Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Justice

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 12:46 PM
Original message
Justice

{A} "Without justice, there can be no peace. He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it."
--Martin Luther King, Jr.

One of the most important issues that will face the Obama administration will be how it approaches the questions regarding the alleged crimes committed by members of the Bush administration. This appears to involve members of the Department of Justice, as well as both VP Cheney and President Bush himself.

The legal issues involved have been discussed on such programs as MSNBC’s Countdown and Rachel Maddow Show. There have also been interesting discussions on political web sites, including the Democratic Underground. In those discussions, it has been noted that investigations and possible trials could divide the country. Indeed, there appears to be a divide within the democratic party, between the progressive/liberal wing, which favors pursuing legal action, and the moderate/conservative wing, which opposes such actions.

One of the fascinating aspects, in my opinion, is that members of the moderate/conservative wing have attempted to use the examples of Gandhi and King to support their claims that people need to "forgive and move forward." Looking to Gandhi and King’s teachings is a good thing; both men called upon the best within individuals in order to heal the worst within society. Let’s take a closer look.

{B} "Goodness must be joined with knowledge. Mere goodness is not of much use, as I have found in life. One must cultivate the fine discriminating quality which goes with spiritual courage and character."
--Mahatma Gandhi

Mohandas K. Gandhi was many things: a barrister by trade, a political activist, an economic socialist, and a religious leader among them. Although he is most commonly remembered for his role in the larger social events in India, it may be useful to focus here on some of his teachings for individuals.

Gandhi recognized that a key to unlocking what he called the love force came by way of forgiveness. A wonderful study of this part of Gandhi’s message is found in Thomas Merton’s 1964 book, "Gandhi on Non-Violence." In it, Merton notes that one of the major stumbling blocks to social justice is found in people’s rigid belief systems, which too often hold that "sins" or crimes are unforgivable. He explains how, for example, Hitler believed that certain "sins" could never be forgiven; and surely Hitler stands as the opposite in human potential from Gandhi.

The inability to forgive is closely associated on an individual level with the desire for revenge. This desire for revenge is at the root of the numerous "blood feuds" that we see in places such as the Middle East today, and which surely are the cause of many of the most horrible injustices found in human society. More, the inability to forgive others translates into an inability to forgive one’s self, and in this sense, it definitely prevents the individual from "moving forward."

Yet this should not be taken as Gandhi’s endorsing individuals not taking personal responsibility for their actions. The transformation of the individual, and of society, demands that people do take responsibility. The combination of taking responsibility and forgiveness is necessary to make the parts that are fractured by "sins" and crimes whole.

More, Gandhi spoke harshly about those who fail to take actions (to "do the right thing") because of cowardice. (See Merton, page 36) The failure to take actions for social justice, because one feels the "odds are against them," which simply means they are afraid to risk failing, should never be confused with Gandhi’s nonviolent philosophy. It never results in society moving forward. The obvious example in this context would be the failure of democrats in Congress to move to impeach President Bush and VP Cheney, a move that progressive and liberal democrats at the grass roots level recognized could help to end the administration’s violent foreign policy, and anti-Constitutional domestic policy.

{C} "We must not become bitter; nor must we harbor the desire to retaliate with violence."
--Martin Luther King, Jr.

The above quote is taken from King’s eulogy for the four girls who were killed by a bomb while attending Sunday school at the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, on September 15, 1963. When he said that people should not become bitter, nor seek to retaliate violently, he was speaking on an individual and group level. Yet he was not attempting to promote the idea that the matter should be dropped when those four coffins were placed in the ground. He did not intend to say that people should simply forgive the murderers, and move forward.

When King was participating in the civil rights struggle, he was advocating justice. He recognized the differences between what he called just laws and unjust laws, and he was willing to be incarcerated for violating unjust laws to promote his cause. He also spent a considerable amount of time and energy in lobbying three administrations for proper law enforcement to protect black citizens, and to insure their Constitutional rights. He recognized that just laws, properly enforced, helped to promote social justice.

{D} "The future will depend on what we do in the present."
--Gandhi

The Obama administration should conduct investigations into the possible criminal actions that resulted in torture, suffering and deaths, and violations of the Constitution. If the Department of Justice finds evidence – and it certainly appears clear that they will if they look – then they should prosecute those who violated the law. This should be done not out of bitterness, nor a desire for revenge, but rather for the sake of justice. It is only possible to move forward to a more peaceful future if we insure justice today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you for this thoughtful piece.
You've explained what I fail at consistently when someone comes back at me with the idea that revenge or getting back at the Republicans is my motive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. One difficulty is that
many people project their own feelings, and assign their own motivations, to others: hence, a call for justice is interpreted for a demand for revenge. In a sense, a Department of Justice investigation would bring to the surface some deep divisions -- but they already exist. It's better to address them openly and above board, which can include heated discussion, but which definitely requires respecting the rule of law being applied to everyone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Another is
That quite a number of people believe that revenge and justice are one and the same.

-Hoot
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. Even the "Truth & Reconciliation" processes in South Africa demanded admission and repentance.
There can be no Justice without responsibility and no forgiveness where responsibility is denied.

I've repeatedly asserted that OUR failure to impeach, remove, indict, convict, and imprison those responsible for the commission of the worst of crimes -- crimes against humanity, violations of the public trust, crimes against the Constitution, and war crimes -- makes us a nation of cowards and criminals. All of us.

Of the two -- cowardice and criminality - the former is the worse, condemning even future generations.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Right.
I don't think that anyone seriously thought that the Bush administration's Department of Justice would investigate and bring charges against anyone. Several members were as corrupt as anyone else in the Bush administration, though perhaps not as capable. Still, there came a point where a significant number of DoJ officials were prepared to resign, to protest OVP activities -- and President Bush was not even aware of their discontent.

The Congress had the authority and the ability to hold the administration responsible for their crimes and abuses of the power of office. This brings us to the definition of cowardice. A tiny mouse that quivers in fear of a large cat is not a coward, for it lacks the power to do anything to the cat. But a large cat that quivers at the sight of a tiny mouse is, by definition, a coward. In the past four years in particular, that sums up the Congress, with few individual exceptions.

The years 2004-2008 will be remembered for the crimes of Bush-Cheney, and the cowardice of Congress.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. K&R for the H20 man!
Nice to see such a beautifully done OP ~~ but then that is what your contributions are all the time!

:hi:

I am in total agreement in particular with the last section in regard to the Ghandi quote. The prosecutions MUST go forth for the sake of justice. There is a lesson to be learned and some have not learned it: Torture is wrong and it against the law.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Thank you.
No person should be considered above the law. It's really that simple.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rainbowreflect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
Excellent points!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Thanks.
Both Gandhi and King provided us with good examples of how to approach the struggle for social justice. It's up to us to either put those lessons into practice, or to ignore them, and hope that time alone will somehow move us in the correct direction.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. There ... that'll put this at the top of the recent 'greatest'.
Edited on Wed Jan-14-09 03:11 PM by TahitiNut
I rarely 'recommend' ... but your threads, my friend, almost always warrant it. (I guess it helps that we so often agree.)

:silly: :fistbump:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. Very good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. Where have you been? You sir have been missed
It has been nutty around here. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. It has indeed
been a strange time on DU, since the November election. I do tend to read a few threads many days, but have cut back in my level of participation, because there is too much nonsense here. At my age, I take little pleasure in arguing for the sake of arguing, and am much more interested in more productive use of my time and energy.

For example, I have been focusing on encouraging the Obama team to have people at a higher level take the time to "listen" to people at the grass roots level. During the campaign season, I had asked three DUers if they minded if I passed one of their OPs on to an associate, who would then pass it on to someone rather high up in the campaign. There are good ideas and valuable information found on this forum -- though too often these days, they do not attract the attention here that the hostile OPs/threads do. I think that it is a better investment of my time to focus on attempting to increase the communication between the Obama team and grass roots, at least for now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Good idea and a good and useful use of one's time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
7. K and R


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. Thanks. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dennis Donovan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. Without Rule-of-Law applicable to ALL, there cannot be a lawful society...
Recommended. Great post, H2Oman.:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. If the rule of law
does not apply to everyone, then there really is no justice. The prosecution of crimes should in no way be based upon "popularity," or if a group of people take offense to the prosecution of someone who broke the law.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
10. "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
Certainly Martin Luther King, who very publicly spoke out against the injustice of the war in Vietnam so eloquently one year prior to his assassination, would be the absolute worst example of someone philosophically capable of capitulating to the Criminal Administration, or turning the other way in denial.

Such a stance should be antithetical to anyone genuinely committed to social justice. On the more specific issue, I believe this quote from Vincent Bugliosi narrows down what the ideal goal of justice for Bush should be:

"I hope that at some time in the near future a courageous U.S. attorney general, U.S. attorney, state attorney general, or district attorney in America who is committed to the rule of law and who has dedicated his career to enforcing the law fairly against all who, big or small, violate it, will hear the cries for justice from the graves of the thousands upon thousands of men, women, and children who had their lives violently cut short because of the lies of a man who smiled through it all. And that, with a sense of uncompromising righteousness, he will take the ample case I have laid out in this book before an American jury to let them decide whether George W Bush is guilty or not guilty of murder, and if so, what his punishment should be."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. While this is off topic,
the other night I was watching clips of President Bush's last press conference. The manner in which he tried to twist the truth, especially when it came to the lack of federal response to Katrina, stood out. At one point, he raises his voice, and strikes the podium, obviously attempting to intimidate the journalist who dared ask him such a pointed question.

His response reminded me of another person that is, from time to time, shown on some of MSNBC's numerous "true crime" shows. This little man is incarcerated for crimes he ordered in the late 1960s. He still denies any responsibility, and when journalists asked him pointed questions, he was likely to respond by raising his voice, and trying to intimidate those who caught him in a lie.

I was thinking of your post regarding your meeting with Vince Bugliosi. And I found myself wondering if Mr. Bugliosi has noticed the similarities in their manner of responding to tough questions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SalviaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Thanks n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
12. Is best served cold.
A couple of smart guys there, waterman. Just like you are.

I'll have to change my vehicular message:


Any Ideas? I was thinking "Prosecute War Crimes"

-Hoot
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
34. The most recent
bumper sticker that I've put on my vehicle is the "I'm A Constitution Voter," from the ACLU. I wonder, sometimes, what people think -- if anything -- about it. I have an image of some people thinking, "That's terrible! Why can't he just keep that to himself?" But I think most people probably get it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
17. K & R!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #17
35. Thanks n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
19. My thinking
is that the Obama Administration will not so much actively pursue criminal investigations, as it will not hinder investigations.

This Administration, after all, has very pressing domestic issues that need immediate attention. But, should a Senate committee, for instance, decide to begin investigations, there will be, IMHO, no push back from them.

If I am right, this will be a stark contrast to the stonewalling that the Bush administration engaged in.

I think we will be moving toward transparency in government during the next four years.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EraOfResponsibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
33. Dear God I hope you're right n/m
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
20. "We must not become bitter; nor must we harbor the desire to retaliate with violence."
H2Oman, you rock.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
39. Sometimes when I discuss
this general topic with others, I'm told that it is human nature to become angry and to retaliate. This is open to question: people much smarter and wiser than I, who have spent a great deal of time examining "human nature" -- including their own -- have found that becoming angry is indeed an emotion that we all experience, but that the desire to retaliate is optional. There are other options for directing that same energy. Cultures tend to make violent retaliation more "acceptable" in some cases, as we see when we look at the world today. We can change our own culture, but it has to be done on an individual level. And when we change, everything around uschanges.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
24. Always brilliant

The Obama administration should not investigate Bush, Cheney or Gonzalez.


They should investigate crimes, establish facts and let the facts lead them to criminal complaints.


Build from the bottom and let the investigation progress accordingly.


It would not suprise me to see that Bush never committs an actual crime as they have cut him out of any paper trail.


Start at the bottom and work up, getting people to flip as they go up the pyramid.


Approaching it in this way is not revenge, its law enforcement.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. I agree.
I think that in the majority of their activities, both Bush and Cheney were careful to abuse the power of their offices, rather than commit crimes. Hence, Congress had the responsibility to take action, rather than the DoJ. However, there are a couple of exceptions, as Vince Bugliosi has accurately pointed out.

Time will tell what action the Obama administration will take.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
28. Always so thoughtful, I love your posts H2O Man
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
41. Thanks!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. That is wonderful!
Love the track
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
29. "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice”
Edited on Thu Jan-15-09 12:05 AM by Me.
I believe that for the sake of the future of this country the oh so obvious crimes must be investigated for we are entering a repetitive cycle which comes around every time there is a Con pres. Pres. commits crime and a deal is made to let him off. The next one commits even greater crimes. This will continue until someone is held responsible. The 'we shouldn't look to the past' statement by Biden was unfortunate. It also bothers me that the PE has said, as he did in the primary, that he doesn't think crimes were committed. I say investigate and then we'll know for sure. Doing nothing will be like giving carte blanche to all future admins that have criminal inclinations. And for God's sake go after the people at justice who lied under oath and broke civil rights laws.

The people in this country don't believe that the justice which metes out punishment to them is the same one that judges the rich and powerful. Madoff sits in a penthouse and * is moving to a lavish home in Dallas.

Sooner or later the powers that be are going to have to face up to their responsibility; repentance/penance by the criminals, prosecution by those who should. The moral universe, sooner or later, will come calling and at that time, both will be judged for what they did or didn't do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
30. They must first admit crimes were committed. Let them answer in a court of law.
Edited on Wed Jan-14-09 11:44 PM by AtomicKitten
There is a concerted effort on the part of the wingnuts in asserting that torture is okay in special cases. You hear it all over the MSM.

Bullshit. Bullf*ckingshit. It's against the Constitution and International Law. It is against the Geneva Conventions. It is not now nor has ever been legal.

And that is precisely why President Obama must not equivocate. He must direct his Justice Department to investigate and prosecute. Both Cheney and Junior have straight-up admitted their guilt this week.

It is President Obama's duty to put this right in order to reclaim America's soul.

K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
31. Beautifully written, H2O Man.
Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
32. Justice should be the first priority & highest goal of the rule of law.
:kick:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
36. Excellent column as always. Hits the point eloquently. K & R
I also think the financial crimes are important to prosecute, if we expect to restore any confidence in our economic system. Confidence is crucial in any functioning economy, especially ones like ours that desperately need systemic changes.
IMO if our economy was deliberately sacked that is a civil rights crime as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. I don't think it was deliberately sacked, but negligence can also be a crime if you
are undermining laws for whatever reason including greed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Well, S&L Bailout, BCCI, and Iraq tell us they were at the very least undermining laws for greed,.
All that precedence tells us at least that much, so criminal negligence would be the absolute minimum suspicion to investigate.

But I have never bought the "incompetent" meme so I am leaving the option wide open for intentional sacking. Nothing like a sacked economy to bring about radical political change, which even they claim to pursue.

We'll see.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
38. I think the economy WAS deliberately sacked, it is the official GOP policy
to de-fund the government. I doubt they can be prosecuted on this as they simply removed the laws and oversight that would have made such action possible but I won't pretend this has been some accident.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
43. Ladies & Gentlemen...The Adults Have Entered The Room
It's such a relief listening to Holder. Waterboarding is torture. He is going to review the Schlotzman case and so much more...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
45. Beautiful. "the inability to forgive others translates into an inability to forgive one’s self"
Absolutely beautiful. Happy to rec.

And thanks for mentioning the fact that Gandhi and King were both very prominent religious figures. I know that's not too popular a thought nowadays.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu May 09th 2024, 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC