As an NDP supporter, I am sorry.

[GirlinContempt]

I'm sorry people were tired of the Liberal party. I'm sorry you ran a shoddy campaign. I'm sorry we ran and took seats that would have gone to conservatives. Most of all, I'm sorry we even exist. I mean, if it wasn't for us, and the how many other now small parties? Oh well no matter. If it wasn't for US, people would love the Liberals. I mean, just love them. I don't even think the cons would get one seat. Really, I'm sorry we didn't join forces with your middle of the road party and alienate all the left wing voters. I'm sorry we didn't join forces with your party to give the people who're pissed off at you even MORE people to vote against.

I wish I could say it won't happen again, but the people from my party are all "We represent a segment of canadians, we win seats, we aren't going to stop because some whiny liberals can't manage their own party effectively."

Sorry.

[HEyHEY]

1. Why can't you guys just submit to the Liberals?

It's like you care about democracy and giving people a choice.

[GirlinContempt]

2. I've asked myself that question many times

But, I just can't convince them to drop to their knees for reprogramming. *sigh* I'm sorry. Apparently people WANT choices :shrug: Who knew?

[Minstrel Boy]

3. Let's all unite - that Michael Ignatieff is torturific!!!

Or Tom Wappell. Progressive voters need to be inclusive towards the far right and bigoted.

Now, John Manley - there's a Liberal who could stand up to George Bush and say "Ready, aye ready!"

Belinda, Keith Martin, Scott Brison - you're all welcome in our big tent. Don't forget the clowns and elephants on unicycles.

[GirlinContempt]

5. Finally someone who understands politics!

If you CALL it 'liberal' and you don't rock the boat, you ARE liberal. Why can't the NDP just realize that and join the Liberals? The name says it all, clearly *L*iberals are liberal. So why should Canadas last labour party NOT join up with them and cozy in to the warm bosom of the most stagnant party since the Canadian Cement Shoes Front?
Our tent will be big enough for all as soon as we throw out all those ideals that cause people to vote for us!

[V. Kid]

28. Don't forget Gordon Campbell he's a good Liberal!

And the federal Liberals had two of his buddiest, Sheila Orr and Brenda Locke run in BC. They're nice. And in Manitoba John Loewnen, another private health care advocate, who was a Manitoba PC MLA ran for the federal Liberals. Gee, that would be a lovely party if the NDP'ers just realized that it's their fault the Liberals lost, and that therefore they need to merge into the Liberal Party asap.

[glarius]

4. My what a gracious thing to say.

Just as the booing of the NDPers in the room when Layton made his speech last night congratulating Harper was so gracious.:sarcasm:
I have voted for NDP, Liberals, and the old P.C. in my time, by the way.

[GirlinContempt]

6. About as gracious as

Liberals claiming the NDP is at fault for their fuck ups. I know. See? The NDP and the Liberals, a match made in heaven.

[Roho]

8. I was there

It was about 5 or 6 out of 5 or 6 hundred and they were sharply rebuked by the warm applause that followed.

Much like the boos and sneers when Harper thanked Martin. There are assholes in every party unfortunately.

[glarius]

9. I'm glad to hear that it was only a few.....It sounded like the whole room

on TV.:)

[Roho]

10. one of them was standing right beside me.

I was very suspicious of him as he was quiet the whole time, not even clapping, then all of a sudden he starts booing when Jack congrats Harper.

Olivia, Jack's son Mike, and several of us close gave him the death stares that shut him up pretty fast. The rest were "positioned" at the back near the sloth like Mike Duffy and his network camera crew.

Not really saying they were plants but they sure weren't representative of the crowd. The crowd even applauded politely when Martin announced his resignation which was broadcast on the big screen.

[Swede]

7. What are you talking about?

I don't see any Liberals blaming the NDP. They have all been gracious in defeat as far as I've heard.

[GirlinContempt]

11. I guess you haven't been reading these forums

[Swede]

13. I've read several snotty NDP remarks,but none by Liberals.

Got links?

[GirlinContempt]

14. Oh surely I do

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=190x11414
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=190&topic_id=11267&mesg_id=11433

Theres a couple. Keep on readin' replies, you'll find em all over.

[V. Kid]

29. Ohh...more.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=190x10991

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=190x10940

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=190x10696#10748

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=190x10631

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=190&topic_id=10474&mesg_id=10474

including:

That little weasel has been attacking pretty much only the Liberals in this election. Martin is absolutely right. Has the NDP and Conservatives shared the same war room or what?
FALSELY branding the Liberals as corrupt has been a cornerstone of both thier platforms.

And did I mention this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=190&topic_id=10597&mesg_id=10597

But we NDP supporters this election should have realized that we we're being unpatrotic by not voting Liberal. So, the Liberals are good, the leader is great, we surrender our will as of this date. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah Liberals.

[GirlinContempt]

33. *beep* prepare to be absorbed in to the hive

[V. Kid]

34. I am ready to accept programming; my new designation is 9 of 14.

[SidDithers]

12. And I'm sorry you're so bitter...

and that you can't take a significant increase in NDP support for what it is, a tremendous accomplishment and a huge step in the right direction.

Sid

[GirlinContempt]

15. I can't?

Sorry?

[SidDithers]

20. Apparently not...

:shrug:

Sid

[GirlinContempt]

23. Oh wait, I forgot this in my OP

:sarcasm:

[glarius]

16. In the words of Rodney King..."Can't we all just get along?"

Really guys....:loveya:

[GirlinContempt]

19. *beep* you will be assimilated

[glarius]

22. You might find me hard to digest!

[daleo]

17. I am sorry that NDP success often comes with Conservative success

I don't mean that in a snarky way. It really is a political dilemma in this country, largely due to the first past the post system. With proportional representation, we would probably have Liberal-NDP coalition governments most of the time, which would accurately reflect the majority political culture of Canada. This is the key issue which must be addressed. Having Liberals and NDP tear at each other, rather than Conservatives isn't really helping matters.

FWIW, I am about as likely to vote Liberal as NDP in any given election, depending on local, national, and international circumstances.

[GirlinContempt]

18. I don't disagree

:)

[daleo]

21. I am glad we are in agreement

Who knows, now that the Liberals ox has been gored by the system they might decide PR isn't such a bad idea.

[enigmatic]

39. I gotta agree with this

Great post.

[SidDithers]

24. Nobody likes a sore winner...

especially when they come in 4th.

Sid

[GirlinContempt]

25. 3rd

thankyouverymuch

[ghostsofgiants]

26. Personally I say we should just abolish all this "democracy" nonsense...

Just set up a Liberal autocracy. Voting and choice is just silliness that gets in the way.

[ClusterFreak]

27. He he he....

:hide:

[V. Kid]

30. I know, when will people learn...

...as the right honourable Diamond Joe Quimby said, "Democracy, doesn't work". Or was that Homer Simpson?

[ghostsofgiants]

31. Actually it was both Homer and Kent Brockman.

Homer when Proposition 24 was passed and Kent Brockman when the bill to evacuate Springfield was defeated in congress.

[V. Kid]

32. Ahh, thanks.

I should know this, this is why I need the Libral Autocracy, they'll surely set up a reproramming facility where I'll know what I need to know.

[applegrove]

35. Nice to see a huge wedgie between the NDP and Liberals. Let's build

on that? Cause it works for the neocons.

:sarcasm:

I'll admit. I was furious when Layton said things like "that's odd" & "bizarre" to characterize Harper's statements on wanting to redo the judiciary in his image (because none of the current jurists represent his Canada).

The election is over. Thank god Harper didn't win a majority.

I do worry that the NDP in helping Harper govern will not have itself painted as accomplices.

I want both a strong NDP & strong Liberals. And it would be good if in future elections their leaders speak about the things they value most. Instead of being silent as Martin was for the first month, and Layton was for the second month.

[GirlinContempt]

36. I always forget people can't function without smilies

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=190&topic_id=11458&mesg_id=11519

[V. Kid]

37. Huh? Are you pretty much saying that the NDP and Liberals do share...

...the same values?

To simplify the NDP is a socialist party, the Liberals are liberal. It's not the same thing.

[applegrove]

38. The Liberals constantly steal the brightest social policy plans of the

NDP. The one issue they don't agree on is economics. Liberals don't want to destroy corporations.. they want them to thrive the same as small business and other forms of employment or wealth or life. NDP governs as fiscal conservatives when they get elected these days. Like the liberals - they are into slowing down the market during inflation - to share the pain with the stock market. Conservatives might go with hyper-inflation which the rich prefer. Actually - the elites prefer if the have nots of an economy fight inflation while the stock market roars alone - never a bump fo them. Liberals are not for that.

They do share many values, NDP and Liberals. They do. Charter of rights. Good government, peace, order. All of which are longtime Canadian values. The only triad. Which Harper just dumped.

[iverglas]

40. read his lips

Actually - the elites prefer if the have nots of an economy fight inflation while the stock market roars alone - never a bump fo them. Liberals are not for that.

Somebody here must be old enough to remember Pierre Trudeau in the flesh.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/features/democracy/minority/before-after.html

In 1979, the PC victory over the governing Liberals was largely due to public dissatisfaction over Liberal economic policies, particularly the introduction of wage and price controls. Trudeau campaigned against wage and price controls during the 1974 election campaign, and then implemented them after winning a majority.

His promise not to implement them was a major factor in the Liberals being elected / getting a majority.

I don't recall seeing a single price control during that time, but there sure were some wage controls. Sounds a lot like having "the have nots of an economy fight inflation", to me.

[Pierre Trudeau]

41. oh sure, blame Trudeau

I guess you can ultimately blame Trudeau for Stephen Harper as well, since it was the National Energy Policy that drove Harper from the Liberals in the first place (remember, he started as a Liberal).

:P

Ah, the remarks in this forum remind me of the futility of partisanship... the discussion of important issues often gets sidetracked by petty partisan sniping, usually about things not relevant to the topic, and on so many matters, the parties are not so different fundamentally. Really, in the grand scheme of things, they're not. The Canadian political spectrum occupies a minute sliver of the realm of ideas.

Now that this election is over, we should all take the opportunity to change the subject. Enough about the sponsorship scandal, the Liberals have been punished but still retain many voters' confidence; enough about the hidden agenda of the CPC and fears of what Harper "might" do, give him credit where it's due and hold him to account for what he says and does as PM; enough about the NDP and their "unholy" alliance, no one should apologize for voting for them. Finally, none of us should BLAME our fellow citizens for voting conservative: whether we understand it or not (what's the hurry, we can always blame them later if Harper proves a dud). The election is done, everyone has to work together now, and partisan finger-pointing only distracts us from focusing on important issues that are non-partisan and concern all Canadians. Each party has some good ideas to contribute, so we should expect them to get to work, listen to our concerns and represent us like they're supposed to do.

And I, for one, won't hold it against Jack Layton if he decides to form a coalition with the Conservatives (a couple Liberals crossing the floor could make it happen). I'll hold it against him if he screws up at it, but not for just trying.

OK that's my "put Canada first" homily for today. I guess I just feel this election was fought too much over things in the past (10-year-old sponsorship scandal, Harper's old speech, etc.), while too little attention was paid to what needs to be addressed today. And all of the partisan sniping obscured the more un-dramatic reality that we're not ultimately all that different at all, and that perhaps there are "Canadian Values" that do not belong to any particular party.


(sorry iverglas, I never addressed the wage and price controls... it's true PET changed his mind on that, and it's not like he was never wrong about anything. But he's still da man! :hippie: )

[applegrove]

46. Every country in the world was following debt policy and inflation.

Remember stag-flation? They had not developed the proper tools the world over to fix that. Canada tried wage and price controls.. but with US money supply gone haywire (and it may do that soon - again) all countries in the west were trying to find a way out - and only the US could lead it). Tool was a small recession to recalibrate...where even the stock market got put on hold. Wage & price controls? Really our interest rate was tied to the American one and they were supply shocked by vietnam and oil crisis. And so was the world. So don't go back to Pierre either. He was not responsible for monetary policy in the world. That was a US puppy. The stag-flation was caused by them. And the whole world learnt from that. Including our left liberal party.. the NDP. And our Liberal centrist party.. the Liberals. NDP are very pro-small business. Very pro-training. They are very pro-jobs. Very pro-fiscal soberness. That is how they govern, as all lefty parties do in this day and age. The world is changing. It is. Most political scientists - not pundits - looking from the outside - would put the NDP as a small "L" party. As they would have put the old progressive conservatives and of course the Liberals. We have a mixed market economy the same as every Western nation in the world. NDP would re-inforce that same as the liberals of today or the Progressive Conservatives of Yesterday. The new Conservatives of Harper will not. They are neocons. They are not Liberals or third wayers.

And as the the national energy policy - well - it isn't as if Alberta did not benefit from an influx of workers from all across the country when they needed them and need them, and then an outflux to other provinces when they didn't need them. Nationalizing energy is one policy tool that emerging countries use to spread the wealth till you have a credit filled economy that can stand on its own. The CPR, that railroad that went across the country and saved all that oil for Albertans.. that was funded by Nova Scotia & Quebec & Ontario. If they had not dug deep and gone into debt, by great grand-father built part of the tracks out west.. he was a contractor from Nova Scotia, and they all built the railway - all of them - at great debt to the country... well that is why Alberta is not American. Because it populated the area with Canadians. So at times - different parts of the country step up and build the nation. Only an American doesn't appreciate that. The new conservatives seem to be on the case since they plan compensation to the chinese who were so taxed at the time - and built lots of the railway. And perhaps the native people.. though.. when they looked at how the population of american natives went down to 250,000 at the turn of the century.. I'm sure they were happy to be genocided in a more Canadian way. Since those were the only two options at the time.


And Gomery is still important. Why the results of the final report will soon be out. I'm looking forward to that. Also too - to Stephen Harper looking through the books and trying to come up with another scandal.

Please - If I want to send an olive branch to the NDP after being so angry... I have that right. I usually vote for them.

Who would not think that the end of an election would be a time to link arms across false divides? Iverglass for sure. I always think I am channeling a real pundit when I talk to him LOL. But other than that... really - who doesn't want the heat of anger to be dissipated?

It is a very adult way to be. To have disagreements and then try and work it out from there. Seriously bro or sis. Seriously.. you don't think we should work it out on the left? Do you really feel that way? We should just walk into whatever divides us as Liberals?

Do you really believe that? That on a discussion board.. that we should not be working it out with those we follow and vote for after a contentious election? Day after day? For weeks on end. Until we have reached a satisfying & renewing relationship with all. So we will be together to fight the next round?

[iverglas]

50. "canada tried wage and price controls"

Sorry, you must have slept through those years. There were no price controls in Canada. None that any ordinary person ever saw. No controls on the prices at the grocery store, or the corner store, or the department store. No price controls.

I was addressing your statement:

Actually - the elites prefer if the have nots of an economy fight inflation while the stock market roars alone - never a bump fo them. Liberals are not for that.

by pointing out that this was EXACTLY WHAT the Trudeau Liberals of the mid-1970s were "for" -- and DID. Wage controls were tight, price controls were non-existent. The HAVE-A-LOTs of the economy fought inflation on the backs of everyone who had less, including the have-nots. Under a LIBERAL government, doing exactly what it had promised NOT to do. It lied, and it lied in the service of the wealthy.

Your odes of adoration for the Liberal Party appear to be based on something seen through a rose-coloured prism; wilful blindness is the only other explanation I can think of.

So don't go back to Pierre either. He was not responsible for monetary policy in the world.

"Pierre", the sweetie. He was responsible for what his government did, and a government that institutes WAGE controls with no corresponding PRICE controls is a government that stuffs the pockets of the rich while picking the pockets of the ordinary and the poor.

Recall that I voted for the Conservatives in that election, and that the Conservatives proposed to impose wage and price controls. I was not opposed to wage and price controls. I object to a party that fights an election on a promise not to impose wage and price controls, and then imposes wage controls. But hey, I guess it didn't break its promise.

Who would not think that the end of an election would be a time to link arms across false divides? Iverglass for sure.

Oooh, a loaded question! "False divides"? Yes, yes, that false divide between a Paul Martin who designs his country's tax code to help him stuff his pockets and the people who get stiffed for the lost tax billions. We have more to fear from a gaggle of moralizing halfwits who want to stop time and tide by outlawing same-sex marriage than from a gang of moral-less profiteers trying to run the country like they run their corporations, giving the little people just enough healthcare to shut them up and taking the rest to Bermuda. Yes, the gulf between me and them, that's a false divide. How could I have been so blind all these years?

I always think I am channeling a real pundit when I talk to him LOL.

You're channelling something. Could be sexist assumptions, maybe.

Seriously.. you don't think we should work it out on the left?

Seriously ... you folks can call the Liberal Party "left" (or try to steal that other time-honoured word, "progressive") all you like. Skunks by any other name smell as foul, and you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

That on a discussion board.. that we should not be working it out with those we follow and vote for after a contentious election?

Maybe you could try that line at freedominion. The fact that someone posts on this board doesn't mean that s/he is "left", or that anyone needs to work anything out with him/her. I'm not actually catching your drift, I suppose; who should be working what out with whom? If I have something to work out with whomever I voted for, I'll work on that, not on making nice with Liberal Party shills, should I run into any.

So we will be together to fight the next round?

Not if it involves pretending that the Liberal Party something it ain't. So sorry to disappoint.


http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/canada2005.php

Not precisely my own analysis, but close enough.

[MrPrax]

47. Now you mention it...

you left out the best part.

Nixon proposed it in the States in the '72 election, Stanfield proposed it here and Trudeau, then rode the decidedly 'anti-american' wave to victory and then, goddamn, did it anyway after about--what 4 months.

It worked better than Cretien's GST ploy, since that probably wasn't the reason they got elected anyway.

But still interesting that people think this fraudlent undermining of democracy is a noble feature of the Trudeau persona and the cunning political saavy of the liberal party.

Chretein bragged that he, during the lead up to '65 federal election, he had a Liberal buddy from Laval, go run and get the Conservative nomination. His buddy then proceeded to sit the campaign out.

"What an uncanny tacitian!", liberals cry.

Outside of liberal circles, of course, people rightfully call this tampering.

[applegrove]

48. Like we do not have two huge groups of media in Canada who tamper

every day? Don't know about Chretien. Politics is likely a cleaner business all over the western world than it was 40 years ago. But I guess starting & running a right wing newspaper at a loss for 15 years is considered okay.. because it is a "purely business decision" and because Canada was not blessed with one. So too someone forking over a shit-load of money to build a mega-church at the Toronto Airport (I guess the American pastors didn't want to bother with traffic). Those two things are fine. But politics - in an election? NOooooooooooooooooooo! Only Stephen Harper gets to euphemize his whole policy platform - when the Liberals talk about issues at the heart of the country.. that is a no, no.

Right.

One set of rules for the neocons. One set of rules for everyone else. I get it.

[Harper_is_Bush]

42. I'm sorry you're "leader" had to lie to win seats.

[GirlinContempt]

43. My are "leader"

:rofl:

Good job, with both grammar and attack.

[V. Kid]

44. Well, the leader is good, the leader is great, we surrendered our will...

...as of this date.

[V. Kid]

45. Paul Martin was a political genius.

None of his troubles, nor those of the Liberal Party, had anything to do with their own decisions, actions and results.

[Harper_is_Bush]

49. The truth of the matter is Layton had only two planks in his platform:

Repeat "Liberal corruption" over and over.

Repeat "we're for working families" over and over.

Next election, the first plank is quite a bit shakier, so no doubt the NDP seat count will sink.

[GirlinContempt]

51. The 'truth' of it is

that isn't true, and I think you know it.

Keeping those NDP seats will depend on what the party does, and what happens between now and the next government collapse.

[Harper_is_Bush]

52. What's not true?

You think they'll get more milage out of the "corruption" plank?

[Telly Savalas]

53. You know, I think you're right.

Those two things were indeed the only things Layton ever talked about during the election. We've all been mistaken. Thanks for enlightening us. In the future we'll be 100% devoted to the Liberal Party.

[Harper_is_Bush]

54. Thanks. I knew it wasn't just me..

..that only heard those two things come out of that walking infomercial.