Compulsory ID Card debate to begin today.

[bennywhale]

Charles Clark is introducing the compulsory ID Card proposals to Parliament today. The Lib Dems oppose it, The Tories may oppose it, some Labour backbenchers oppose it. Due to our "Elected Dictatorship" system this may still not be enough to defeat this nightmare.

The nationwide debate starts today. This is the time to persuade everyone you can of the dangers. This is the time to write to Newspapers, ring radio phone ins, write to your MP, and protest at the Commons.

This is the most important bill concerning the liberty of British Citizens in centuries.

ITS TIME TO ACT.

[SouthernDem2004]

1. Do the British have something like SS numbers that the government uses?

[tjwmason]

2. Nothing quite like S.S.

We do have National Insurance numbers which in principle are similar, but they do not seem to be used anything like as much.

A major part of this debate is not the cards themselves (though I do think that they are repugnant), but is the creation of a "citizens' database" (could they think of a more Orwellian name for it?) which would hold vast amounts of (potentially inaccurate) data about every person in the U.K.

Just keep repeating "only the guilty have something to fear".

[muriel_volestrangler]

3. We have a National Insurance number

but it doesn't get used as frequently as American SS numbers do - just by the tax authorities. But it does mean that there's a unique number for each British citizen (and also, I think, anyone who is legally allowed to work for over a year in the country). So that will form part of the record, I expect.

The BBC says:

The bill limits the information that can be held on the ID card data base, the National Identity Register, to relatively few items - notably, name, date and place of birth, address, nationality, immigration status and physical characteristics

though I will be very surprised if the NI number isn't on there too. Now, earlier technical descriptions (probably The Register - very good in this subject) said the database would also keep a record of each time the database was used to check your identity - and by who. This would then give a detailed track of what you've done - started a new job, changed doctors, opened a bank account, and possibly quite a lot more. I'll wait and see if there's a full description of what is really going to be recorded (if, of course, you trust the government security services not to intercept all details anyway, and not to keep a shaodw databse, whatever the law publically says).

[tjwmason]

4. Just keep repeating

"Only the guilty have anything to fear" after a few thousand times, you'll come to realise that this car really will help fight terrorism, and fraud, and that it will make the grass greener, the apples redder and sweeter, and the summers longer.



(I do hope that these aren't needed but just in case :sarcasm: )

[Englander]

5. Price of ID card = £93!!!

"The price of an identity card will be higher than previously thought at £93, the Home Office admitted today, as it published a new bill to introduce the controversial scheme.

It also revealed that the biometric technology due to underpin the system was far from failsafe, with even the best form of identification - iris scans - only scoring a 96% success rate.

In documents accompanying the bill, the Home Office admitted that the cost to an individual of the card had risen to £93, as opposed to its previous estimate of £88.

The average annual running cost for issuing the controversial cards alongside passports was put at £584m."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1491895,00.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. What annoys me is that we pay VAT on this!

That's right, the government is going to tax you for paying to be kept under surveillance. Talk about adding insult to injury ...

[Anarcho-Socialist]

9. It is ridiculous

VAT is a tax on the purchase of goods and services. Losing our civil liberties is a "service" provided by our government now.

[D-Notice]

8. What if you can't afford it?

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. They throw you in debtor's prison, probably (n/t)

[bennywhale]

11. 1. I'm going to claim i can't afford one. 2. If they steal it out my bank

account (which is something being proposed for fine evaders) i'll fucking burn it when it arrives.
3. If i'm refused healthcare cos i don't have one i'll take them to the European court of Human Rights.
4. If they don't comply i'll withold my taxes.
5.If they throw me in jail i'll hopefully get a lot of media coverage for my cause and released.
6. (see 3)

If that fails i'll fucking chin Charles Clark

[bennywhale]

12. Finger print recognition was only 70% reliable. Less for Black people

but didn't reveal figures, probably cos they'd have to release hundreds of poor sods from jail. And only 48% accuracy for disabled peoples iris scan.

What kind of cowboy system is this going to be.

[Nihil]

19. Nope, it'll be more than that ... £93 is the unit cost, not the fee!

Check out http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1492289,00.html

> Ministers said yesterday that the £93 for an ID card mentioned in the
> documents accompanying the bill was the unit cost not the fee, which
> has yet to be set.

In addition, the above article shows the sinister truth of the ID plan:
> It is expected that the scheme will become compulsory in 2013

And to cap it all, the US are demanding that we use the same type of
embedded chips as they are using so that they can extract all the data
that they want.

Big Brother? Full speed ahead!

[T_i_B]

22. ID cards to cost £300 per person

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1494944,00.html

The government's plans to introduce identity cards were dealt a body blow last night after it emerged the true cost of the scheme could top £18 billion, more than triple the official estimate.

The figure has been calculated by experts at the London School of Economics, who have spent months producing one of the most authoritative analyses of the scheme.

Last week the Home Office issued a report which estimated that, over the next decade, the cost of running the scheme, in conjunction with a new biometric passport system, would be £5.8bn. Because the Treasury has insisted the scheme must be self-financing, this works out at an average cost of £93 to each card holder.

But, according to the LSE's analysis, a draft section of which has been obtained by The Observer, the true cost of implementing and running the scheme, will be between £12bn and £18bn. This could make the average cost of a card as high as £300 to every adult, unless government departments are prepared to shoulder some of the financial burden.

[fedsron2us]

23. Iceberg dead ahead

but those at the helm are not paying attention. With the Tories and the Liberal Democrats stating that they will oppose these proposals the government will be getting nervous about the 30 plus Labour rebels who voted against this measure last time. This flag-ship policy could soon be holed below the waterline and sink with all hands.

[Englander]

24. Yes - How long do you think it will be...

before the ID cards are called

"Community Cards"?


:)

[D-Notice]

27. They started off as something similar:

originally they were going to be called "Voluntary Entitlement Cards"!

[Englander]

28. I didn't know that;

I was actually making a Poll Tax/Id Card joke,
& I guess most of the posters here are too young
to remember that the Poll tax was also known as the
Community Charge.

This inherently Blairite scheme will be known as Tony's
Poll Tax,if it continues.

[T_i_B]

29. I can remember..............just!

The Poll Tax was around when I was about 8-10 years old. I can still remember how angry people were about it.

I had a very politically aware family when I was little, even if my parents were very right wing. One of my earliest memories is of my Dad ranting about how terrible Arthur Scargill was whilst I was sitting playing with my toys.

[D-Notice]

34. Here's a link to the original document about them

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs/entitlement_cards.pdf (pdf file) from July 2002.

I vaguely remember the Poll Tax - I was 9 in 1990 when the riots were taking place, so probably saw it on TV...

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. Motto of the World State in Brave New World:

"Community - Identity - Stability". I just started rereading the book (hence my latest signature line). It struck me it would have been an ideal slogan for the New Labour manifesto.

[sweetheart]

7. They should add corporations to this legislation

All directors of corporations should have to carry ID Cards of the
company as well, that these mysterious "voodoo" persons are held to
account as much as flesh and blood persons are... or this data should
be tied in with the compulsory ID card, that no corporate person
circumvent the law (or be above the law).

If it is not worth doing for corporations, then why the heck is it
being done to individuals? Corporations have killed more persons in
the UK through poisoning, accidents and corporate crime, and as well
front and manufacture weapons, chemicals and explosives used in
terrorism, but the law is being directed away from the criminal
corporations towards the sovereign individual... that we all have
a bloody sheep-tag in our ears.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. UK ID scheme rides again, as biggest ID fraud of them all

The Register analyses the claim that there's £1.3 billion of fraud due to ID theft in Britain each year, and that ID cards will help stop this.

Their conclusion: it would stop £35 million. Most of the rest involves international ID, such as VAT and excise fraud; about £400 million is credit card fraud, which the ID cards will do nothing to stop (unless the damn things become so ubiquitous that we have to show them every time we purchase something with a credit card, which isn't the plan).

I love these bits:

Did we miss one? Possibly, but these old faithfuls serve the latest New Labour junior minister rotated into the Home Office ID card hotseat well as ammunition to bore the press with. Alongside them the form of words 'we never said ID cards were the complete answer to... (insert terrorism, ID theft, benefit fraud etc here)" comes in handy, and now they can also say (as Tony Blair did last week): "It is a manifesto commitment and we will honour it."* All of the claims are however either false or grossly misleading, the "we never said..." that the Government never mentions is what the ID scheme is the solution to, and while one might be inclined to applaud a determination to honour manifesto commitments, one can't help noticing the numerous previous commitments that haven't been honoured, and the things the Government has done in the past (e.g. the odd war, scads of repressive legislation and the attempted destruction of the judicial system) that unaccountably failed to appear in the 2001 manifesto.
...
* On the subject of manifesto commitments and honour, last Parliamentary session the TheyWorkForYou database was reporting that Tony Blair "sometimes" rebelled against his party. Which may strike you as strange, but investigation reveals that he voted against the Labour line twice, on the abolition of foxhunting, and on the reform of the House of Lords, both of these, we recall, being manifesto commitments.

[bennywhale]

14. Lying is in New Labour's blood. I fucking hate them

[Briar]

15. US wants to be able to access Britons' ID cards

US wants to be able to access Britons' ID cards
By Kim Sengupta


The United States wants Britain's proposed identity cards to have the same microchip and technology as the ones used on American documents.

The aim of getting the same microchip is to ensure compatability in
screening terrorist suspects. But it will also mean that information contained in the British cards can be accessed across the Atlantic.

Michael Chertoff, the newly appointed US Secretary for Homeland Security, has already had talks with the Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, and the Transport Secretary, Alistair Darling, to discuss the matter.


...

More at:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=641731

(Edited to remove duplicate link.)

[Englander]

16. Question - Would you want anyone's personal info..

to be given to this man?



Michael Chertoff

"Security Nominee Gave Advice to the C.I.A. on Torture Laws
By David Johnston, Neil A. Lewis, and Douglas Jehl
The New York Times

Saturday 29 January 2005

WASHINGTON - Michael Chertoff, who has been picked by President Bush to be the homeland security secretary, advised the Central Intelligence Agency on the legality of coercive interrogation methods on terror suspects under the federal anti-torture statute, current and former administration officials said this week.

Depending on the circumstances, he told the intelligence agency, some coercive methods could be legal, but he advised against others, the officials said.

Mr. Chertoff's previously undisclosed involvement in evaluating how far interrogators could go took place in 2002-3 when he headed the Justice Department's criminal division. The advice came in the form of responses to agency inquiries asking whether C.I.A. employees risked being charged with crimes if particular interrogation techniques were used on specific detainees.

> snip

One technique that C.I.A. officers could use under certain circumstances without fear of prosecution was strapping a subject down and making him experience a feeling of drowning. Other practices that would not present legal problems were those that did not involve the infliction of pain, like tricking a subject into believing he was being questioned by a member of a security service from another country.

http://truthout.org/docs_2005/01292005C.shtml

[bennywhale]

20. If they want my information, i want all bank accounts, health records

(down to the details of that rash they had on thier genitals at university), spending habits, donations, income, the lot of every MP to be published.

I then want professionals to be paid to compile a 'profile' of that person's lifestyle, views and character, and then i can decide whether or not i want them as my MP.

[sweetheart]

17. What about the European information privacy directive?

Since when does the US get free access... this is against the law!

The USA is a criminal nation, and has no right to access the records of
ANY european persons... geez, don't they get it? The US is creating
a database based on religion, so they can torture muslims and dark
races, and they want the whole world in their databases so the can
track and send death star rays down to kill whomever is not christian.

This is spooky, the most dangerous thing of this Identity card BS,
is sharing it across borders... OMG! That is really heinous. and Clarke
better grow a pair of balls and say No!

[Briar]

18. More balls than Blunkett, I hope

who has already signed us up to an extradition policy that protects US citizens but gives the US the right to haul any of us over to the States to suffer the injustice of their courts.

[D-Notice]

21. ID cards to cost £300 per person

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1494944,00.html

The government's plans to introduce identity cards were dealt a body blow last night after it emerged the true cost of the scheme could top £18 billion, more than triple the official estimate.

The figure has been calculated by experts at the London School of Economics, who have spent months producing one of the most authoritative analyses of the scheme.

But, according to the LSE's analysis, a draft section of which has been obtained by The Observer, the true cost of implementing and running the scheme, will be between £12bn and £18bn. This could make the average cost of a card as high as £300 to every adult, unless government departments are prepared to shoulder some of the financial burden.

The LSE believes the government has grossly underestimated the cost of the technology involved in making the system work. Last week the government estimated the biometric card readers needed to scan the cards would cost £250-£750. 'A more likely figure ... would be in the range of £3,000 to £4,000 per unit,' the report suggests.

It's getting like an auction - it increases everyday. do I hear £400?

[mr blur]

25. Does anyone really believe this shit?

"The scheme,...is considered controversial because personal details on the central database can be accessed by public sector organisations, without the individual's consent."

Civil liberties - we used to value them in this country, didn't we?

"But immigration and asylum minister Tony McNulty defended the plan. 'A secure compulsory national identity card scheme will help tackle illegal immigration, organised crime, ID fraud, terrorism and will benefit all UK citizens,' he said. "

- it will certainly benefit "organised crime", who will no doubt be rubbing its hands at the thought of the lucrative market in forged ID cards.

Does anyone really believe this shit?

[bennywhale]

26. This is the most sophisticated and extensive system of its kind anywhere

in the world. Which means it will either be the biggest fuck up of all time or we will become the most unfree democracy anywhere in the world.

Either way its a shit idea, and i can't see it going through. The more the debate goes on the more people are against it, and i will refuse mine. If it plonks on my doormat i'll fucking burn it.

[Nihil]

32. Or both (i.e., biggest f-u AND most unfree democracy)

> If it plonks on my doormat i'll fucking burn it.

I'd be interested to see if any of the anti-RFID operations work on
the ID card ... neutralise it with one of the official merchandise
clearing machines or zap it in a microwave. That way, you can carry
your ID for photo-ID purposes (thus satisfying the "just a driving
licence" crowd) without any of the personal information or tracking
capabilities (thus frustrating Big Brother ... for a while) but you
can still claim that you don't know why the chip isn't working as
there's no obvious sign of damage (officer)!

My plan (so far) is
1) Don't voluntarily register (i.e., while the sheep joyfully trot along).
2) Once registration becomes mandatory, do so to avoid prosecution.
3) Simply leave the damn thing at home and carry my driving licence
(vintage, non-photo) or passport (non-RFID) until such time as I
judge my family to be at risk through my failure to conform.

Here's hoping for a suitable zapping strategy to become available
by the end of stage 3!

Nihil

[muriel_volestrangler]

33. I didn't think this was actually going to be RFID

but, rather, a contact-based chip.

But, if it is RFID, then use a tinfoil sleeve - as recommended by the EU.

I'd agree the thing to do is only get a card when forced to (which may mean renewing passports just before the scheme is introduced), don't register until it is compulsory (which shoulnd't be until 2013, even if all this crap does get passed), and do everything possible to encourage everyone to leave them at home. Make it clear it's only for special occasions (eg the first time you or your child uses the NHS - and, by the way, if the register starts at 16 years 3 months, will they register all children on the NHS in the old fashioned way anyway?) I still don't understand if a doctor's meant ot check the ID card with a scanner each time they treat you, when you register with them, or what.

[Nihil]

35. Could be ...

... that I'm getting mixed up with the Euro passport RFID, the Euro
visa RFID and the credit card contact-based chip?

Thanks for the link though, it led me to a lovely summary of the
UK ID card ...
see
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/05/complete_idcard_guide/
or
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/05/complete_idcard_guide/print.html
for the single page version.


Read it right to the end as there are some real gems in that article:

> So how do you nick <the 'unpeople' with no legitimate ID>?
>
> Well, you can do it via mechanisms the Home Office has specifically
> ruled out - making carrying ID compulsory, ethnically targeted stop
> and searches and the like, but we've ruled all that out, haven't we?
> So what it hinges on is the card really becoming the "key" to life
> in the UK, used "in daily transactions and travel." The more
> widespread its use, the more checkpoints there will be, and the
> fewer aspects of daily life that will be available to you without
> your using the card. It is currently possible to exist in the UK
> without a valid identity, but the more checkpoints there are, the
> narrower the options of the ID-less will be. So it's not just
> desirable from the Home Office's point of view that the British
> public love and use the card, it's absolutely vital. If they don't
> the whole thing doesn't work.

(my emphasis)

[bennywhale]

36. I'm just not going to have one. As i said i'll burn it. If that means

i can't get healthcare i'll take the government to the European court of Human rights and/or withold my taxes.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

31. I'm scared that it will make ID theft worse

I'm assuming all manner of details will be recorded on the same database. Imagine the damage that could be done if criminals, terrorists and others managed to hack in to the systems, or bribe someone in the civil service - they could get every single thing about you from this one system.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

37. Union blow to ID card scheme

Controversial government plans to introduce identity cards for every Briton were dealt a severe blow last night after the union representing the officials charged with implementing the scheme dramatically came out against it.

Unison, Britain's biggest union with 1.3 million members, used its annual conference to attack the proposals in a move likely to set alarm bells ringing in government.

The scheme cannot work without the full backing of the public sector workers who will administer and maintain the system. The union plans to outline members' concerns to the group of almost 100 Labour MPs who are affiliated to it.

If Unison is successful in making its case to MPs, it raises the prospect that the bill introducing the legislation could be rejected after its second Commons hearing on Tuesday.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1514969,00.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

38. Information Commissioner doesn't like the proposed system

Responding to the LSE's report,

LSE report savages ID card costs

... It added that the proposed National Identity Register "may pose a far larger risk to the safety and security of UK citizens than any of the problems it is intended to address".

Richard Thomas, the UK's Information Commissioner, said: "I welcome the report commissioned and undertaken by the LSE as a valuable contribution to an issue which engages significant data protection and privacy concerns.

"I have expressed my unease that the current proposal to establish a national identification system is founded on an extensive central register of personal information controlled by government, and is disproportionate to the stated objectives behind the introduction of ID cards.

"It raises substantial data protection concerns about the extent of the information recorded about an individual when the ID card is used in their day-to-day lives, and sparks fears about the potential for wider use/access to this information in the future."

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2138846/id-card-biometrics-lse

Radio 4 just had a section on ID cards - I think it had more comments from the commissioner, where he said there could be a far simpler ID card system, without the central database, because this system was designed to allow the government to track people, not for people to be able to prove their identity. It also included a great interview with Clare Short. She called Blair a control freak, and really laid into the plans. It's not online yet, unfortunately. I hope this puts a bit of backbone into the Labour MPs.

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. ID cards 'will reveal details of daily life'

Information commissioner warns of surveillance society
...
He claimed the government was planning to create an unnecessary data trail of when a card is checked against the national identity register. "This will show who checked it and when ... thus building up a picture of an individual's card use and a detailed picture from this of how they live their lives.

"The creation of this detailed data trail of individuals' activities is particularly worrying and cannot be viewed in isolation of other initiatives which serve to build a detailed picture of people's lives, such as CCTV surveillance (with automatic facial recognition), use of automatic number plate recognition recording vehicle movements for law enforcement and congestion charging, and the proposals to introduce satellite tracking of vehicles for road use charging."

He said retention of such information went beyond the five stated purposes of the bill - "national security, prevention and detection of crime, enforcement of immigration controls, enforcement of prohibitions on illegal working, efficient and effective delivery of public services".

"If we are to have an identity card, the information commissioner would like it to be a tool to assist individuals to demonstrate their identity when they find it useful," he said. "It should be a tool within the individual's control.
...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/idcards/story/0,15642,1516115,00.html

[bennywhale]

42. Charles Clark said today. "This will help protect AGAINST a big brother

society"

This would be funny if it weren't so serious. Can Clark see his irony in using Orwellian politico "double speak" to justify his Orwellian nightmare.

"Freedom is slavery" everyone

[D-Notice]

43. Exactly...

How can the govt having all of your personal details (inc current, alternative & previous addresses) not reduce the effect of Big Brother?

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. Key areas of concern in the LSE report

ID Cards: LSE says it's high risk & high cost, up to 19.2 billion


> Multiple purposes Evidence from other national identity systems shows that they perform best when established for clear and focused purposes. The UK scheme has multiple rather general rationales, suggesting that it has been 'gold-plated' to justify the high tech scheme. For example, the government estimates that identity fraud crimes may cost up to £1.3 billion a year, but only £35 million of this amount can be addressed by an ID card.

> Will the technology work? No scheme on this scale has been undertaken anywhere in the world. Smaller and less ambitious schemes have encountered substantial technological and operational problems that are likely to be amplified in a large-scale national system. The use of biometrics creates particular concerns, because this technology has never been used at such a scale.

> Is it legal? In its current form, the Identity Cards Bill appears to be unsafe in law. A number of elements potentially compromise Article 8 (privacy) and Article 14 (discrimination) of the European Convention on Human Rights. The government may also be in breach of law by requiring fingerprints as a pre-requisite for receipt of a passport. The report finds no clear case why the ID card requirements should be bound to internationally recognized requirements on passport documents.

> Security The National Data Register will create a very large data pool in one place that could be an enhanced risk in case of unauthorized accesses, hacking or malfunctions.

http://www.publictechnology.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=3139

[Taxloss]

50. Unless your details are deliberately leaked by disgruntled employees

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/3951945.stm

DVLA man helped animal activists

Dickinson used the DVLA's computer records to find the addresses
A vehicle registration official who gave drivers' addresses to animal rights activists has been jailed for five months.
Barry Saul Dickinson, 34, of Manor Forstal, New Ash Green, Kent, was convicted at Stafford Crown Court of misconduct in a public office.

He had enabled protesters to find people connected to a guinea pig farm in Staffordshire.

A police spokesman said information had been used to "terrorise" families.

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. A quote from Blair to remember

"I mean no government is going to start introducing something that is going to cost hundreds of pounds for people, that would be ridiculous."

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page7728.asp

Of course, by the time the cost has come to hundreds of pounds per person, Blair will have buggered off to the American lecture circuit.

[fedsron2us]

44. Passport applicants face grilling

More than 4.5 million people a year will have to go to an interview to get a new passport from the end of 2008.

The interviews are part of plans to replace traditional passport photos with high-tech biometric data such as face scans, fingerprints or iris scans.

UK Passport Service chief Bernard Herdan says 600,000 people will be interviewed by the end of next year.

The interviews will check people's identity with questions about their previous addresses and their schools.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4629545.stm

Just a taster of what is likely to come with ID cards. This crazy proposal to interview all new passport applicants is going to cost a fortune and will require an enormous bureaucracy to operate.

[D-Notice]

45. Better get the passport renewed then!

You are allowed to renew it early, aren't you?

[fedsron2us]

46. I think you have to 'lose' or 'damage' it in order to renew

Fortunately, my current passport will not expire until 2013.

[Oggy]

47. oh dear

mine apears to accidently been through the washing machine.

[D-Notice]

52. Mine too...

Pity, guess I'll have to renew it early

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. MPs narrowly back ID cards plan

Ministers have won a Commons vote over their controversial ID cards plan but their majority was cut from 67 to 31.

Tories, Lib Dems and a number of rebel Labour MPs are thought to have voted against the bill's second reading.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4632299.stm

[fedsron2us]

49. Government majority of 31 includes DUP votes

according to Andrew Marr on the BBC. If Clarke is going to have to rely on Paisley's unreliable support to get this legislation through then his position is weak. It will be interesting to see how many Labour MPs apart from the 21 known rebels either voted against or abstained.

[D-Notice]

51. Robin Cook voted in favour of it!

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2005-06-28&number=21&display=allvotes

It also says that all the DUP voted against it...

The only MPs who voted in favour of it were Labour MPs

There were 36 absentees apart from Sinn Fein (at the Trafalgar celebrations?):
Tory - 17
Independent - 1
Labour - 18

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. It would be interesting to know if all the absentees were paired off

Some must have been - they include 3 Labour ministers. I'm very disappointed in Cook. Is he angling for a return to cabinet under Brown?

When you get the SDLP, DUP, UUP, PC, SNP, Respect, Lib Dems and Tories all voting against a bill (possibly unanimously), you know there's something fundamentally wrong with it.

[fedsron2us]

54. Last time I listen to Andrew Marr

He should have stuck to economics. Still one interesting Irish angle was pointed out by one of the Labour rebels. Apparently citizens of Eire, who do not need a passport to enter the UK, will not have to carry identity cards under the proposed scheme. It appears only British citizens will enjoy that privilege. This whole policy just gets crazier and crazier.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/columnist/story/0,9321,1516971,00.html

[D-Notice]

55. Time for a challenge under the Human Rights Act

Nothing like a racist piece of legislation!

[D-Notice]

56. Not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere:

From the NO2ID newsletter:

David Davis, the Conservative Shadow Home Secretary said of the bill: "Such a vision was originally set out by a man called Blair who changed his name to Orwell and wrote a book called '1984'. It was supposed to be a warning, not atextbook."

They also mention this:

The LSE's costings for the scheme came under fire from both the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary who described the £300 card cost as "simply mad". However Private Eye on the 24th June reported that word from within the UK Passport agency "is that their own projections show the cost of ID cards to be, er, £300 per card."

And this: The cards will have to be updated every 10 years to stop forgeries http://management.silicon.com/government/0,39024677,39131512,00.htm

Bliar theatens to use the Parliament Act to force 'em through: http://tinyurl.co.uk/u1i3

[bennywhale]

57. New Labour's authoritarian obsession will be their downfall. This is goin

to be the biggest fuck up in living memory.

We must fight this. Starting now. I WILL NOT HAVE ONE OF THESE HORRIBLE LITTLE DEVICES OF CONTROL

viva la refusniks

[fedsron2us]

58. The joys of 'Oligarchical Collectivism' in Ingsoc

Ingsoc apparently came to dominance during a socialist revolution, but as The Party is constantly changing history it is difficult to tell precisely how it came about. Emmanuel Goldstein's book-within-the-book The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism (see Goldstein's book) describes the actual ideology of the Party as "oligarchical collectivism", stating that Ingsoc "rejects and vilifies every principle for which the Socialist movement originally stood, and it chooses to do this in the name of Socialism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingsoc

Sounds very much like Blair's vision for Britain.

When do the clocks start chiming 13.

[D-Notice]

59. I guess this means:

Inner Party: Cabinet
Outer Party: Backbenchers/other parties
Proles: general public

[muriel_volestrangler]

60. The spin doctors and special advisers are the Inner Party

I'm not sure if all the Cabinet count. Or maybe I'm just cynical, because I just got to see the repeat of "The Thick of It".

[D-Notice]

61. Wouldn't they be Minitrue?

After all, Alistair Campbell's job is to lie to the public about what a great job the Dear Leader's doin'

[D-Notice]

62. As no one's mentioned this

Panic in No 10 as ID card support collapses

Torygraph

A YouGov poll for The Daily Telegraph shows that backing for ID cards has plummeted from 78 per cent less than two years ago to 45 per cent.

Only one in 10 believes that the cards would be introduced efficiently while 84 per cent think they will bring "disruption and inconvenience".

Amid further signs of Labour disarray, it emerged yesterday that the Prime Minister had delivered a furious rebuke to Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary, for "going soft" on the fight against crime. Clarke "soft"? ID cards, control orders, banning protests w/in 1 km of Parliament, Drugs Act 2005, the banning-criticism-of-religion Bill.

He's taking the piss surely... Guess Blunkett'll be coming back...

See also Europhobia "The only way he could get tougher is sending out Brazilian-style death squads"

[bennywhale]

63. This is what happened in australia. Once the public realised the full

extent of the plan they went ape shit.

I hope this brings down that fucking authoritarian cabal.

[D-Notice]

64. Treasury study shows Brown's ID card doubts

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article297922.ece

The Treasury is launching its own study into the cost of identity cards amid growing signs that Gordon Brown may abandon the scheme if he becomes Prime Minister.

Despite the terrorist attacks in London, doubts are growing inside the Government about the cost and practicalities of the controversial proposal which is now being pushed through Parliament.

The Chancellor will resist any attempt by supporters of ID cards to use the London attacks as an excuse to speed up their introduction. Significantly, Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary, admitted yesterday that cards would not have prevented Thursday's bombings.

Is this why he insisted that the cards paid for themselves?

[D-Notice]

65. Identity Cards Act 2006

Yes, you read that right the "Identity Cards Act 2006" has already been passed (according to the govt).

From the mail-out from NO2ID, comes this link to the Register, which includes the following

The Home Office appears to have invented a £30 'Passport Lite' ... In any event, the relevant text, in the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Bill, was probably drawn up before the Government knew ID cards were in trouble. Section 25 of the Bill (listed on p. 14 of the PDF), Proof of Right of Abode, amends the Immigration Act 1971's list of the documents that can be used as proof of right of abode when entering the UK by adding "an ID card issued under the Identity Cards Act 2006 describing him as a British citizen."

As the Register also state "This is further proof that the Government regards Parliament as a tiresome formality", although as the Labour backbenches are stuffed full of careers MPs who never vote against the govt, this quote is not very accurate - the govt know that any Bill, no matter how bad, will be passed.

There's also some propaganda from the Home Office about why ID Cards will work & are neccessary for the UK, including the folllowing (see the film for yourself here (it's 15 MB!) or if you prefer, you can read a transcript)

"Public services are targeted by identity fraudsters", says the voiceover, going on to state how organised crime, 'terrorist support networks' and illegal immigration rackets are exploiting identity loopholes.

The National Identity Scheme will "address these problems", says the video, although the Home Secretary Charles Clarke has recently acknowledged that ID Cards would not have prevented last week's bomb attacks in London. Does this mean the video will be changed? Not fuckin' likely!

[bennywhale]

66. So the passport will still require fingerprints, Iris image etc eventually

That doesn't fill me with confidence. once the system is running function creep will ensure the citizen's database is operational soon after i fear.

But apart from that. Go Brown eye

[T_i_B]

67. Government to issue 'ID cards' to teenagers

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article299682.ece

Teenagers are to be issued with government smart cards that will offer them a range of attractive discounts - but will raise suspicions that they are being given ID cards under another name.

The cards will guarantee cut-price admission to public facilities and may even let them buy CDs. High-street stores may be encouraged to offer discounts to young people using the card. Conversely, sanctions will be implemented against those teenagers who are deemed to misbehave.

The smart card will be the most eye-catching item in the Government's long-delayed Green Paper on youth, to be published tomorrow. It was originally due to come out in October 2004. Margaret Hodge, who was children's minister until the election in May, is believed to have favoured an emphasis on improving youth services without threatening teenagers with sanctions.

The new children's minister, Beverley Hughes, who was forced to resign from the Home Office in 2004 after unintentionally misleading Parliament over visa fraud, was heavily involved in rewriting the paper to bring it into line with Tony Blair's campaign to end anti-social behaviour and instil respect.

[muriel_volestrangler]

68. Somehow, this sounds like a 'party card' from a communist regime

You know, wave your card at people to show you're one of the good boys, and you get benefits you wouldn't think are immediately linked. But misbehave, and your perks are withdrawn.

Strange, however, that they seem to think that teenagers need to be bribed to accept cards, while thoase of us who are older will have to pay to continue to be recognised as a British citizen of good standing.

Perhaps The Independent on Sunday has got hold of the wrong end of the stick - we'll have to see what actually gets published, and what the government spin on it is. But it sounds to me like another ill-thought out plan, born out of a desperation to get someone to carry ID cards around, so that other ones will get accepted as 'normal' later.

[muriel_volestrangler]

70. Some details now available

The opportunity cards will be available for 13 to 19-year-olds in the pilot areas - with an initial £12 worth of credits for everyone, which parents or local authorities could top up.

The government's discussion paper, Youth Matters, suggests such top-ups could be rewards for volunteering, attainment or attendance.

As a disincentive, "unacceptable and anti-social behaviour" would lead to the card being suspended or withdrawn.
...
The cards will have photographs and can be used as proof-of-age, but the ministers said they would not become "quasi ID cards".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4687203.stm

No, I can't possibly imagine that pubs would demand to see one of these cards from an 18 or 19 year old, as proof of 'good character', can you?

Spin alert - "Opportunity cards"! I think they've over-reached there - there's no way I can see that name catching on - like "community charge", it'll get called something like "goody card".

[Nihil]

71. (This should probably be its own thread really)

So, if I am following this correctly, anyone who registers for this
teenager-ID card will get £12 to compensate them for being part of
the state/police database?

If they "attain" something (what? how?) then they *may* get a reward.
If they "attend" something (what?) then they *may* get a reward.
If they are *caught* doing something anti-social then they may have
their card withdrawn and thus be left in the same state as they're
currently in (except for having received at least £12 in the meantime).

Unless I'm missing something here then the only definite benefit is
that the state get the positive ID of a teenager ... one that will not
be removed whether the teenager behaves or not?

Think I'll just give my son an extra £12 and tell him to stay away
from politicians bearing gifts ...

[D-Notice]

72. Well, after all

ID cards were originally called "Entitlement Cards"

[D-Notice]

69. Australia as well?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15965281%255E1702,00.html

Ruddock urges ID card debate

AUSTRALIANS, like the Government, would want to discuss the merits of a national identity card before coming to a decision on whether to adopt it, Attorney-General Philip Ruddock said today.

Prime Minister John Howard has put the idea back on the agenda in the wake of the London bombings, saying circumstances have changed since he opposed Labor's plan for a similar card in the 1980s.

Mr Ruddock said Australians would want to debate the pros and cons of such a card before taking an informed view.

A govt admitting there's "Cons" of having ID cards? WTF? THey're helping the terrorists win!

[demobrit]

73. ID cards

In relation to the propsed introduction of I D cards I suppose that they will make it compulsory to use it when traveling on Trains and Planes , when purchasing from shops in reality for every transaction
and task we have to do to live ,a very scary thought.

[fedsron2us]

74. Your future according to Michael Proudhon

To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality.

from "The General Idea of the Revolution in the Nineteenth Century"

[muriel_volestrangler]

75. welcome to DU, demobrit!

I see you found this "corner of some foreign field" fairly quickly :-)

[demobrit]

77. Thanks

:)

[Anarcho-Socialist]

76. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[demobrit]

78. I.D Cards

Thanks for the welcome :)

[D-Notice]

79. LSE's rebuttal to a rebuttal

Last month the Home Office responded (pdf) to the claims in the LSE's ID card report.

The LSE has now responded to their criticisms (see here for the full response) (pdf):

The HO's response rebuts aspects of the LSE report without providing alternative data (for example, on assumptions relating to population data, card loss and damage rates and the card replacement rates due to change in personal circumstances).

It is equally disappointing that the Home Office has chosen to disregard the vast majority of the LSE report. Comprehensive sections on identity fraud, policing, crime, national security, counter-terrorism, discrimination, international obligations and the UK IT environment have been ignored. Even within the two narrow areas that were chosen for rebuttal (cost projections and the alternative blueprint) 80 per cent of the relevant parts of the LSE report - some 25,000 words of analysis of costings and alternative approaches - are not commented upon.

The Home Office appears to have ignored the substantial analysis of cost assumptions published in the LSE report. As a result the rebuttals published in its response relating to cost estimates are largely irrelevant. We have, however, accepted a small number of criticisms of the alternative blueprint and will be considering these over the summer in the consultation phase for our proposals.

...

We note that in its response the Home Office has made a number of new claims for its identity scheme (e.g. that the checking of biographical footprints and updates of the national identity registry will be largely automated). These and other claims are not sourced in the attempted rebuttal. So we await further details before taking them into account in developing Version 2.0 of our report, due for publication in the autumn.

Seems like the Home Office were merely trying to gloss-over the LSE's report, without actually attacking their points...