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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 02:40 PM
Original message
Hot!! Jeb Bush>Jeff Fisher>Straight School>FBI Cybernet bust.
This established link between Blass and Semler/Sembler of Straight School, referred to by Jeff Fisher to Cybernet bust and Jeb Bush



Now look at my Fisher topic, he said he had hard proof of hacking and that he had called in the FBI. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


As many of you know a Congressman from Florida has alleged that kids in a drug rehab program in Florida "hacked the vote."

Turns out that Jeb Bush is an advisor at said school.



As of October 11, 2001 Jeb Bush, the governor of Florida and brother to the President of the United States, is on the Advisory Board for Straight which now calls itself the DFAF (Drug Free America Foundation, Inc.) And so is his wife Columba! James W. Holton, Commissioner of the Florida Transportation Commission, is on the board of directors of the DFAF. It should come as no surprise to see Jeb Bush tied to DFAF, after all Betty Sembler was his finance cochairman. And then there is SAFE. Straight-Orlando closed on August 14, 1992. On that very day Michael Scaletta Straight - Orlando's executive director (taking Loretta Parish, Straight - Orlando's marketing director, with him) opened SAFE, Inc. out of the same facility Straight had used. In the morning the kids had been in Straight; after lunch they were in SAFE. In late 2000 TV station WAMI from Miami, Florida did a two-day exposition on SAFE. Because Governor Jeb Bush had previously visited SAFE he had been contacted while the segment was being produced to get his thoughts of SAFE. Even though he had been told that the segment was going to be controversial, Jeb Bush sent the station this letter of endorsement of SAFE! Even without Jeb and Columba, the list of names on Straight's Advisory Board is nothing short of extraordinary!. Here they are:


http://www.thestraights.com/news/index.htm#jeb-dfaf <http://www.thestraights.com/news/index.htm >


<http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/nbushmug1.html >
<http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/black-sheep/noelle-bu > ...


Here is a topic on the Cybernet bust
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


I was at first looking at PMing this for private use, but I think its time the public see this.
Interestingly enough, Dr. Piotr Blass is not only significant and real, he has alot of resume background in Michigan state, and otherwise, is connected to a very interesting corporation known as CyberNET Venturs Inc.(which manages all of Cybernets divisions...)
In the allegations report, a certain vendor described that such a network company was financing the operation through Mel Sembler and a few other bad eggs connected to the head of the game map. Another company was described as giving source to certain code.....Turns out CyberN is indeed an open source code distributor to several organizations, ultimately not even limited to voting companies. Also turns out an employee named Guitterez works(or had worked) there and created actual databases for elections across the USA and easily the globe, that are certainly not MS Access.
<http://engrm.com/personnel/gutierrez-alan/experiential.... >



Reply #22
<http://www.walkingwithfisher.com/indexpage1page1.htm > >

If you value children, then sign the Petition above. David Lopez Blassspent his birthday on Monday where twenty-four children are being abused verbally, physically, mentally and sexually. Growing Together has been doing this under the protection of HRS and now DCF over the past 15 years. DCF and Steve Walsh are now conducting a thorough investigation and compiling facts that will lead to their license being revoked.

Then Carolab's response #31:
http://thestraights.com/news/#gt-rape <http://thestraights.com/news/ > Growing Togetehr is a "faith-based" program owned by the Semlers. For those who don't already know: Mel and Betty Semler ran the myriad Straight foundations, in multiple states, and have been sued over/involved in multiple child abuse cases for over a decade.



Then we have Jeb Bush's link to one of Cybernet's affiliates Choicpoint:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Choicepoint +Jeb

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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wow!
:wow:

Now let's all watch the media ignore it!
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. isn't there anyone to report findings like this to?
any lawyer, or SOMEONE who can actually take this information and investigate it? Maybe the info should be sent to Jeff Fisher somehow.
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I spoke with him last night and he reitterated that the FBI
is investigating and that as far as he can tell they are still on the up and up.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. That is what worries me. Fisher is looking alot like Vreeland with all
of the mixed messages about his sanity blah, blah. The FBI seized those computers but what are they doing with them?

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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. yeah, I mean I don't know what to think
Like I said elsewhere, he did sound a little weird but it was after 4am and if everything going on is true...But I really don't know. The biggest hole in the story for me is that it seems a logical fallacy to involve so many people in the actual alteration of the votes and I brought this up to Al and he kind of side stepped it. If they do have actual evidence, then it makes sense to me that they'd keep it under wraps so that whomever did this isn't aware of the specifics of their info but...if you're going to hide the gold until the case can be made why bring any of it out into the open prematurely?
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. It would improve his credibility if the people he claims he is working
with actually confirmed that they are working with him. Fisher claimed that Nader's rep made an "official announcement" that Nader and he were working together on this stuff. Nader's rep says he made no such announcement (per Olbermann). Then Fisher changed the focus away from the announcement that didn't happen to something else, suggesting the Nader rep was out of the loop.

There was a section on his site where Rogers spoke with the DNC legal counsel. Supposedly after revealing the fraud of the century to the DNC legal team that would rock the country, Rogers then goes on to complain about a Florida newspaper reporter and says the paper has been informed (by whom?) that the DNC will sue the newspaper for libel if it doesn't retract a story saying they spoke to Fisher when they didn't actually speak to him directly. Besides the lack of proportionality, revealing stunning election fraud and then complaining about a newspaper story to the DNC, it's simply not credible that the DNC is going to sue a Florida newspaper over something like that.

Sending letters, talking to folks and dropping names is not the same thing as working in concert with those same folks which might lend some credence to his claims.

No doubt Fisher's targeted some shady characters and businesses with influential political connections. But that in itself is not proof of his claims.

And if indeed these guys are not playing with a full deck, this is just the sort of "outlandish" story that some people would love to use to discredit those who presently are working on the ground, performing recounts, audits and investigations. Just a thought.
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. re: Fisher/Zeese
Al said that Zeese was getting hot under the collar about semantics and they were trying to appease him by rewording the message.

I agree with your points.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Stress can cause alot of the mixed messages I see coming from
Fisher. That is not to say that stress "IS" causing this, it is simply possible. IMO what is important is to keep this channel open with all of its weirdness and see what pans out. The fact that people at the Straight School and the Cybernet are linked ads some serious credibility to what Fisher said originally.

If I were to guess now I would say Fisher is being seriously fucked with by the Bushboys. It has happened to alot of others who know damning stuff about the BFEE like Casolaro, Riconosciuto, Hatfield, Vreeland. Fisher needs to get some protection, IMO.


Some of the stuff coming from his website could be put out by somebody else, if his website was hacked.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Fisher
may be a half a bubble off without it, necessarily, impuning his information, although caution does seem well advised. Too bad.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
36. about no messeges from yahoo
somewhere in this thread it said that fisher said that yahoo messages were not getting through. While is was searching for info, i saw that one of the cybernet guys was friends with the yahoo creater.
someone explain to me. is the cybernet business that was busted still the one we are talking about?
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Yep...
That's the one...

I'm a bit confused about their connection, something about some missiing servers and money --
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. They ignore anything.....................
that is derogatory to the Bush Royal Family. You'll never here a peep about it, at least not from the MSM. Bloggers will pick up on it, but then all Bloggers are tin hatted conspiracy nuts anyway. :eyes:
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paz Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. kick.n/t
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. Hi paz!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. It doesn't have to be ignored.
Compile synopsis of important news and advertise in the NYT.
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floridadem30 Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. Interesting, thanks
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JD Lau Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. Oh my god...why does this not surprise me?
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. Another clue?
Edited on Sat Nov-20-04 03:03 PM by BlueDog2u
http://fox17.trb.com/news/111804-wxmi-cybernet,0,956334...

This is very interesting:

"The suit claims the Illinois bank got involved when it helped Cyberco buy equipment from that third company, Teleservices, through a lease agreement. The deal for 70 servers was worth about $3 million.

That may be just the tip of the iceberg. In the complaint, Charter One's lawyers say there's evidence Cyberco may have done the same thing with 70 financiers to purchase 2500 servers. They question whether all of that equipment actually exists."


In other words, the suit alleges a scam in which money is borrowed to purchage servers and possibly other equipment, which either does not exist, is no longer in possession of CyberNET, or simply can't be found.

Hmmm...I wonder where the missing servers could be? The Phillipines? Mexico? Where would you go, if you were setting up an international criminal racket to steal an election? Doing it from a foreign country would have some real advantages, wouldn't it?
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. That was my thought, as well
It could have been done from outside the country
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. Yes
And Jeb Bush is constantly running back and forth from South America and Florida, I'm thinking it's not just for trade.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
44. Good find. Thanks
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GingerSnaps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
178. Swiss Bank?
:shrug:
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. Just a factoid: Fisher is not a Congressman. Ran, lost to Foley. n/t
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks Carl
Edited on Sat Nov-20-04 05:11 PM by seemslikeadream
putting Fisher threads here and bookmarking for reference

UC Berkeley Study Questions Florida E-Vote Count
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

FBI Investigates Grand Rapids Co. (does defense industry softwr/hardware)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Can a DU'er confirm this? Jeff Fisher website is hacked?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Possible connections with Cybernet
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Jeff Fisher: It's the Bay Point School, stupid!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

BBV.org - "Bay Point Schools, Cal Tech, and the CyberNET connection."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Blackwell. Need his ass oughta there. Help
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Some good news from a friend of mine and information for Du'ers to look at
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Jeff Fisher Is A Nut Job
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

This is why you SHOULD NOT BELIEVE Jeff Fisher
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Jeff Fisher story likely a Rove trap, so how do we prevent media blowup?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Jeff Fisher tried calling Blackwell to ask hime to recluse himself
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Jeff Fisher going on the radio airwaves in 20 minutes!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Jeff Fisher - sounding real and real scary... Reader Beware
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

FBI getting involved in the Fla vote fraud ?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Thom Hartmann on Democracy Now: The Ultimate Crime
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Jeff Fisher's charges about Florida
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
PETITION FOR A NATIONAL REVOTE led by Jeff Fisher, Al Sharpton...


Probably the person with the most, hard, documented evidence, and an insider informant, and in cooperation with the FBI is encouraging Americans to sign a petition for a national revote.

http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com /

More from Mr. Fisher --
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Santorum's Kids Cyber School Website - Req to Attend Interesting
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

cybernet news fraud suit
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Grand Rapids - The FBI is investigating a Grand Rapids company
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Wow. Thanks sld.
:hi:
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Mike Nelson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
17. NOW GET THIS STRAIGHT...
What a bunch of crooks. How religious people can fall for these amoral creeps is beyond my understanding.

"Straight" school indeed. From a bunch of drug taking, crooked gay-bashers. Incredible.

Good work, Carl.
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
18. BBV thread here -- DOWNRIGHT SPOOKY!
Edited on Sat Nov-20-04 06:06 PM by Turn CO Blue
BLACKBOX VOTING thread that is calling for researchers

Quote from BBV thread:
"Here is what: We need an astute group of search experts, to find any, and every single tie the one and only CyberNET Ventures has with this issue because it leads straight to the top and back to the whitehouse. So far much information seems to be missing (blank pages) so experts who have background in information management, do your part! Search all the archives and find any and all reports and links of these companies together, linkes to ChoicePoint, links between each party and so on and get this rotton egg hard broiled!"

This BBV thread gave me the willies and Ive been spellbound half the night reading it!


<http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.c... >

This thread is significant, so please dont be put-off by the title of the subject (about CalTech) or the length of the thread.

It gets even more interesting toward bottom with the more recent and todays posts -- the RESEARCH IS AMAZING, the thread is actually about researching and discovering all the ties between the usual suspects of VoterGate:

Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia
CyberNET group (raided by FBI today)
Linux and SourcePlus
ChoicePoint (the felon rolls of Florida)
the Gutierrez family and other shady characters

These people are getting CLOSE!

Finding the "how" becomes much easier once you know the "who" and the "what".

If and when these companies/people are all tied together -- IT WILL BE THE SMOKING GUN, the Theory of Everything.
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Lil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. the 1st link in post is broken. Thanks.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
51. Can we call Woodward Yet?
And I'm still emailong Krugman everytime there's no info. I hope others are also, we need that one respectable investigative reporter who will give this story a chance in the mainstream.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. "emailing, new". n/t
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Mike Nelson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #51
80. Try CARL BERNSTEIN, instead
Woodward's busy...
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MarkusQ Donating Member (516 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #18
105. It's a trap!

Or at least a tar pit. That's the thought that keeps coming back to me as I look through this. Most of the posts on the BBV thread are from one person (who just signed up a week ago), and most of the rest are challenges to explain some goofiness in his logic or substantiate some "fact". He does so be dragging in even more unsupported facts about seemingly unrelated issues--the whole thing goes around in tangled circles.

We sure could spend a lot of time checking to see if there is something to this...

Or we could keep our eye on the ball.

-- MarkusQ
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
19. See post #18. You may want to add your research

to the blackboxvoting research thread.
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zinsky Donating Member (178 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
20. Send It to Greg Palast!!!


www.gregpalast.com

At least he has the balls to do something with it.....
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Good idea. I shot him a copy of this topic
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momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
25. NEW: Found this on a yahoo group. is this true?

I cannot confirm this, but it is worth investigating. Either we are being led on a wild goose chase, or this Jeff Fisher does have important smoking gun.


Message: 8
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:24:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Donna C <donna2222002@yahoo.com >
Subject: Attempted Violation of my First Amendment Rights/Press info

Jeff Fisher <jefffisherforcongress@walkingwithfisher.com > wrote:
To Commissioner Aaronson and everyone I blind copied: Please read this
email and forward this to everyone you know.

Mr. Aaronson is a County Commissioner in Palm Beach, Florida. He is a
Democrat who can be reached at (561) 355-2205 or you can email him at
BAARONSO@co.palm-beach.fl.us .

This to inform you all that the press has been suppressing the news
regarding the recount in New Hampshire, Ohio and the efforts we are making
leading to the possible recount of Florida's certified votes. Ask Mr.
Aaronson to lead the charge in Palm Beach County as he is famous for
fighting for Democracy even when the odds are stacked up against it or
him. Mr. Aaronson is well respected and treated as a hero in the Boca
Raton area and he is very good friends with Congressman Robert Wexler and
State Senator Ron Klein.


Last night my website was hacked into and I can't access it. The
website http://www.JeffFisherforCongress was altered three times in the
past 18 hours by those hackers. The homepage is useless. Most of the links
don't work. We also have discovered that the ElectionFraud2004 yahoo
group through its moderator has been posting messages to the net.
However, since November 16, 2004 none of those messages have reached the
Internet after being posted. ElectionFraud2004 acts like a town center for
people who want to post suspicious incidents and information regarding
this past General Election.

Update to this message: 1:30 p.m. November 20, 2004, the yahoo group,
Election Fraud 2004 posted messages finally came through the Internet.
Whomever had the capability and technology to stop the messages from
going from the yahoo server to the net withheld it for three plus days.
That is how they can stop the news from reaching the people in a timely
fashion.



That is the act of a group of people who are trying to suppress the
truth. I can't prove who they are but let the assumptions begin. I will
find another way to get the message out. I have just begun to fight for
this nation. If you know anything about the book DUNE, then you will
understand "the sleeper has awakened".



Jeff Fisher
561-889-2165



P.S. They have hacked into Bev Harris's computer recently at Black Box
Voting and several people that I have been consulting with in the state
of Washington, North Carolina, New York, California and Minnesota. As
of today I am getting information that blog sites are getting hacked
into also.



Remember, the Watergate break-in was done by a few and it took time for
that to unfold. This time we have the Internet and if "We the People"
spread the word they won't be able to stop all of us.
---------------------------------






Email message from Wake Forest University:
Is the FBI investigation something that seems like it will take a
number of
months or could they potentially have some "official" information prior
to
the final nationwide certification of the election?



My answer to the person from Wake Forest University:

Regarding the FBI: The possibilities meets] are still up in the air. The reason for any hope lies with
information that Russ Baker from The Nation told us yesterday that he thought it
was important, but he didn't have the time or resources to investigate.
In addition, Eve Conant of Newsweek has received copies of documents
from the "sender" that confirmed my earlier statements regarding my
meeting with the sender, when I saw some of the documents regarding the 2000
and 2002 election. The information that Eve Conant received backs up
the senders" statement that it was going to happen in multiple states
during the 2004 General Election. The information Russ Baker revealed
to us on November 19, 2004 was that the sender gave him a copy of
several hundred names and corresponding social security numbers that the
sender claimed were used in the 2000 election to cast votes. Today,
November 20, 2004 we learned that this appears to have happened in
Precinct
16 in Kansas City, Missouri during the 2004 General Election.






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momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. read the part at the bottom
I heard of a democratic grassroots person in Missouri who was concerned that the felon list might have been used to pad voter rolls, and she went to a residence on the registered voter list where several men lived and they told her that they were felons and couldn't vote, but yet they were listed as "new voters" on her list.
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momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. kick
kick
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Mmmmhmmm...
Edited on Sat Nov-20-04 08:24 PM by Woo
I saw that post too -- Maybe we need to find that DUer as well... does anyone other than myself (realise I am now knee deep in tin foildom) think this is important ? In fact -- after I think about this is probably the same person -- her profile says, Kansas -- and the person who made that post said they were in Missouri -- Kansas + Missouri = Kansas City, Missouri

Ah well, that's the extent of my supersleuth abilities...

Maybe someone who speaks to Fisher should ask him -- if people who have seen canvassing reports/documents or might have those doco's in their possession have noticed that tons of felons are listed as 'new voter' -- Does that have anything to do with his case or not?

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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
39. Any chance that was in Kansas City?
Edited on Sat Nov-20-04 09:14 PM by Carolab
Today, November 20, 2004 we learned that this appears to have happened in Precinct 16 in Kansas City, Missouri during the 2004 General Election.

Do you recall, or can you find a source for that?
************

Boy, Kansas City, and Missouri in general, were a REAL mess--the (Repuke) SOS Matt Blunt was also running for governor and using HAVA funds to help promote himself????

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/politics/...
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. HOLY CRAP...
I don't know if this is true --

But from the JEFF FISHER WAS HACKED SITE -- a poster in that thread said she had documents supporting possible fraud... but didn't know who to contact --

According to her profile -- she's in Kansas --


Illuminaugty or something like that is the name of the DUer --

As far as we know Fisher's site was hacked -- (although did kind of make it look a bit better) -- you can't access any information --

Tell Jeff Fisher to keep bobbing and weaving the message will get out --

Said it once(ok, many times...) -- Fisher's story holds water...
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momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. where is the Jeff Fisher was hacked site?
nt
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. SOrry..
Edited on Sat Nov-20-04 07:56 PM by Woo
The Jeff FISHER WAS HACKED THREAD...

hold please... I'll find it. THis thread is also referenced in the Carl Brennan post with all Jeff Fisher related threads

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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GettysbergII Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
35. Emails my wife received from Jeff today.
Mrs. Gettysburg II wants to share a couple emails from Jeff Fisher:

From:
"Jeff Fisher" <jefffisherforcongress@walkingwithfisher.com >
Date:
Sat, 20 Nov 2004 01:06:17 -0500

Tonight they hacked into my site and I can't access it. They have changed my site in the past couple of hours three times. The page is useless. The links don't work.

That is the act of a group of people who are trying to suppress the truth. Ican't prove who they are but let the assumptions begin. I will find another way to get the message out. I have just begun to fight for this nation. If you know anything about the book DUNE, then you will understand "the sleeper has awaken".

Jeff Fisher

They have hacked into Bev Harris computer recently at Black Box Voting and several people that I have been consulting with in the state of Washington, North Carolina, New York, California and Minnesota.


From:
"Jeff Fisher" <jefffisherforcongress@walkingwithfisher.com >
Date:
Sat, 20 Nov 2004 13:02:36 -0500
Top of Form

Bottom of Form
Email message from Wake Forest University:
Is the FBI investigation something that seems like it will take a number of months or could they potentially have some "official" information prior to the final nationwide certification of the election?

My answer to the person from Wake Forest University:
Regarding the FBI: The possibilities are still up in the air. The reason for any hope lies with information that Russ Baker from The Nation told us yesterday that he thought it was important, but he didn't have the time or resources to investigate. In addition, Eve Conant of Newsweek has received copies of documents from the "sender" that confirmed my earlier statements regarding my meeting with the sender, when I saw some of the documents regarding the 2000 and 2002 election. The information that Eve Conant received backs up the senders" statement that it was going to happen in multiple states during the 2004 General Election. The information Russ Baker revealed to us on November 19, 2004 was that the sender gave him a copy of several hundred names and corresponding social security numbers that the sender claimed were used in the 2000 election to cast votes. Today, November 20, 2004 we learned that this appears to have happened in Precinct 16 in Kansas City, Missouri during the 2004 General Election.




From:
"Jeff Fisher" <jefffisherforcongress@walkingwithfisher.com >
Date:
Sat, 20 Nov 2004 13:10:38 -0500
Top of Form

Bottom of Form
Regarding the FBI: The possibilities are still up in the air. The reason for any hope lies with information that Russ Baker from The Nation told us yesterday that he thought it was important, but he didn't have the time or resources to investigate. In addition, Eve Conant of Newsweek has received copies of documents from the "sender" that confirmed my earlier statements regarding my meeting with the sender, when I saw some of the documents regarding the 2000 and 2002 election. The information that Eve Conant received backs up the senders" statement that it was going to happen in multiple states during the 2004 General Election. The information Russ Baker revealed to us on November 19, 2004 was that the sender gave him a copy of several hundred names and corresponding social security numbers that the sender claimed were used in the 2000 election to cast votes. Today, November 20, 2004 we learned that this appears to have happened in Precinct 16 in Kansas City, Missouri during the 2004 General Election.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
38. Can somebody help me here?
I've done almost nothing since the election but read this board, send $$ for recounts, and write letters. Somehow I can't connect the dots on this one. I've seen several threads dealing with Jeff Fisher and read some of them. I guess I stopped when I thought people were saying his story didn't hold water.

I'm asking for some kind soul to give me a summary of what is going on with this story. Surely I'm not the only one having trouble.
:crazy:
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Chimpanzee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. You are not the only one - I must have missed the memo
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. BlueDog2U's back of the envelope summary
Of the Jeff Fisher fraud allegations.

Fisher alleges that Piotr Blass, a computer tech scientist, has information regarding the training of juvenile delinquents to hack the vote in 2004 and in previous elections. Allegedly the Bay Point School, a conservative Christian boarding school for delinquents, has been involved in this activity. The school and its affiliates have a long history of accusations of abuse, both torture and sexual abuse, of former inmates. Grassroots campaigns and legal actions have not succeeded in shutting the school down, perhaps in part because of protection by powerful GOP Floridians allied with the school's ultraconservative "Christian" ideology. According to Fisher, Blass has been reluctant to speak out because he is protecting Joseph Klock, the lawyer for Katherine Harris with strong Bush family ties. Klock apparently assisted Blass in his efforts to have his son released from detainment at Bay Point.

The best summary is here:

http://www.rense.com/general59/FLORID.HTM


Allegedly, Blass has connections to the Grand Rapids Michigan Company, CyberNET, which was recently raided by the FBI.

http://www.mlive.com/news/muchronicle/index.ssf?/base/n...


DU investigation includes several corollary leads:

1) Is CyberNET Group (http://www.cybernet-usa.com /), the Grand Rapids Company which has been raided, the same as Cybernet military industrial company (http://www.cybernet.com/products /), also in Michigan? Answer unknown.

2) What exactly is Blass's connection with CyberNET Group? I haven't seen clear evidence of the link.

3) What is the Bush family's connection with Bay Point school and its affiliates? There seems to be a strong family connection to Jeb, as well as to Klock and other Bush operatives in Florida.


I'm sure there are some other issues as well, but these are some of the most obvious ones. I hope this summary helps.

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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. BlueDog2U's---THANK YOU!!
:yourock:

BTW--I spent a few minutes reading the link to BBV and it is amazing what they are coming up with.

Again, BlueDog, thank you!!
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #49
63. You're welcome
Always a good exercise, to try to summarize and condense the confusion in a few pars.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #45
65. Nice summary, thanks. Dr. Blass is the man we need on the witness
stand, if he won't blow the whistle. This thing is metastisizing. I can feel it.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #65
103. Will Blass blow the whistle if he has his own skeletons in the closet?
What are his ties to Bay Point, Cybernet, and who knows what else?
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #45
66. A relevant anecdote (perhaps)
I am a BBV vounteer for my county. My function is only to request, obtain and relay the needed data from my local elections supervisor to the crew at BBV. A foot-soldier. Nothing more. Uninteresting data from a medium sized county in an unimportant state. I managed to complete that function last night.
But, last Tuesday night I was reading Jeff Fisher's website and relaxing with a beer or two. Then I cruised over to the BBV Clean Up Crew Forums to see what was shaking. Someone had just posted the curriculum vite of Dr. Pietr Blass and I read it.
The resume listed a cell phone number. I don't quite know what possessed me ( it happend almost in an instant ) Perhaps it was empathy for someone who was protecting someone who had helped his son out of a mess superimposed on my passion to get to the bottom of all of this. But I called it.
A man with a european accent answered, "Dr. Blass ".
Astonished, I dove right in, " Dr. Blass. I am a volunteer for an organization investigating election fraud. If Jeff Fisher's allegations are true, I undestand that you want to protect Jeff Klock because he helped win your son's freedom. But the information that you are reported to have is crucial to the freedom of millions of americans."
Obviously startled, He responded, " who are you?"
I replied," I am a volunteer for Blackboxvoting. Please go to the media. It's the only thing that might save us."
and then I hung up.
Believe me folks. I'm not one with delusions of grandeur and I know my place. usually.
Since I am a frequent caller to The Mike Malloy Show on Air America, I called Kathy the asst. producer who handles call screening. " Kathy, It's Wiley. I think I just screwed up royally........".
She told me that I had not harrassed the guy and acted out of duty and compassion and not to worry about it.
Good. I've confessed to the world. I expect your criticism.
So much for first impressions on my first post.

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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #66
76. hee, hee. If Blass comes forward I'll buy you
a beer. You never know. I sure hope you made him think.

:toast:
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #66
77. Wow
I'm impressed! Excellent work. If Blass does speak up, we will have you to thank, among others!
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Mike Nelson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #66
82. We are all but tiny cogs...
...in the great wheel.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #66
136. How about calling him again and ask him if he worked for
any company with the name Cybernet, or CyberNET in it?


Also ask him how he pronounces his first name.

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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #136
145. Carl, It's someone else's turn this time
The curriculum vitae is posted on BBV and available elsewhere, I'm sure. I don't want to take any chance to be accused of harrassment. Although, I think it's a valid approach ( if he's still using that cell phone )

Wiley
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #145
149. We also have to be sure he is Blass and not somebody else.
:tinfoilhat:
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #136
146. as far as pronunciation
with his accent it sounded like it was spelled with an ah,phoneticaly
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #136
147. OOP! you said his First name
I think it's the same as Peter ( and he appears to be living up to his name, if I must say )
And I must.

Wiley
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #136
153. FYI Cell Phone number
AND THE NUMBER WAS:
561-523-1701

LET THE DOGS OUT!!!!!!

WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
40. Find links to ACCENTURE
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/91...

Gov. Jeb Bush has repeatedly denied any partisan motive in how the list was developed. Bush spokeswoman Jill Bratina said Thursday that the governor was concerned about the felon list's failure to include Hispanic felons and has asked Secretary of State Glenda Hood to do an audit. Hispanics in Florida tend to lean Republican.

``Our No. 1 goal is to have integrity in our elections, to have a smooth and fair election process,'' Bratina said. ``There are people out there who have an agenda, and that agenda includes eroding confidence in Florida's elections.''

The rights commission has a contentious history with Florida leaders, especially former Secretary of State Katherine Harris. After the 2000 presidential election, commissioners released a draft assessment of the election in Florida that called Harris and Bush ``grossly derelict in fulfilling their responsibilities.''

The commission toned down its language in the final report, but Commission Chairwoman Mary Frances Berry made it clear Thursday that she hasn't forgotten - or forgiven - recent history.

``The whole reason why we're having these proceedings is to keep alerting the country to the fact that there are problems, and to try to put people's feet to the fire to make sure they try to solve the problems,'' Berry said. ``So far what we have from Ms. Hood is just a sliding away from the problems.''

Jenny Nash, a spokeswoman for Hood, said the secretary of state was ``disappointed with the partisan tone'' of the commission meeting. Hood sent a letter to the commission detailing the state's decision on the felon list, but did not attend.

``If they're going to investigate, we would welcome the Department of Justice and work diligently with them,'' Nash said. ``We feel that we have followed the law and what the Florida statutes mandated.''

The commission also called on Accenture, the company that helped develop the database of potential felons, to defend its work.

The state paid the firm nearly $2 million to develop the central voter file and to create a way to screen rolls for felons who haven't had voting rights restored.

Accenture took on the contract after a similar list released before the 2000 election removed thousands of voters from the state rolls. An NAACP lawsuit helped establish new list guidelines.

Accenture executive Meg McLaughlin said the company was unaware of the flaw that failed to spot potential Hispanic felons.

She also said that state officials were well aware that the list could be flawed. That's why individual county election supervisors were ultimately given the task of vetting the list, McLaughlin said, and her company's job was merely to help develop the database.

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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. OMG--ACCENTURE: LOOK!!!!
Edited on Sat Nov-20-04 09:39 PM by Carolab
http://www.whoseflorida.com/our_voice-winter-2004.htm#B...

Allegedly, Jeb (acronym for John Ellis Bush) wants to rid anyone who monitors him or his administration. He wants to rid anybody or anything that wants safe air, safe water and wants to make government workers a bad name. He wants to give his buddies huge contracts, so his friends earn gigantic salaries while the rest of us struggle to pay utility bills or "put food" on our tables.

Take Accenture, for example. Gov. JE BuSh hired this company (who took its offices out of the U.S. so U.S. laws don't apply to them and they don't have to pay U.S. taxes) to produce a computer and communications' service. http://www.accenture.com/xd/xd.asp?it=enweb& ;xd=index.xml

The consulting firm that broke away from the crumbling Andersen Worldwide empire in 2000 is paring its payroll in Houston (Arthur Anderson who reportedly destroyed documents in the Enron scandal). Accenture, which lists Bermuda as the company's corporate home, broke away from parent company Andersen Worldwide in 2000. Accenture's job is to privatize government and outsource the jobs to private companies (aka BuSh pals). The company has had serious problems in OH, NY and Ontario.

http://www.polarisinstitute.org/corp_profiles/public_se... .

Allegedly, Accenture was paid 90 million for the Business & Professional Regulation contract, gets paid $10,000. for each government worker the company can rid and will be the only company that could maintain and keep this program running!

IT GETS BETTER:
Offshore Company Captures Online Military Vote 7/16/03 EcoTalk: "Last year, while President Bush marshaled U.S. forces for the invasion of Iraq, the patriots at the Department of Defense awarded the contract for a new online voting system for the military... to an offshore company. It gets worse. Secure Electronic Registration and Voting Experiment (SERVE) is the system and Accenture (formerly Anderson Consulting of Enron bankruptcy fame) is the company. And although Accenture has not been officially implicated in the Enron scandal, they have created a reputation of their own that is already raising eyebrows."

http://www.blackvoternetwork.com/votefraud.htm

The Canada-based Polaris Institute published a scathing report on Accenture, saying, "Accenture's efforts in government outsourcing have often been very expensive and/or of poor quality. There is good reason to question Accenture's track record in outsourcing of government services."

Accenture is the leading offshore beneficiary of government contracts whose main business is the privatization of government services, according to Lee Drutman of Citizen Works, a non-profit founded by Ralph Nader. Accenture has a troubling track record, a close business relationship with Dick Cheney's Halliburton, and 2500 partners - more than half are not U.S. citizens.

In March 13, 2000 Andersen Consulting (now Accenture) and Microsoft signed a "$1 Billion Pact To Form Joint Venture and Expand Global Alliance." What's the alliance? To control voting systems around the world?

July 2000 David Lesar succeeded Dick Cheney as Chairman and CEO of Halliburton Company. Before joining Halliburton, Lesar was employed by the Arthur Andersen, Accenture's former parent company. Polaris says, "while defending Halliburton's accounting practices, David Lesar publicly acknowledged that Cheney knew about the firm's accounting practices..."

In an October 2001 press release, Halliburton and Accenture announced a major expansion of their longstanding relationship with the signing of an alliance between Accenture and Landmark Graphics Corporation, a wholly owned business unit of Halliburton. Can anyone at the Pentagon spell "national security"?
.... DonnaQuixote, 2/15/04


Accenture has a troubling track record, a close business relationship with Dick Cheney's Halliburton and 2500 partners - more than half of whom are not U.S. citizens.

Since 2001, Accenture and Election.com have been strategic partners "to jointly deliver comprehensive election solutions to governments worldwide," according to their press release.

In June 2003, Accenture bought the public-sector election assets of Election.com, which suffered its own scandal this year when it was discovered that Osan Ltd, a firm of Saudi and other foreign investors, bought controlling interest in it.

According to Mark Harrington of NewsDay.com, "Several shareholders of the company said they were surprised by the recent buyout and have asked for securities regulators to investigate."

Election.com has had other problems.

In January 2003, during Canada's New Democratic Party leadership convention, the Canadian Broadcasting System reported, Earl Hurd of Election.com said he believes someone used a "denial of service" program to disrupt the voting paralyzing the central computer by bombarding it with a stream of data service was restored."

"Toronto city councilor Jack Layton's victory on the first ballot surprised many, who had expected a second or even third round of voting before a leader was chosen from the pack of six candidates."

For election security experts, a strong and growing suspicion is that computer glitches or disruptions are actually vote rigging.

A surprise election result should raise a red flag.

Accenture is big. It has more than 75,000 employees in 47 countries, and generated net revenues of $11.6 billion for the fiscal year ended Aug. 31, 2002.

On their Board of Directors is Steve Ballmer, Microsoft's CEO and known to many as Bad Boy Ballmer for his ruthless, if not illegal, business practices.

Microsoft has been sued by the federal government and several states for monopolistic business practices which were designed to destroy their competition.

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=3...

AND:Nader Urges Bush to Cancel Homeland Security Contract With Accenture
Today, Independent Presidential Candidate Ralph Nader urged President Bush to cancel the largest Homeland Security contract ever awared. The contract was awarded to Accenture, a foreign corporation based in Bermuda. Nader criticized the decision saying "Awarding up to a ten billion dollar contract to Accenture a company that is undermining US fiscal needs by avoiding payment of US taxes is shameful."

June 7, 2004
George W. Bush
The White House
Washington, DC 20500

Re: Awarding contracts to companies that avoid paying US taxes

Dear Mr. President:

I was astonished to learn that your Administration has awarded the largest Homeland Security contract ever to a foreign corporation that has incorporated its corporate offices in Bermuda to avoid paying taxes in the United States. Awarding up to a ten billion dollar contract to Accenture a company that is undermining US fiscal needs by avoiding payment of US taxes is shameful. The contract is for Accenture to develop systems for exit and entry controls on our border. You could not find a US chartered corporation for this outsourced task?

Two years ago Accenture lobbied Congress against legislation that would have barred the new Homeland Security Department's contracts from going to corporations which exploit tax loopholes and are incorporated in tax havens. Accenture helped ensure that corporations which fail to pay their fair share in US taxes can still receive US tax dollars in government contracts. In 2003 the Senate unanimously endorsed an amendment by Sen. Mark Dayton that would bar homeland security contracts to firms that duck taxes by incorporating in offshore tax havens. Senator Dayton was following the late Sen. Paul Wellstone who won Senate approval for a similar measure. But behind closed doors in a House-Senate conference committee, Republicans largely scuttled Dayton's amendment, which was included in a soon-to-become-law omnibus bill.

On April 15, 2004 you said you wanted to "make sure that the system is fair for those of us who do pay taxes" and that "we want everybody paying their fair share." Therefore, I urge you to invoke whatever clauses permit you to void these procurement services. Further, you should strongly support legislation to prevent corporations that avoid paying US taxes from receiving contracts in the future. It is time for authentic patriotic standards to be applied to corporations.

Sincerely,

Ralph Nader

http://www.votenader.com/media_press/index.php?cid=43



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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. O boy, Carolab
You just hit the jackpot!

ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching.

This is really hot stuff.

Kick it high!
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Accenture just got a 10b Homeland Security Contract
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. Let's focus on this for a moment
Since 2001, Accenture and Election.com have been strategic partners "to jointly deliver comprehensive election solutions to governments worldwide," according to their press release.

In June 2003, Accenture bought the public-sector election assets of Election.com, which suffered its own scandal this year when it was discovered that Osan Ltd, a firm of Saudi and other foreign investors, bought controlling interest in it.

According to Mark Harrington of NewsDay.com, "Several shareholders of the company said they were surprised by the recent buyout and have asked for securities regulators to investigate."

Election.com has had other problems.

In January 2003, during Canada's New Democratic Party leadership convention, the Canadian Broadcasting System reported, Earl Hurd of Election.com said he believes someone used a "denial of service" program to disrupt the voting paralyzing the central computer by bombarding it with a stream of data service was restored."

"Toronto city councilor Jack Layton's victory on the first ballot surprised many, who had expected a second or even third round of voting before a leader was chosen from the pack of six candidates."

For election security experts, a strong and growing suspicion is that computer glitches or disruptions are actually vote rigging.


************************************************************

If you look for election.com, this is the new link:

http://www.accenture.com/xd/xd.aspit=enweb&xd=industrie... \government\gove_democ.xml


The link doesn't work, if you want to use it, cut and paste it into browser bar. Sorry...

This is the outfit that the military vote was going to be entrusted to until some folks in the Pentagon, I think it was, kicked up a fuss about the lack of security in having internet voting. But I think the problem is obviously deeper. This is Arther Anderson's old cronies, still the cronies of the Bush family, being generously rewarded with $10b homeland security contracts...hmm...and they are into elections also, and they "glitched" the Canadian NDP convention. hmm
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Saudis dump U.S. Voter Firm--Adnan Khashoggi (Iran-Contra)
Edited on Sat Nov-20-04 10:33 PM by Carl Brennan
Ubi pecunia.....ubi patria
Where my money is.......where my country is.


Saudis Dump U.S. Voter Firm (VERY VERY interesting)
This topic is packed with good info with replies from Bev Harris and others. Adnan Khashoggi........and connections to selection 2000!!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/du...

LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-03 AT 04:39 PM (ET)
Inspired by another post at DU (Thanks Nambe and madfloridian)

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/du... >

<http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/5/29/1742... >
READ ENTIRE ARTICLE - yes I know it's Newsmax - even one or 2 freepers got hot over this one..
Saudi/Yemen Link to Online Election Company

Election.com, a privately held New York-based election software firm, currently holds a contract with the Defense Department to provide online absentee ballot voting for the U.S. military in 2004.
However, Election.com also recently revealed that its majority stockholders were a group of Saudi businessmen who did not want their names to be known.
According to a February 2003 article published in Newsday by Mark Harrington, in "a letter sent to a select group of well-heeled Election.com investors Jan. 21, the online voting and voter registration company disclosed that the investment group Osan Ltd. paid $1.2 million to acquire 20 million preferred shares to control 51.6 percent of the voting power."
According to the Newsday article, Osan Ltd. purchased "passive control" of Election.com using money obtained from foreign sources. Osan Ltd. is described as an investment group made up of unnamed Saudi businessmen.

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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Accenture's "E-democracy" voting systems
Edited on Sat Nov-20-04 11:14 PM by Carolab
Overview

Accenture E-democracy Services is wholly dedicated to delivering comprehensive election services to election agencies around the world and to helping them achieve high performance.

Accenture eDemocracy Services has the experience to help election agencies prepare to manage every election successfully. With the full strength and resources of Accentures global organization, Accenture eDemocracy Services can help you quickly apply leading industry practices in customer relationship management, program management, technology and strategy.

Accenture is a recognized leader in delivering innovative solutions to meet the economic and organizational challenges of government and business. Accenture eDemocracy Services delivers a full suite of solutions designed to help election agencies manage the crucial 364 days that culminate in the casting of votes.

More: http://www.accenture.com/xd/xd.asp?it=enweb&xd=industri...
10/27/03; Vol. 18 No. 15

Accenture elects VeriSign for e-voting

By JOAB JACKSON

Troops overseas to use online system for absentee ballots
As recent headlines have shown, building a foolproof electronic voting system is difficult. A successful system must protect the voter's privacy while ensuring strict accountability of each vote cast.

For the Defense Department, Accenture Ltd., Hamilton, Bermuda, is developing an online voting system that can be used by military personnel out of the country to cast absentee ballots. This is part of a $10.5 million contract from the Defense Department's Federal Voting Assistance Program.

"We're replacing the postal system with the Internet system," said Meg McLaughlin, chief executive of Accenture's eDemocracy Services practice.

To firmly establish the identities of the people casting votes, Accenture is using an online, managed, digital certificate service from VeriSign Inc., Mountain View, Calif.

By using the public key infrastructure support system that VeriSign already has in place, Accenture eliminates the need to set up and maintain its own service for establishing and checking the digital credentials of voters, McLaughlin said.

The project, known as the Secure Electronic Registration and Voting Experiment, will enable troops, their dependents and other military personnel stationed outside the United States to vote in 2004 primary and general elections. Using a Web browser, these users can vote over the Internet from any military computer. The local jurisdictions provide the appropriate voting forms electronically to the voter.

Thus far, seven states have signed up to use the service in the 2004 elections. Accenture expects 100,000 participants to use the service next year.

The identities of the military personnel are verified through the Defense Department's Common Access Cards, which personnel must use to sign onto the computer. The card has the user's public key, an encrypted number that will be verified over the Internet by VeriSign. Nonmilitary users will use a password and must answer a series of personal questions to gain voting privileges.

The system is immune from tampering by its unique design, McLaughlin said.

The system establishes an encrypted channel between the voter and the voting officials in local election offices. After receiving the votes from absentee voters over the Internet, officials feed the results into their jurisdictions' vote tabulations. Once cast, a vote does not appear on a computer screen, so a voter cannot sell his or her vote by providing photographic evidence of it.

Because the potential for abuse is so great, both government and citizens scrutinize e-voting heavily.

As a result, Accenture "needed a facility that is incredibly, physically secure," McLaughlin said. It also could not suffer any downtime during elections.

VeriSign hosts two domain name root servers that help provide the basic Web address index for the Internet.

"We've made enormous investments to make sure we have a high-performance environment. From that infrastructure, we are able to leverage these services for our customers," said George Shu, vice president of business development for VeriSign.

For instance, four major telecommunications carriers simultaneously serve the facility in Dulles, Va., that holds a root server to ensure constant uptime. It also has an advanced disaster recovery backup measures in place.


VeriSign also simplifies Accenture's infrastructure management.

"The fewer vendors you have to manage, the better. Because VeriSign has the digital certificates and the ability to get them to the users, it makes it easier for us to work with them as one entity," McLaughlin said.

In the market for digital certificate products and managed services, VeriSign competes with Baltimore Technologies plc, Hertfordshire, U.K., and Entrust Inc., Addison, Texas. VeriSign reported revenue of $1.2 billion for 2002, against which it lost $5 billion, due largely to amortizations and write-downs in goodwill and intangibles, according to the company.

VeriSign is banking on agencies increasingly requiring digital certificates for e-government initiatives and in-house security. By offering digital certificates as a managed service, VeriSign estimates that a buyer can save weeks or months by not setting up the solution itself, said Barry Leffew, VeriSign's vice president of its public-sector group.

Accenture established its eDemocracy Services practice last June to pursue what officials expect to be a growing market.

Thus far, the company has done voter database work for Florida, a number of pilot e-voting programs for the United Kingdom. France, Sweden and Italy are also looking at trial programs, McLaughlin said.

"We think Internet voting is coming. It won't happen overnight. It will be an evolutionary process," McLaughlin said. "But we'd like to be there and we think the Federal Voting Assistance Program is a really important one in getting us out there."

If you have an innovative solution that you recently installed in a government agency, contact Staff Writer Joab Jackson at jjackson@postnewsweektech.com .



http://www.washingtontechnology.com/news/18_15/emerging...


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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #59
74. Are you ready for some MORE about Accenture?
LEAKY BORDERS
Visitors from other countries arent consistently screened for terrorist ties.
The US-VISIT program, a $10 billion contract, recently was awarded to Accenture Ltd.,. an offshore company initially called Andersen Consulting when it was formed by partners in Arthur Andersen LLC, the accounting firm disgraced in the Enron debacle.
The program is operating at some of the nations entry points 115 airports, 14 seaports and few land borders.
The largest nondefense contract awarded by the federal government, the fingerprint-scanning system has drawn fire from experts who say it doesnt thoroughly match visitors fingerprints against international terrorist watch lists.

Department of Homeland Security officials say time will improve the system.

Its something that over time will be upgraded and expanded and will ultimately try to capture complete travel records when a foreign traveler arrives and departs the U.S., said DHS spokeswoman Kimberly Wiseman.

Although the system has resulted in 700 to 900 hits of immigration violators and those wanted for crimes such as rape and murder, Wiseman admitted it hasnt snagged a terrorist that I am aware of.

Wiseman also admitted visitors to general aviation airports arent subject to similar scrutiny. We dont have those federal inspection areas for private jets, she said, adding DHS is considering adding mobile units.


Also, the US-VISIT contract requires only a portion of the nations land border entry points be monitored by the end of this year.
Recent government intelligence reports have suggested the porous Mexican border might be attractive to terrorists staging in Latin America.
A U.S. House aide who recently toured the Mexican border said she was startled to find many border guards without radios.
As for the US-VISIT system monitoring alien departures, part of its mandate, just three pilot projects are under way in Baltimore, Miami and Chicago.

(and to read more: http://newsrus.blogspot.com /)
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #59
101. Nice Work
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #101
108. subsequently realized you had already mentioned this--sorry. -nt
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. I've now wrapped my entire body in reynolds wrap...
WHY ON EARTH -- would the Saudi's be interested in a company that helps develop voter solutions for 'governments' -- (i.e. U.S. of A.) --- now that's just odd -- does anyone else thing that's odd -- once again, maybe it's just me.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #62
70. I'm completely wrapped in reynolds wrap, too.
If you want to double wrap yourself, just go read the thread that links to the BBV thread!!

:tinfoilhat:
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. We now see why Dubya is so eager to bring democracy into every country -nt
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Great title of an article: "Why Dubya has suddenly become a
Edited on Sat Nov-20-04 10:59 PM by Carl Brennan
crusader for human rights and democracy: He knows how to "fix" their election process".

Excellent point.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #53
125. I wonder if they were involved.....
Did Accenture and Election.com have any part of the election in Afghanistan? :eyes:
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
41. "HI My Name is Barton Watson"
Edited on Sat Nov-20-04 10:06 PM by Must_B_Free
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2578803&nav=0R...

"Sources tell 24 Hour News 8 the investigation involves wire mail fraud and bank fraud. The allegations are something the company's owner and CEO Barton Watson is familiar with, as he was convicted of fraud in the 1980s. He served three years in a federal prison and was released in 1989."

----

Barton Watson III
Chairman, CyberNET Group and Chairman, Stryon

Mr. Barton Watson has been the Chairman and CEO of the CyberNET Group since its inception. He is recognized as an industry leader and much sought after speaker. His vision and clear goals have set the tone and pace for CyberNET Group success. Mr. Watson brings a unique combination of expertise based on his experience as an investment banker, technologist, entrepreneur, investor, and large company CEO. Mr. Watson holds an MBA from Stanford and a BA from the London School of Economics. He has also served on several industry advisory boards. Prior to forming the CyberNET Group, he was responsible for executing large-scale leverage lease transactions for a major bracket Wall Street firm and had founded several successful companies.

http://www.aamasv.com/events_SPEAKERSBYEVENT.php

----

HI My Name is Barton Watson and I split my time between Grand Rapids, MI and Vail, CO. After a 10 year career as an investment banker with a global firm, I left to form my own companies. I am the Chairman and CEO of The CyberNET Group which we use to create technology companies world wide. As a result of this geographic diversity, my travel plans tend to cover 6 continents and keep me on the road 3 weeks per month. I am 43 years old, married and breed horses as a hobby. I tend to spend most of my time on the AA, NH, UA, SQ, CX and BA boards since these are my primary airlines.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22HI+My+Name+is+Barton+...
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4democracy Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Have you sent this info to BBV?
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. It didn't seem to be anything important.
When the bust in GR broke I was curious about this guy and found these little info. Didn't mean anything to me, but thought I'd post it in case it was relevant to someone.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
55. O Man
We need sixty minutes on this also.
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
56. Kick This Topic!
Others need to know.
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stirringstill Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
57. CyberNet overkill?
Could someone please state the connection of the CyberNet to Fisher because the original email that linked the two really didn't say. Only that CyberNet had been raided by the FBI. Just because a company has been raided by the FBI doesn't mean it is connected. And to say CyberNet was linked to Diebold does not mean much if the two names appear on the same web page. Diebold probably has vending machines that have Coke cans but that does not mean Coke and Diebold are in bed together. What possible service did CyberNet perform?

Also, I've never seen anything linking Blass to CyberNet other than both have links to Michigan. Blass got his PhD in Ann Arbor, but that doesn't seem like much of a link to me. I'm not saying that CyberNet is not important, perhaps it is, but many many other potential rewarding lines of investigation remain unexamined on Piotr Blass CV and this are definitely worth scrutinizing. I do not know what to make of the Fisher story but it does seem promising and Fisher has directly linked Blass to the whatever happened. Blass's CV is striking for several reasons. (1) It places him at BayPoint Schools in '03. (2) Why was Blass employed at Baypoint? It likely had to do with computers but it doesn't take someone of Blass's experience to network the school or run their computer lab. He was way way over qualified. Still that does not mean anything in and of itself since people often find themselves doing things that they are overqualified for. (3) Why did Blass's son become incarcerated in '04 at the very school at which Blass was once employed? (4) If his CV is genuine, then it is striking for several reasons. He went to undergraduate in Poland in the 70's and then went to graduate school at Harvard and the U. Michican. So, Blass apparently emerges from behind the Iron Curtain to receive postgraduate education in the US. He has published a number of academic articles. He has also worked for a number of companies and has a number of computer skills which may be relevent. Perhaps those companies and skills of Blass's are worth mining?


Another blog about the Fisher story made a big to do about Accenture. I do think that that link merits attention, definitely because of connections to voting lists in multiple states and (to a lesser degree Enron). The problem is that Accenture is a BIG company. It's like saying IBM or Microsoft. So, just because one can google Accenture and the name of another company doen't mean much in and of itself.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. DISAGREE
They run an "E-Democracy" voting section. They are linked to Andersen Consulting-Enron-Halliburton and Jeb Bush's "felon rolls". They are offshored in Bermuda. They got a HUGE homeland security defense contract. They are linked to the Saudis.

What MORE do you need to think Accenture is a big deal here?
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Hmmmm
Do you think the person above you is fishing? No pun intended.
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #60
67. Umm,
I need you to stay up until 3 am exhausting yourself trying to convince me of the obvious....because by nature I am a skeptical person...can't you just tell by the precise and carefull way I worded my post? Shame on you, you tinfoil hat blogger.

/irony off

:toast:

You rock, Carolab! Don't get distracted.
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stirringstill Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #67
81. Great contribution
Fishing? I have contributed to the Fisher story since it broke on DU and have defended Fisher threads (eventhough Fisher seems a bit wacky) on DU and on Kos so please spare making it personal and pissing on someone who actually typed more than a sentence. I was the first one to post on Choicepoint (inspired by Palast's research) in a DU Fisher discussion last week. Voter list control is central if not the key. As with CyberNet, I was just fearing that people were going to post every blessed person or company that has every had anything to do with Accenture and that would damage the Discussion since the waters would be muddied. Example: Accenture sponsors a PGA golf tournament.
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #81
91. My Apologies
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 01:27 AM by Unforgiven
Can't be to careful these days.
Sorry
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #81
100. Apologies also
You raise some important questions. Let's try to answer them.
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stirringstill Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. Agreed
You are absolutely right that Accenture is very very promising. But Accenture is a giant company with thousands of people who are likely oblivious to anything related to what is going on. Accenture is simply one of the largest accounting firms in WORLD. (One could say the state of FLA is important, too.) I was simply encouraging encouraging us to dig for names and positions and responsibilities. Example: what states did accenture control voting lists? What division of accenture? Who were the state and company contact people etc. I think voting list control is perhaps the key to any fraud scenario.
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Ok
Those are good questions. I agree there are plenty of holes, or unanswered questions, about Cybernet Group, although I have a feeling there is a valid connection there also. Just a hunch but Accenture, behemoth that it is, is obviously up to no good here, or shall we agree, that the company is apparently being used, by some, for anti-democratic purposes. So yes, we need to focus in on exactly where one might look for the needles in the haystack.
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #60
90. Maybe Bin Laden knew what he was talking about? Edited part...
This was cut out of the sanitized version of the transcript of bin Ladin's speech.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A...

"So he took dictatorship and suppression of freedoms to his son and they named it the Patriot Act, under the pretence of fighting terrorism. In addition, Bush sanctioned the installing of sons as state governors, and didn't forget to import expertise in election fraud from the region's presidents to Florida to be made use of in moments of difficulty."

my tinfoil moment?!
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #60
98. Wisconsin awarding Voter List Contract to Accenture....UGH!!!
October 23, 2004
Wisconsin officials are currently in negotiations with Accenture to create the state's first list of registered voters.

This project is estimated to cost more than $20,000,000 in its first phase alone. Accenture, the powerful information management company created computer software that allowed Florida officials to keep track of 9 million voters. (HUH?)

Accenture created this new computer software because of the consequences of the 2000 Presidential Election. Accenture will work with state and local clerks to create a system of registering and keeping track of 4 million residents who can legally vote. The list of registered voters has requirements that need to be adhered to to make it a success.

1)the list has to link to information on driver's licenses, death certificates, and other similar instruments. In addition, the list has the daunting task of keeping track of voters from Milwaukee.

Hopefully, the list will fix potential fraud problems that leaders from both political parties fear will happen in the future. The system will catch voters who are registered twice, convicted felons who are not permitted to vote, and voters with two different addresses. Other companies that were in the running for this government contract, Covansys and EDS, are not expected to protest Wisconsin awarding the contract to Accenture.

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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #57
69. Agreed
The CyberNET connection completely confuses me -- probably because I don't really see a strong connection -- someone said that CyberNET is connected to Mel Sembler... who is alledgedly funneling money to these Bay Point Schools -- I don't know how they're finding the connection with Blass -- then there's some mysterious guy named Guiterrez that builds databases for elections... he once worked for CyberNET -- all in all I haven't seen enough evidence to say if there's something there or not -- I think we're stretching a bit.

Accenture, when dealing with this story is something to look in to though...

NOW --what you have just read is what the logical side of me thinks

The tin foil hat -- conspiracy theorist says:::

There was information posted today talking about money that CyberNET borrowed for some servers -- but the servers have disappeared -- nowhere to be found --

AHA --

Someone wanna take a trip to Bermuda? :)
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Someone wanna take a trip to Bermuda?

Sure.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. See the original post
Piotr Blass with Cybernet and David Lopez Blass at the Florida kids school. Fisher was not BSing when he said the school was involved in hacking, etc. and the FBI was on it.

Only thing I wonder about, is did Fisher put to much trust in the FBI?
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. How does your post
establish a connection between Blass and Cybernet Group?

We see the connection to Bay Point. But how do we get to Cybernet? If that connection were really a solid one, then this line of inquiry would be a lot less flaky than it is right now.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #75
84. Here
I was at first looking at PMing this for private use, but I think its time the public see this.
Interestingly enough, Dr. Piotr Blass is not only significant and real, he has alot of resume background in Michigan state, and otherwise, is connected to a very interesting corporation known as CyberNET Venturs Inc.(which manages all of Cybernets divisions...)
In the allegations report, a certain vendor described that such a network company was financing the operation through Mel Sembler and a few other bad eggs connected to the head of the game map. Another company was described as giving source to certain code.....Turns out CyberN is indeed an open source code distributor to several organizations, ultimately not even limited to voting companies. Also turns out an employee named Guitterez works(or had worked) there and created actual databases for elections across the USA and easily the globe, that are certainly not MS Access.
<http://engrm.com/personnel/gutierrez-alan/experiential .... >



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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #84
96. Your link is gone
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 04:20 AM by Bozos for Bush
I hope you guys copy/paste these webpage articles you're finding to Word or something, as well as copying URL addresses - this is the third link that has vanished in the last 12 hours.

John

BTW great research here!

:yourock:
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #84
99. So,
you are saying that because Blass has worked in Michigan, that constitutes a connection with CyberNET, because it is also in Michigan? I'm sorry, but you can't go into court with this.

Also, your link doesn't work.

I'm open to being convinced on this; I just haven't seen any hard evidence yet.
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. Fisher-FBI
...........did Fisher put to much trust in the F.B.I.?

This is what bothers me as well. Did he (Fisher) just tip his hand or can the FBI be trusted?
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. hmmm...
I guess I'm going to have to look through that info again -- I'll take your word for it with Blass -- so he's hooked up with CyberNET eh?--


I don't know much about FBI leadership... but the Bush admin has not really made a lot of friends in the old establishment -- what they're trying to do now is purge that element and put their guys in --so in agencies like the CIA and FBI -- I think the old folks realize how crooked these guys are -- they know that Condi Rice was crap at her job and she allowed 3000 American's to be sent to their death and didn't do a thing to stop it-- and they know Bush sent another 150,000 kids off to look and die for something that didn't exist...

I've got a small amount of faith that we're dealing with the good guys... whatelse can you do?
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. why would you take anyone's word for something this critical?


I guess I'm going to have to look through that info again -- I'll take your word for it with Blass -- so he's hooked up with CyberNET eh?--

I'm still waiting for an answer myself.
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #83
87. All in all
-- whether there's a connection or not ... it's not up to me... --I'm just about as credible as Jeff Fisher at this point ...


So I'm happy to accept that CyberNET is connected to Blass/Sembler(I will go back and look over the information... but it gives me a headache mostly...and makes little sense to me)... I don't think the connection is critical at this point because it doesn't mean anything without knowing why CyberNET was raided... I still maintain going from what I know of CyberNET's business ventures that we're probably stretching.

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Mike Nelson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #79
85. The Purged Seek Revenge
Won't the purges prompt some of the freed birds to sing?
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #85
89. Already singin'
The purged are already singin' -- just not about election fraud unfortunately -- one can dream.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #73
93. How about this?
CyberNet Group Offices Raided
November 19, 2004 -- (WEB HOST INDUSTRY REVIEW) -- According to reports, the offices of Web hosting provider The CyberNet Group (cybernet-usa.com) were raided this past Wednesday by agents of five different federal agencies, including the FBI and IRS.

{snip}
The reason for the raid is unclear. However, sources say the investigation involves wire mail fraud and bank fraud.

According to one report, a lawsuit against The CyberNet Group was filed in Kent County Court on Thursday, charging the company with fraud and breach of contract. The suit alleges that The CyberNet Groups founder and chairman Barton Watson and chief operating officer James Horton are operating a fake company, based in Delaware, to funnel money.

===============
Where to, I wonder?

Cybernet Group are also at http://www.cybernetgroup.com , and are aka CyberCo Holdings. I'm curious about the fact they have three global development centers in mainland China and a regional sales office in Hong Kong. Barton has been a speaker at AAMA -- Asia America MultiTechnology Association. Isn't Neil Bush into China as well, so to speak? Grace Technologies or something, microchip firm? Not proposing a link, I'm sure business interest in China is high. Just struck me.

P.S. Cybernet -- http://www.cybernet.com -- appears to have nothing to do with Cybernet Group.
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TennisGuy2004 Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
86. HOLD IT!!!! WAIT ONE COTTON-PICKING MINUTE HERE!
Here is an excerpt from that "Common Dreams" article from Nov. 6th:

---On the CNBC TV show "Topic A With Tina Brown," several months ago, Howard Dean had filled in for Tina Brown as guest host. His guest was Bev Harris, the Seattle grandmother who started www.blackboxvoting.org from her living room. Bev pointed out that regardless of how votes were tabulated (other than hand counts, only done in odd places like small towns in Vermont), the real "counting" is done by computers. Be they Diebold Opti-Scan machines, which read paper ballots filled in by pencil or ink in the voter's hand, or the scanners that read punch cards, or the machines that simply record a touch of the screen, in all cases the final tally is sent to a "central tabulator" machine.---

VERMONT DOES HAND COUNTS. VERMONT IS THE STATE WITH BY FAR THE LARGEST SHIFT TOWARDS JOHN KERRY FROM THE 2000 ELECTION - OVER 10%!

AM I ONTO SOMETHING HERE????

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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #86
88. Tennis guy
Start a separate thread (post this topic separately)--okay?
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s-cubed Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #86
157. vermont shift to kerry
There is a thread that starts out with something like "red shift to kerry", where he is doing a statistical analysis and notes that Vermont is noticably different. Your comment might be helpful there. (I tried to find the link, but I'm pretty new here & couldn't - is there a search function?)
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
92. Bearing Point & Accenture

Posted on Wed, Jul. 28, 2004


STATE GOVERNMENT


Tech office is taken to task

BY GARY FINEOUT

gfineout@herald.com


TALLAHASSEE - A scathing state audit slams Gov. Jeb Bush's technology office for violating state purchasing laws when it handed out more than $300 million worth of high-tech contracts last year, including work to the same company the state hired to build a controversial central voter database.

Florida chose Accenture and BearingPoint to take over various high-tech duties, including the operation of the state's website. Both companies have high-powered lobbyists with long-standing ties to Bush and the Republican Party of Florida. Accenture has gotten paid nearly $2 million to build a database meant to help weed out dead people and felons from the voting rolls, but the accuracy of the list has come under fire in recent weeks.

A 20-page report from the state's auditor general lists numerous examples of state officials failing to follow rules and laws when it awarded a series of contracts to the two companies. The audit flatly states the state technology office ``could not demonstrate it had ensured fair and open competition for all vendors.''

Auditors looking at the deals say that the technology office never justified the initial bid to vendors, that final evaluation criteria was not consistently applied to all vendors, and that Accenture did not address all the bid requirements.

The audit says that the technology office can't prove the most qualified vendors were awarded contracts. It also states that Accenture and BearingPoint have been given work not even included in the initial bid and that the state can't prove that the privatization effort will yield savings to taxpayers.

(more)http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/9258487.htm?1c


BearingPoint: Why Did Its Boss Bug Out?
Business Week Online
By Louis Lavelle
Monday, November 15, 2004 (Originally Published: 11/12/2004)

Warning signs showed up when KPMG Consulting went public four years ago. Its bread-and-butter business -- the integration of big-company computer systems -- was showing signs of a slowdown. But for the company now known as BearingPoint (BE), it wasn't the worst of times, either. In the post-9/11 world, CEO Randolph C. Blazer had managed to build a large and growing business providing technology services for government agencies.

Alas, that government business continues to be one of BearingPoint's few bright spots -- and on Nov. 10, Blazer paid the price. Amid signs of growing board dissatisfaction with his performance, he resigned without explanation, handing the reins temporarily to board member Roderick C. McGeary, 53, while the board seeks a permanent successor.

Repeated efforts to reach Blazer to comment for this story were unsuccessful. McGeary, in a statement, credited Blazer with leading the BearingPoint through a period of growth, referring to its $1 billion purchase of European consultancies in fiscal 2003.

FALLING MARGINS. Why such impatience with Blazer? As the consulting industry crawled through a two-year downturn, BearingPoint has been unable to cut costs or raise prices. High taxes and expensive subcontractors have kept costs up, while increased competition from offshore technology services companies such as Infosys Technologies (INFY) and Tata Consultancy Services has diminished its pricing power.

Result: Operating margins are now hovering at 4.5%, down from a previous five-year average of 7.4%. BearingPoint's stock was off about 11% for the year before Blazer called it quits, a drop steeper than the 4% decrease for the Russell 1000 Technology Index as whole.

After the news broke of his departure, BearingPoint stock jumped 9% on Nov. 11, to close at $9.81. Indeed, the announcement came as a bit of a surprise. Last week, the company reported third-quarter profits of $11.9 million on revenues of $840.9 million, below analyst estimates. But revenues were up 13% year-over-year. BearingPoint said fourth-quarter net income would be 9 cents to 11 cents per share on sales of $850 million to $870 million, guidance it reiterated on Nov. 10.

CENTER OF A STORM. That continued earnings strength is due in large part to BearingPoint's growing public-sector business, which now accounts for 40% of revenues and 55% of gross profit. While revenues from federal, state, and local government agencies declined 8% in the third quarter -- due in large part to the temporary suspension of its work promoting economic reform in post-war Iraq -- analysts say the sector represents one of the few consistently bright spots among BearingPoint's eight lines of business.

But the sector is now at the center of a storm in Florida that some analysts worry may eventually scare away new government clients.


(more) http://eai.ittoolbox.com/news/dispnews.asp?i=123875
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 03:20 AM
Response to Original message
94. Wait a minute!! We're getting our Cybernets confused!
From Gutierrez's CV (1998-2000):

"ODBC Connector for Cybernet Systems Corporation
Developed a bridge between a real-time data collection application and relational databases.

Implemented in C and C++ for the Win32 API."


That is NOT Cybernet Group, the one busted by the FBI, headed by Barton Watson. Gutierrez worked for Cybernet Systems Corp, "founded in 1988 as a research and development company committed to creating robotics technology solutions and advancements to human-machine interaction." This Cybernet is also in Ann Arbor, MI.

Even more important, on further inspection I believe the Gutierrez connection was established in ERROR after someone found this case online: Online Policy Group & Ors -v- Diebold Election Systems. Please note that this order references Cybernet Ventures, the AdultCheck firm...not Gutierrez's employer! And it's only mentioned in a quote from a separate case -- Perfect10, Inc. v. Cybernet Ventures, Inc. Judges use quotes to source law they're basing their decision on.

So unless someone can still link Cybernet Systems Corporation or Gutierrez to Blass, I think we're on the wrong path here.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #94
95. Ah HA!
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 03:35 AM by Carolab
That explains when I was searching for Accenture and CyberNET I kept getting links to Accenture and Cybernet (Systems Corporation or Ventures).
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #95
109. It is hard to rule out a connection between the cybernets
Despite the smoke and mirrors
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #94
102. Thanks
for the clarification.

I suspected there were some wonky links here. But we should continue to pursue some of these leads. I still think that it may not be a coincidence that the FBI closed in on CyberNET Group so soon after Fisher's complaint surfaced.
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regularjoe Donating Member (358 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 04:22 AM
Response to Original message
97. All this stuff is both amazing and confusing at the same time!
I'm going to have to sit down for about 8 hours and find all the links between people and places and cite the sources. I really want to understand but it is such a tangled web. Anyway, if I actually do get a chance to do this I will post my results. Anyone else want to help or split the work, PM me and we can pick starting places.

regularjoe

P.S. A simple and organized summary of all of this would really help it spread to other people.
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
104. kick; you might be onto a whole lot of things
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
106. Just Posted at BBV
This is the best critical debunking I've seen of the sometimes sloppy thinking that has gone on regarding this subject.

The thread is here: http://www.blackboxvoting.org/dcforum/DCForumID4122/56....

The response is to a poster named "auditor" at BBV, by "Space Cowboy":


The "Bay Point Schools, Cal Tech, and the CyberNET connection." thread is pure disinformation. I don't know if "auditors" is an overzealous true-believer, a conspiracy nut, or an agent provocatuer; but you believe his/her posts at the peril of your own credibility.
One of the deadliest traps set by an authority structure, such as a company or government, is disinformation. By that term, I mean the deliberate release of some true information mixed with some false information. Should it picked up, the power structure says, "Look! Lies!"
and the gullible say, "Because the one part is false, all must be false! And because the person or organization that said this is wrong now, they must always be wrong!" Thus, no matter how true or carefully verified anything ever again said by that person or group about the power structure, it is dismissed out of hand.
The lesson to be learned is to not engage in _any_ speculation - believe only provable facts.
Two of "auditors" posts, messages 21 and 55, are pretty much copy pasting of text from the links he/she cites. My purpose is to refute what "auditors" says, not what "auditors" quotes other people as saying.
Herein is a point by point refutation of the thread. Fact check my counter-claims. Don't assume that I or any information I offer is any more trustworthy than the person(s) or information I am discrediting.


******
Claim 1: "You might be very interested to know that Dr. Blass, is connected to a largescale corporation in Michigan state known as Cybernet Ventures Inc. (Engineering, medical, all other divisions include) and that this very company had a funny little tie in with Diebold."

Proof offered: None

Claim 2: "But the most interesting part of all, is CyberNET's own interest in Diebold, and helping them out of some dirty circumstances...."

Proof offered: http://www.eff.org/legal/ISP_liability/OPG_v_Diebold/pl...

Truth: http://www.eff.org/legal/ISP_liability/OPG_v_Diebold/pl...
CyberNet Ventures, Inc 8189 Van Nuys Blvd , Los Angeles - porn site operators sued by other porn site operators for copywrite infringement This case was one of several cited by Diebold when trying to supress publication of internal company email on the same grounds.

+++++ NOTE: "auditors" confuses many companies with similar names and eventually says that they're all the same company. This is demonstrably untrue.

CyberNet Ventures, Inc http://www.adultcheck.com / is a large porn site company in Los Angeles, CA
CyberNet Systems Corp. http://www.cybernet.com / is a mid-sized defense contractor in Ann Arbor, MI
Cybernet Software Systems http://www.cybernetsoft.com / is a mid-sized software development company in San Jose, CA
Cybernet Research http://www.cybernet.net.uk is/was a British ISP
CyberNET Group http://www.cybernet-usa.com / owner of CyberNetCo (the raided company), an ISP in Grand Rapids, MI Run by an ex-con named Barton Watson, the famous raid concerns a US$33 million bank loan Watson allegedly obtained through fraud.

Likewise, in his statements concerning VA Linux, "auditors" confuses two other similarly named companies:

Sequoia Capital Partners - http://www.sequoiacap.com / 3000 Sand Hill Road Bldg. 4, Suite 180 Menlo Park, CA
Sequoia Voting Systems - http://www.ecotalk.org/VotingMachineCompanies.htm See about half way down the page for the ownership history of Sequoia Voting

******
******
Claim 3: "More interesting though, is the fact that if you look and sniff around it appears CyberNET (who is also, direct finance of the white house and ambassador) had its systems freely distributed among universities...Schools, teaching sites, and so on everywhere. And more interestingly also worldwide."

Proof offered: None

Truth: Unknown - which CyberNet is being talked about? Also unknown - the meaning of the statement, "(who is also, direct finance of the white house and ambassador)"

******
******
Claim 4: "Another company was described as giving source to certain code.....Turns out CyberN is indeed an open source code distributor to several organizations, ultimately not even limited to voting companies. Also turns out an employee named Guitterez works(or had worked) there and created actual databases for elections across the USA and easily the globe, that are certainly not MS Access. "

Proof offered: http://engrm.com/personnel/gutierrez-alan/experiential....

Truth: http://engrm.com/personnel/gutierrez-alan/experiential.... under heading "Software Development Contractor", - meaning freelance developer - among other jobs, it says:

"Voter Information Database for Publius
Developed an application that generated preview ballots for voters. The application was deployed in Michigan for the November 1998 elections. Voters were able to retrieve a preview ballot using their name and city. The preview ballot provided information about candiates and links to candiate web sites.

and

ODBC Connector for Cybernet Systems Corporation
Developed a bridge between a real-time data collection application and relational databases."

+++++Auditors conflates two minor, seperate contracts, one for the State of Michigan and the other for a company with CyberNet in its name into "created actual databases for elections across the USA and easily the globe"

******
******
Claim 5: "And of course on top of all this, ChoicePoint government who controls voting name rosters, being issued by Jeb Bush to directly not only take off the felon purge lists, but keep them as well. Authorities issued repeated orders for him to turn it off and instead he saved all the names to some hard drive and area around there in order to use them all again later."
Proof offered: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,65377,00.html...

Truth: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,65377,00.html... The article doesn't say anything remotely like "auditors" claims it does. Further, ChoicePoint does not control voting rosters. They supply "purge lists" to those that do control voting rosters. For the whole story read Greg Palasts book The Best Democracy Money Can Buy.

Claim 6: "ChoicePoint is a government run company who is in charge of voting names, other civil records."

Proof offered: http://www.cpgov.com /

Truth: http://www.cpgov.com / "Headquartered outside of Atlanta, ChoicePoint employs approximately 4,200 people in more than 50 locations. ChoicePoint shares are traded on the New York Stock Exchange under the symbol CPS."

******
******
Claim 7: "Of course the vote totals were flipped: Using obvious malicious code of rigged names across the board, some that possibly don't even exist (see: evicted felon/citizen roster) and even adoptions for all anyone knows."

Proof offered: None

Truth: Something stinks. Is it fraud, incompetence, or both?

******
******
Claim 8: "Schools involved clearly are not the only ones as Cal Tech and universities constantly stating the exit polls mean nothing, are all possible suspects too."

Proof offered: None

Truth: Exit polls really don't mean much.

******
******
Claim 9: "Several reports I've seen states they are the same CyberNET...I'm not sure what level this goes to, as many pages on the net seem to be not found (removed)"

Proof offered: http://thewhir.com/marketwatch/cyb111504.cfm

http://www.mlive.com/businessdirect/stories/index.ssf?/...

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Xz3RPLTEWvAJ:liber...

Truth: The links "auditors" posted contain no information that has any bearing on anything. However, the ownership and histories of the individual companies can be verified. See the note under Claim 1.

******
******
Claim 10: "Also there's lots more information on CyberNET too when you dig into it deeper. They created some software called "SourcePlus" control most information systems/websites and other equipment ChoicePoint has for the offices, worked on election databases through the 90s and so on."

Proof offered: None

Truth: http://ww1.prweb.com/releases/2001/10/prweb29346.php SourcePlus is a marketing scheme in which a company that buys a hardware/software bundle from CyberNET Group also gets free tech support for the bundle. It is not "software". It does not and cannot "control most information systems/websites."
Nothing on any CyberNET Group page indicates ChoicePoint is a customer. Nothing on the ChoicePoint website indicates they are a customer. Nothing through google.com indicates they ever did business together. Likewise, nothing on CyberNET Group's website or via google.com indicates CyberNET Group has had anything to do with election databases in the 90s or _ever_.

******
******
Claim 11: "Guitterez people (his family) are on the official committees, other election boards, these guys are connected to NASED and even Sequoia owns part of CyberNet...This is all hooked into Linux, the rivals use both Linux and Windows NT Plus: The actual source code they sold off like crazy is called SourcePlus(NetMAX) and is used in nearly every single thing to do with elections there is....."

Proof offered: None

Truth: This is a little complicated so bear with me. Apparently, the "Guitterez people (his family)" refers to Alan Guitterez, the software engineer discussed under Claim 4. Short of asking Mr. Guitterez about his family, I see no way to prove or refute this claim.
At this point "auditors" again confuses CyberNET Group with CyberNet Systems and Sequoia Voting Systems with Sequoia Captial Partners when saying "Sequoia owns part of CyberNet." This isn't true. I'll come back to this in a moment.
SourcePlus(NetMAX), "actual source code they sold off like crazy," is two different products sold by two different companies. As shown under Claim 10, SourcePlus isn't software. NetMAX is a product of CyberNet Systems: http://www.netmax.com /. NetMAX products are based on the Linux 2.4.9 kernel and derived from RedHat 7.2. They are typical server/vpn/firewall applications - not voting system related at all.

Claim 12: "Sequoia voting owns ALL of VA Lin and is tied to CyberNET at the top....."

Proof offered: None

Truth: http://news.com.com/VA+Linux+founder+becomes+paper+bill... Sequoia Capital Partners, not Sequoia Voting Systems, bought 25% of VA Linux (now VA Software) in 1999.

Claim 13 "GEMS is all really a windows NT program, and Diebold supposedly owns that...."

Proof offered: None. In fact this contradicts part of Claim 11 regarding Linux being "used in nearly every single thing to do with elections there is....."

Truth: http://www.blackboxvoting.org / Diebold uses a customized version of Windows CE.

******
******

I have not refuted every assertion by "auditors." This does not mean I consider those statements to be factual, only that this is getting tedious. Also, this person has made some claims so baseless and offered proof so irrrelevant that contradicting them is a waste of time. I refer to messages 34, 36, 52, and 55 in particular. If I were Alan Guitterez, I would consider suing "auditors."
I don't know "auditors" motivation in making these posts, but anyone believing them needs to increase their medication dosage.

Disgustedly,

Space Cowboy

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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #106
116. When sleuthing, don't throw baby out with bathwater
I don't believe it is fair to dismiss, at this point in the game, all unproven theories and potential clues as fodder for the gullible and unscientific, and a distraction from the task at hand, as some come to define it.

It is part of the information gathering process to search for possible clues in disparate areas. Clue gathering has to be done without bias or assumption, and we do need to keep that in mind. But we also should consider all potential clues, then sift the wheat from the chaff as apparent connections and theories begin to emerge. This is the way good investigation works, I believe, or it as least ONE method of good investigation.

It is difficult to know who and what we are dealing with, and hard to tell what is relevant or irrelevant at this point. But sometimes, what seems to be irrelevant and insignificant in the beginning ends up being the opposite in the end.

So until I see concrete proof of connections or lack of connections, I will keep an open (though confused) mind.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #106
134. Thanks for that. This thing is obviously more complex
than the original post. One of my links is gone, the main one so that even adds to the confusion.

Great job of tracking this down.

:toast:
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spoogly Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
107. The CyberNet at issue is a Delaware Corporation
registered to do business in Michigan. Actual Delaware corporation name is CyberNet AsiaPacific.

See this link:

http://www.cis.state.mi.us/bcs_corp/image.asp?FILE_NAME...
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jdog Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #107
110. space cowboy
makes some really good points. I haven't been able to understand the link with Cybernet-USA and thought maybe I missed it, but it was the fact that Cybernet got raided by the FBI that made me start looking at this closer because it seemed to lend some legitimacy to the story. The Guitterez information is also difficult to assimilate. Since we have so many people online looking into things there doesn't seem to be any real downside to continuing to check out this story so long as nobody tramples on other people's rights. Facts, not speculation are, as usual the important thing.
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #110
111. I agree
"the fact that Cybernet got raided by the FBI that made me start looking at this closer because it seemed to lend some legitimacy to the story"

The point of my posting was not to throw cold water on this line of pursuit. It was to make sure that we don't go flying off the handle making unfounded supposition after supposition.

The raid on Cybernet Group is definitely an interesting and probably very significant fact. Go Team!
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #111
126. An addendum...
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 11:16 AM by Woo
I think the main problem with all this information flying around is people addressing speculation as fact --

Such as: You might be interested to know that CyberNET...

Automatically I might give weight to a statement like this --

Anyway -- I do think I read correctly regarding CyberNET now -- I don't think I've been spreading disinformation... especially since I don't understand it fully myself -- What I do understand is the actual crime itself seems to be unfolding in a way very similar to what Mr Fisher describes... which is why I say the story definitely holds water -- the who and why have yet to be present itself as concretely as the evidence of fraud.
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #107
112. Did you take a screenshot?

Cause all I get is a missing graphic.

Did it disappear that fast, or is there a problem with the link?

From now on, people, we should screenshoot everything! Stuff maybe disappearing as fast as we hook to it.
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jdog Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #112
113. So, can someone explain to me, what IS
the connection with Cybernet?
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #112
114. Missing graphics on Michigan state website
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 10:36 AM by BlueDog2u
This link should take you to the page which lists all the Michigan corporations which have cybernet or cybernetics in the name. Search under Company name "Cybernetics" and you'll see about twenty or thirty listings. If you then click on those and follow the links to "images" you will see that very many of these images (I tried about four and got the same result each time) are broken links.

That makes me wonder if in fact many of these companies are spinoffs of the same parent corp., and if the FBI or someone else has already removed the critical information.

Comments, anyone?

http://www.cis.state.mi.us/bcs_corp/rs_corp.asp
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #114
115. Reality Check

I tried searching for the graphic documents of other corps on the site, and for some reason *none* of them seem to work. It seems odd that a State website would be that screwed up, but anyway that's the story....for what its worth.
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #115
117. email of inquiry sent to Michigan State Department of Labor
And Economic Growth...

Dear Sir or Madam,

I have been attempting to do some research on Michigan corporations on your site this weekend and noticed that all of the links to visuals of corporate documents are apparently inoperable. At first I thought that only selected documents were missing, but on further investigation see that a wide sampling, and perhaps all, of these are not available. I wonder if you would be kind enough to clarify the reason for this problem and let me know if and when these resources will once again be available for public inspection.

Thanks,

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spoogly Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #117
121. I am not having any problem accessing the documents
they are in .tif format.

Very common that a company would be incorporated in Delaware. Then registered to do business in the State of Michigan. A little odd that they are incorporated in Delaware under AsiaPacific name and registered to do business under another name. But that is not really that uncommon either; as long as the actual company name is indicated on the Michigan business registration; which it is on the form I am looking at.

There are a ton of CyberNet companies out there. Many just in Michigan. I just wanted to be sure we are talking about the right one. Some of them could have connection to the primary one. That would need to be researched. could be joint venture companies etc.

The one I am looking at is signed by Barton H. Watson, III
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #121
122. aha!

Why doesn't my computer see tiffs?
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #114
120. They worked for me
If you are talking about, eg.,"CYBERNET GROUP INTERNATIONAL, INC.",click on it and it takes you to "APPLICATION FOR CERTIFICATE OF AUTHORITY 9/13/2001", with a camera symbol at the left. If I click that I get the image. Is that what you mean?
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #120
123. Yes
All I get is a broken link image. But thank you for clarifying the problem.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #112
127. How do you do a screenshot?
I'm either doing it wrong or there's something wrong with my computer.
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #127
129. Good question
Can someone else explain? But also not that this appears to be a false alarm. Apologies. But if someone can give a screenshot tutorial that would be great.
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neohippie Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #127
133. how to take a screenshot
If you have an IBM PC type of computer, then it is relatively simple.

1. display what you want to capture on your screen
2. press the print screen button on your keyboard
3. open a program like microsoft word or wordpad
4. hold the control key and the v key at the same time or you can choose edit and paste from the menu

5. you should now have an image pasted into which ever rich text editor you used
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #133
135. Thanks Neohippie
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #133
140. Thank you.....n/t
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #107
118. DELAWARE connection--both AnnArbor and Grand Rapids Cybernets
...thought this was big at first, but I have learned the state of Delaware offers relatively easy and inexpensive set up for corporations
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #118
119. Right
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 10:58 AM by BlueDog2u
Delaware is the Bermuda of the Continental USA. So, actually its not insignificant. My research indicated that the corp now known as Cybernet Group originated in Utah in 1985 under another name. The Cybernet name comes from a subsequent merger/buyout with a German company by that name.

To me the Utah connection is interesting because it suggests a possible Mormon influence. That the company is now big into porn actually makes sense in that regard if you think about capitalism and religion...
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spoogly Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #119
124. I suppose there could be a connection there
but the company I am looking at has papers signed by Barton Watson. III. I saw the Utah company. It looked to me to not be related. But I didn't really dig into too far.
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #124
128. There still seems to be a confusion about which of these
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 11:57 AM by BlueDog2u
entitites is which. Here is my post from another thread which gives the best official records on the possible players. This shows that CIS, the company which lists Barton Watson as resident agent, originated in Utah (I got that part right), but also suggests that this is not the same as the company raided by the FBI (we both may have been confused about this):

CYBERNET INTERNET SERVICES INTERNATIONAL INC (0001070658)


This is the US Securities and exchange commission # for "Cybernet Internet Services." Don't know if that helps because I'm not sure what we're looking for....

This address:

BUSINESS ADDRESS:
STREET 1: POWELL GOLDSTEIN FRAZER & MURPHY
STREET 2: 1001 PENNSYLVANIA AVE NW
CITY: WASHINGTON
STATE: DC
ZIP: 20004
BUSINESS PHONE: 2026247235


Comes up in many of the SEC documents filed here.

The company was started in Utah in 1983:

1. Description of Business and Basis of Presentation

Cybernet Internet Services International, Inc. ("Cybernet Inc") (formerly known
as New Century Technologies Corporation) was incorporated under the laws of the
State of Utah on September 27, 1983. Cybernet Inc changed its state of
incorporation to Delaware in November 1998. Effective September 16, 1997 the
Company acquired Cybernet Internet Dienstleistungen AG ("Cybernet AG"), a German
stock corporation which offers a variety of Internet related telecommunication
and systems integration services to corporate customers. Cybernet AG was founded
in December 1995, and commenced significant operations in 1996.

details: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1070658/00009283 ...

From search on the Michigan Corporation Site:

Entity Name ID Number Type
CYBERNET GROUP INTERNATIONAL, INC.
643414 Corporation
THE CYBERNET GROUP
515281 Assumed Name

*************************************************************

Searched for: CYBERNET GROUP INTERNATIONAL, INC.

ID Num: 643414

Entity Name: CYBERNET GROUP INTERNATIONAL, INC.

Type of Entity: Foreign Profit Corporation
Resident Agent: BARTON H WATSON III

Registered Office Address: 5069 MOUNTAIN RIDGE RD ADA MI 49301
Mailing Address: MI

Formed Under Act Number(s):

Incorporation/Qualification Date: 9-13-2001

Jurisdiction of Origin: DELAWARE

Number of Shares: 100,100

Year of Most Recent Annual Report: 03

Year of Most Recent Annual Report With Officers & Directors:

Status: ACTIVE Date: Present

**************************************************


Searched for: THE CYBERNET GROUP

ID Num: 515281
Assumed Names

Entity Name: CYBERCO HOLDINGS, INC.

Type of Entity: Domestic Profit Corporation
Resident Agent: DAVID ROEPKE

Registered Office Address: 25 S DIVISION AVE GRAND RAPIDS MI 49503
Mailing Address:

Formed Under Act Number(s): 284-1972

Incorporation/Qualification Date: 1-21-1992

Jurisdiction of Origin: MICHIGAN

Number of Shares: 60,000

Year of Most Recent Annual Report: 04

Year of Most Recent Annual Report With Officers & Directors: 04

Status: ACTIVE Date: Present

*****************************************************

Here is a bit on how "New Century Technologies Corporation" became CyberNET-- namely, while still in Utah, they acquired the German company named CyberNET. So, although it is listed legally as a foreign profit corporation in the Michigan State records, it obtained this status through acquisition and merger in 1997:

News Release
Thursday 17 April 1997, 16:57 GMT Thursday 17 April 1997
BUSINESS
New Century Technologies


NEW CENTURY TECHNOLOGIES SIGNS LETTER OF INTENT FOR THE ACQUISITION OF CYBERNET AG


Salt Lake City, Utah, April 17 - New Century Technologies Corp. ("The Company") is pleased to announce that it has signed a letter of intent for the acquisition of 100% of the issued and outstanding stock of CYBERNET AG, a private German corporation ("CYBERNET") which is a leading business Internet provider headquartered in Munich, Germany.


http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=18778

**************************************************************


Note that the FBI raided Cybernet Group in Grand Rapids. Why do you connect this with Barton Watson who is in Mountain Ridge? I'm not denying a connection -- just asking where you find it....

Never mind. I answered my own question: http://fox17.trb.com/news/111804-wxmi-cybernet,0,956334...


But, here is the really great thing. These companies are in fact the same, I'm pretty sure!

And things are falling apart fast. The lender to the parent Corp. of the Cybernetics Group, Cyberco (we need to check them out also) has filed a lawsuit:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-...

And Cyberco is suing The Cybernetics Group:

http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2591580&nav=0R...
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spoogly Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #128
130. From the original story
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #130
131. Thanks
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 11:58 AM by BlueDog2u
Good point. B-)

See my additions to the above post at the bottom for further updates and, I hope clarification.
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #128
132. Cyberco
Is said to be the "parent company" of Cybernetic Group

http://www.cyberco.net/
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
137. 'WANNA SEE SOMETHING SCARY'
OK the disclaimer -- because this is the Conspiracy theories of ALL Conspiracy Theories -- PLEASE DON'T GO PASSING THIS AROUND as fact.

I was reading through this thread and something someone said struck me -- so I went a'lookin on the internet(s).

Using all the information gleaned from just reading this thread and some quick internet checks(sorry, I'm not going to source anything because1) this is speculation and 2) I'm a lazy researcher --
Here's the scenario I have come up with --



1) We know something went wrong in the elections November 2nd and it has nothing to do with moral values.

2) We also know that in the last four years this country has invaded two countries that did not attack us

So look what's that mean -- Under Bush... the U.S. will have authority over/control three 'democratic' elections -- One being the most powerful country in the world --


So the elections:

Two have already take place: U.S. and Afghanistan
The other will happen in January: Iraq

Now in Afghanistan they don't have much oil -- so it wouldn't really make sense as to why the US would have an interest in it -- with the exception that Unocal(a US based company) had been trying to put an oil pipeline through Afghanistan -- well it wasn't exactly working out(aww!) -- But then September 11th came ... Osama Bin Laden so on so forth -- we were forced to attack the evildoers... Afghanistan was toast -- the US inserted the exiled King who by the way was elected in September and that pipeline is now going full steam ahead -- now, what country is this pipeline coming from -- A little known former piece of Russia called Turkmenistan which is rich in oil...

And who are the companies trying to run this pipeline? Unocal and Delta Oil(a company with Saudi interest) -- now ahem, who provides services and products to these two companies -- a little known company called Halliburton.

So also in this thread -- an article mentions Accenture -- a company that provides voting solution services to countries all over the world including the US... and more specifically Florida -- Oh... and it's an interesting tid bit to see that for some odd reason the Saudi's invested in this company... hmmm, now why would they be interested in an accounting firm?

My challenge when you're not working with the problem at hand, which is proving voting fraud in our own election is to find out what hand Accenture/Halliburton played in the Afghanistan elections and the upcoming Iraq Elections?

If I am to believe my own ramblings... I would have to ask myself some tough questions...

September 11th -- almost all the hijacker's were Saudi, why?
Osama Bin Laden why can't they catch a 6'5" Arab with kidney failure?
What's the rush with the Iraq elections -- why must they take place in January --they're going to happen no matter what?

Why is Iran... a country that separates Afghanistan and Iraq trying to feverishly enrich uranium so they might build a nuclear weapon... are they evildoers or do they see something coming that we don't see?

Lastly...
Are Bush and the Saudi's trying to corner the world's oil market?


No matter what happens -- or what is true -- we have to stop this now, I think it's that important.












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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. Woo
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 01:08 PM by BlueDog2u
I think you've got the big picture pretty well covered in your post. The involvement of these companies in international elections technology is a shocking development for me.

Lastly...
Are Bush and the Saudi's trying to corner the world's oil market?

Of course. And even before I learned about the possible insider trading scam involvement in 9-11 --see the thread in editorials for details - I wondered why in the hell Bush pushed so hard to go after Iraq and ignored the Saudia Arabia connection which was so obvious and let Bin Ladin live to taunt the US before our elections...o, I guess that helped Bush, didn't it? Turns out, of course, that both the Saudis and the Pakistan intelligence services, which collaborated in the murder of Daniel Pearl before deciding to execute his killers for knowing too much, were into 9-11 up to their eyeballs. And Michael Moore has proven that Bush's family ties to the Bin Ladin's in particular go way back, so we are seeing a kind of multinational consolidation of dynastic thuggery on several continents.

what hand Accenture/Halliburton played in the Afghanistan elections and the upcoming Iraq Elections?

Good question for investigation.
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #138
156. don't forget the poppies
Afghanistan may not have a lot of oil, but it has most of the world's opium poppies. It's the number one producer, actually.

BFEE, way a long long time ago made lots of money in the opium trade, as did many of the 19th century robber barons. I happen to think that the connection to poppies continue to this day, if only through shell corporations. Or to keep the masses narcotized.

Why do you think Bush the father is called "Poppy," anyway?

(it's a pet theory of mine, but I can supply lots of fuel for the fire if anyone's interested)

Polishing my tinfoil hat gleefully tonight...
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #137
142. Bush family connections RIGGS BANK
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 01:36 PM by seemslikeadream
Bank with close ties to Bush administration engulfed in scandal
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

WaPo: Allbritton Loses Riggs Bank (front page, day 3)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

9/11 relatives sue bank in terror attacks - Riggs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Riggs-PNC deal under strainSpanish judge recommends charges against Riggs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Bush family connections
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Riggs Probe Finds Evidence Of Crimes
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

WaPo: Criminal Probe of Riggs Bank Underway
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Bank Investigated for Pinochet's Fraud
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Dictator sues British 'coup plotters'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #142
148. Wow.....This is a good find, and worth looking into further!- nt
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #142
150. Way to tie that in sld. Bush's Uncle Jonathan is chief officer at Riggs.
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 06:24 PM by Carl Brennan

This bank was also where Princess Haifa, wife of Bush crony Prince Bandar, sent checks to two of the 9/11 terrorists.


http://www.opednews.com/duncan_bush_should_cry_uncle_an...
........One of the other characters involved in this story was Omar al-Bayoumi, supposedly just a simple Saudi student studying in the US. The report has some interesting things to say about this simple student though,

"Despite the fact that he was a student, al-Bayoumi had access to seemingly unlimited funding from Saudi Arabia. For example, an FBI source identified al-Bayoumi as the person who delivered $400,000 from Saudi Arabia for the Kurdish mosque in San Diego. One of the FBI's best sources in San Diego informed the FBI that he thought that al-Bayoumi must be an intelligence officer for Saudi Arabia or another foreign power."


Turns out that some of the money al-Bayoumi received was from Princess Haifa Al-Faisal, wife of the Saudi Ambassador Bandar Bin Sultan, and daughter of the late King Faisal. The money then ended up in the hands of Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi for monthly living expenses while they rented rooms in the home of the FBI informant.

The checks from Princess Haifa were drawn on Riggs Bank in Washington D.C. One of the chief officers of Riggs Bank is Jonathan Bush, an uncle of President George W. Bush...........



So it appears to me, that the redaction of the Saudi information from the 9-11 Report had more to do with covering the President's own ass from the embarrassing fact that his own uncle was part of the Saudi money trail that enabled two of the hijackers to crash a plane into the Pentagon, and very little to do with jeopardizing our national security at all.

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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #150
155. Where the h*ll is Michael Moore
when you need him???
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #142
152. What does Riggs Bank
Have to do with the rest of this thread?
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #152
159. I'd say sld was trying to
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 08:51 PM by Carl Brennan
ad another element to assist Woo's subthread.
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #159
165. I'm still lost...
Look at me as a newbie.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #165
175. Woo mentioned Bin Laden and 9/11
Edited on Mon Nov-22-04 02:30 AM by Carl Brennan
...Now in Afghanistan they don't have much oil -- so it wouldn't really make sense as to why the US would have an interest in it -- with the exception that Unocal(a US based company) had been trying to put an oil pipeline through Afghanistan -- well it wasn't exactly working out(aww!) -- But then September 11th came ... Osama Bin Laden so on so forth -- we were forced to attack the evildoers... Afghanistan was toast -- the US inserted the exiled King who by the way was elected in September and that pipeline is now going full steam ahead -- now, what country is this pipeline coming from -- A little known former piece of Russia called Turkmenistan which is rich in oil...

The Riggs Bank link to both Bushies and terrorists via Bandar and wife makes the suspicions that many have, including myself, stronger that 9/11 was just too damn coincidental and solved alot of Bush's imperial aspirations. 9/11 was the "Perle Harbor" like attack that the PNAC whackos said would be needed to justify all the shit Bush wanted to do. I would argue that 9/11 HAD to happen for Bush to survive politically. Bush had to use terror and war because he has nothing else.

I think 9/11 is an inside job and that the organizations used to make this happen includes banks--laundered money, charities, flight schools in Florida, etc. Another aspect that brings the Saudis into it is that they and the Bushies depend on oil being the energy resource of the future. That will be much easier to accomplish if they control the supply as much as possible. But Iraq is a disaster.


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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #137
143. This came up on google
KHOU.com | News for Houston, Texas | Nation/World
... president of Reston, Va.-based Accenture eDemocracy Services ... Trained elections officials
would maintain software and ... for mail in remote Afghanistan or Arctic ...
www.khou.com/sharedcontent/nationworld/ washingtonprint/012304cccawashnetvote.453dcada.html - 39k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages


But, curiously, once you access the article, it doesn't mention Accenture or Afghanistan, but details plans for internet voting schemes for the military without any mention of Accenture. I tried to access the source but could not.


It is a Nov. 21 article from Houston which quotes Michael Alverez from Caltech, who is gungho about internet voting:

"The odds of this flopping are very remote," said Michael Alvarez, co-director of the CalTech-MIT/Voting Technology Project and principal investigator of the Defense Department's contract to produce SERVE.

"SERVE has gone really far to making an amazingly sophisticated and secure architecture the most sophisticated system I've seen," Alvarez said.

But critics say the system fails in its overarching reliance on the Internet, which they contend exposes elections to hackers, cyberterrorists, power outages, downed telephone lines, computer viruses and software bugs.


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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #137
151. Just an aside from the main conversation, the lessons Iran and
other nations appear to have taken from the US's actions are that foreign invasions appear less likely if a nation can defend itself with nuclear weapons. North Korea has a strong military and suspected nuclear capability. Other nations observe that consequently it appears less likely to be a target for invasion.

Not that nations would not otherwise seek nuclear weapons, but it could be argued that US agression might in effect further encourage such efforts.

As for the oil, I figured the Bush Administration thought it could have a friendly gov't in place in Iraq and then have favored access if not indeed control of another major source of oil, thus having some measure of leverage against the Saudis. As well as perhaps other nations relying on oil imports, especially those in the region who got their oil from Iraq.
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simply_the_best Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
139. Piffle and Tosh
Utter nonsense. Thom Hartman has distanced himself from Fisher and Nader's man Zeese denies any colaboration.
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. Thank you for the blast
Now go back in your cave.
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Tuddie Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
144. Jeff's email re 1st Amendment Rights sent Sunday 11.21.04
Mrs. Gettysburg II received an email from Jeff Fisher Sunday, Nov 21. See my post (Tuddie) under this DU thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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s-cubed Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
154. Hard copies of stuff
I hope you are getting hard copies of all this stuff: links disappear too often.
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symphony Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
158. kick n/t
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
160. I'm putting this up here for the record: Bush and Cybernet News Service.
I don't know what to make of this. I haven't followed it any further than this article.

Bush and Cybernet Google link:
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Xz3RPLTEWvAJ:liber...

In a series of articles originating at the Bush-friendly Media Research Center and its news reporting subdivision, Cybernet News Service or CNSNews.com, senior staff writer Jeff Johnson has exposed yet another dimension of TSA tyranny. In his article, Thousands of Pilots Wont Fly Armed Armed, Blame TSA, Johnson offers in his January 15th piece, The federal agency charged with providing security for U.S. airlines, and the airlines themselves are intentionally sabotaging the congressionally-mandated program to train and certify pilots who volunteer to carry guns in the cockpit, according to supporters of the program who claim tens of thousands of pilots have opted out as a result.
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EndElectoral Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #160
163. Why has Piotr Blass not been interviewed?
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #163
166. Good question.
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #163
167. Maybe no one has his phone number?
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Roger_Otip Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #160
164. it's a type - should read cybercast news service
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #160
173. CNSNEWS.COM
is owned by Media Research Center, Alexandria VA. The site's meta description is: "As the world's first full-time, original internet news operation, the Cybercast News Service reports news and information on the days issues." I don't see why CNSNEWS should have anything to do with Fisher's allegations just because it too, like many other corporations, has the word "Cyber" in its name.

I'm totally on board with the connection between Blass and Klock, but I've seen no convincing connection between them and anything "Cyber". Who made the original connection to a company named Cyber-something and how was it made?
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EndElectoral Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
161. Why has Piotr Blass not been interviewed on this?
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #161
168. Do You want the job?
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raipoli Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #161
229. I interviewed Mr. Blass last week
Last week I interviewed Mr. Blass for about an hour. He is originally from Poland, and he just filed to run for Governor of Florida in the next election. He ran for Florida Congress in the Nov 2 election and got 7000 votes as a write in candidate. He says that the Fla results are erroneous but his proof is that he got 7000 votes but the Fla Election results only showing write in votes in the hundreds. He says that his son has nothing at all to do with hacking or the election. His son is 15 years old, and was 11 years only during the 2000 election. Supposedly, his son was committed for calling up Jeb Bush's office and threatening to put Jeb in jail. Blass says that Jeff Fisher is not credible and that there is nothing at all to the story about kids a Bay Point hacking into election computers -- in fact, he said that the computer set up at Bay Point is unsophisticated. He makes a valid point by noting that no President would risk exposure by having a bunch of emotionally disturbed juvenile kids do his dirty work. Blass believes that Fisher is only trying to raise his profile and additional funds for his operation. He calls him a "con man." Blass comes off as very credible, honest, and open. He does not appear to be hiding or deflecting. He seems to be an idealist. raipoli
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EndElectoral Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
162. Why has Dr. Piotr Blass not been interviewed?
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #162
169. Maybe you could find the number?
You might try post #153
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lilpnut Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
170. Article from GRFP...FINANCIAL FRAUD NOT ELECTORAL FRAUD!!!!!!!!!
GRAND RAPIDS -- A day after the seizure of equipment and records from a high-tech company, a lender accused Cyberco Holdings Inc. of fraud in a lawsuit involving a $3 million deal to acquire dozens of computer servers.

Kent County Circuit Judge Dennis Leiber signed an order allowing a Cyberco creditor to study the company's books and hunt around the downtown headquarters for servers and other assets.

Charter One Vendor Finance said it has a financial agreement that allowed Cyberco to acquire 66 servers. But Charter One could find only 25 during a Sept. 29 visit to offices in the Heartside neighborhood, according to a civil suit filed Thursday.

"It is without question that Cyberco is ... perpetrating a scheme to defraud Charter One and likely other creditors," the Illinois-based lender said.

Cyberco does business as CyberNET Engineering and CyberNET Group. It sells high-tech services, including data storage and computer security.
Separately, on Wednesday, federal agents armed with a search warrant swarmed the offices at 25 S. Division Ave. and seized records as part of a fraud investigation. The Ada home of Cyberco executives Barton Watson and wife Krista Kotlarz-Watson also was searched.

Barton Watson, 44, has a rocky past. In Washington, D.C., he was accused of fleecing investors out of $230,000. He agreed to a plea deal in 1987 and was sentenced to one year to three years in federal prison.

"I have a lot of regret over what happened," Watson told a judge at the time, "not just because I stole a great deal of money from a number of people but particularly in that I abused their trust and friendship."

In 1994, Watson admitted using a phony tax return to get an $80,000 bank loan to buy a yacht two years earlier. He was sued by the government and agreed to pay a $5,000 fine.

In its lawsuit, Charter One accuses Watson of the "same pattern of behavior" in the deal to acquire computer servers
A server is a piece of high-tech hardware, acting as the data center for a network of computers. Charter One wanted to confirm that Cyberco actually had the 66 servers because they were collateral for the $3 million financing.

Charter One claims Cyberco used phony financial statements and tax returns when it sought financing for the equipment.

In an affidavit attached to the lawsuit, Grand Rapids-area accountant Guy Hiestand said his signature was forged on a letter about the company's finances for 2002 and 2003. He said he didn't work on the audit.

A check of state records also showed Cyberco has pledged more than 100 servers as collateral to more than one lender, based on a check of serial numbers, Charter One attorneys said.

The Watsons could not be reached for comment. Cyberco's Boston-based attorney, John Harding, was informed before the suit was was filed.

On Nov. 1, Charter One sent three high-tech consultants to Cyberco offices for an inspection that lasted just 40 minutes.
"The data center was ... a sloppy, disorganized, high-risk environment," Linda Connor, of Technology Professionals Corp., said in an affidavit.

In an interview, Barton Watson's former executive assistant said working for him was chaotic.

Elaine VanSuilichem said she watched as Watson dodged bill collectors and used a deck of credit cards to take lavish vacations, buy handmade clothes and order his favorite sausages from New York.

"I don't know how he stayed afloat," she said. "I would have to call people and say the check will be sent out tomorrow or we're not paying because there was something he didn't like about the service. He never paid anything."


Press writer Barton Deiters contributed to this report.
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pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #170
171. Um, so?
What was the very first file charged in the watergate case?
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Alizaryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
172. Cybernet
I am posting this link to a similar discussion on the Black Box site.
There are few different Cybernets. Not sure what is what but it seems real important to make sure we have the basic facts right.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.c...

(reply 91)
CyberNet Ventures, Inc http://www.adultcheck.com / is a large porn site company in Los Angeles, CA
CyberNet Systems Corp. http://www.cybernet.com / is a mid-sized defense contractor in Ann Arbor, MI
Cybernet Software Systems http://www.cybernetsoft.com / is a mid-sized software development company in San Jose, CA
Cybernet Research http://www.cybernet.net.uk is/was a British ISP
CyberNET Group http://www.cybernet-usa.com / owner of CyberNetCo (the raided company), an ISP in Grand Rapids, MI Run by an ex-con named Barton Watson, the famous raid concerns a US$33 million bank loan Watson allegedly obtained through fraud.

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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #172
174. Apparently the CyberNet raid was for bank and wire mail fraud
CyberNet Group Offices Raided
November 19, 2004 -- (WEB HOST INDUSTRY REVIEW) -- According to reports, the offices of Web hosting provider The CyberNet Group (cybernet-usa.com) were raided this past Wednesday by agents of five different federal agencies, including the FBI and IRS.

The raid took place at The CyberNet Groups offices located at 25 South Division Avenue in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Federal agents reportedly seized computers and other equipment and were back on the premises Thursday.

The reason for the raid is unclear. However, sources say the investigation involves wire mail fraud and bank fraud.

According to one report, a lawsuit against The CyberNet Group was filed in Kent County Court on Thursday, charging the company with fraud and breach of contract. The suit alleges that The CyberNet Groups founder and chairman Barton Watson and chief operating officer James Horton are operating a fake company, based in Delaware, to funnel money.

According to another report, Watson was convicted of fraud in the early 1980s. The company also previously made an out of court settlement with Hastings Public Schools after a former employee blew the whistle on improper computer sales The CyberNet Group made to Hastings Public Schools.

Lawyers for Watson and Horton have declined comment.

Employees of The CyberNet Group, sent home on Wednesday, were reportedly back at work on Friday morning.


******************

Do you think they were running money through the Bay Point School?
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EndElectoral Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #172
180. Can somebody explain this CLEARLY?
CyberNET GRoup was the one raided in Michigan. Ok.

CyberNEt Ventures is the porn group.

CyberNet Systems is the software development group.

NOW, WHICH ONE IS AFFILIATED WITH THE SEMBLER GROUP - THE STRAIGHTS, OR DRUG FREE AMERICA?

AND WHICH ONE IS being alleged by Fisher in the hacking allegation?

Are there any connections between any of these? I am getting more confused.

Jesus, what a way to set up a mess. Just put CyberNet in the name and you're home free!
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
176. PLEASE SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN - FALSE FACTS
CyberNET Group IS NOT Cybernet Systems Corporation. It IS NOT Cybernet Ventures.

Auditors at BBV started this crap with his post full of lies:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.c...

People keep spreading it, either intentionally or unintentionally.

Choicepoint has nothing to do with CyberNET Group.

This whole thing is like a worm.

John
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #176
177. Thanks for clearing that up.
Now that we know CyberNet Group is the company in question we can ignore the info about CyberNET and Cybernet Systems Corporation.

However, we can still place validity on the information about Accenture, etc., and that is valuable.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #176
179. Great idea if you want to shut down
Edited on Mon Nov-22-04 01:05 PM by Carl Brennan
the spirit of inquiry at DU. The purpose of these topics is to explore and refine our knowledge not just of the facts but of the process of investigating. You seem to have missed that in your brusque approach here and at other topics. This will chill people from looking into these matters if they are concerned about other members acting in such a heavy handed manner.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #179
181. Hey gang--look what the people at commongroundcommonsense have found
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #181
182. Thank you Carolab
:hi:
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #181
183. Well I'll be damned
Edited on Tue Nov-23-04 11:34 PM by BlueDog2u
It just goes to show why internets are better than mononets.

I'll have to take some time to digest it, but it looks pretty exciting...appears to include a direct link between Diebold and Stryon, aka Cybernet Group.

On the other hand, reading through all those posts reminds me of why I prefer a discussion board in which the course of the investigation is not directed by someone who screams "aha! What have we here, Watson?" every time he finds a url which has two of his search words in it. :silly:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #183
184. and this from j2inMiNov
j2inMiNov 19 2004, 11:01 PM
Heres some more information on the CyberNet Group from a local perspective. This borders on tin foil hat thinking, but its relevant to keep in the back of your mind. Please read down a few paragraphs, I have inserted some notes into the article.

http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2...03&nav=0Rc...
Employees return to work at The CyberNET Group after federal raid

24 Hour News 8 has uncovered some more information about a raid involving five agencies at The CyberNET Group building on South Division Avenue in Grand Rapids Wednesday morning.

The federal agents brought in truckloads of equipment and seized all electronic data including computers and financial information connected to the company.

The CyberNET Group hosts Internet Web sites for companies and holds electronic data for them. The company is based in Grand Rapids with 120 employees, and about 1,000 worldwide in Chicago, Las Vegas, the United Kingdom, Philippines, Australia, Hong Kong and China.

Some of the companies clients include DeVos Place and the Van Andel Arena, whose Web sites were down Wednesday during the raid .
(pause article)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to stop right there and point out a couple of things you may or may not know about the two names DeVos and VanAndel. These names are the founders of the Amway corporation and have considerable influence on the city of Grand Rapids. They are in the top 300 richest people on the planet, I think.

Whats even more important here is Betsy DeVos is the chair of the Michigan GOP, and she is actually stepping down - very likely to run against Dem Governor Jennifer Granholm in 2006 or Dem Senator Debbie Stabenow. If I may say so, she is a nasty ruthless bitch sure to make any GOP member proud.

Moreover, Mama Betty Van Andel was a philanthropist, but very active in GOP politics AND promoting a Christian Right Agenda. She died early this year. They actually funded the Van Andel Creation Research Center and several cultural, research, and evangelical Christian Organizations. They own most of downtown Grand Rapids, especially most of the cultural, museums, and convention centers. They are very likely CyberNets biggest customers and could easily get this sleazeball company involved in a scandal like this. I have no doubt. (Note, they had the money to purchase another failing company a few days ago.)

Now keep on your Tin Foil Hat - there's your tie in to the GOP from another angle.
You have lots of money, motive, and scandal. The irony of this is a Christian GOP organization somehow funding the theft of Americas votes. I still cannot believe this could happen.

Read on if you wish.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #184
188. Former Federal Auditor Turned Whistleblower and FBI Witness Speaks
Edited on Tue Nov-23-04 11:38 PM by seemslikeadream
According to www.merchantsofdeception.com, these political ties, involving huge political contributions and large speaking fees for prominent Republican leaders (including former Presidents), have resulted in a massive $280 million tax break for the Amway Corporation, the largest multi-level marketing company (MLM), as well as immunity for Amway and companies of this type from investigations of possible violations of anti-pyramid scheme statutes. The "business" has brought in well in excess of $20 billion to date.

www.merchantsofdeception.com is published by Eric Scheibeler, a former federal auditor and later a ranking Amway insider who turned whistleblower and FBI witness. Scheibeler was instrumental in providing key documentation to "Dateline NBC" in its May 7, 2004, hidden camera expos of Amway/Quixtar's "secret" pyramid business run by Amway/Quixtar "kingpins." "Dateline NBC" reported that the FBI and the IRS are conducting investigations based partly on information disclosed in the report.

A life-long conservative, Scheibeler details GOP donations and corporate promotion that have allegedly resulted in political protection and benefits for the MLM industry. An audiotape of former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich promoting Amway at a large Amway meeting is included on the site. The site details public speaking fees to Gingrich in the $50,000 range. Gingrich arranged a reported last-minute modification in a comprehensive tax bill that allegedly provided a $283 million tax break to just one company -- Amway. Also on the site are audio clips of then Texas governor George W. Bush and one sent by high-level kingpin distributors from a private meeting within the White House.

"The GOP seems to have been hijacked by political payoffs from an industry that is rife with consumer deception, and bogus 'business opportunity' selling," Scheibeler stated. "Whether you are a Democrat or Republican, we can agree it is time this secret influence peddling and the harm it causes consumers and our democracy are revealed. I was on the inside. I saw it with my own eyes. I also have the documents, financials, and the audio and video tapes to prove it."

The site also calls to task the Federal Trade Commission -- currently chaired by Bush administration appointee Timothy Muris, whose law firm represented Amway -- for its alleged failure to investigate or prosecute pyramid sales schemes, despite multiple well-documented complaints.

http://www.onlypunjab.com/fullstory1004-insight-Former+...


Multimillionaires funding expensive pro-Bush 527 ads
By Geoff Earle

A billionaire, a professional sports magnate, a Texas oilman and the founders of Amway are funding the most expensive ad buy of the presidential campaign.

The $14 million ad, which began airing in key markets this month, shows President Bush hugging a teenage girl whose mother died in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. The ad was paid for by the Progress for America Voter Fund, a 527 group that has run TV ads for Bush and against Sen. John Kerry.
more
http://www.thehill.com/news/102704/multimillionaires.as...
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harmonyguy Donating Member (589 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #183
185. Here we go again.....
You will find a number of posts, almost word-for word what was posted and brought about the heated debate/dissention/threadlocking at BBV. Draw your own conclusions, of course, but I believe that it's really the same 'stuff', in many cases, I suspect, by the same person.

No foul intended on anyone - just one guy's opinion.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #181
186. Activisms is Auditors, even a sponge can figure that out
Same crap, but it looks like people there are still chasing the geese.

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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #186
187. What is your PROBLEM?
We are trying to research something. Is that okay with you?
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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #186
189. or that he means well but he has a problem of jumping to conclusions
It actually took that posting to see what was happening with him. You can tell he means well, but he doesn't take a step back from reality. That is also why I took a step back to re-think things as well. Some of the stuff he has found did help at first, but he started to assume to much. When I posted here at Democratic Underground it was because I was getting to the point were parts of me don't trust him.

I still won't assume that Auditors is Activisms, but I do believe Activisms is part of why Jeff Fisher believes what he has. I'm not going to assume anything and I won't start name calling. I think the only problem Activisms has is he allowed his passion to blind his logic. It is the same reason Bozos for Bush not to get angry or outage at anyone here who has been looking into it.

Most of us all need to step away and take a break. Because I've been researching a lot of stuff as well I even found myself looking into it because the links are easy to make. It isn't people trying to mislead it is just people overworking themselves trying to figure out what is true and what isn't. We are all on the edge and we are all trying to do our little parts to help.
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #189
191. Hang in there, Indie
Take all the breaks you need and, yes, take Activisms with a grain of salt. Or two...or three...or...you get my point.
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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #191
216. I'm not going to trust Activisms on stuff.
without checking that out myself. I learned the hard way on that. It's the same for anyone here I know we have to be careful of everything. The only thing is before completely assuming I rather question Actvisms peaceful about it. I seriously don't believe anyone of us meant to mislead. I just think no matter what we are all receiving so much information it is easy for anyone of us to have it happen. I'm trying to remember which person here said it best about us all being under stress. It's the same as being on the edge. If it was reversed and the same thing happen to you or anyone else. I would at least give them the benefit of the debt and listen to their side. I just don't think blame can be there cause it could have been anyone of us.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #216
218. Please click on this link
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Scroll down one "click" and look at the diagram that a friend of mine made recently.

We have since updated it, at another website, with even more dirt.

I believe you might simply be a misguided or gullible young man, who somehow became online friends with the wrong person. Although you have clearly posted a lot of bad info, I discovered tonight that you have also posted warnings a few times about "the research."

As I mentioned in the post at the bottom of this thread, perhaps you need someone to teach you how to research properly.

In the meantime, feel free to dig for some good dirt on various people and organizations in the "roadmap from hell" that I have provided a link to.

The sooner we can prove that all these people and companies are working together to take over this country, the sooner we can, hopefully, turn things around.

I will revoke my PM to Skinner, and give you a chance to shine here at DU.

John
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #189
192. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #192
193. and what you don't know is I've been talking to George as well
You assume to much about people. That is one of the problems right now. We've all been on edge. You just said a little while ago Activisms is Auditors. Also remember I've already said many times that I've been posting at commongroundscommonsense. I've even told what I post under. But again you are still assuming.

You forget with passion comes the ability to be pulled in by information. It is very easy to make mistakes. When you said Activisms was me you will notice that I have already asked a question there if Activisms is Auditors. I've admitted many times already that I made a mistake in asking the question here. It wasn't to mislead but to ask a honest question. The problem is you are doing right now what you are warning us not to do with CyberNet Group. You are making a connection without knowing facts just because you believe something. You've allowed your own fear to turn into rage and leash out at anyone. In other words you've become your own Auditors on this forum.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #193
194. You're Jason, not Activisms
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 12:08 AM by Bozos for Bush
You can't spin your way out of this.


Full Version: Activisms have fun
Common Ground Common Sense > Issues that Affect Our Lives > Civil Rights > Fair Election Practices
Pages: 1, 2, 3
JasonATexan Nov 18 2004, 08:46 PM
All the forum members are going to hate me for this, but have fun. I'm sure it will keep you entertained. Look even Russia pops up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...dress=203x...


inquiringmind Nov 18 2004, 08:54 PM
And check out this:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcfo...m=DCForumI...


Activisms Nov 18 2004, 08:54 PM
Wow, thats really something Jason. You should post it at BBV's boards, where I had some friends compiling this.


And so it began at another site - Jason and Activisms, misleading folks all over the place, just like Auditors at BBV.

You've been busted: http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/lofiversion/inde...

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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #194
195. Again you are acting like I am denying who I am
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 12:16 AM by AnIndependentTexan
First I am JasonATexan. I believe I mentioned that in another post. I believe I also mention that I was taking a break from over there. I've never lied about who I am. I've even told Skinner if he needs proof of who I am he is more then welcome to the proof. You're over reacting about everything.

I've also been talking to George in email because I was willing to listen to what ever advise he has. I'm also willing to listen to what he needs my help in. I've even told you that I'm willing to be friends and listen to your view point, but you seem to not want to be friends. I've learned from being here that you can not assume anything. You can only ask people advise and sometimes you need to take a break every now and then. I ask you are you willing to take a break and for one respect other people or are you only here to leash out at others. I'm willing to listen but you have to make a effort to listen as well.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #195
197. Here's an example of the game you have been playing
JasonATexanNov 20 2004, 04:12 PM
Jeb Bush's link to one of Cybernet's affiliates Choicpoint

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:mk1BGFo...d&hl=en&st...
And of course on top of all this, ChoicePoint government who controls voting name rosters, being issued by Jeb Bush to directly not only take off the felon purge lists, but keep them as well. Authorities issued repeated orders for him to turn it off and instead he saved all the names to some hard drive and area around there in order to use them all again later.


Bay Point Schools, Cal Tech, and the CyberNET connection."
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcfo...m=DCForumI...
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #195
198. Here's another example
Your buddy Activisms

ActivismsNov 20 2004, 05:42 PM
Hah!!!! No more hiding for these crooks!!!!


PROOF CYBERNET SOFTWARE INC, AND ALL CYBERNET INTERNET SERVICES ARE ALL IN THE SAME COMPANY

http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?ac...4&owner=in...


Would you look at that, every last one of those are tied into CyberNET international systems.....

And neither company show up as Corporation divisions.....The numbers don't exist it says
http://www.cis.state.mi.us/bcs_corp/sr_corp.asp

Just put in both numbers 0001110828 and 0001070658

Neither one shows up....They don't exist as corporations...
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #198
207. Bozos
As Indie Texan says below, you are mirroring activisms. He asserts, you accuse and deny. Neither one of you is doing much good communicating with the rest of us. Please explain to us exactly what is deceptive about this post. Thanks for the clarification.

bd2u
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #207
208. well for starters
They brought another Cybernet-named company into the mix.

Secondly, their links don't prove anything - here, try this one for example - http://www.cis.state.mi.us/bcs_corp/sr_corp.asp

Follow their instructions.

BTW this crap has already been debunked over and over at BBV.

Did you go there and look?

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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #208
209. Well it is kind of hard when you never go to BBV to know what has or has
not been debunk. It isn't like we all know about everything. We are just learning the same way others learn. You are acting like nobody should question anything because they might make a mistake. We are only human all of us. I get all of my information from Democratic Underground and the commonsense forum. I'm not a expert, but at least I'm willing to learn and respect others.
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #209
220. Wow
Bozos, for someone who gets up in arms over disinformation, you seem to have a pretty short memory and a fast and loose keyboard. Remember me? Yes, that's right, I'm the person who posted Cowboy's debunking of Auditor to these boards only yesterday. And today you are accusing me of not knowing what transpired on BBV? Puleeze. Take some tranquilizers.

Tried your experiment and I got the same results as indicated in the post you "debunked." Neither one of those numbers comes up on the Michigan website. What does that mean? Unlike Activisms I make no pretense to knowing. I don't even know what those numbers are supposed to represent. But since you are the one doing the "debunking" here, let's just say you aren't doing a very good job. At this point you've basically called attention to something that apparently even Activisms got right, or partially right. Also I notice that you are still calling to "shut down" threads because you claim that people are mistaken about this, that, or the other thing. You really ought to chill out, dude.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #220
221. LOL here we go again
You put in both numbers, neither came back with anything, and you can't figure out what that means?

Sorry dude, I can't help you.

And as far as remembering who posted what regarding Cowboy, perhaps I'm too busy trying to put a stop to all this false information at three websites, plus continuing real research, plus I do eat and sleep perhaps two hours, etc.

And btw posting that someone else debunked something is not nearly the same as debunking it yourself. So stand up like a man, and debunk this stuff - then I'll remember who you are, and what you post.

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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #221
222. You have a closed mind
And you are a terrible communicator.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #195
200. Here's another example of your deception
JasonATexanNov 20 2004, 06:43 PM
What can we learn from this learn of partners for

Cybernet Systems Corporation
727 Airport Blvd.
Ann Arbor, MI 48108-1639 USA

http://www.cybernet.com/partners/index.html

Sparton Electronics

Jerry Fain Models, Inc.

Immersion Corporation

Tesseraction Games

International Business Machines

Ford Motor Company

The Boeing Company

Ampex Data Systems
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #195
201. As fate would have it. I'm here too.
We are all quite sincere. And we are on the edge of something really big.
Has anyone spoken to Blass besides me?

Wiley
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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #201
206. I believe we all are a passionated group
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 12:56 AM by AnIndependentTexan
The problem is our own passion can lead us to make mistakes. Let's take Dan Rathers. We might have helped him make that mistake without knowing it. Yet he made a mistake and we all believed in what Dan Rathers said. Most of us here at Democratic Underground were trying to prove he was right. Does that mean Dan Rathers was leading us onto a wild goose chase?

No, it just means he felt strongly about something. It also means his passion lead him into believing what he wanted to. That is the dangerous thing about being passionate. One thing about learning that separates passion is I am also willing to step aside. One thing that separates me from what Bozos for Bush is doing is I'm more then willing to stop and re-think things. If I make a mistake I'll admit it and I'll be humble enough to ask for advise. I'm also the type of person to leave things alone.

If you think I should leave then let me know. If all DU'ers feel I should leave Democratic Underground then let me know. I will personally stop coming here and I will personally stop posting if the members here feel I am a problem.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #206
210. There's nothing to stop and think about here
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 01:16 AM by Bozos for Bush
You and your buddies have been misleading people on at least three websites.

The title of your thread at Common Ground Common Sense, "Activisms have Fun" blew it for you. Of course you knew that Activisms was Auditors, and you opened the door for him to immediately jump in and start the same wild goosechase, with you pitching in your share of deceptive and downright false information.

So, how many other sites do you guys "have fun" at?

I've written to Skinner. I've provided him all the evidence. You had a lot of fun while it lasted, and I imagine you're still having fun at other places. Most telling of everything you have written is your comment "but I do believe Activisms is part of why Jeff Fisher believes what he has."

And perhaps you're absolutely right for a change.

Once again, none of your deceptions takes away from the fact that Accenture is a bad company, and was probably involved in the election theft that occurred three weeks ago. Bev knows her stuff, and Accenture has the links to back up her beliefs.

However, you guys intentionally sent the entire story off into the wild blue yonder.

You've been busted.
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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #210
211. That is were you are wrong and why you are being a idiot
First it isn't a matter of busting anyone. I've always been honest about who I am. By saying you and your buddy's over there have been misleading everyone that is like a person saying just because we post something and then made a mistake on it we are then misleading to the world. By your own words you just declared to the whole Media that we should not be trusted here at Democratic Underground because one person makes a mistake. You've just declared everyone is part of a VAST conspiracy to mislead others. By allowing yourself to be controlled by fear you are falling for your own passion to protect people.

The passion to protect something from what you believe is wrong is what has caused you to leach out at others. You are assuming so much and you don't accept any other viewpoints. You've become your own worst nightmare. That is why I stepped back and took a break. That is why I'm also willing to re-think things. That is why I'm willing to let others lead in what they want to look at on things. I admit I made a mistake because I was trying to be rational, but even when being rational there were still problems. I'm willing to learn from my mistake, but you can't let yours go!
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #211
213. Hilarious BS
This ain't a 50/50 thing Indy.

For example, Bush deserted the Guard.
Swift Boat Liars claim Kerry blah blah blah

Hmmm, let's just not talk about this stuff anymore.

I am well aware of you thug's 50/50 strategy, which is used to deflect attention to something damaging, by trying to make other people believe that the accuser/opponent is equally guilty.

Sorry bozo, your Maytag broke down.
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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #213
214. I'm sorry but you have truly lost it
I've been willing and I tried to listen to your view point. At this point in time I will be ignoring you. You have shown that is the only logical step. I've never ignored anyone before.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #214
215. need to conduct further research
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 02:45 AM by Bozos for Bush
Time for bed.

Maybe you're just a seriously misguided kid.

Maybe you thought you became friends with Activisms/Auditors, and had no idea he was leading you in a deception. But then, why would you start a thread titled "Activisms have fun?"

And yet, you have on occasion warned others not to jump to conclusions.

But then again, you've posted a lot of bad info, posting it as if it was all true.

So, how old are you? Did you merely hook up with some bad eggs?

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FloridaCrat Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #189
223. Hey Tex, why don't you put your money where your opinion is?
Go for it and take your own advice about a break from not thinking about things. What exactly is your game?

ps stars next to your name has meaning outside of texas too
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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #223
225. actually anyone can donate
and there is no game. I took a break . I also have stopped talking about CyberNet Group. I'm more interested in finding a peaceful solution. The only reason I have not donated is cause I don't have a job. I also don't have a credit card. I also made a suggestion of putting up a forum so that we can keep them separate if it is misleading.

I'm actually willing to find a peaceful solution then telling people to close down threads. I've also been willing to work and take advise. I'm not perfect and I've already said I might have made a mistake. The reason why I'm choosing to ignore is because it is easier. I understood George's point of view how it could mislead, but Bozos for Bush has not offered a peaceful solution. The only solution Bozos for Bush has offered is shut down every thread and label everyone freepers or part of a conspiracy. I personally believe there is a peaceful solution and if people who have felt passionate about researching have caused a problem then one solution I see is having it in another part of the forum to allow the people who want to a chance to talk about it and keep it from misleading people. You can not silence anything but you can ask to help in finding a solution.
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #186
190. I thought as much...
I'm a slow sponge, but eventually I catch on.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #190
196. Well, one thing is for SURE--the defense industry is handling our votes
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 12:15 AM by Carolab
http://www.prisonplanet.com/transcript_harris_091903.ht...

Interview with Bev from last year.

So, I KNOW Accenture is involved.
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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #190
199. Interesting Read, but is it all true

Bush connections everywhere as needed
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #199
205. I'm sure it's true
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 12:52 AM by Carolab
Do you think Bev is making it up? Plus David Allen was at that meeting, transcibing it.

Accenture = Andersen/Enron/Halliburton--think there is any "Bush connection"?

HERE, read this:

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/12/276412.shtml
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #186
203. Do you still think this topic should be shut down?
Just checking.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #181
202. Darn, I can't read the link because the type is very small
Any pointers on how to enlarge it without copying and pasting each piece.

Thanks. It sounds like an interesting turn of events.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #202
204. Easy
Select the whole interview by right clicking it, copy and paste it into Word, enlarge.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
212. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #212
217. Or else a young kid who has no idea how to search for info properly?
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 03:18 AM by Bozos for Bush
If you are a kid, it's not too late for you.

But you need to understand that election fraud is the most serious threat to America in her history.

The world used to count on America to lead the way. America stood for something - America was the place people could go to, to be free.

These days, fascsim is taking over. No matter how much devilish fun it might be to lead good people astray, everyone has a heart, and most people know in that heart that America will never be the same again, if we do not stop what is happening right now.

We must not fail. This is a war now - a war against power and greed, a war against people who cheat for the sake of only themselves and their kind of people.

I believe you are a young kid. I believe it's not too late for you. And I hope you realize that young people everywhere will lose, if we fail to stop this menace that is taking over our country.

So, if this is all merely a matter of you not knowing how to do research properly, I volunteer to teach you.

Perhaps I can learn a thing or two as well.

John
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #217
219. I see you made some good posts at Kerry's website (n/t)
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #219
226. So now you are commending yourself Bozo?
:eyes: ;)
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #226
227. What a shameless kick
That post has been up for 2 days, you've had plenty of opportunity to respond to it, and now finally you do because all your garbage is sinking on the boards.

People are wising up around here dude.

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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #227
228. Well, it wasn't addressed to me. Even if it was I'm never
in a hurry to reply to Bozos. ;)
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #217
231. Kick for Bozo
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
224. Does this language suggest anything?
I'm not sure if this is significant, but does this language mean anything with regard to Election2004:

If one has a certain amount of assets and wants to allocate them among N securities, the philosophy of Markowitz is to diversify efficiently. The idea is to pick the portfolio that minimizes the investors risk

The philosophy behind using the variance function as a risk function is that one should minimize the deviation from the mean. The semivariance method says that positive deviation from the mean is okay, but negative deviation should be minimized.


I not sure if I found anything but could formulas involving investing be used in swaying election results?
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
230. Vintage Tin Foil Hat Stuff
Many of us here are novice tin foil hatters who have only been at it since the election.
To better frame this discourse and bring it into perspective I offer this link (http://www.hermes-press.com/Voting/vote_rig.htm ) by the late Dr. Norman Livergood concerning the danger of electronic manipulation of voting.
Dr. Livergood had been at this stuff so long that he died with gold brocade on his tin foil hat and golden tin foil epaulets on his shoulders.

This link has expired. If you just try to go directly to it you will only get 404 page not found.
You must first go to www.archive.org and then paste in the link.

This is a REALLY GOOD read!

Wiley
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