Whether you are a blind "Obama basher" or a "kool aid drinking Obama worshiper." . .

[wndycty]

. . . it is time to change the rhetoric.

As an Obama loyalist I cringe when he is criticized by progressives and I ALSO cringe when there is no tolerance for criticism of him. Folks its time to STOP your bickering and change your rhetoric.

When Obama does a good job we should celebrate it and when he f's up (WHICH HE WILL DO OFTEN) we need to hold him accountable, but again we need to change the rhetoric. What is happening is not diversity of opinion, but just intra-partisan counter productive name calling.

[AllentownJake]

1. Carry over from the primary

Some people thrive on the fighting.

[LostinVA]

42. No it isn't, except for about ten people

[mkultra]

49. well, who are the other nine then.

[mia]

2. The question is...

Does President Obama have courage?

[AllentownJake]

4. Why is it hard to believe he did what he thinks is right?

[vaberella]

6. And hence lies the difference.

We have those who cry "coward" and all this is about "courage." That's already something that makes my blood boil. The second is "he's a corporatist" so everything he's done to help the common man all this time and calling to get rid of tax havens...all crap and just him following corporate America. He can't win...no matter what and the personal attacks annoy the hell out of me because it reminds me of RW talking points coming from the other spectrum though. The RW call him coward and rather than corporatist he's a socialist. Same crap.

[mia]

9. He shouldn't care about labels. We elected him to do right.

He (and his advisers) seems to be more concerned about winning in 2012, or solidifying the Party. He has a window of opportunity to help save our country and to help guide humanity along the right path.

[Clio the Leo]

11. Yeah, but we elected a pragmatist .......

.... and to the pragmatist "practical" sometimes overrules any vague, idealized notion of "right."

[vaberella]

12. You care about labels though.

Secondly...he's done right. You just want him to do what you want and THINK is right. Assuming of course that what he has done is wrong and NOT right. You think what he is doing is about winning a damn election in 2012? The man said on national television several times that if the economy fails that we'll have the chance to vote him out of office in 2012. And you think he's trying to save his position, he's clearly put his position on the line countless times...so save me this self-serving crap kick you think he's on.

He's going on the right path and completely changing things as he goes along. Over pictures all this damn drama..when he's releasing files and has released formerly classified files...but it's the pictures that matter so damn much. How morbid?! Give me a break. And all of you think that he's serving his best interest because he had a few meetings. The man said clearly that he listens to all concerns and makes the best possible decision he can based on all that information. I also think he's thoughtful and considerate as well as sincere in his beliefs. So far he has not done anything to deny his duty. He never even said he wouldn't release the files indefinitely as we all know he can. If you care about the pictures, several of them are already on the net...I've seen them.


If some of your concerns is the tribunals...he's never flip-flopped on that position and has stayed true to his position since 2006, there's a video if you need more proof. This was something he wanted done from the beginning and he's getting it done at the same time revamping the whole thing.

I think much of the damn outrage is because people want to be outraged. However, logically thinking there should be nothing that he has done that should warrant the amount of name calling and attacks on HIS PERSON. One thing is taking out his policies but you went after the man and not the policy.

[mia]

16. "attacks on HIS PERSON" ?

He's THE PRESIDENT, for God's sake. Of the United States of America. He's my president.

So why is Dick Cheney still calling the shots? We don't want the world to see these photos because we want to maintain the image that the USA is always good. No, we were wrong. We were wrong to torture in a way that broke international laws. We were wrong. We are culpable, and SOMEBODY needs to admit it. President Obama needs to take a strong stand. Humanity needs to see what mankind is willing to do and to STOP IT.

[vaberella]

17. Don't vote for him, in 2012 since you believe all that.

Have no trust in him...it works better that way for you. So when 2012 comes around, don't vote for him if it makes you feel better. And hope and pray that there is someone who will able to bypass all the red tape to meet each and all your demands---because they are so important and soooo righteous.

Because at this point, you've already decided he's Cheney's other half and there's nothing beyond that.

[mia]

20. Congratulations

You've got the message down pat. I'll stop reading, thinking and evaluating my president now.

[vaberella]

21. Did I say to stop...criticize all you want...but you've

basically equated him to Cheney. What more is there for me to discuss with you? You'll always criticize him because of what you think he represents. End of story for me.

[mia]

23. "basically equated him to Cheney"? You like to leap, don't you?

All I'm asking is for President Obama to be the best that he can be. I believe that he can do what is right. You don't. You just want to silence any questions.

[vaberella]

25. What do you expect me to infer from this?

So why is Dick Cheney still calling the shots?

To you Obama is not in charge, but Dick Cheney. In essence O is in cahoots with DC or similar to him, since DC is not in charge but O is---however what he does seems to be under DC authority.

I don't believe he can do it right?! :rofl:

[mia]

26. Silly boy, or is it girl?

Can you read?

[vaberella]

27. Edited.

I'm done with this conversation because I'm humoring a petty discussion at this point. I'm too damn old for that. But don't let me stop you from carrying on.

[mia]

28. Let's remember your unedited post.

Obviously not

"I just quote and write."

[quickesst]

52. "Did I say stop....criticize all you want"

"You just want to silence any questions."

My take:

"No, I don't want to silence any questions."

"See, I told you so. You want to silence any questions."

"One more time. I don't want to silence any questions."

"Well, that proves it. You just want to silence any questions."

The waterboarding of logic has begun. Thanks.
quickesst

[LooseWilly]

22. Uhh, I thought we were being called upon to change the rhetoric...

... I think you're villifying, dude.

Criticism of Obama's decision to not release the photos... and your response is essentially to dare a critic to vote for someone else....

tsk tsk. Bad big tenter... that rhetoric is so April...

[vaberella]

24. Hmmm...

There's criticizing and exclaiming that O is taking orders from Dick Cheney...to me that's not criticism. That's basically stating you think Obama is in cahoots and supporting a criminal. A man who led to the death of billions of people and tortured others. Sure, to some it's healthy criticism. To me that's crossed the line and goes into "whatever" territory. When someone equates the two to be on the same plane as another thread even suggested with "Bush-Obama" I'm basically done with it. I find it reaching and beyond the pale. Hence the reason I said what I said. It may seem over the line, but their statement seemed over the line to me. Anyway the poster did say that O only cares about 2012, so if that's all he cares about, then no decision will be liked. So the discussion ends up falling apart in my eyes.

[LooseWilly]

31. Mia didn't actually say that O is taking orders from Cheney, you just projected that...

Mia actually said "... why is Dick Cheney still calling the shots?" You can interpret that literally, but the rest of Mia's post didn't support such an interpretation. Rather, the rest of the post suggested that O, in deciding not to release photos, was acting in consonance with Cheney's dictates. And, since Cheney has called for the photos to not be released, and Obama decided not to release them... well, Obama is acting in consonance with Cheney's dictates.

If you want to then interpolate that to mean that Obama is doing Cheney's bidding, that's your choice. If you want to believe that that is what Mia said so that you can ignore her, that is your prerogative... but it is not strictly correct. The rest of the post was simply an exhortation that Obama shed some light on and/or investigate torture allegations. What I would call healthy criticism.

Your sudden jump then to another thread: "When someone equates the two to be on the same plane as another thread even suggested with "Bush-Obama" I'm basically done with it." is dishonest... you're using another thread to justify dismissing Mia's post... as if they were the same post.

And Mia never said anything about O only caring about 2012. You are the one who leapt to taunts that she should vote for someone else in 2012.

As I said... tsk tsk... bad big tenter. If nothing else, you should really try to refrain from these sorts of associative pseudo-logical leaps in a thread that calls for a change in the rhetoric.

How about explaining why Obama is right not to release the photos. How Mia is wrong in thinking that Obama should be willing to stand up and admit that the US was wrong... that the US tortured... and that the US is going to do something about righting those wrongs?...

[redqueen]

37. "Cheney is calling the shots" is ridiculous.

If one intends to convey the idea that Obama's reversal on the release of photographs gives *the appearance* that Cheney is calling the shots, then say that.

To say that "Cheney is calling the shots" conveys the idea that Obama is taking orders from Cheney, and it is highly offensive. And stupid as hell, as well.

[lunatica]

46. I think Mia is saying Cheney is calling the shots in the media

Not that Obama is taking orders from him. And unfortunately Cheney is pulling the media strings. He's come out more and sucked all the oxygen out of the room more since January than he did in the entire 8 years he was VP.

[Creideiki]

15. We've known all along he was corporatist

What part of Democrat from Illinois didn't say that to you? We've had precisely two non-corporatist Democrats in my life time--Durbin and Paul Simon. (And, yes, Hillary is also Corporatist--again, what part of Democrat from Illinois doesn't say that to you? And, yes, for those that did not know, Hillary is from Illinois. She grew up eight miles from where I grew up.)

What we didn't know was that he was a coward. Sorry if that makes you cringe. Again, start paying attention.

This isn't to say that he has done everything wrong. There are some things he's done right, and a lot of things he's done wrong. No, Hillary wasn't my choice. No, I didn't want McCain to win. Sorry, the Democrats have broken the coalition. It's not too late to repair it, but it's going to take more than soft words. The leadership will have to take hard actions.

The Marines describe two types of courage: physical and moral. Right now Obama is showing a striking lack of moral courage. It's really discouraging. I had hoped for better. But as they say, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...we can't get fooled again." I can't support or follow cowards when my entire life is built around moral courage.

Some people will be upset by that. I'm truly sorry. Start holding people accountable. Start making sure Democratic leaders do the right thing. Start insisting that they keep their promises.

[grantcart]

19. yes and it was quite clear that he was a committed corporatist when after

finishing law school he went on to clerk for the SC and then went on to make a fortune at Wall Street before moving to IL and doing a little pro bono work.

Now if had just gone back to Chicago and worked with poor people we would have known that he cared more about people than corporations.

[Creideiki]

29. The amount of money that he took in campaign donations from

hedge fund managers...

[grantcart]

30. exactly he got 99 % of his money from business executives who paid

the maximum $ 5200 and there were about 8 guys who donated $ 10 a month.

Corporatist when he clerked at the Supreme Cour

Corporatist when he worked on Wall Street

Corporatist when he based his campaign funding on bypassing the people and collecting primary from a few rich folks.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mia]

7. Then I question his thinking.

I know that he is smart enough, if not brilliant. I believe that he won't stand up to what is right.
He's too much about politics and not enough about principles. He should assume that he has 4 years to do what is right.

[vaberella]

13. Fine, then don't vote for him in 2012.

Since that's all you think he cares about.

[mia]

18. "all" = "more" ?

Surely you have something better to say.

[rwheeler31]

3. We are the ones we have been waiting for.

Who else is gonna push him to do his best for the country?

[wndycty]

5. Must he do everything we expect him to do for us to believe he is doing what is best

for the country?

[rwheeler31]

8. Well I will let him off on B ball other than that yep.

[Clio the Leo]

10. Ok, but can we drop the "often" part?

He will f up .... sure ..... but he will NOT do it "often."

he's NOT this dude.......

eh .... you know who I'm talking about, I dont even need to post his picture.

The apparent fact thad he said he'd release the photos before he saw them seems a bit odd ..... but then man does NOT f up "often." ;)

[Demit]

14. Your post title reminds me of the old saw, "There are two kinds of people in the world:

those who think there are two kinds of people in the world, and those who don't."

[wndycty]

34. LOL

:kick:

[livefreest]

32. this is needed

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[ecstatic]

35. But it's never "Obama is wrong"

It's always "Obama is a coward! Obama is a liar! Obama is like Bush!" I'm mature enough to have a discussion with people I disagree with, but I can't tolerate character attacks. If someone wants to respectfully disagree, that's fine. But when mud is slung, I will sling it right back!

[wndycty]

36. Exactly!

Thank you very much

[redqueen]

38. Yep.

And when the mud is slung back, we're "trying to silence them".

*sigh*

[HopeOverFear]

40. Exactly, Far left is just as bad as the far right

I'm sick of that shit.

[LostinVA]

43. Except there are no "Far Left" (nice term) posters on here

[La Lioness Priyanka]

48. so you think his postion on gay marriage is just wrong and not cowardly

because i think the lot of them have a cowardly position. i am not some "far left crazy", i unlike YOU just don't have all my civil rights.

[redqueen]

50. There is a difference between calling a position cowardly...

and calling him cowardly.

That is the subject of this thread.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

53. to me, he is cowardly as are most other imp dem leaders. i have no issues stating it

and i think calling me fringe left is just stupid.

[scheming daemons]

47. Bingo... that's the problem.

It's never simply "I disagree with him, and I'm going to say why."


It's the hyperbole. The Obama-is-Hitler crap.

[BlooInBloo]

41. Thankfully, there aren't any here who have "no tolerance of criticism of him"...

You're just making shit up.

[AspenRose]

44. 5th rec from me

You DO realize that we Democrats like to argue, right? ;-)

It just gets heated sometimes. Thank you for your sanity and common sense.

[Norrin Radd]

51. When the bedbugs come down with the swine flu...

that'll bring us together.