My Libertarian Friend...

[msallied]

He's so convinced that no matter who wins, he's going to lose all of his freedoms. The Democrats will take all his money and make us into a Communist state, and the Republicans will take away his personal freedoms and we will live in a fascist state. I think he's being so damned paranoid, I could throttle him. I try to tell him that Barack Obama is considered too far to the right for most lefties, and he won't believe it.

He's voting for Bob Barr, which is an infant's sigh away from not voting at all. He thinks this country is screwed no matter who gets elected. I think this is intellectually dishonest.

Is there any way to reach these people? To maybe put their impassioned, idealistic rhetoric aside for once and attempt to be pragmatic? NO single candidate is going to be universally perfect. That has never been the case. You vote for the person who most closAnyone else have to deal with people like this?

[yardwork]

1. Call it a victory for Obama that your friend is voting third party and leave it at that.

It sounds to me like he enjoys feeling paranoid and I doubt that you can talk him out of it.

[tblue]

9. Yep. At this point, we just need to make sure every BO voter gets to the polls

and votes early if at all possible. Forget about convincing lost causes.

[msallied]

14. Nope, I can't talk him out of anything. Sigh.

It's just frustrating.

[livetohike]

2. Same story with my Libertarian friend and while we love each

other, we end up arguing politics every time. We've known one another for 28 years. Can't change him.

[msallied]

15. Yeah, I've known this one about 13 years.

He's a great friend. Love him dearly. But I want to bean him in the brain sometimes. lol

[livetohike]

17. LOL, me too

:-) but now we live on opposite coasts, so I can only verbally blast him.

[iiibbb]

3. A vote for Barr is net-1 for Obama.

There's nothing wrong with being a principled libertarian.


The irony is that Bob Barr isn't a principled libertarian.

[Essene]

4. here's the truth about libertarians...

Ron Paul really threw a lot of people for a spin this year.

A ton of young folks got swept up with the latest wave of edgy sounding libertarian ideology. This happens every once in a while.

It's got all the fancy sounding ideas for folks who fundamentally dont believe government has any real role in society. I am not talking about "socialism." I'm saying just basic public interest, law, security, commerce, etc.

There's a certain jeffersonian romance to it... where folks are imagining an almost utopian society that's based on entirely laissez faire economic policy and almost no government at all. No income taxes, no treaties, just some wonderfully "free" existence.

While Ron Paul types can lodge AWESOME criticisms of our government, they never really have anything sound to propose when it comes to addressing real public problems. The solutions always turn out to be basically what a group of kindergarteners would come up with: more recess time, no rules, fun lunch, and no mean people.

It's DELUSIONAL.

You will not talk a serious libertarian down. THey are convinced of their circular logic and revolutionary sense of having some deep insight into the REAL problems with the government. They either snap out of it one day, or they do not.

[crispini]

28. "a bunch of kindergarteners" -- LOL

and so very apt.

[Essene]

30. tell me it isnt true =D

[YOY]

5. Just tell him that Sleestaks are scary...

He'll understand I am sure.

[tblue]

6. So called 'independent' voters get on my nerves. Why can't they just pick something and be it?

I know, I know, I'm impatient. But if, after all the crap this country's been through, you're still on the fence......WTF IS THE MATTER WITH YOU?

Some people actually feel 'at home' being paranoid. I honestly don't know how to help those people.

[AlCzervik]

7. is he socially liberal or just a republican that likes to smoke pot?

[msallied]

22. I suspect the latter, actually. lol

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

8. Tell him to encourage as many of his friends to vote for Barr on Nov. 5th.

:evilgrin:

[vanderBeth]

10. Libertarians always sound like they need tinfoil.

:tinfoilhat:

[CK_John]

11. Ask your friend their favorite color. You'll get a dissertation on the light spectrum but no answer

They are decision challenged.

[Dr Fate]

12. Libertarians exist so that they never have to take a stand on a viable candidate or solution....

With few exceptions, Libertarians wouldnt know what to do if they actually had to defend a party with an actual legislative record like the rest of us.

Libertarians basically give us hypothetical candidates who propose hypothetical solutions to real issues that actual Democrats & Republicans have to do something about and have on their records...

It must be easy being a Libertarian- all you have to do is kick back with a doobie and attack the other 2 parties and say what a hypothetical Libertarian "would do" or "should do" "if" people actually voted for Libertarians.

[msallied]

20. I agree with this assessment.

I agree with a lot of Libertarian policies, especially from a social standpoint. I'm not a fan of "big government." But I know when it comes time to vote where my decision lies. And yes, I'll still be accountable for my choice if it turns out that Barack Obama is actually a big Angry Black Man whose first agenda would be to herd all white people into concentration camps and take take their all their money.

[Uncle Joe]

13. I believe he's partially correct but not in any short term dramatic way,

more like a long term erosion or the ever increasing grasp of a constrictor snake.

I believe the best way for the Democratic Party to reach strong believers of individual liberty is to take on libertarian social values, while also espousing populistic economic ones.

Today I see two growing restrictions against the American People's freedom and privacy, government and corporate working in tandem. They might as well be one and the same, I believe the only way the Democratic Party can distinguish it self from the Republican Party is to protect the individual American from the growing abuse of Big Brother government and Little Brother Corporation.

[PatGund]

16. There's hope....

I'm a former Libertarian myself, and the question I have is "what about libertarianism is the most important to you? Social liberty or economic liberty?

If social liberty, then point out Sen. Obama would be a better choice than a GOP that has seriously infringed on personal freedoms over the last eight years.

If economic liberty, then point out that Rep. Barr has better economic policies for working-class Americans than the GOP has shown over the last eight years.

If you can't get him to vote for Obama, at least deny McCain the vote.

[4lbs]

18. Libertarians side with Democrats when it comes to social/personal issues, and

with Republicans when it comes to business/economic/tax/healthcare ones.


Libertarians side with Democrats on the following issues:

Pro-ACLU and upholding the Bill of Rights

Right to Privacy

pro-Choice

Anti war -> The war in Iraq should have never been fought.

No censorship of print or television media. No internet censorship either.

Get America off fossil fuels and onto alternative sources of energy.




Libertarians side with Republicans on the following issues:

Full government deregulation of all industries and markets (yes, even banking/financial)

The FDA oversight of drug and food industries is just more unnecessary regulation. In fact the FDA is totally useless according to Libertarians.

Anti gun control

Anti taxes of any type. Libertarians want to abolish or at least severely cut income and sales taxes both federally and at the state level.

Privatization of Social Security. That's right, Libertarians want to eliminate Social Security and privatize it by putting everybody into IRAs or 401k plans.

Elimination of Medicare. Libertarians want to eliminate it and have everyone go into private health care plans.


===================================================================================

Tell your Libertarian friend that the Republican policies he supported on the business and economic side are what got this country into recession. As well as the war in Iraq, which is Republican-owned.

So, he should vote Democratic to balance it out and let the Democrats fix what the Republicans did, since Republicans surely won't.

[yardwork]

21. I thought Libertarians were pro-choice but they're not. I went to their website.

Libertarians are not pro-choice. They're in favor of laws against abortion. They're also in favor of laws against gays. It turns out that Liberatarians' promise of "less government" only applies to certain things.

[msallied]

24. What? I just re-read the Libertarian platform and did not see that.

[yardwork]

26. You're right! I just checked the national Libertarian platform and it says:

1.3 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the rights of individuals by government, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships.

1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

----------------------
This was not true the last time I looked, but that was a couple of years ago. Maybe it was my state's Liberatarian Party, too. I'll go check.

[yardwork]

29. I just checked my state's Libertarian platform. It has definitely changed!

It now clearly supports gay rights and no longer says anything about abortion one way or the other.

I agree with a lot of their positions, but disagree on their position on the environment and I think they're wimping out on health care. There are certain areas that require government oversight.

[4lbs]

25. Where's it stated?

I have a Libertarian friend and he's pro-Choice and pro gay rights.

[yardwork]

27. You're right and I was wrong. See above.

It's possible that the platform changed in the past few years, or that I was looking at my state's Liberatarian website.

[insanity]

19. Libertarianism is intellectually dishonest

The notion that laissez-faire economics and lack of political authority creates the most amount of freedom is totally absurd. The two interests are opposed to each other fundamentally... the current financial mess proves the follies of deregulation for the public good.

[RichardRay]

23. It's about as hard to find a real bull moose libertarian as

it is to find a real bull moose pacifist. Lots of people lean in those directions (although rarely the same people!) but to find someone who's really thought it through and developed a world view and an analysis based on either one is pretty damn rare. I like the ones who have (either kind), but the bulk of those who profess either one are mostly in it for the reaction.