember him...I met him before I was born..before I came here to live..I think when kids are that young, they remember such things...and then, as they get older and more into earth life, the memories fade.

[greyl]

8. Dreams seem very real, even to adults. The fact that he was asking you

to explain those Gs to him indicates that he's confused about the memory in his mind, not that he has some mystical knowledge or awareness.



*Glad to see you're doing well! Welcome back. :)

[moggie]

13. Fantasy is very important to kids

I think most kids don't clearly distinguish between fantasy/dreams and reality until around the age of 5. Think of imaginary friends, for example, or seeing monsters.

[ms liberty]

15. I'll say it, TG...

There is evidence of young children spontaneously remembering events from previous lives or from the time between lives. It's usually seen in countries where reincarnation is part of the religious belief system, but it can be found in other countries, such as ours. Dr. Raymond Moody (I think that's the correct name) did quite a bit of research on these kinds of memories by young children.

The reason I believe in reincarnation is because I have always believed in it - from as early as I can remember. I can remember being about 3 and thinking as I was learning to do things like tying my shoes that I had done this before, the last time I was here. I had no idea there was a word for it, or what the word was. Back then, in 1961, 1962 you didn't hear about these subjects, especially in a southern Christian household, and I don't remember talking about it to anyone. But I was also a precocious and serious child, reading and writing by age 3, and I knew my mother and father would not believe me or understand. I didn't speak of it for more than 25 years to anyone at all.

When my mother died in 1993, my niece was 6. In the first year after my mom's death, my niece repeatedly had dreams of my mother (her granny) coming to visit her and bringing relatives to meet her. People like my mother's parents, grandparents, sisters, brothers, and other relatives...people who died, in many cases, long before my sister or I were born. My neice wasn't 'eager' to talk about it, because she was sad about my mom (who collapsed and died in front of me, my niece, and my sister)but she would tell her who she met, what they said, and what they looked like, talked like, wore. Sometimes she would repeat details that she could not have known, but that we knew to be correct.

You'll probably get some very logical, reasonable, science based explanations from other DU'ers, and I might get flamed for flying my freaky faith flag high (LOL) - but this is an accurate and truthful representation of experiences from my life. I could relate some more interesting personal experiences, but they're not directly related to children or your situation.

[moobu2]

20. That’s just your imagination.

It isn’t possible to live different lives at different times. You’re alive now because you have a functioning brain, and when your brain dies, you die…That’s it, lights out forever. You don’t live happily ever after, nor do you get a second chance.

Children cant see invisible things that you aren’t privy to either. Some children have very active imaginations, and cant yet determine what’s real or just a figment of that imagination. They usually grow out of it around 4 to 6 as their brain develops and their mind matures and they develop socially etc...If you have a healthy mature nervous system, and a healthy optic system etc…it just isn’t possible for anyone to see anything that you cant see yourself.

[ms liberty]

27. Oh, okay....thank you so much...

Just how did I get thru life until now without you to explain everything I've seen, done and experienced? And please, tell me - how exactly do you know indisputably that it is not possible to have more than one life? I'd really like to know. Do you have some information that only you are privy to? If so, perhaps you should be publishing this information, or going on the talk show circuit.

You do realize how patronizing and condescending your comments were, don't you? So unless you can offer iron-clad scientific proof for those comments, I'll take them in the spirit in which they were intended, and relegate them to the trash bin.

[cyborg_jim]

29. Science is not on your side

So unless you can offer iron-clad scientific proof for those comments, I'll take them in the spirit in which they were intended, and relegate them to the trash bin.

That is impossible until you are willing to let go the importance you hold to the conclusions you have drawn for your experiences.

You wish to hide your beliefs in ignorance - you are not really interested in what science has to say. Clearly you can recognise its descriptive power but you also want to set that aside when it is inconvenient.

[ms liberty]

33. I'm guessing you didn't realize I was speaking rhetorically - and with sarcasm?

Science can't prove there is or is not 'God'. Nor can science prove there is or is not 'heaven', or other spiritual beliefs. I don't expect to prove or disprove my beliefs thru science, nor am I interested in trying. My beliefs in this area are SPIRITUAL, not scientific. I'm not an atheist (been there), or an agnostic (been there, too), nor am I a traditional christian or member of any organized religion. I've not pretended to be any of those, or anything else. I simply posted a couple of my personal experiences which seemed somewhat relevant to the situation in the OP, and a short paragraph about related studies that I read about some time ago.
I'm not the first person to believe in reincarnation, you know, and I'm sure I won't be the last. And if I'm wrong? Well, if life ends at death, then I'll die and it's over. If there's some bearded guy named "God" and a place called "Heaven" and everything's like the RW fundies say, then I probably won't get in. And if I'm right? Then I'll have other things to do than gloat.

[cyborg_jim]

36. I guess not

It's strange that it would continue to amaze me the lack of respect people can have for science whilst benefiting so profusely from its application.

Science can't prove there is or is not 'God'. Nor can science prove there is or is not 'heaven', or other spiritual beliefs.

Indeed. So it's all about saying, "well I really want to have this belief whatever, you know," in the end. But if you're going to pretend otherwise and that it's an explanation for anything then you're going to have your ass jumped on by people who aren't going to accept that. You don't get a free pass in this forum - it's not a group forum, it's a debate forum.

The position of, "you can't disprove it!" really is the weakest one to have.

I'm not the first person to believe in reincarnation, you know, and I'm sure I won't be the last.

Probably not, but that's irrelevant to whether or not reincarnation is something that actually occurs.

[ms liberty]

43. Right...

Did I claim my post contained The Answer TG was looking for in her OP? No. I offered my viewpoint, thru a couple of very general descriptions of personal experiences. I could have gotten much more specific, but I didn't; I left it general because my spiritual beliefs and experiences are my own, and are personal. I don't need to justify them to anyone, I don't need to proselytize or convert anyone.
I added my own comment to a thread; it was not a doctoral thesis or a professional presentation...and for it, I've been told that my experiences were all in my imagination, and that I'm ignorant. By people who don't know me, don't know the full extent of my experiences, and who expect me to defend my beliefs to their satisfaction in a field that does not recognize and cannot measure my experiences and beliefs.
I was raised in a time when it was no one's business what your religious beliefs were, and it was rude to ask. There were strict rules of courtesy and good manners, and despite the world's increasing lack of the same I still try to maintain those rules. I believe manners are the grease that keeps the wheels of civilization turning. It would be horrifyingly ill-mannered and rude to ridicule, dismiss or demean someone because of their religious or spiritual beliefs - no matter how silly, stupid, or wrong I felt those beliefs to be...and I expect the same in courtesy and manners from others. It does not happen here in relation to some subjects; that is why I do not often post comments to certain subjects, and why I do not go beyond the general when discussing those certain subjects.

I am now wishing I had bypassed TG's post altogether...

[cyborg_jim]

48. So... you got nothing then?

Thanks for playing. Come again. Remember to never discuss your beliefs if you're not willing to have someone question them.

[Dorian Gray]

51. I don't think that anybody was "playing."

Can't people share in good will without being called out on things?

Sometimes this forum can be infuriating.

[ms liberty]

60. This isn't a game, it's a discussion board...and I'm not going anywhere...

I've been coming to this board since 2001. If you (and the other poster) had been civil, friendly, or even just polite in the beginning, I might have been willing to discuss my beliefs with you. I prefer, however, to avoid interacting with those who show themselves to be pompous, boorish asswipes. Goodbye - and have a Great Day!

[cyborg_jim]

61. Please then point out where I was uncivil, unfriendly or unpolite in the beginning

If anything all the hostility is coming my way.

[Dorian Gray]

50. Ms. Liberty....

don't worry about that other people have decided to jump down your throat. I appreciated reading your point of view and your beliefs. I don't believe in reincarnation myself, but your thoughts are no less valid or acceptable to post on here than anyone elses. If people don't understand sharing ideas without the need to jump down your throat, then that is their disability. :) I, for one, appreciate reading everyone's point of view. You made it clear that you aren't trying to prove anything and that you are sharing what you feel/believe. So... good for you! :)

[ms liberty]

59. Thank you DG...

I know a lot of people don't share my beliefs, and that's ok with me...I'm a liberal! To me that means open-mindedness, tolerance, and respect for the beliefs and opinions of others, even when I disagree strongly with them. As Peter Gabriel sang, "All shades of opinion/feed an open mind"

Thanks again - I appreciate your support!

[cyborg_jim]

69. Respect is irrelevant

Liberalism doesn't require respect for the idea, it means you respect the RIGHT for someone to have contrary ideas.

Do I have to respect the ideas of fascists, racists, Republicans? No? Then why do your ideas get de facto respect also?

I have already explained why you are more closed-minded than I. The fact that you are emotionally attached to your ideas means you'll never let go no matter what facts to the contrary there are and all the while you'll scream at people like me that I am not open-minded.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

52. Not everyone chooses to view the world from a purely scientific perspective.

In attempting to quash Miss Liberty's with your viewpoint, you make a case that is about as persuasive as a bible-thumpers'. You'll not likely convince many people to ditch their beliefs.

Beliefs are certainly not science. I don't read anything in Miss Liberty's post that suggests she thinks otherwise. Neither do her responses to your attacks indicate a lack of respect for your lack of beliefs.

Why can't the respect be mutual?

[cyborg_jim]

62. Why must ideas be respected?

If people become so attached to ideas that they cannot stand them being questioned then maybe they should not be so dependent on them.

I find your Bible-thumping analogy inaccurate.

[Tormenta]

68. It's not the questioning itself

It's the choice of words and the vibe that are offensive. If your intention is to try to change someone's mind about their belief, or rescue them from their delusions, your methods are counterproductive. If your intention is to prove yourself superior in some way by using science as a weapon, you have failed.

[cyborg_jim]

70. Please point out the offensive choice of words

Maybe I have been a little firm, but then it is more than a little galling to see continual scientific urban myths be perpetuated by those who can only admit to being ignorant yet are seemingly totally unwilling to rescind these myths anyway. As far as I can see it is those who have been perpetuating these canards that have chosen an offensive 'vibe'.

I cite ms liberty's first response to an alternative assessment of her presented idea.

Who has the offensive vibe I ask?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

71. Who said anything about respecting ideas?

You don't need to adhere to a belief to respect a person who has them. And the fact that you feel disdain for beliefs does not make it necessary to "evangelize", ala bible-thumpers, those followers to your purely scientific point of view.

Science cannot prove beliefs. Such is the nature of faith.

There is, however, one fundamental element of faith that can be scientifically proven: Many people subscribe to various faiths.
It may appear as useless as a tail would be to a human; but there it is. Perhaps one day, people will find that beliefs, like wisdom teeth, are best extracted. Or perhaps not.

My opinion...purely unscientific...is that extracting faith from human nature would be like exterminating weeds from a lawn. The lawn would appear a pristine green carpet of perfection; but I would miss the variations in color and texture. I'd find such a world, utterly devoid of imagination, terribly boring.

[cyborg_jim]

74. I posit I am just as, if not more, imaginative than those of 'faith'

I just don't pretend my daydreams are reality. If anyone lacks imagination in this world it's those who are unable to think beyond what they already 'know' - I am perfectly capable of understanding the ideas people here are positing and I can can come up with ones ten times weirder. The real problem is that these people don't like the fact that I reject their ideas and have done so with good reasons why they are flawed.

And the fact that you feel disdain for beliefs does not make it necessary to "evangelize", ala bible-thumpers, those followers to your purely scientific point of view.

I believe the very premise of this topic was for 'grounding'.

If explaining how things are is evangelizing then so be it.

I sure do wish more people would understand what science is and is not though.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

77. Noone here has suggested that their beliefs are reality...

Why do you continue to presume that they do? I think more people of faith understand what science is than you give credit to; though I'll not deny that there are many who will declare that their beliefs are scientifically valid without bothering to use science to back them up.

As to grounding, I believe the original poster was not Ms Liberty. It would be more apropos to direct grounding comments directly to TallahasseeGrannie, as she was seeking them. Offhand, I'd say that the real problem is not that people don't like the fact that you reject their ideas with reasoning; but that they never asked your opinion or approval in the first place.

It was not my intent to suggest that you lacked creativity. Please forgive my clumsy post if you interpreted it that way.

Peace~

[cyborg_jim]

78. Again, I must point out that if you don't want an opinion questioned don't put it out there!

It's gonna happen. Live with it. Learn. Even if you could persuade me not to then that's hardly gonna stop someone else. If you didn't want to discuss ideas then a discussion board was a bad choice. If Ms Liberty cannot understand this she'll just get more pissed off in the future.

Why do you continue to presume that they do?

Well because of the utter hostility that came out when the belief was questioned. Again I must argue that it is Ms Liberty who has the problem here.

I think more people of faith understand what science is than you give credit to;

Some certainly do but I'm not seeing much evidence of it here.

[Dorian Gray]

83. My opinion is that your opinionated questioning

is arrogant and unwarranted. There, I said it. How can you argue with my opinion of your opinion or another's opinion. Ad infinitum.

[cyborg_jim]

84. Quite easily

Now if you can't stand the debate get out of the kitchen. If you really didn't want to have your two cents you would stop replying. And yet you still haven't learnt.

[Dorian Gray]

86. I haven't "learnt" (sic) much from these back and forth posts.

You aren't attacking my POV, as I haven't written about my POV. But, what I have "learnt" (sic) is that many posters come here for many different reasons. You seem to be a confrontational argumentative poster, and there is nothing wrong with that. (Other than it annoys some people.) But, many others come to share their ideas, beliefs, and lives with one another in an open atmosphere. Some thought your posts were rude, and some, including myself, called you out on that. So, I hope that you have learned from this exercise in futility that not everyone wants to argue or debate all the time. Those who do, I am sure, will engage with you in said debate. I hope you find those posters and enjoy your interaction.

[greyl]

89. "Learnt" is correct. Your "(sic)" is wrong. nt

[cyborg_jim]

131. The irony is not lost on me

Nor is the fact that despite requesting specific examples of the behaviour everyone finds so objectionable they have not been forthcoming.

[ms liberty]

64. Exactly...

You've wrapped up in one sentence what I tried to say in several paragraphs and with less success. Thanks!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

72. My apologies...

I referred to you as Miss Liberty, when your nick is Ms Liberty...
I must have been thinking of the movie. :hi:

[ms liberty]

73. Thanks, but that's OK - I didn't even catch it until you posted! n/t

[okasha]

66. Your faith-based opinion is not "science."

Any "proof" you may have to offer should be valid whether or not a reader has opposing "conclusions drawn for (sic) her own experiences."

Prove away.

[cyborg_jim]

67. Is this directed to me?

Oh I have a faith! Woe betide me!

That always makes the most sense coming from those who seem to think faith means a damn.

It is not a matter of faith that reincarnation is a flight of fancy, it is a matter of observation. That is to say not only has reincarnation never been observationally confirmed it also contradicts what we can already observe about the cycles of life and death.

Yes and it's conclusions drawn for, not from. Those are the conclusions she has drawn for her experiences - one implies a experiential learning the other an explicative system.

As I said, whilst she insists her own subjective interpretations trump everything else there is nothing science or anything else can do to prove anything. Hence she is closed minded, not I.

[moobu2]

38. Perhaps if you could tell me

where exactly this alleged heaven or god is, then maybe I can offer scientific proof that neither does actually exist. Where is the physical location? If there is no physical location, then it doesn’t really exist. It’s imaginary.

[ms liberty]

41. What heaven and what God are you talking about?

The post to which you are responding makes no mention of any heaven or God. Why would I want to discuss 'heaven' (which I don't believe in) or 'God' (which I do believe in) with you anyway? Please reread my post, and turn your sarcasm detector on...you'll discover that your post struck me as rude. Why should I discuss this with you, when you've already made it clear that you believe yourself exempt from the rules of common courtesy and simple respect for another's personal experiences and beliefs?

[Tormenta]

75. Pearls before swine

Ms Liberty, some of us have experiences that others will try to explain away rationally. It really doesn't matter, since nothing they say can change the significance of the experience.

I haven't had very much interest in reincarnation for many years, since it's far more interesting to work on the current life. But by coincidence, I read this comment from a book recommended by a poster in another forum, right before reading your post.

"But this sounds like you're preaching reincarnation," Craig had said... "I just can't believe in that."

Belief is not required: you will reincarnate anyway. A leaf does not have to believe in photosynthesis to turn green.

[ms liberty]

76. Thank You! I needed that reminder...

You echo some of what I have been thinking about today and do believe. I do try in my normal daily life to concentrate upon this lifetime (normally I'm successful!), letting any previous or future lives "fall where they may" as it were. This discussion, and the flaming I caught from my small part in it has kind of stuck with me today, though. I've reminded myself that reincarnation, like karma, happens whether you believe in it or not, but it doesn't have the same power that comes when another person says it...

I'm someone who really 'feels it' when I am pushed to the point of being what I think of as rude or blunt...I get an upset stomach when I have a disagreement with someone! My sense of courtesy and manners is deeply ingrained - when it comes to using your manners, southern mothers are much like the stereotype of the jewish mother who can make her child feel guilty just for being happy! At my age (forty-mumblemumble) I should be over it by now, but I'm not, and I've decided I may live with it my whole life - you should hear my politeness at the drive-thru!

Again, I thank you for a well timed, and much needed reminder...I hope that someday, if necessary, I will be able to return the favor - - - and WELCOME to DU, Tormenta!

[Tormenta]

82. Thank you

I just discovered that this site has an ignore button. Oh happy day!

[cyborg_jim]

79. Pearls before swine indeed

I could say the same damn thing:

Pearls of knowledge you have been given, but you'd rather wallow in ignorance.

If the significance of your life relies on living in a world of magic then your life doesn't have very much significance.

[Tormenta]

80. I think I just heard an oink.

[cyborg_jim]

81. That was your mouth flapping up and down

Do you enjoy this tit for tat shit?

[redqueen]

102. Off topic, but... ms liberty

did you coin the phrase "Weathervane McCain"?

If so... thank you! I'm SO using that! :rofl:

[Fresh_Start]

16. could he be confused because he only sees

one set of grandparents regularly and doesn't realize he has two sets of Gs?

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. That seems the first thing to check

And "a long time ago" can mean almost anything with a 3 year old. 2 months ago is an eighteenth of their life (and significantly more of the time they've been talking and forming a good concept of the world).

[TallahasseeGrannie]

23. Certainly "a long time ago"

can mean the day before yesterday. I just can't figure out who these other G's are. Maybe he saw other G's taking kids to school?

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. You 2 are the only pair of grandparents he's met, then?

He's never seen your son-in-law/daughter-in-law's parents?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

57. He lives with with paternal grandmother

and has met his paternal grandfather. They are much younger than I am, still noto 50. But of course, to him, ancient.

The two G's that were dead would have been Great grandparents. It is also interesting that he was conceived (so my daughter tells me) the night my father died. It had been a very long 11 day vigil, night and day for most of us, where we thought he'd go at any minute. Turns out he was quite strong.

He has many physical and personality characteristics of my dad, which I find comforting. I have never been convinced that reincarnation exists, but I am open to the idea. My priest probably wouldn't much like that, but my mind is my own.

[muriel_volestrangler]

65. Well, his paternal grandmother and grandfather are 'G's to him too

though if he lives with his paternal grandmother, it would seem unlikely he'd refer to her in that way. But then his great-grandparents on that side (if alive, but if his grandparents are under 50, there's a good chance their parents are still alive) could be whom he's referring to. It may depend on what they were talking about, but if he has met them, what they told him about you might just be an attempted explanation of how they were related to him - (eg "this is Daddy's G and GPa - that's like the G's are to you". "Huh?" "Well, TG is Mummy's mummy, which makes her your grandma ..." etc.)

[Arkansas Granny]

17. My kids would sometimes surprise me with things they seemed

to know about family members they had never met. I always attributed it to them remembering a conversation that they had overheard, but you never know for sure. It certainly makes you wonder.

:hi: Good to see you. I haven't seen you around in a while.

[cyborg_jim]

19. What did they actually know?

Think about it - it is far more likely that the child is throwing out stuff that you just happen to associate some significance with - you are the one working hard to find an interpretation for what the child is saying. And of course, who doesn't want to think their child /children in general are special, or in tune with the universe or whatever?

I mean think about what TG has actually said the child said. It's hardly specific information. Lots of children could say exactly the same sort of thing and be just as accurate.

Until the child starts saying something pretty specific the significance here only comes from how you are interpreting the child's words. You must remember that you have a developed and adult conceptualisation of the world that the child does not have - it is only beginning to form it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

18. Angels used to talk to me when I was "fwee". I think kids are

inherently more in tune with nature, the universe, and whatever may be out there.

Later as a kid, I used to have dreams about my mom's parents, who died when she was 12. But since they were in black and white mom and I concluded it was false memories created by looking at old family photo albums.

[SutaUvaca]

22. Try this question with little ones:

"where were you before you were here?" or "What did you do before you were here?"

I forget what book I was reading many years ago, maybe "Soul Search" by David Darling, but this potential of young children to remember their experiences just prior to this life was being addressed. It was suggested to try questions such as this, assuming they could be asked in a natural setting, just part of casual conversation with a child. I tried it twice (not my children) and the responses I got were, roughly "taking a walk through the woods - it was pretty." and "WE used to sing a lot." Emphasis on WE is my own.

I remain skeptical, but pleasantly intrigued.

[Evoman]

24. The kid is three.

To him, probably all old people are "G's". He probably remembers those old people, and can't quite understand who they are. Not only that, but maybe he remembers incorrectly, or maybe he remembers a dream, or maybe he met some old people who knew you. There are so many possible rational explanations, why would you bend over backwards to accept a paranormal one?

Now for a story:

When I was younger, my little cousin (3 years old) came running into the room saying, "the cars crashed, the cars crashed". We were all sitting watching TV and there was a report about a car pileup on the news. There was no way that this kid, who was in another room, could have heard the news. How did he know? Everybody got a pretty spooked look except me (I was always a skeptinazi). I asked her to show me the "cars crashed". We went into the other room, and her older cousins were playing with cars...they would roll the cars at each other and crash them....they were playing a game to see which car would not turn over.

People want to believe that children are special. They want to believe so badly, that they throw out the most rational explanation in favour of paranormal ones. Children are not special...they have underdeveloped brains and they are very seldom capable of deep insight. Don't get me wrong..I like them enough, but they do not have any special links to heaven or nature.

[cosmik debris]

25. Occam's Razor

There are thousands of possible explanations. You seem to be leaning toward one of the least probable. If you rank the likely explanations in order of probability, you will see that the supernatural explanation is way down on the list.

If you must believe one or more explanations, pick the ones that require the fewest logical leaps.

[BurtWorm]

26. You can't think of a single older couple who live somewhere "far away" from his perspective

who might have told him about you all?

Remember that for a three-year-old, far away might mean an hour by car.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

30. Well, let's see

he knows an old man across the street, and he has a set of great grandparents in south FL he hasn't met, but may have seen pictures of?

[BurtWorm]

37. How about friends of yours you might have taken him to visit?

It may even have been a dream he had. I used to confuse a few of my most vivid dreams with reality. Once I dreamt I peeled the skin of my finger off, and it was the texture of a peeled stewed tomato underneath. For years I thought this had actually happened to me--I could even remember the sting as the skin pulled away from the meat underneath--until one day I pondered why, if it really happened, there was no scar on my finger.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

58. There is an older couple that walks their dog and often stops

and chats.

And his mom owns (co-owns with me) a florist shop, so who knows who he might have met in there?

[moggie]

35. An hour?

When I was that age, "far away" could mean three streets over!

[BurtWorm]

39. Long ago could be two mornings ago.

It's nice to think of young children as having special intelligence, and they do. But it's only because it's working so hard to catch this new-formed being up with a world already in progress.

[Az]

28. Starting nursery school suggests a flood of new ideas

He may have been exposed to some idea of people in the distant past (history) and is trying to internalize the information. Not sure how to relate it he may have connected it to you (the reference other G's suggests this). Thus he has associated the memories of history with you and was curious about it and asked you about them.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

31. I am definitely one of the major

figures in his life, having been at his birth and he lived with me for 2.5 of his 3 years. So my husband and I would definitely represent major archetypes, I guess you could say.

[redqueen]

32. Well... if you're looking for atheists to ground you...

then you don't want my input here. :P

[Az]

42. I'll grab her feet and you grab her arms and we pull!

Go!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

55. I guess what I needed to hear was both sides

because, of course, everybody in my family has him right up there next to John Edwards, talking to the dead; which creeps me out.

[cyborg_jim]

63. It should do - because the adults are being screwy!

The child can barely string sentences together, says something that seems barely significant and then people get themselves convinced children can speak to the dead.

Humans. :/

[redqueen]

92. That would certainly creep me out as well.

I know someone who used to see fairies when she was a child. Not imaginary friends... she says they were actual fairies. Who knows, she might have been hallucinating, or have had some chemical imbalance... but... perhaps some rare chemical imbalances allow us to percieve things that others can't?

[cyborg_jim]

132. No

perhaps some rare chemical imbalances allow us to percieve things that others can't?

Either that's light coming into your eyes or it's not. What the mind makes of that information is another thing altogether. But your eyes aren't ever going to see anything else because of what's going on in the brain.

[Meshuga]

40. "Kids can spook you"

No kidding! I was making lunch for my pre-schooler and I left him in his bedroom playing with his action figures. When I was about done I heard him yelling something that sounded like, "REDRUM! REDRUM! REDRUM..." I thought, "Oh crap, my kid is the kid from The Shining! He never saw that movie so what the hell is going on up there?". I go upstairs thinking I was going to see a kid with his head down, eyes pointing up, with his pointing finger going up and down.

But, to my relief, it was only the noise a monster action figure was making while fighting a Bizarro Superman action figure.

As far as your story with your grandson talking to people who already passed away... it is spooky! But I'm sure there is a logical and natural explanation behind it all. :-)

[okasha]

45. Amazing the number of folks on this thread

who discount reincarnation but seem to have absolute confidence in their own telepathic and distance viewing abilities. :eyes:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

53. We're arrogant beasties, aren't we?

:evilgrin:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

56. Do you believe in

reincarnation? And if so, would pre-life be kind of a holding area, in your mind?

[silverweb]

46. I believe in possibilities.

:)

[Erika]

49. There can be a universal connection not driven by religion

Many animals can sense a hurricane or earthquake.

[Evoman]

91. Thats because they have superior NORMAL senses, not because they have a "universal connection".

[redqueen]

93. Perhaps we just don't understand the connection...

before we understood their NORMAL senses, I'm sure many thought them to be some kind of supernatural awareness... just like with 'witches' and medicine.

[Evoman]

96. Please explain to me why people have to hide their pet theories in the gaps and in ignorance.

The fact is, that "normal senses" are GOOD ENOUGH to explain why SOME animals (read: not all animals) can detect weather phenomena. Yes, it is possible animals have some "universal connection" to the earth...just as it is possible that animals consort with Satan, and thats why they have earthquake knowledge. Or its possible that animals CAUSE Earthquakes with their minds, and thats why they know. I can come up with even more stupid possibilities if you want me to, that are just as hidden in ignorance as the universal connection one.

[redqueen]

97. Why do you characterize it as "hiding"?

In my opinion, I'm only accepting that we don't know everything there is to know about everything in the universe, and since that is the case, there are likely some things we aren't aware of yet or, if some claim to be aware of them... we can't explain why yet.

[Evoman]

99. Its hiding because there are no facts to uphold the "theory" and its continued

existence relies on a statement like "There's a lot we don't know, it could be true". Even though its not. Even though it goes pretty much against EVERYTHING we know. Theres not just not a shred of evidence for that idea, there is a ton of evidence AGAINST that idea. Not only that, but we have an explanation that suffices.

Just because "we don't know everything there is to know about everything in the universe" doesn't mean that you have free reign to come up with bullshit answers and expect anybody to take them seriously.

[redqueen]

100. I don't expect you to do anythinng.

Do whatever you like.

[Evoman]

106. GREAT!

Here is what I'll do. I will give this forum my unbridled opinion, because thats what you taught me to do. I did not think I responded rudely to the person above, so I'll do it now.

EVERYTIME I hear people say "universal connection" or "universal consciousness" or, actually, almost any connection of a word with "universal" I puke a little in my mouth. I think its some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard. I think people like saying it because it makes them feel wise or "enlightened". It makes them sound spiritual and deep. But there is nothing (and remember...this is just my humble opinion) deep, spiritual, or enlightened in postulating something that has no evidence for it, and then pretending that others that do not hold to your Universal Bullshitery just "don't get it" or are not "old souls" or whatever other patronizing asshattery you apply. It is an uncomfortable truth that there is nothing mystic to the universe and that we are just meat bags trying to survive long enough to fuck and breed offspring.

And I wouldn't be suprised if the moderators decided to delete this post. In fact, I would agree with them. I've been rude in this thread. Oh well.

[redqueen]

107. Are you proud of yourself?

By making this sort of post, are you accomplishing what you set out to accomplish?

By the way, I failed to respond to an earlier point you made. I most certainly do have "free reign to come up with (whatever) bullshit answers" I want. I'm sorry that that fact troubles you. It shouldn't. We are on the same side of the fight to restore good governance to this party and this country... it seems to me that you may have forgotten that fact.

It's not as if anyone here is trying to shove their "bullshit answers" down your throat.

[Evoman]

117. Nope.

Am I proud to be rude, simply because I thought it was necessary of me to express some uncomfortable facts? No, not really. In fact, I am completely aware that, although there is truth in what I say, it was completely rude and unbecoming of me. Isn't that fresh? A guy who will admit outright when he is being rude by spouting uncomfortable facts?

"By the way, I failed to respond to an earlier point you made. I most certainly do have "free reign to come up with (whatever) bullshit answers" I want. I'm sorry that that fact troubles you."

You don't have free reign...(i.e. you do not have the right to post something and then not be called on it). I thought that that was what we had established. You spout bullshit, I correct you on it. It works for me.

"We are on the same side of the fight to restore good governance to this party and this country... it seems to me that you may have forgotten that fact"

I've forgotten nothing. Ask many of the theists here, and they will tell you that I have made every attempt to assure them that any disagreements are not personal. I think many of them are great liberals, and I tell them (sometimes on the board, and sometimes in PM) that our arguments are not personal.

Why do you need to remind me that we are on the same side? We are just discussing uncomfortable facts, you and I. We are both expressing ourselves, because we both have the right to post whatever we want? Is it bothering you?

[redqueen]

122. That you don't see any difference

in civil discourse and statements like "I puke a little in my mouth" says all that needs to be said.

"Here is what I'll do. I will give this forum my unbridled opinion, because thats what you taught me to do. I did not think I responded rudely to the person above, so I'll do it now. "

How did I teach you to give your 'unbridled opinion'? What does that even mean? Have I said your opinions make me puke? No, I have not.

"Isn't that fresh? A guy who will admit outright when he is being rude by spouting uncomfortable facts?"

It is not that you spouted uncomfortable facts that is rude... it is words like "asshattery" and the like. Do you not see that?

[Evoman]

125. What? I admitted that I was rude.

What more do you want from me? I just gave my opinion. And yes, the words asshat and puke are a lot more offensive than, say, calling someones thread nasty. But good ol' Evoman never does anything half-assed. HAha..there I go again. I said the word ASS again. Goodness me.

Now, I asked you once. Please don't make me beg. Start a thread as a memorial to someone who was executed (or even just any old person), so that I can interject my uncomfortable facts about that person. You should start with Mother Theresa...I have enough shit on that piece of crap to make anybody cry!

[redqueen]

126. I didn't call your thread nasty. I said your comments were.

Saying the word "ass" is not rude. Likening someones posts to shit is different than just saying the word "ass".

[Evoman]

129. I thought your nasty comment about how nasty my comment on was...uh...nasty.

Especially since the comment you called nasty was in response to your nasty comment taking a nasty dump on a thread from a friend of mine who was being sincere. Since obviously you are always good and proper, and I am nasty and mean, I will finish this post by saying the following:

*fart*

Good day to you, miss. :)

[Tormenta]

118. Why do you let it bother you so much?

You get so angry you puke? That's not healthy.

[Evoman]

119. *rolls eyes* actually, I'm emetophobic. I haven't puked in 16 or so years.

What I do is not ACTUAL vomiting. Its a Universal Vomit, where I jack into the collective conciousness, enter a pregnant women's mind, and then Universally puke through them. Its called empathy puking.

Edit: Changed emotophobic to emetophobic.

[cosmik debris]

120. Is it your Chakra that is puking?

Or maybe your Aura? I get those confused.

[Evoman]

121. Sometimes when I get full of Universal puke, it comes out my third eye.

Silly cosmik debris! Chakras aren't for puking..what you do is open them up, like a blooming flower....and then take a Universal Feces from it.

ON EDIT: I would like to sincerely apologize to Tgrannie. I'm sorry that your thread went so off course. I did not mean it to get this far.

[trotsky]

128. LMAO

:rofl: :rofl:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

54. I can remember flying when I was about 3...

I flew into the kitchen, where my mom was washing dishes; and I tried to get her to turn around and look at me, but she wouldn't. So I flew back to bed and took a little nap.

Later, I asked her why she didn't look at me when I was flying; and she insisted that it must have been a dream...people can't just up and fly, after all. It was terribly frustrating.

Now, as an adult, I look back on that experience; and, knowing that people are physically unable to float around, believe it was a very vivid dream.

I had a similarly vivid flying dream when I was under anaesthetic about 30 years ago. I was having a kidney removed. I dreamed that I was hovering above the table where the operation was being performed. I watched as the surgeon lifted my large intestine to have access to my kidneys. I had no idea that they actually did that until a couple of days after the surgery. But, of course, I couldn't have been flying if they were operating on me...

[redqueen]

94. Might it have been

an 'out of body' experience?

[cosmik debris]

95. Drugs cause hallucinations

Dreams are like hallucinations, and children have wild imaginations.

In stead of accepting any of the obvious and reasonable answers, you reach for an explanation for which there is absolutely no verifiable evidence. Ever hear of critical thinking? You might want to try it sometime.

[redqueen]

98. I have heard of it, and I do it all the time.

Why are you so hostile?

[cosmik debris]

101. I just assumed that you were following the golden rule

Since you have been hostile and disruptive to others, I assumed that you wished to be treated that same way. I may have been wrong. Perhaps you are one of those who have no moral compass. How am I to know?

[redqueen]

103. Please tell me where I have been hostile.

I will definitely apologize... I surely didn't intend to be.

Disruptive, on the other hand, I consider to be most often good thing... as long as it's done with civility and respect. :)

[cosmik debris]

104. Several of your posts in the Bruno thread have been hostile

You are consistently disrespectful of others and rude in general. If you don't like being treated the way you treat others, Just don't do it.

[redqueen]

105. Cite the post number please. n/t

[cosmik debris]

108. I suppose that calling Evoman's comment "Nasty"

Wasn't really hostile, You were just pointing out an inconvenient fact as you say. Perspective is funny that way.

[redqueen]

109. That's called giving my opinion.

I wasn't calling him nasty... I was simply pointing out that what he said was nasty.

You're right, it wasn't hostile. Not at all. In reality, it was a reaction to hostility... yes?

And a very benign one, too, wouldn't you say?

[cosmik debris]

110. And still you blame others

Everyone else is at fault, but your hands are clean. You are the one "without sin" who gets to cast stones. I am soooo jealous! :sarcasm:

[redqueen]

111. Why are you being melodramatic?

I'm perfectly willing to apologize for being hostile. I just don't think I was. If I was, then I will apologize.

[cosmik debris]

112. Of course you don't think you were

That is the very definition of self-righteousness.

[redqueen]

113. No... self-righteous would be

if I declared that I was not rude. I didn't say that.

[cosmik debris]

114. Parsing the language

You said that you don't think that you were rude, but you did not "declare" that you were not rude. But no opinion matters other than your own, so I am sticking with my assessment that you are just being self-righteous.

[redqueen]

115. You are free to use

your own definition of 'self righteous', if you choose.

However, what you said whas demonstratably false. If I didn't believe anyone else's opinion mattered, why would I bother asking you to point out where I was hostile, so that I could apologize?

[cosmik debris]

116. I did point it out

You didn't apologize. That pretty much sums up my case.

Your self-righteousness is demonstrated by your own behavior. Nothing I have said or done could prove it any better.

[redqueen]

123. No, actually, you did not.

What happened was you admitted that what you had originally perceived as hostile wasn't really hostile.

[Tormenta]

124. Sad to see

I'm new to DU and had high hopes for it. It really depresses me that discussions can deteriorate to such silly and pointless arguments.

[redqueen]

127. I will stop. n/t

[Zebedeo]

85. My daughter was a week late being born.

When she was about 2 years old, she explained that the reason she was late was that her eyes weren't ready yet. She also explained to my wife: "You were just a lady, but then I sprinkled you, and you became a mommy."

[moobu2]

87. Homo-sapiens are great mimics.

She was just repeating things she heard back to you.

[Evoman]

88. Lol..my first thought was...."sprinkled her with what now"

What do you sprinkle a lady with to make her a mommy. Pixie dust? Jesus Juice? God spice? Soul Sprinkle?

Ahem..cough.

[DeepModem Mom]

90. I'm not weighing in with any point of view, but I have a very early memory...

of saying to my mother more than once, "When I was a boy...."

(I was a little girl, of course, and a woman now.)

[Evoman]

130. Hey Tgrannie...you got two flamewars in one thread....welcome back, lol.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

133. Indeed!

Wasn't it cool? They weren't too uncivil, really. I thank everyone for their input.

Sometimes I think I could really get into reincarnation, because it makes sense to me that our energy that escapes at death could or should find another home. It's a nice cycle. But I have no proof and it certainly isn't part of my ... er... confirmed faith. Although perhaps Bishop Spong might groove on it, the primates in Africa will not. And they appear to be running the show at the moment in my denomination.

Here's another tidbit for anyone inclined towards reincarnation. My daughter felt a sharp pain in her belly at my dad's funeral. The doctor told her it was implantation pain. Hmmmm. Hmmmm. My grandson is very much like my dad in personality.

And get this. I don't believe at all in astrology, but I have a friend who was born five minutes earlier than I, back in 1950. Her father's name, her sister's name, and her maternal grandmother's name are all the same as in my family, and none of them are real common names like John or Bob. And we met our respective soulmates and husbands on March 25th. We were so similar we finished one another's sentences, and the real klinker is that while we were fond of each other in some ways (we were colleagues) we really didn't like each other very much.

Life is full of mystery. I think my greatest wish is to someday get the answers, but even if my faith is correct, I'm not sure that comes with the package. Damn.

[cyborg_jim]

134. Confirmation Bias

Humans are good at looking for the patterns. That means that we tend to see the areas where things coincide and ignore where they do not. Hence, we are biased to confirm once we find a pattern we like and ignore everything that doesn't conform.

Like I said in another thread, there are enough mysteries without having to create new ones.