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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-10-06 09:50 PM
Original message
Watching an all gay gospel group's Christmas concert in the South
Some good friends of mine are in a gospel group which is breaking up due to one of the three getting a job out of state. It really is amazing where our lives lead us. While they are hardly openly gay, they are moving in that direction. Being gay and religious is often a hard road to take. But it is slowly becoming easier. Even in North Carolina there are enough churches willing to have gays have a role in their churches that a gay gospel group can survive and even thrive with only those churches as play dates.

Sadly even many liberals and gays don't think one can be both gay and Christian. We can be both. Gays are writing stories now where they are married and religious. We have a right to worship God. In college as I came to terms with being gay I also came to terms with not being religious and not being married. I may never find the right guy but I know that if I do, I might actually live to see the day that I can be married.

We are fighting the good fight for the very nature of God. Is God an inclusive God who loves everyone or is he not? We might well be the last frontier for Christianity. If we win this fight, and I think we eventually will, Christianity will be more inclusive than it has ever been. That won't just be good for gays, but for society. Religion can be a liberal, unifying force instead of a backward divisive one. Even liberals who aren't gay or religious, should be rooting for us here. This is a broader battle than you think.
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-10-06 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm rooting for you...
I'm not gay nor do I necessarily consider myself a Christian (I believe in God, but don't claim a particular faith or denomination), but I'd love to see you win this one. Religion has been twisted and manipulated forever to justify all kinds of horrors - the Holocaust, slavery, genocide, homophobia - by people who claim to be religious but are really agents of hate. Enough.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-10-06 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. If God is inclusive, why be a Christian?
Christianity is exclusive, is it not?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-10-06 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. not necessarily
It depends upon what one thinks I am the way means. Some believe that means that one needs to believe in Jesus while others think it means that he will be the way regardless of believing in him or not.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-10-06 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Why not be a Muslim? It's superior to Christianity in many ways -
one being that it's more inclusive.

Some of the biggest misconceptions that many non-Muslims have about Islam have to do with the word "Allah". For various reasons, many people have come to believe that Muslims worship a different God than Christians and Jews. This is totally false, since "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for "God" - and there is only One God. Let there be no doubt - Muslims worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus - peace be upon them all. However, it is certainly true that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have different concepts of Almighty God. For example, Muslims - like Jews - reject the Christian beliefs of the Trinity and the Divine Incarnation. This, however, doesn't mean that each of these three religions worships a different God - because, as we have already said, there is only One True God. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all claim to be "Abrahamic Faiths", and all of them are also classified as "monotheistic". However, Islam teaches that other religions have, in one way or another, distorted and nullified a pure and proper belief in Almighty God by neglecting His true teachings and mixing them with man-made ideas.

First of all, it is important to note that "Allah" is the same word that Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews use for God. If you pick up an Arabic Bible, you will see the word "Allah" being used where "God" is used in English. This is because "Allah" is the only word in the Arabic language equivalent to the English word "God" with a capital "G". Additionally, the word "Allah" cannot be made plural or given gender (i.e. masculine or feminine), which goes hand-in-hand with the Islamic concept of God. Because of this, and also because the Qur'an, which is the holy scripture of Muslims, was revealed in the Arabic language, some Muslims use the word "Allah" for "God", even when they are speaking other languages. This is not unique to the word "Allah", since many Muslims tend to use Arabic words when discussing Islamic issues, regardless of the language which they speak. This is because the universal teachings of Islam - even though they have been translated in every major language - have been preserved in the Arabic language.

It is interesting to note that the Aramaic word "El", which is the word for God in the language that Jesus spoke, is certainly more similar in sound to the word "Allah" than the English word "God". This also holds true for the various Hebrew words for God, which are "El" and "Elah", and the plural form "Elohim". The reason for these similarities is that Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic are all Semitic languages with common origins. It should also be noted that in translating the Bible into English, the Hebrew word "El" is translated variously as "God", "god" and "angel"! This imprecise language allows different translators, based on their preconceived notions, to translate the word to fit their own views. The Arabic word "Allah" presents no such difficulty or ambiguity, since it is only used for Almighty God alone. Additionally, in English, the only difference between "god", meaning a false god, and "God", meaning the One True God, is the capital "G". In the Arabic alphabet, since it does not have capital letters, the word for God (i.e. Allah) is formed by adding the equivalent to the English word "the" (Al-) to the Arabic word for "god/God" (ilah). So the Arabic word "Allah" literally it means "The God" - the "Al-" in Arabic basically serving the same function as the capital "G" in English. Due to the above mentioned facts, a more accurate translation of the word "Allah" into English might be "The One -and-Only God" or "The One True God".

More importantly, it should also be noted that the Arabic word "Allah" contains a deep religious message due to its root meaning and origin. This is because it stems from the Arabic verb ta'allaha (or alaha), which means "to be worshipped". Thus in Arabic, the word "Allah" means "The One who deserves all worship". This, in a nutshell, is the Pure Monotheistic message of Islam. You see, according to Islam, "monotheism" is much more than simply believing in the existence of "only One God" - as seemingly opposed to two, three or more. If one understands the root meaning of the word "Allah", this point should become clear. One should understand that Islam's criticism of the other religions that claim to be "monotheistic" is not because they are "polytheistic" in the classic sense, but because they direct various forms of worship to other than Almighty God. We will discuss the meaning of worship in Islam below, however, before moving on it should be noted that many non-Muslims are unaware of the distinction between simply believing in the existence of only One God and reserving all worship for Him alone. Many Christians are painfully unaware of this point, and thus you often find them asking how Muslims can accuse the followers of Jesus, peace be upon him, of being "polytheists" when they were all "monotheistic Jews". First of all, it should be clarified that the word "polytheist" doesn't really sound right in this context, since to many it implies simply believing in the existence of more than one God. So in an Islamic context, "associators", "man-worshippers" or "creature worshippers" might be more accurate and appropriate terms - especially since Christians believe Jesus to be both "100% God and 100% man", while still paying lip-service to God's "Oneness". However, as we're previously touched upon, what is really at the root of this problem is the fact that Christians - as well as the members of other religions - don't really know what "monotheism" means - especially in the Islamic sense. All of the books, articles and papers that I've read which were written by Christians invariably limit "monotheism" to believing in the existence of "One Sovereign and Creator God". Islam, however, teaches much more than this.
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=71
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-10-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. a gay Muslim
I think not. I can't imagine much worse.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-10-06 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. I'm not sure what you mean. ? nt
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Muslim gays have it very bad.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. As opposed to...?
Just think of all the positive influence you could have if you infiltrated an intolerant Islamic faction and showed them the light. ;)

"One young Afghan woman I've interviewed, if her family found out about her being lesbian they would undoubtedly kill her," Sharma said.

"So it's unavoidable. In certain circumstances, I'm going to have to conceal faces. But I'd rather not."

Still, nothing in that difficult process - including the threats to himself - has destroyed Sharma's faith in the ability of Islam to tolerate diversity.

"You have to understand," Sharma said, "that Islam is a religion of more than a billion people, one more than 13 centuries old, that has been hijacked by an extremely small and sometimes loud minority."
http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/wonews036.htm
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Nice quote.
Really points out the hypocrisy behind the superiority complex some christians have when it comes to their muslim brothers and sisters.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. There isn't a single, solitary Islamic country, not one,
where being gay is legal. Islam is way worse than virtually all forms of Christianity in this regard.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Being a Muslim doesn't require one to live in an Islamic country.
Can you point to any Christian countries where it's legal?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-13-06 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Yeah
Canada, Spain, and the Scandinavian countries all have fully equal rights for gays.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-13-06 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. The UK, also, is a Christian nation...
and while they may not be able to legally get married yet, it is not illegal to be gay there.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-13-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Why do you consider them Christian nations? nt
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-13-06 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. because every single one of them has an official religion
Spain is an officially Catholic country, Canada is officially a Church of England Country and the Scandinavian countries are all officially Lutheran.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-13-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. That's a pretty good reason, but
it isn't illegal to practice other religions there, is it? Isn't their legislature worlds away from the theocratic legislatures of Islamic countries?

I think the point remains that in regards to homosexuality, the religions of Islam and Christianity have much in common, especially if you compare the fundamentalists of both.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. but there are virtually no non fundamentalist Muslims
who have any real power.
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TRYPHO Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Stating the obvious here but...
greyl writes:
This imprecise language allows different translators, based on their preconceived notions, to translate the word to fit their own views. The Arabic word "Allah" presents no such difficulty or ambiguity, since it is only used for Almighty God alone. Additionally, in English, the only difference between "god", meaning a false god, and "God", meaning the One True God, is the capital "G".
--
Ok, I know this is SO obvious to me, but apparently its WAY above your head so I'll tell it simply:

JEWS DONT TRANSLATE IT IN TO ENGLISH!

We read it and understand it AS IS.

Is that too difficult to understand?

TRYPHO
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I don't know what you're arguing about.
Can you dumb it down for me?
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TRYPHO Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Are you serious?
You said a whole load of tosh about the problem in TRANSLATING the old testament word/s for God in to ENGLISH, but JEWS don't TRANSLATE IT - we understand it IN HEBREW?

When you read the word "ALLAH" in Arabic does your brain say "God" or "Goddess" or "Lord" or "Almighty", it must be a real problem for you to have to translate the word in to English with so many mis-translations confusing the gender and status of your divine leader.

TRYPHO.
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cyborg_jim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Translation aside
Human languages are ambiguous beasts.
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TRYPHO Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. its not that, its the tone of greyl's posting which is offensive to me
Read his last sentence:
All of the books, articles and papers that I've read which were written by Christians invariably limit "monotheism" to believing in the existence of "One Sovereign and Creator God". Islam, however, teaches much more than this.
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.ph...
--
Note a) The Url for "the true religion" - sort of says it all really.
note b0 Islam teaches SO much more than ALL the books written by Christians - nice and friendly comment, no bigotry bias or nonsense there.

All I have read from greyl is claptrap diatribe copied and pasted as if he were an intelligent argument forming theorist. Unfortunately all he seems capable of is copying and pasting because when I have made a pertinent comment all he has managed to reply (and I have asked quite a few sensible questions now) is the "I dont understand your question - can you make your point more simply".

FFS.

TRYPHO

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. I seriously didn't know what you were arguing with,
and since you presupposed that your pov was above my head, I jokingly asked if you could clarify.
The confusion is partly because I don't see how your comment relates to the object of your comment.

Did you miss this from the post?:

First of all, it is important to note that "Allah" is the same word that Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews use for God. If you pick up an Arabic Bible, you will see the word "Allah" being used where "God" is used in English. This is because "Allah" is the only word in the Arabic language equivalent to the English word "God" with a capital "G".


Rather than dumbing down your next reply, could you try doing the opposite?
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brer cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-10-06 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. Please keep up the fight, and I will have your back!
I am a liberal Christian in the deep south, and I have been blessed to have shared worship with many gay/lesbian members. God and Jesus are ALL inclusive, and in the end this battle will be won. I thank you for understanding that all Christians are not defined by right-wing fundies.
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cyborg_jim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. "God and Jesus are ALL inclusive"
Ah, if only you get your god and Jesus to agree with that though.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-10-06 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'm rooting for you - indeed I think you will find many many religious folk that have woke up and
Edited on Sun Dec-10-06 10:43 PM by papau
noticed that many of the nicest people are gay, and that Jesus was inclusive.

Good luck in your search for a mate, and enjoy your youth! :-)
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-10-06 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I just turned 39 so I wouldn't exactly call it youth
but I know it could be a lot worse.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-10-06 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. My kids are older than 39 and they are still young from my vantage point :-)
And don't give up on finding the nice fellow that is not afraid of commitment. I know quite a few gay couples that have been together 20 to 40 years.

:-)
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-10-06 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I am just really beginning to look
I was an alcoholic until a little over 6 years ago and have spent some time on recovery. Now I have a good job and am in a place to start looking.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-10-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Well then Congrats - You're on the right path now - and Good Luck :-)
:-)
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-10-06 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. I was sitting in choir this morning, watching the congregation come up
for Communion, and it struck me how many gay and lesbian couples were filing past, I'd say 10% to 20% of the congregation (not to mention the four or five gay men in the choir--no lesbians that I know of).

There are many parishes that are gay-friendly, and I like that, because they also tend to be friendly to heterosexual singles. They don't act as if every adult is automatically supposed to have an opposite-sex spouse, two children, and a house in the suburbs. If a church bulletin advertises "family this" and "family that" or has ONLY age-specific, gender-specific, and marital status-specific activities, that should be a red flag.

A church that has mostly activities that are open to everyone, regardless of status (including study groups, volunteer groups, social activities), is more likely to be gay-friendly. That's been my experience, at least.

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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
23. Like who?
I don't know any gays and/or liberals who think that you can't be both christian and gay.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-13-06 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
28. Your post made me happy.
I'm glad that you have come to terms with religion and your homosexuality. God indeed loves all.
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