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An illustrative thought experiment regarding Hyde and/or Stupak...

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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 02:48 PM
Original message
An illustrative thought experiment regarding Hyde and/or Stupak...
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 03:35 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
We are assured by the self-appointed politruks (A very useful word) that every set-back, sell-out and Hobson's choice in HCR is part of a glorious march toward an actual national health apparatus.

And I largely agree. I support even some hideously stupid and kleptocratic measures as part of getting our foot in the door.

Eventually this will all evolve into a national single-payer system that works.

That is the argument. Perhaps it is a bullshit argument designed to deceive the infinity credulous element of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party but if so, I am dumb enough to accept it.

Now then...

If the government paid no money toward any healthcare anywhere, ever, then a rule that government money cannot be used to terminate a pregnancy would be offensive but harmless. Nobody would lose out because no government money goes to any health procedure.

Add medicare and veterans health services. Most veterans are men and few people over 65 need abortions. So far the effect is minimal.

Add medicaid. Now we are getting into an area where abortion matters, and a class of people who are--by definition--too poor to pay full price for any surgical procedure, no matter how routine. The ban on government funding for poor women with little political clout is so heinous that it attracts some sympathetic private charity funding to make reproductive services available at subsidized rates. (Like Planned Parenthood.) The numbers are large but still only a fraction of the healthcare sector.

Now add an insurance reform plan meant to extend to almost everyone who cannot afford insurance...

Now add a mandate that individuals acquire insurance plans...

Now add government programs to make private plans cheaper and easier to access for the middle class...

Now add a single-payer system that applies to everyone...

As the government role in paying for and increasing access to healthcare increases the ban that started out as meaningless becomes more powerful.

Even if we play Devil's advocate and accept the argument that Stupak is "just Hyde" it is STILL an expansion of Hyde. The expansion of government's role that makes up the entire rest of the House bill is a de facto expansion of the abortion ban.

The government is getting involved, putting its thumb on the scale to favor and disfavor certain private plans. Participation in an exchange, for instance, is a benefit for an insurance plan. (Otherwise no company would offer any plan through the exchange.)

That benefit is NEW. It is created by the bill. That benefit is with-held from choice-friendly competitors.

To say that is not a new burden, a new restriction is bizarre. In a competitive setting a benefit to one entity is a handicap for all other entities.

Those who are surprised by the passions this issue is generating given that federal abortion funding has been banned since 1976 should revisit the history of passions regarding the slavery status of new states/territories before the Civil War. Just because slavery existed in Georgia did not mean that people were supposed to quietly acquiesce to its expansion into Kansas or Missouri.

None of us will see the elimination of evil, but we can certainly draw the line at its expansion! When new territories are opened--in this case, new frontiers in government involvement in healthcare--we have to fight the same old fights as new fights because they are new fights.

This does not require that one oppose the whole bill.

It does, however, suggest that one stop saying that the bill does not introduce new burdens, sanctions or stigmas to reproductive choice.


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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well written and reasoned. nt
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. thank you
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. And thank you for the positive feedback
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. I am happy you think that the Public Option is eventually going to lead further toward single payer
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 03:02 PM by emulatorloo
So it was really nice to read that.

I think we need to prioritize tasks

-- pressure the Senate so they will not include a similar amendment in their bill.
-- put pressure that Stupak/Pitt be removed during conference so it doesn't make it into the final bill

Practically speaking -- even though you note that Stupak goes farther than Hyde, I believe that a Senator might claim Stupak is redundant as a tactic to get it keep it out of the Senate Bill and make sure it does not appear in the final bill.

Once that is done, then figure out some way to mount a challenge to HYDE amendment.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. The senate is not usually where bills go to become more liberal
But if it works I'll be pleased.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. The Senate may pride itself on being "intellectually superior" to the House
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 03:07 PM by emulatorloo
Which is why a "this is dumbass redundant nonsense" argument might work as a tactic.

I dunno, I am just trying to think of a strategy that will help to get rid of this piece of junk

ON EDIT -- thanks for taking the time to write the OP -- it is really good work.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. I don't know about the efficacy of the public option but *something* will lead to single-payer
I may be long gone, but it's inevitable. Single-payer (or comparable national system) is like abolishing slavery or going off the gold standard... all countries do it eventually because the alternative is too destructive, but it's hard to say when each country gets around to it.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
Thank you.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. Beyond excellent. OP...
...and so true. You know, you drop a pebble.... Some people just do not sit back and see how bad this really, truly is.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful OP....:hi:
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. ...
:hi:
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. Excellent analysis. I hope someone in a position to influence Congress uses it.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. K&R
The whole debate is a logical fallacy. There is no point in the amendment to preserve the status quo because the reform bill did not amend it and in fact had strong language to back it up. The only purpose is to create new law and a new school of thought dictating that the government ever handling the money or having money in use for a totally separate purpose at the same location should be seen in the same light as government funding as we have traditionally known it aka giving funds to someone or some entity that will be spent on the services in question. This is new ground and ignoring it as such is dangerous thinking not only now but going forward even on totally unrelated legislation. We can't allow the erosion of rights snuck into need bills just to get them passed.
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
10. enjoy your Wedge issue. you will not stop Healthcare Reform.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Enjoy you life on my ignore list. Your lies and general hatefulness have lost all comedic value
:hi:
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. some people can't accept facts. they prefer hopped-up reactionary flailing.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. Well said. I think you settled it for me.
I've been trying to come to grips with the fact that federal funding has been banned for some time with this amendment.

You put this in context for me.

Thank you.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. thanks. Nice to know
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
17. It Is Beyond Odious And We Must Not Let Up Intil It Is Stripped
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 07:27 PM by Beetwasher
I predict it will not be in the final legislation.

Good post!
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