Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Forget Kerry... He's forgotten us- RANT

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:36 AM
Original message
Forget Kerry... He's forgotten us- RANT
In my mind, John Kerry is the ultimate two faced schmuck.
I worked my ass off for the Kerry Edwards campaign, contributed tons of $, and contributed to the GELAC fund. I feel like my contributions (and millions of others) were all for naught... because Kerry has no FIGHT in him.

I'm angry about it! During the election when people were calling him a flip flopper I always defended him. But you know what? HE IS A DARN FLIP FLOPPER!!! He cant even get in on the election fraud problems right. He's all over the friggin place. What's with that?
I dont think he's fighting at all FOR US.. I think he is covering his own ass so that he can run again in 2008. Fat chance that I'll support that. Fool me once.....


And yes- I DO feel like a dam fool for being so supportive. I was out there on the front lines every single day. I've been telling everyone I know about the voter fraud issue. And wheres Kerry?
No clue. Seems like only the Greens & Indys are standing up.

Alot of this stems from my complete and utter frustration that we were jimmy jammed again by B*sh & Co. In my mind we're totally screwed for another 4 years (which I'm sure will make the first 4 look like a party) because Kerry didn't fight.


I hope someone with genuine integrity, conviction, spunk, maturity and common sense runs in 2008. Someone who isn't soley interested in being big man on campus. Someone who doesn't view everything through a PR view finder. Someone who doesn't walk away from a fight- and a necessary one at that- because they dont want to f up their chances of future presidential runs.

If no Dem comes up in 08 that rings true I guess I have a few choices... Green, Independent--- or just not bothering to vote at all.
Obviously all votes AREN'T created equal.. and aren't counted that way. And so far no dem (Aside from Maxine Waters) is fighting for us IN A REAL AND VISIBLE WAY.

End Rant
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. Kerry has no FIGHT in him?
Don't be so sure, and I hope you are wrong. If you are right, don't look for me to support the Dem's anymore.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MissBrooks Donating Member (614 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
65. If he had any "fight" in him... where is he?
Why is he ignoring all of this?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
In Truth We Trust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #65
92. I give him until Jan. 6th to show his mettle
If he stands for democracy then I will coninue my support. If he fails to do so then I am through with him as a national candidate and also through with the Democratic party as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. Dupe please delete
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 11:39 AM by genieroze
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madison2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. We don't really know what's up with Kerry
If I were him I wouldn't expect to be nominated in 2008. Gore didn't try for the nomination in 2004; I think everyone knows that losing the BIG RACE, however unfairly, marks you as damaged goods.

I don't think anyone here knows what is going on with Kerry. I liked him very much and I worked on the campaign and I believe he won. I also know that as soon as he speaks up the SPIN machine will turn to trashing him again.

Conyers is fighting for us. Jackson is fighting for us. We don't know what is going on behind the scenes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. madison2000
Your right- I did forget John Conyers!!!

Sorry
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hoosierblue Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:59 AM
Original message
losing the BIG RACE... marks you as damaged goods
Didn't Nixon try again after he supposedly beat JFK? Now, I'm not saying Nixon wasn't damaged goods, but "losing the BIG RACE" didn't do that; Watergate did.

I'm also wondering why I've brought up Nixon in my last two posts. Must have the crook on the brain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
60. Old rules can be broken
Nobody expected him to resurrect his campaign in the first place early on. He could pull a Nixon.

It will depend on what happens once Congress starts up. I want to see what leadership role he takes.

But even if he has the best ideas in the world, some will say "Too little too late" as if a good idea is tainted if its being presented by someone you don't like.

Kerry 08.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. Wellllll
Old rules can be broken, your right.
And we could all be more tolerant and accepting.

THat being said- if GWB comes up with a good idea...... I'm still going to ignore his dumb ass. Sometimes it really IS too little too late
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. If GWB comes up with a good idea I guarantee you two things
1) It wasn't really his

2) And he will execute it badly, thereby nullifying any good it might have done. (No Child Left Behind comes to mind)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vpigrad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
4. Agreed!
Where is he? I haven't seen him on TV since he admitted he was giving-up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
32. He has given several local interviews and has been on CSPAN. They don't
cover him. They barely shoed him at the Clinton library! This has been part of the problem. They don't cover him!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
5. actually we need to wait until Jan. 6th
before we really unload on Kerry. I know exactly where you're coming from on this which is why I backed Wes Clark so strongly during the primary. If is were Clark in the same position I know he would have been out there endlessly making the case for voting reform and speaking of the irregularities during this election until everyone understood just how worthless and fraudulent the e-voting system is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. AmerDem
I agree Amer........ & actually I'm not really unloading on him yet. I have alot more to say.

One of the things that upsets me the most is the thought that I backed the "wrong horse" in the primary.

The man I signed on to support, to volunteer for, to vote for- is not the man who has been noticeably absent since Nov 2. In some ways I feel like I was "had"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I hear ya
I'll wait until Jan.6th before I let loose.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. The party in general
To me if you aren't part of the solution- your part of the problem.
Aside from Conyers & Waters there arent a whole hell of alot of Dems out there pounding the pavement waving the S.O.S flag about this election. I think that is total bullshit. They are so worried about saving their god damn jobs and remaining "electable". That's fucking bullshit. By sitting on the sidelines doing nothing & continuing to muck for contributions & take money from corporate America they are making themselves more and more UNelectable to me every day. We are in a fuckin crisis here! Not one but TWO national elections have been stolen.......... WHERE THE FUCK IS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY? To my eye it looks like they are busy being bitch slapped by the Rethugs. The Pukes will ALWAYS "win" if we dont do shit now! The fix is in, they know how to do it. Hell- by doing nothing, we've only allowed them to "perfect" it. I'll throw my ass behind anyone willing to step forward right now and say this election was a fuckin joke and that Bush is a criminal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. I think this is wise advice indeed. Even the staunchest Kerr y supporters
will let loose a flood of rage IF Kerry and the rest of the Dem party doesn't stand and fight on Jan. 6th! Kerry has NO CHANCE of winning anyones vote of confidence EVER again if he does not stand up for democracy. Keep in mind though, we should feel the same about EVERY Democratic Senator and Representative who does not do his/her duty on Jan. 6th! I still have some hope left in me that he will do his duty. He has always liked doing the dirty work behind the scenes. These are the thoughts I have included to EVERY Senator I have written or emailed since this mess began. I think many others are doing the same. America is a hugely populated country. Even if the "nutcases" like us only amount to 20% of the population, that is a HUGE number of people. The Dems can't possibly think that if this many people can believe election fraud occurred, in such a short period of time, with virtually NO media coverage whatsoever, this movement will not continue to grow to proportions enormous enough to cause a serious crisis in this country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
72. I don't expect him to be both candidate and Senator
It would be bad if he stood up unless they ALL stand up.

De-absoluting your statement -- He has a chance of winning someone's vote again because he already has stood up -- my vote. I'm a somebody. Try not to speak for all of us darling. We're not all lined up right behind you.

If he doesn't stand up on Jan. 6th I will understand. But I will be looking for continued signs he's still in the fight. CSPAN is my friend.

This whole election season has been like the Sixties in a blender, all mixed together and moving very quickly from one year to another. What is this instant gratification thing we've got going on. This isn't an "add water and mix" situation. It will need to slow cook.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #72
100. He has stood up, you are correct
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 08:05 PM by bush_is_wacko
I am speaking specifically of Jan. 6th. If Kerry doesn't stand up, people will lose faith. I've seen it happen in ten seconds on this board, of course ten seconds later someone rides in on a white horse and fixes it all but, beleive me, if they don't make some kind of showing on the 6th, the Dem party will lose many. It does not matter at this point whether they have the smoking gun or not. They have enough evidence that our votes have been miscounted and that the recount was a sham. I go back to our legal system. Innnocent until proven guilty, but the police STILL get the oppertunity to investigate. We have to have the oppertunity to investigate and that means NOT allowing the certification of , at the very least, the Ohio ballots. If you feel good enough about the complete disregard of our right as citizens to investigate an election fraught with misconduct to vote for Kerry in 2008, fine by me. I don't and many others won't either. I must tell you I am a real Kerry fan, but if he lets this pass(I don't think he will) I will find another candidate to work for and vote for. That's were I draw the line, period.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. bush_is_wacko
I agree with most everything you said...
This quote was great:
They have enough evidence that our votes have been miscounted and that the recount was a sham. I go back to our legal system. Innnocent until proven guilty, but the police STILL get the oppertunity to investigate. We have to have the oppertunity to investigate and that means NOT allowing the certification of , at the very least, the Ohio ballots
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #104
114. I think most dems would reasonably feel that way and thanks for pointing
out my spelling errors. Opportunity times two to correct that little bit. I'm not sure if I can go back and correct it now so I'll just correct it here. Those that think I'm an idiot now, will still think I'm an idiot tomorrow!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
91. about your 20% figure
Most voters and those polled aren't DU surfing political junkies like we are. I'm willing to bet most of the people who voted in this last election get almost all of their news from the corporate news channels. Just imagine how the percentage number ( people thinking election was a fraud) would climb if people knew half of what we know here. They soon be in our camp.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roenyc Donating Member (824 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. don't think it matters much who
you support in the primary, i supported Clark but by the time primaries come to my state things are all over. whats the point?

i have kept quiet on this because i am relatively new here and don't want to get dumped on but my thoughts on Kerry have gone from excitement one day to severe disappointment the next from the day he won the nomination right up to last nights KO.

Its been a roller coaster and i am not sure i can take anymore. i was so glad the election was coming to an end and Kerry would be president. and then when that didn't happen i thought he would put up a fight. my goodness how much can we stand?

we all know what happened. even if there was no fraud and we know there was. there was blatant disenfranchisement of blacks. a crime in my book. and that man should have said something!!

Arenbeck said yesterday on Randi Rhodes show that Kerry needs to get involved or nothing will happen in a timely matter. he sounded so upset by all of this.

i think he is honoring his stupid skull and bones promise perhaps and i don't like speculating senator Kerry but you leave me no choice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. the primary system is a complete crock
Which is why my Gov. Rendell is pushing to have Pennsylvania's primary moved up so we can have more of a voice. Iowa and New Hampshire are far from the cross spectrum of America but these 2 states are left dictating who represents our party during the presidency.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Darkhawk32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. I concur... Jan 6 is the key date.
If the Dems don't stand up... look out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue Shark Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
57. Where has Wes been lately???...
...Where has any Dem (Leader?) with the exception of Jesse Jackson Been on all this?

They are all losers
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #57
95. Wes has been in the Middle East
Wesley Clark reviewed the security threats facing the region. According to the former NATO commander, the situation in Iraq, the Arab-Israeli conflict, extremism, and Iran's attempt to obtain nuclear arms all pose grave threats to the region. He advised Iraq's neighbours to form a team that would work together to promote healthy relations with the US, discourage those who are trying to obstruct the Iraqi elections, and support the new Palestinian leadership.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/721/re5.htm

So, even though he hasn't been here mopping up this election mess - he's at least trying to mop up another Bush mess somewhere else.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
94. Agreed
Clark was the only candidate who even bothering mentioning the PNAC, as well.
The media treated him like he was looney because of it because THEY didn't do their homework, but I've run across several old media articles calling Clark a nut or a weirdo because he said certain things in December 2003 and January 2004 - that, now, have all come true.

Looney, indeed! :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. I love all these "new" posters who are disillusioned with Kerry.
Welcome :hi:

Can you show me a couple things:

1. "PROOF" of fraud
2. What EXACTLY Kerry should do about it?

Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. MzMolly
Are you saying that there wasn't fraud?

And........ are you also saying that because we're newish we are unwelcome? Or that we're freepers?

That welcome seemed awfully passive aggressive.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I am saying there is no proof of fraud, and I'm suspicious of those
who come here threatening to leave the Democratic Party because John Kerry isn't screaming "FRAUD, FRAUD!" :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. She's saying if you're giving up on our party, why did you choose...
...this moment in time to join DU? That's kind of counter-intuitive, wouldn't you say?

NGU.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
35. I think she was asking you to provide the proof of fraud
that justifies your demands on Kerry. If you want to establish your bona fides, you might want to skip the unnecessary psychological analysis and instead actually reply to her post. Just a reminder of what she wrote:

Can you show me a couple things:

1. "PROOF" of fraud
2. What EXACTLY Kerry should do about it?

Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. If we're new we dont get to be disillusioned?
I guess I have to wait till my 1000 post to have an opinion that in any way differs from yours?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Go ahead, be disillusioned.
"If no Dem comes up in 08 that rings true I guess I have a few choices... Green, Independent--- or just not bothering to vote at all.
Obviously all votes AREN'T created equal.. and aren't counted that way. And so far no dem (Aside from Maxine Waters) is fighting for us IN A REAL AND VISIBLE WAY."


:nopity:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
28. It's fine to be disillusioned, but it's wrong...
...to paint our guys as the enemies. We're hereby instituting DU's answer to Ronnie Raygun's 11th Commandment of politics: "Thou shall not speak ill of any Progressive in public."

And forget BUSH** and the Radical Right Wing - THEY'RE the ones who don't give a damn about us.

NGU.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
34. No, you simply don't EVER get to disagree
... that's the type of Echo Chamber DU has become, unfortunately.

I would like to know why people are still insisting Kerry has something up his sleeve when
a. he conceded most quickly
b. he has NEVER publicly questioned the outcome
c. his crew is timid - at best - about getting involved in the melee
d. even his LAWYERS are saying 'this isn't about 2004'.

Those of us who have voiced those same sentiments here have been skewered and hung out to dry, yet Kerry - THE FRIGGIN' CANDIDATE - says the same things and it's 'code' for some 'secret plan' to 'save the day'.

WTF ??? :wtf:


:hippie:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Amen to that! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. See post #28 above and tell me where I say that Kerry has...
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 01:11 PM by ClassWarrior
...a "secret plan" to "save the day." I have always said...

a. this isn't about Kerry, it's about our votes.
b. we don't KNOW what Kerry is up to, so it's wrong to slam him - don't we as Progressive Americans believe in "innocent until proven guilty," as another poster so eloquently put it today?
c. DU's 11th Commandment of Politics: speak ill of no Progressive in public.

NGU.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Hmmmm... I see the problem...
If you only ANSWER the posters who skewer you, perhaps you're encouraging them.

NGU.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
67. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
deacon2 Donating Member (396 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. Thank you
You are correct in more ways than one. Of course my saying this means nothing as I haven't achieved the required number of posts to be considered "legitimate."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #67
87. In case you're unaware, please see this thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

There are rules around here you know.

NGU.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deacon2 Donating Member (396 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #34
77. Thank you
You are also right in more ways than one. Of course my saying this means nothing as I have not achieved the required number of posts to be considered "legitimate."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
40. you better read this
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. Read it long ago, thanks.
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 04:00 PM by mzmolly
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
enough already Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
49. So only "new posters" see the fraud?
That's interesting. If you can't see it, then I can't help you. I know I sound like a broken record, but Kerry and every other Democrat needs to be screaming about this. Jan. 6 is d-day for this party.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. I can't see it because I've not been shown "it"
:hi:

Investigations take time, and this one needs ... time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #54
64. Am I to take from your post that
You don't clearly see signs of (at the very least) voter suppression?

I think the evidence IS out there. But I also don't think I have a HUMONGOUS Gelac fund to uncover it........ I believe many of us donated to John Kerry's Gelac fund so that THIS VERY THING WOULDN'T HAPPEN.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. The GELAC fund is being utilized ...
How do you think he's paying the attorneys in Ohio?

Kerry has made numerous statements on this election and the importance of "counting the votes" and "standardized voting" etc.

Voter supression is "unfortunately" nothing new but needs to be address on a larger level. Democrats are doing that.

Additionally, Kerry has said that he will be fighting for a national standard procedure with a paper trail ie. *a standard nationalized voting system - where EVERY voter will use the same system and have the same access to vote*

Small snip on Kerry and voter supression:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/shared/news/p...

"Its critical that we investigate and understand any and every voting irregularity anywhere in our country, not (necessarilly) because it would change the outcome of the election but because Americans have to believe that their votes are counted in our democracy." ~ John F. Kerry

Here is a taste of what the RW is saying (just incase your unaware)

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/new/article286.ht...

"John Kerry And Pals Still Working To De-Legitimize The Election."

"Could this latest challenge be the reason John Kerry held out $50MM (Kerry said it was only $15MM) from contributions to his campaign fund? Had he planned to challenge the election all along? If you believe anything Mr. Kerry has said, then you must believe it. Prior to the election, Kerry and his sycophants said that if the Kerry/Edwards ticket lost, they would automatically challenge the election. In the Kerry campaign book, his Kool-Aid drinkers were told to claim voter suppression even if there was none. So, here he goes. At last count, Kerry had 17,000 lawyers working toward creating fraud, where there was none, to overturn the election and place Kerry in the White House. If there ever was a political party trying to foment sedition amongst its under-educated ranks and create an atmosphere rife for rebellion, its the Democrat Party. Be watchful. Their dirty tricks, definitely, havent ended yet."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #70
78. Lets hope this time he means it
He said every vote would be counted in THIS election...
then did the quickest bow out possible.
NOW he wants to deal with the electoral problems?

To me it makes him look a damn fool for not
trying harder when he WAS the candidate.

It wasn't as if 2000 didn't teach us that it could be done.
And the repubs certainly arent above doing it
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. He bowed out because he believed he lost by close to 4 million votes.
He was prepared for another Florida. This situation does not compare.

He is playing this thing as he should. He's assisting the "investigation" and as you know the RW is claiming he's the driving force behind the fraud allegations.

As I said, it's a no win for Kerry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
illflem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
11. Hold your horses
It just could be that Kerry is waiting for positive fraud proof before going forward, collecting evidence quietly. This is the best way to do it otherwise the media would distort and destroy it. This is the same method any good lawyer or prosecutor uses. How would Kerry look to the majority of Americans if he was running around spouting off accusations that couldn't be proven?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
39. I'm sorry but Kerry was smart enough to know what he was going
to be up against. We all knew there would be problems in Ohio, and also in Florida. Yet the huge team of lawyers that he sent out to oversee the election hadn't a clue what to look for. Still they all had eyes in their heads. The massive lines in inner cities, the confusion of provisional ballots, etc. Yet, Kerry conceded the next morning. Not questioning one incident of voter disenfranchisement.


I have said it before, although I still don't want to believe it. Kerry was in collusion and we were all given the illusion of an election.

BTW....why is Kerry somewhat participatory in Ohio? To keep the awake masses somewhat satisfied.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
14. Did you just say "voter fraud"?
I've heard that expression before, but a better choice of words would have been "election fraud".

Huge difference!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
18. Can't say that I disagree with you
Can't say that at all!

HAd I known on November 2 the things I know today about his character, I probably would have gone a different way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Do you think that if Dean were in Kerry's position he would be
assuming the same posture?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Nope, Dean is a REAL fighter
unlike the phony fight Kerry is waging.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. That's the least of the differences that 'could have been'(nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. My point exactly, wouldn't be any doubt where he would be on
this issue. He'd be kickin a$$ and takin prisoners
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KerryDownUnder Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
44. I agree Walt
It's almost as if Kerry is just doing enough to make those of us who feel there were legitimate result-changing problems think he's actually doing something when, in reality, there isn't a whole lot you can point to that shows Kerry is helping our cause.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
58. Did Dean go to Kerry with what he knew about BBV? I am sure he would have
if he truly believed that electronic voting fraud occurred in Ohio, and I am sure Dean would be leading the fight to expose that vote fraud TODAY.

I don't think Dean has a full grasp of BBV, either, and he has seen quite a bit of material on it. I do expect him to "get it" fully at some point. He's closer than most. Too bad it will be too late for us now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lostnote03 Donating Member (850 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. wouldn't it be interesting if....
....Kerry were to make a statement this evening regarding the Ohio<cough>recount....I would think that if there were any work in progress ie:contesting the election, tonight would be the moment to establish a platform by which to warm up the believers as well as firing a shot across the GOPs bow.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
66. Dean Would Be
All over the freakin place trying to get this story out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #66
81. As a Dean supporter in the primaries, I can say he's been criticized for
NOT pushing this issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #38
52. I was putting it more politely, but that's what I said
to you and all the other fair weather friends in this thread.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VTGold Donating Member (438 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
29. I agree BUT - innocent until proved guilty - let's wait & see what we see.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
30. It still bothers me about the exit polls....
The Ukrainian election was 're-voted' because the exit polls showed the true winner. And the true winner did emerge.

So, I will say this... I really wish we had a leader - anybody in the democratic party. I see none yet - even Kerry. But I have to also admit, ladies and gentlemen, it is our fault as well. We should be out on the streets protesting like the wonderful people of Ukraine.

Unfortunately, our society is so entangled with just surviving, it is difficult to get millions of people out and voice their opinion. Additionally, there are indeed people you voted for the idiot (something I simply cannot understand).

Went to a Christmas dinner at some friends house - one person said they voted for the idiot because 'Edwards is a trial lawyer', the 2nd said 'Teresa was mean' and the third voted 3rd party.

Go figure...

This only means that our job is *never* done. We need to keep fighting and voicing our opinions - always. For instance, we need to stop the idiot from 'reforming' Social Security. It is his way of continuing to loot our treasury.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Unfortunately, there was massive "proveable" fraud in Ukraine n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #31
115. yes it's quite 'unfortunate' isn't it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
euler Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
103. In Ukraine...
...there was a gap between exit poll and vote tally that was almost 5 times larger than the US.

In Ukraine, the fraud evidence was not primarily the exit polls - it was actual reports from 3000 international observers. The fraud they reported was, for example, ballot boxes being burned up with ballots in them, voters being beat up by gangs, and the like. In other words, unlike the US, fraud was reported by thousands of eyewitnesses as it happened.

The exit polls just corroborated the fraud.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
4_TN_TITANS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
33. Sheesh...
I guess this thread was just a rant. Kerry is doing the smart thing by waiting until there is hard PROOF to avoid jumping into an "electoral Vietnam". It wouldn't just damage him, it would damage the party if he was shouting "fraud" when there isn't solid evidence of fraud. Give the man a break - he just lost a physically and mentally exhausting whirlwind of a race. I think any of us would have to take time to collect our thoughts and not be tempted to fight a so far unprovable battle....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Kerry needs to take a more active role
if we ever expect to find "proof of fraud." Impounding the evidence is a good start, but it should have been done on November 3, not December 27. The bottom line is, if the candidate doesn't care it makes an investigation nearly impossible. If it weren't for the third party candidates, we'd be up a creek with no swift boat in sight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #37
98. He didn't attempt to "preserve the crime scene."
He didn't ask to confirm the accuracy of voting machines that produced multiple voter complaints on public records.

He didn't establish a vigilant presence in the continuation of the vote count. He says nothing while Blackwell makes a sham out of the Democratic process with blatant criminal behavior.

He didn't establish and re-establish his expectations about the process of counting (and Recounting) the votes.

He didn't talk about the vote suppression and the long lines that were factually based.

He hasn't responded to new information about voting problems since his premature concession.


None of the above would've required him to allege fraud, and doing so would've shown his constituents some stones. Sure, someone would have skewered him, but they have every step of the way. But you can't run your public life on avoiding hitting the opposition's most sensitive nerves. He never has--why now? That's all I'm asking (and I don't want to hear that he is still on a covert mission.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Right, and everybody who bashes K/E also conveniently forgets that
Edwards wife has CANCER and is undergoing chemotherapy and radiation. Perhaps they are deciding to keep a low profile until they have proof because to enter their families into the malay that would ensue would be adding to the difficulties they are going through right now. They are human beings after all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #42
71. I never said I had a problem with Edwards
I have no problem with him laying low.
He has to put his family first.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #71
90. Kerry has to consider Edwards, they are after all running on the same
ticket. If Edwards could not fulfill his duties as VP because of his situation, it might prevent Kerry from going after the fraud with as much intensity as he would have ordinarily. They both have to be willing to slug it out with what the GOP would be throwing at them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
43. I concur -- Kerry has been a dismal disappointment!
I too swallowed my misgivings of him as a candidate and worked at least eight hours a day seven days a week for him for months -- and his lack of leadership and guts on issues such as Iraq and now his wussy flirting with the recount/fraud effort in Ohio have totally sickened me. He was not a great candidate! I have said before that Election 2004 was his to lose and lose it he did -- he tried to take so many sides on the Iraq issue it was painful to watch. As I've said elsewhere, I for one won't ride that donkey again! Leadership is standing up for something when it's unpopular and maybe even embarrassing to do so. Unfortunately I think the election for Kerry was always all about his ego -- and not about the larger issues dealing with the direction of our democracy, etc.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fedupinBushcountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. My first post and why I have never posted
in almost 2 years of being registered on this forum. Why because of stupid responses like yours and the poster.

I would love to see some of you say these things in John Kerry's face, or are you all talk and no walk.

I have never seen such ugliness as I have on this forum, between those of like minds. The right is laughing at us, we have so many inner fights and as soon as something goes wrong with the party the WHINERS begin.

So now you talk the pundit Rovian style and kick the candidate around, aren't you special.

It is disgusting how you rip apart a good man who loves his country and faught damn hard to win this election, which I believe he did. You won't ride that donkey again? Who's EGO are we talking about ? I think you need to take a good long hard look in the MIRROR.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. WELCOME to DU!!!
Fabulous post...yet another kindred spirit! :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. Is that the best you can do after 2 years of lurking?
More codependence:

* You must not criticize the head of the family, even if he deserves it.

* Please don't let the neighbors know there are problems in this family (we have to keep Family Secrets secret)

* Turning on the person who dares speak the ugly truth: "How dare you criticize the guy who sorely needs criticizing (because he's not doing his job)? YOU are the problem, not the one you're criticizing."

* Making excuses for the slackard, as if past performance excuses current failings (it doesn't).

This is sick -- and getting sicker.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. Welcome to fray!
First of all I have been consistent throughout the election cycle -- back in the primaries I voiced most of these same concerns about Kerry as a candidate and have every right to be critical of him and the democratic party. We are NOT a lock-step party wherein all the members have to agree -- we have historically come together as a broad coalition of interests more or less around what might loosely be called progressive politics. It is not whining to criticize and analyze either our candidates or our party's positions. We are a contrarian bunch -- that's why I'm a democrat. If I wanted 'black - white,' no questions asked loyalty, I'd be a Republican fascist!

I worked hard for Kerry, but I was not for a moment so naive or 'party above all else' loyal not to see the deficiencies in both Kerry and the campaign he ran. If you don't learn from history, you will repeat it over and over. The democratic party has been doing that for several election cycles now -- figuring that if they move further and further to the right they'll finally win. It hasn't worked and it never will. The democratic party will simply become more and more irrelevant. I have worked for the Democratic Party for 45 years -- yes as a child I worked in the Kennedy campaign -- so I believe I've earned the right to have a point of view -- and to be treated to more respect that to be impugned with silly allegations of being 'Rovian.'

Because Kerry is a 'good man who loves his country and faught (sic) damn hard to win this election' does not immunize him against criticism of either his strength as a candidate or the strategy his campaign adopted. I personally believe that it was his campaign to lose -- I think had we had a more progressive candidate with stronger convictions who spoke unambiguously for the people needs (about 40% who didn't bother to vote) we would have won in a landslide and the Bushits would not been able to steal it. We'll never know if I am right or not -- history doesn't give us second chances unfortunately.

When I say I won't ride that donkey again -- I am obviously playing on Sharpton's convention speech metaphor and am saying that as long as the democratic party and Kerry donkey continue to go down the same losing path, I'm not going to ride. I'm taking a different road. I'm not sure what road that is just now -- it might be that progressives all across the country can form a strong coalition to take back the democratic party, or if not, we might have to form an alternate political vehicle.

By the way, I for one WOULD HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM saying what I've said to
Kerry 's face -- he's a man just like any other. I am not dazzled by celebrity! After all I'm a democrat and really BELIEVE that legitimate power belongs to the people - including me!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #51
74. Emillereid
Great post. I thought alot about what you wrote, & I agree.

I am 100% with the original principles of the Democratic party. But, since Clinton left office I think we have really lost alot of ground.
Many of the DEMs we have elected have chosen to go Republican Lite.
I really don't think that is what any of us had in mind when we voted them in.

As the party has begun to implode on itself these last few years, I kept thinking eventually it would all work itself out. I see clearly now that It isn't. Party unity is a think of the past. That worries me. Bush has only begun to push his right wing (lunatic) agenda for this term. I think it is a damn disgrace that the Democratic Senators etc. don't start fighting HARD against this. Being the lesser of two evils is not a platform I want to vote for.

THAT is where my angst comes in. I believe there are men and women in the DEM party that represent us well & are amazing people. But I also believe that they are quickly becoming the minority.

I've thought many times about aligning myself with another party since the election ended. In the end I will do what I believe in my heart. I remain hopeful (in a closeted way) that the DEM party can pull this out. That enough voices can be heard above the din demanding change- and accountability from our representatives.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue Shark Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
61. We are Lied to at every turn...
...By BushCo. We don't need that treatment from our own guy.

I think the overwhenlming anger being expressed here is a natural reaction to the realization that John Kerry Lied to all of us about fighting to win.

He WON...and through mountains of documented voter disenfranchisement and statistical impossibilities, the "reported vote" told us he lost.

Then...John F. Kerry conceeded and did NOT FIGHT.

We will be having this exact discussion on January 6th when nothing happens and again on January 20th when the coronation of King George II takes place.

And you know what?

"Reporting for Duty" will still be "Howdy Duty".

Now watch this Drive!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #45
76. Welcome fedupinBushcountry! Well stated! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #45
79. F.Y.I
I'd be happy to say anything I've said here, along with a myriad of other questions, right to John Kerry's face.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #45
83. Why is well-earned criticsm seen as destructive?
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 05:20 PM by joeunderdog
When you tell your kids that they were wrong to do something, does it make you mean? Does it make them weaker? Are you a whiner?

When you state your disagreement about how you feel your Democratic candidate is conducting his/her politics, does it automatically make you a Republican? Does it make you feel better to stay ON-MESSAGE like a good little neo-con? Are we THAT disillusioned because still believe that politicians are supposed to be a reflection of their constituents rather than vice-versa?

We are SUPPOSED to tell politicians how we feel, unless he's GWB of course. I'm actually glad we don't agree on everything, because all of those Freepers who are laughing at our disagreements stopped thinking on their own a long time ago. How f*cken rewarding. (Please-just shoot me at the first moment I try to stay on message for anything.)

Well, I've got a beef with the fact that Kerry hasn't used his political clout to galvanize support, to give that A-Hole Blackwell reason to pause everytime he breaks recount laws, to inform the sheeple by forcing MSM's hand, to bring the concept of Election Fraud into the realm of credibility and to LEAD like he promised. And as a Bostonian, if I sat next to Kerry in a bar, I'd tell him all of this, and I'll bet he'd take it like a man and listen. And after I told him how I felt, we'd still shake hands and raise a glass because he would understand. He might not agree, but he'd understand.

The bottom line is, he doesn't need all of this insulation from the critics whose passion was the esssential element of the success he had. We critics value what he had to offer, and we don't need to be called Kerry Bashers because we are criticizing his invisibility since the election. When we laid it out for him, we bought the right to criticize, to rant, to disagree and to not pretend that being on message will get us into heaven.

After all, this is America...or what's left of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #45
101. I agree with what you said.
Welcome to DU -- the posting part anyway.

What we are showing here is how fickle we are. We want things to be immediate -- instant gratification and if we don't get what we want we all turn into Veruka Salt and DEMAND that we get it NOW.

Kerry has never been a dismal failure in his life. He could be a dismal disappointment to you, but we picked him and we must stay behind him if we ever hope to have any candidate worth their salt to run again. Who would with a bunch of ingrates like us backing them? As I said last night, you either support the MAN or you don't. Kicking him while he is down is not so attractive.

I don't pretend to know what he is doing or what he isn't doing because frankly, right now, I don't care. I am not privy to it and can't make his choices for him. I am sure all his choices wouldn't be exactly what I would have done, but then I was not the candidate of choice for this party, was I?

I do know that I believe in him and all that he stood for -- a nation that could once again hold it's head up and HELP each other rather than always trying to "one up" each other.

Kerry is a good man who has devoted his entire adult life in service to his country. He could easily "drop out" and vacation for the rest of his life, and could have before considering running for this office in this party. But he didn't. He "suffered the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune" for all of us.

Now, because he is not doing what you think he should you are ready to throw his bones to the dogs.

We are a sorry bunch, aren't we?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #101
105. Sydnie
I'm not trashing Kerry when I say the following:

but I don't believe for one milli-second that he chose to run purely for the people. There was some personal agenda there.
No one in their right mind would run for public office & put up with the scrutiny & the defamation (Shit Boat Liars) without it being at least somewhat for personal gain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #105
109. Maybe I still want to believe that some of us see the bigger picture
that sacrificing for the greater good means something still. I am not saying that he wouldn't have gotten personal gratification if he had been deemed the winner... no one can be THAT selfless and still function in our society, such as it is.

But having said that, I do believe that he would have set the tone for getting back to basics as far as thinking things through before acting. And, just maybe, make a choice (as with abortion rights) that benefited the people rather than just furthering his own opinion.

Having pride in oneself is not a damning postion. Thinking that your opinion is more important than what is good for all (as bush does) is.

I am NOT saying that Kerry didn't have issues, we all do. I am not saying that he represented me and my opinion fully either. But he was a damn fine example and would have made his administration something that would uplift us and give us something to believe in again.

I just hate to see us trash "our" candidates every time they don't meet our expectations. No one candidate will ever do that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
85. Emillereid- another great post
I agree- it really WAS his election to "lose".

I worked like a dog for the K/E campaign & I saw first hand
how pumped up people were to free this country from the Bush regime.
I made hundreds and hundreds of calls to perspective voters this year and of that I only ever spoke to a dozen or so who were pro Bush. Prior to Nov 2 I traveled to 3 states..... ALL were awash with Kerry signs. It was amazing!

I worked the polls on election day & was elated at the turn out. I live in a hugely republican area and- 67% of the vote in this county went to Kerry. Such a boost that night. As the day went on I spoke with other volunteers across my county who were stationed at various polling places & EVERY person told the same story- unbelievably high voter turn out! I showed up to vote hours before my polling shift was to start. At 7 AM I was in a line of about 200 people.
It was unreal! Fantastic! The entire day was like one big cloud of positivity. After spending the rest of the day handing out DEM info, I left the polls that night doing a jig in my head. The momentum was extraordinary.

You could literally have knocked my ass over with a feather when they announced that Kerry was (1) Losing and then (2) conceding.

I knew right then and there that SOMETHING had gone wrong somewhere. And yet- there was Kerry. Telling us it was over.

All of you- think for a minute! Go back to Nov 2. Remember the feeling of that day! The momentum. The positivity. The upward shift. Kerry was even writing his acceptance speech. People were ebullient! And then..... the bottom fell out. It is inconceivable to me that Bush won in any way that was on the up and up. I just don't buy it.


This is where my frustration stems from. Looking back on that day- the certainty I have that this wasnt fair. THATS why I am angry at Kerry. He saw the exit polls. He'd travelled all across the country. He felt the momentum. He also knew damn well what happened in 2000 and should have been prepared. He had said before that it might take a week or so to determine a winner- but that he was prepared to wait UNTIL EVERY VOTE WAS COUNTED!!!!!!

WHY DID HE CAVE SO QUICKLY????????????????????? We'll never really know. - But, thats where my dissapointment stems from
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #85
110. HeyManThatsCool, your post here made me cry!
So many people had this terrible experience including me. Mine went on until about midnight on Nov. 2, by which time I'd figured out pretty much what the BushCons had done, and I felt much better. (I knew something about the electronic voting machines and who owned the secret source code.) I often think of the Kerry voters and volunteers who don't know what happened, and I'm working to inform them. Kerry's concession that night was a further terrible blow. I accepted that it was a wise strategy for a long while, and I have not yet dismissed that possibility entirely. (Jan. 6 will tell!) I also have done some thinking about the BushCons and what they are capable of, and it has given me better human understanding of Kerry, whatever he does.

I just wanted to say that you moved me very deeply. This illusory election was a terrible tragedy in many ways. The American people in fact repudiated Bush and all that he stands for, and they did it resoundiingly (if the truth were known--I think the evidence is overwhelming). And they had that sweet taste of democracy stolen from them, along with their votes. I'm so proud of the American people who saw through all the B.S.

The Evil Media colluded in this crime all along, capped by their falsification of the Exit Polls on everybody's TV screens on Election night. So the bitter truth is that most Kerry voters (including many Republican voters for Kerry) were denied the information they needed to know what really happened, and continue to be ignorant of it because of the Iron Curtain that that same Evil Media has placed on the news about it.

Another tragedy is that I doubt that the unprecedented coalition of grass roots and Dem Party leadership that accomplished this amazing stolen election victory can ever be put back together. It would be put back together if Kerry would come forward now to inform and mobilize the public. My guess is that he isn't going to do that, but well might pursue a long term effort to de-legitimize and disempower Bush & Co.

That is not okay, at this point. This is not any ordinary political thing that is happening. This is our loss of our right to vote, and the end of our democracy. People have a RIGHT to know about this, and to participate in a solution. And there may not be a "long term." The BushCons will surely be emboldened by the lack of opposition to their election crime, as they were in 2000. This calls for opposition NOW. Strong and loud, and unrelenting.

I tend to agree with emillereid that had Kerry been clearer and more articulate about Bush Inc.'s Constitutional outrages and blatant lying and thievery, and had he been more antiwar and more progressive, he may well have won by such a large margin that the BushCons could not have overcome it with election fraud. But both things are speculation--both that he would have won bigger, and that the BushCons wouldn't have stolen it anyway.

But it's a good point--if we have any political future in which to learn from it. I fear that we will not.

Thank you again for your post!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. Peace Patriot
I hope that what you said here- "Another tragedy is that I doubt that the unprecedented coalition of grass roots and Dem Party leadership that accomplished this amazing stolen election victory can ever be put back together." Doesn't end up being true-- but, in my heart I think you might be right. I think about that fact all the time.

Looking back to pre-election days I am overcome with how amazing it was to see such support for Kerry. I really, really, 100% felt that ground swell for change coming. It was almost tangible. The joy I felt when Bush performed so abysmally at the debates (especially #1).
The unity of the Kerry/Edwards rallies. Just days before election day I attended the Philadelphia rally with Kerry & Clinton... more than 100,000 people were there. It was such a positive time. I believed that the dark era of Bush was FINALLY coming to a close. And not a minute too soon.

And then the unthinkable happened! I was so sick on November 3 it was unreal. I wept when I heard Kerry was conceding & I sobbed my way through both speeches. It was, in many ways, like a death.

When I look to 2008 what scares me is:

Could I go through all that again? Could any of us? I lost so much time with my family, my friends, my job. Months and months of my life that I sacrificed gladly for the better good. When Kerry conceded I felt like it was all for naught. Bush screwed us AGAIN- & his thievery made my volunteer hours seem as waste when Kerry didn't stand up and at least make sure everything was on the up and up. Would 2 or 3 days have hurt?

Will as many people care in 2008? Will that ground swell ever come again?

God I hope so..... But only time will tell. My point in all of this has been that I think if Kerry would SPEAK UP & be direct with us- and reassure his supporters... many many people would feel better about the future. His not saying anything doesn't do much. What would be the point of getting involved in the process again if
THOSE FUCKERS WILL JUST STEAL ANOTHER ELECTION??!?!!!!????!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
46. WTF? Look...
I'll bet my chips on Kerry any day! If Kerry was truly concerned with being "big man on campus" and gaged his actions solely on "PR" he'd be more visible , not to mention verbal, right? I understand your frustrations, however, channeling all of that energy into having a little faith may work wonders for you! PEACE! :think:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. I'm with you fooj, Kerry's the best of the lot by far
As somebody mentioned earlier these are probably the same clowns who decided Dean and Clark were muscled out by "the media" and then stayed home to protest the unfairness of it all, so who the hell cares what they think.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
56. I cant read his mind but I am 100% sure he has not forgotten us....
...he has been acting/reacting cautiously ever since election day. If I had to guess what I think was going on in his mind, I would say that he is having flaskbacks to the late 60's early 70's, and he is afraid that we are about to witness another Wild in the Streets time of riots/chaos/burning/arrests. Having lived through Watergate, he knows that the legal system (with help from concerned citizens and the press and politicians) can uncover and prosecute political crimes, however it takes time. There is absolutely no posibility that the GOP controlled Congress will allow him to be sworn in as President, so he is willing to spend the next one to two years uncovering Karl Rove's crimes the way that good former prosecutor would, building an airtight case.

The problem with this plan is that the people who are behind the Bush cabal have anticipated it. That is why they are talking about ditching the 61 fillibuster rule, appointing all 20 Bush right wing judicial nominees right away so that they can give the neo-cons the federal court of their wet dreams BEFORE Votergate destroys the Bush-Cheney administration.

Kerry needs to think about this. Wont matter if Bush-Cheney-Rove are disgraced if we are stuck with the Federal Court from Hell for the next 30 years.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
59. Anti-Kerry rant the day after Kerry does something
1) Only the Greens and the Indys are standing up. And the name next to theirs is? Say it with me boys and girls -- John Kerry. Interesting you can see the Greens and Libs, but can't see the guy standing right freaking next to them.

2) If he'd forgotten us, if this were all about 2008, he wouldn't be any where near the fraud issue AT ALL. There's no political gain in it. It won't make him president. The most we can hope for is reform and perhaps making something stick to the Bush regime. Most people don't think there is fraud, so most people haven't even noticed what's going on in Ohio. Even those I know who believe in the fraud don't think there's anything that really can be done.

As it is, Kerry is involved in Ohio, in Washington and in Louisiana. Some say that's only because he was pressured. Again, even with pressure, what does he gain by getting involved? We are not the base. We are a vocal minority.

3) If there was no fight in him, then 10 years after BCCI went down, he wouldn't have been a voice in the UK for bank reform. He blasted the Bank of England for being so slow to reform and stood with the people who had lost money in BCCI. All for people who can't vote for him.

How much more will he do for those in his own country.

He's not flashy. He is quietly doing what he can. I don't expect a big dog and pony "LOOK AT ME, I'M HELPING YOU, NOW VOTE FOR ME IN 2008" show. Now that would be campaigning, and odd campaigning at that, because as I say, we are the minority.

If you're not aware that he's a good man, then your support would seem to me to have been pretty shallow despite what you say. If you're going to be a fair-weather friend and take all your frustrations out on Kerry and not aim it at the Bush regime where it belongs, if you don't like the way the game is being played, then personally I wouldn't mind if you took your ball and went home.

I'm here for the long haul, even if I have to stand here all by my lonesome. Wuss out if you want. I nearly beyond caring.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. I dont consider
Expecting more from someone who said he was REPORTING FOR DUTY wussing out. I took much of what he said at face value & am dissapointed in his lack of follow through. He's not standing along side the Greens or the Indys..... he is standing BEHIND them.
Make no mistake about it- John Kerry did not start this movement & he isnt doing all that much to push it forward in a positive way. All the statements etc. that have come from the Kerry camp since this story began have been erratic at best.

Your entitled to your opinion, and I to mine. I believe that discussion in a frank and open manner is the best way to further the goals that so many of us are trying to achieve. But lets not attack eachother. We aren't four.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #63
82. A rant is not discussion and furthers nothing
And yes, let us not attack each other. But I'm sorry, to me that includes attacking our own, ie John Kerry. No circular firing squads, whether you're using a long-range missle or a rifle.

Once again. No matter where John Kerry is standing, he doesn't HAVE TO BE standing anywhere near the fraud investigation. That he is counts in my book.

So there :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #63
84. You seem to forget
that the MSM is a fascist entity that serves only its corporate/rethuglican masters. If Kerry made one iota of movement toward "unconcession", etc...: he would be crucified. Crucified in a most bloody, ugly, and heinous fashion.

Have you forgotten the MSM's unfair treatment of JK throughout the past year? The coverage of the Dem Convention w/ Ralph Reed of all people getting a primo "commentary" time-slot? Their pandering to the Swift Boat vets, giving them air-time under the guise of being "shocked" at their audacity? Do you remember?

So why on God's green earth do you think it would be any different now? Do you really think that JK doesn't know this, or doesn't care about it? Do you really think it would be better for JK to go down in a blaze - a blaze of glory to us, and a blaze of ridicule to the rest of the country who has been poisoned by the MSM and their enablers?


The playing field is tilted.
You cannot fight with the direct approach.
You must plan and scheme behind the scenes.
You cannot do this with the MSM in your face and up your ass.


Here's a quote for you:
"Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed." -Richard Adams, Watership Down
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewsGuyOne Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #59
93. Kerry, as many of us have all along known, is an ESTABLISHMENT MAN
"If he'd forgotten us, if this were all about 2008, he wouldn't be any where near the fraud issue AT ALL. There's no political gain in it."


Huh? He needs to be outfront on this issue, 08 or no 08.
Looking at it even from a Kerry-centric view, he'd have no chance of winning in 08 if the Republicans can simply steal the election without a peep from the Dems or the media.

Bottom line is that he's be altogether silent.

And his silece speaks volumes about his willingness to represent voters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. To me, you are only seeing this one way
"Looking at it even from a Kerry-centric view, he'd have no chance of winning in 08 if the Republicans can simply steal the election"

Which is why he is involved. Plus, he promised.

And no, he doesn't need to be out front. There is more than one way to go at this. He's underneath, investigating.

If he never comes forward, it's because he didn't have enough to come forward with. But still, he has promised to work for election reform. And I for one believe him.

It's as if you won't recognize his involvement unless it's your KIND of involvement. Well, he's not going to be loud. He never has been.

You bought a station wagon. He's not suddenly going to turn into a ferrari.

He's in the game. He is involved. Silent, but involved.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #96
106. He's in the game. He is involved. Silent, but involved.
How do you know?
I mean, really.
HOW DO YOU KNOW?
Conclusively that "He's underneath, investigating."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
68. You're not alone. I feel like you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
86. It never was very bright of us to back Kerry "against"
His dear ol' Yale Skull and Bones frat brother Dubya. Hell, he wouldn't even make the obvious observation that Bush lies all the time! :headbang:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
88. I am just flat out
frustrated by what's going on with Kerry.

Yes, I'm new, but I've been on Kerrys side for months now, defending him tooth and nail against anyone who tried-even for a second-to put him down. If I had known that DU even existed all those months ago, believe me, I would have been over here in a nano second that's for damn sure! Unfortunately, I didn't know about DU until after the so called "election" when I started trying to get information when the media blacked out the issue. I lurked around here at first, then registered. But I've posted very little because frankly it's rather intimidating as this thread proves.

What I want to know is why can't we say exactly how we are feeling around here? As long as a persons intentions are good? Aren't we all in this together after all? If some of us are disappointed in Kerry, why are we not allowed to express that?

FYI-I cried when Kerry conceded. I was depressed and upset and disgusted by *s so called "mandate". I was happy and excited to get a glimmer of hope upon finding out about the election fraud. And ecstatic in the realization that there was a distinct possibility that Kerry would claim victory after all. The past 7 weeks have been an emotional roller coaster and I've spent it waiting and watching for some good news, some great news, some fabulous news.

Yesterdays event was an extreme disappointment to me to say the least. Perhaps I expected too much. I still have a bit of hope and faith that things will look better on January 6th, but that hope is nothing compared to the hope I had a month ago. And I can't stop myself from coming back to the gut feeling that there needs to be someone at the forefront-Kerry or some other brave soul-someone to speak for ALL OF US who have been dissed, lied to and cheated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #88
97. NO shit.
Nowadays, you speak your piece and say you're not happy with the way Kerry's handling this and you get thumped. People discredit you and tell you that you're whining, you're hurting the cause, you're a Freeper and that your comments are not welcome. Sounds rather BushCo, doesn't it?

Whats wrong with disagreeing? I still want Kerry for Pres, but I think he's letting us down. I can criticize him AND still be on his side. And all the while hold out hope that he steps up. Is that so hard to understand?

Or should I be a good little Freeper and stop thinking on my own?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShinerTX Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. Thoughts like these are signs that free speech is alive at DU
I'm glad that people don't all think alike. Disagreements make us sharper.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Niche Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
89. "Flip Flop" hmmm. Waahh. Get over it!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
102. Relax! -- we've come this far, wait until jan. 6 --then go get drunk!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #102
107. Thing is
WE'VE come this far.
I don't really see JK as having done very much.

YOU have gotten the story to KO.
YOU have gotten some of the MSM to pay attention.
YOU have gotten people in America to at least be mildly aware of the story.
YOU, The Greens & the Libs have done ALL THE HARD WORK FOR HIM.
That he swoops in from time to time with a quick "every vote will be counted" is complete bullshit. Want to show me that every vote will be counted? SHOW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Start holding press conferences. Look- he doesn't have to unconcede. I for one have never believed for a second that he would. When he conceded he meant it. That was it for 2004. But, all of us who supported him- and more importantly the disenfranchised voters who got left out in the cold- need to hear from OUR candidate that voting in America STILL MEANS SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!! That he isnt giving up the fight. That our constitutional rights are at the top of his list. Enough of this cloak and dagger bullshit! One statement says one thing, another kind of hints at another, yet another says nothing to see here. COME ON! GET REAL! Thats all I want.... for him to be REAL



IMHO if EE hadn't been diagnosed with cancer we would have
probably gotten 1,000 times the support from the Edwards family.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nmoliver Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
108. collective amnesia?
Hey guys, are people suffering from collective amnesia? Since when did all of us support Kerry because we loved Kerry? We were always concerned about his pro-war stance, his covering up for 9/11 and giving a 9/11 victory to Bush, his failure to expose Bush v. Gore or cite Bush's illegitimacy, his failure to come out against electronic voting, and his total lack of understanding of NAFTA and the WTO.

We supported Kerry because he was our only alternative to Bush! Remember?

The media myth was that Kerry was "electable". If he lost, then what good was he?

So now we find out that the Kerry we have now is the same Kerry we had a year ago when we were supporting Dean and Kucinich.

No kiddin'!

But we've got to do what we've got to do, just as we had to support him with all our hearts, strength, and might before Nov 2.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
111. Hey whiners, get off yer arses and do something visible and public
about the election fraud instead of sitting behind your monitors whining and judging fellow Dems. Ever heard of the "walk a mile in his shoes"? What do we really know here ...Quit whining, it is making all of us look bad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. NVMojo
How does it make YOU look bad that any of us question Kerry?

Does it make you look bad because....

Democrats have brains?

Democrats can string two thoughts together?

Democrats believe in a fair electoral process & are willing to work for it?


It's not as if any of us that disagree are "eating our young" so to speak. It's a dialogue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb 22nd 2020, 06:33 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC