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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 09:29 PM
Original message
How about no invocation?
Damn, all that's been going on due to that dumb-fuck Rick Warren and his stupid prayer at the Inaugural
just confirms
how religion does nothing but separate humankind.

Oh, yeah, and be the major cause of wars.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Amen.
Oh wait...

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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. ........
:)
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. That would be my preference.
Why do we have to have prayers at a ceremony conducted by a supposedly secular government? I know it's "tradition," but it's a tradition I'd love to see disappear.
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Because, when it comes to religion, America is still quite medieval.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Me too!
I guess that's why I'm not so bothered about the choice of Rick Warren. I don't think there's any need to have anyone sniveling to their invisible friend at what should be a completely secular event.
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. There's not any need.
And I feel that having these stupid rituals
forced upon us is in a way a form of discrimination itself.

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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for the rec, whoever you are.
I also would like to add that having this ceremony (prayer)
in itself is a divisive act. How many of us do NOT believe that Jesus is our savior,
and how many of us do not believe in organized religion at all?



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sandyd921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Good idea, commonsense way to handle this. n/t
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. Suits me just fine...
and they can do away with the stupid prayers before NASCAR races as well.

Like God is sitting in front of his TV watching racing on a Sunday afternoon...

he's not.


He's watching Sunday afternoon candlepin bowling.
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Lol!
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. I'm a religious person AND I agree with you.
I've always felt invocations are a violation of church and state, UNLESS there's an invocation from every religion and atheists as well, which would be too damn long, so just eliminate it altogether.
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Asolutely agree.
n/t
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
12. Tell Ya What: Get Elected President First So That Your Opinion Means A Damn Thing.
See, cause it ain't up to you. It's up to Obama. Obama is religious and Obama wants the invocation. Know what that means? Deal with it.
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. You are right. It is not up to me.
But it is my opinion, and I do have the right to express my opinion.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Never Said You Didn't.
I not only have the right to my own, but also the right to ascertain the merit of yours. :hi:
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. Ride Roughshod Over.
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
33. Uh, he's the President of *all* the people of the United States, under the Constitution
Which means it's not just his opinion that counts. Obviously he *can't* do anything he darn well pleases at his inauguration, at least not without causing comment, as the Warren thing has, since there are traditions and laws and opinions. The question, as in so many things, is where the line is drawn.

I think giving this Neanderthal a platform is over the line, and I think removing religion altogether from this ceremony would be a great idea. Unless, as someone said here, you're going to find a representative of every single tiny sect in the whole country, plus every flavor of freethought and atheism.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. As It Relates To TheChoice Of Having An Invocation, It Is ONLY His Opinion That Matters.
Yours means nothing. If a given president wants to have an invocation it is his and his decision alone as to whether or not to have one. Whether you want him to have one or not is irrelevant.
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. I doubt mine means nothing, at least to him. (You, I know about.)
I believe he has said some things about "listening."
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
14. Agreed!
Edited on Fri Dec-19-08 10:20 PM by ObamaVision
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. And:
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. My favorite:
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion." -Thomas Paine

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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. We're probably on the same web page.
:hi:
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Well, I complied a list of them and saved them on my PC
THE FOUNDING FATHERS ON RELIGION:

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." -Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797), signed by John Adams

"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." -John Adams (letter to Charles Cushing, October 19, 1756)

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -John Adams (letter to Thomas Jefferson)

"Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." -John Adams

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State." -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Danbury Baprists, Jan/1/1802

"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination." -Thomas Jefferson

"Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry" -Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law" -Thomas Jefferson

"In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." -Thomas Jefferson

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. , in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ." -Thomas Jefferson

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God." -Thomas Jefferson

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." -Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." -Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short

very one must act according to the dictates of his own reason, and mine tells me that civil powers alone have been given to the President of the U.S. and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents.”
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Rev. Samuel Miller, January 23, 1808

“I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others…. We ought with one heart and one hand to hew down the daring and dangerous efforts of those who would seduce the public opinion to substitute itself into that tyranny over religious faith which the laws have so justly
abdicated.”
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Dowse, April 19, 1803

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813

"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." -George Washington (letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792)

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause." -George Washington (letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792)

"...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction." -George Washington, (1789, responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ)

"...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution." -George Washington (to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789)

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries" -James Madison

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." -James Madison

“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.” -James Madison

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy." -James Madison

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789)

"he number, the industry, and the morality of the Priesthood, & the devotion of the people have been manifestly
increased by the total separation of the Church from the State."
-James Madison, Letter to Robert Walsh, March 2, 1819

"The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of
well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without legal incorporation of
religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical
Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity."
-James Madison, Letter to F.L. Schaeffer, Dec. 3, 1821

"We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts. do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit
will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Govt."
-James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." -Thomas Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all." -Thomas Paine

"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." -Thomas Paine

"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins ... and you will have sins in abundance. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by it to this filthy book ." -Thomas Paine

"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion." -Thomas Paine

"When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin (from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780)

"That religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience." - Patrick Henry (Virginia Bill of Rights, June 12, 1776.)
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thank you.
Thank you so much for the quotes!
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. Baprists?
I don't often bother with correcting, but if you use this in the future, you might want to edit your copy.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
16. Separate religion and politics once and for all
I am a Christian but why is religion, or personal faith so enmeshed with politics which is really public policy. One has nothing to do with the other.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
18. I emailed my representatives...
the Inaugural Committee, and posted on the Change.gov community site, asking at the very least for a public apology. I didn't go into any rants, or anything..just said that the inauguration could have been a celebration for 'we the people'. But because of the divisiveness of one man, instead of celebrating many will be mourning.
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
24. Fine idea. Hope it happens in my lifetime. nt
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. So do I.
Imagine . . . . . no reilgion.
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Lucky 13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
26. AGREED
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
28. Two minutes of silence.
There's a reason schools do this.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Can Warren lead it?
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. Yeah, and the reason is to try to promote prayer, but fortunately the can't *make* you pray.
Yet.
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LaydeeBug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
31. fine with me. nt
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
32. couldn't agree more!! n/t
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
35. How About Drowning Out His Phony Christian
prayer when his fat ugly face pops up on the monitors with millions of "boos".

Because no invocation isn't gonna happen, just like Warren ain't going anywhere. He is Obama's friend now and obviously more important to him than the millions of supporters unhappy with this move.

Maybe PE thinks it's only gays who are upset, or liberal groups because that's how the MSM portrays this. Life in the bubble has begun.

The only way to express anger at this point IMO is for those attending the inauguration - is to boo as loudly as possible. If Warren gets to be heard, then I think we should reciprocate in kind.
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I am hoping we will hear the "boos" , plenty of them. .. .. nt
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. I sure hope so.
I now regret not having made plans to attend.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
38. Most wars in the 19th and 20th centuries had nothing to do with religion.
In fact, that's also true in the 18th century and most centuries prior to the Reformation.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
39. No benediction either - let's go from TWO prayers to ZERO, as it should be.
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