NYT criticizes Dean on secrecy

[BeyondGeography]

This is an editorial in today's NYT criticizing Dean's refusal to release all of his records as Governor of Vermont. Key paragraph:

"We didn't want anything embarassing appearing in the papers at a critical time in any future endeavor," Dr. Dean explained at the time. That certainly shows an executive gift for anticipation. Then again, it has put an extra premium on pressing the search through his past. Dr. Dean says he must defend sensitive private matters from unfair scrutiny in resisting rivals' demands for greater disclosure. Proper exceptions should be made, but hardly the sweep of secrecy Dr. Dean has claimed. Any reader these days can see that his resistance is making Vermont only more of a magnet for media and political sleuthing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/07/opinion/07WED2.html

[Jerseycoa]

Getting it from all sides today, ain't he? nt

[Dookus]

1. good.

It's inexcusable that people are giving him a pass for hiding public records for his own political considerations.

I hope he gets hammered on this relentlessly. Democrats shouldn't be asked to vote for a pig-in-a-poke. Until his records are released, we have no idea what he's hiding.

[Jerseycoa]

2. What did we do, Dookus?

We posted at the exact same second and you are #1 and I am no number.

[Dookus]

3. lol...

it's a bug in the system. If two people post simultaneously, this happens.

[stickdog]

30. Can I see all of Clark's personal correspondence & records for the

last 10 years?

Kerry's?

Bush's?

So why the double standard?

[jumptheshadow]

35. Personal correspondence is different from government records

Especially if you're running on your record in government.

[Zomby Woof]

4. I'm smelling blood in the water

And it's fun. :-)

[La_Serpiente]

5. Howabout a glass of sangria?

sangria comes from the spanish word "sangre" or in English "blood"

[Zomby Woof]

13. um yeah

I am more than a bit familiar with the Spanish language and culture.

[maddezmom]

34. too early for sangria

but I guess it's never too early around here for blood

[SahaleArm]

7. The game is a foot...

I expect it to be a free for all through Super Tuesday :evilgrin:

[jumptheshadow]

36. What would be even more fun

Is if Clark and Dean debate one on one.

Oh, what a good time.

:evilgrin:

[Dookus]

10. Not so much fun as sad....

we're being asked to pick somebody who doesn't believe in the principle of open government, and we're being asked to pick somebody who might have huge skeletons in his closet. Does he? I have no idea. Release the records and we can find out.

If he has nothing to hide, release the records.

[bearfartinthewoods]

48. now Zomby...no gloating

a sigh of relief is appropriate though of course....

[adamrsilva]

6. NYT is anti-Dean, as is all media

Don't they get it actually bolsters his support?

[Dookus]

9. lol...

keep telling yourself that.

Pointing out that a public officer is hiding his records for his own political considerations is unlikely to bolster his support beyond the religiously attached people found here.

[maddezmom]

37. ok, then be happy

:)

[beaconess]

46. Yes, the NYT has the temerity to refrain from kissing Dean's

ass, therefore, it is added to the "anti-Dean meanies" list.

[MIMStigator]

8. Thought he said he was just keeping gay people in closet?

nt

[Donkeyboy75]

11. I'm a huge Dean supporter, but...

this really bothers me. I don't post often, but I remember the stink that was raised in this forum about Bush's failure to release his documents as governor (I know, I know, he's since released them). There are certainly going to be credibility issues with him if he wins the nomination for reasons like this. He needs to patch the leaks now.

[Dookus]

12. thank you very much, Donkeyboy

it's refreshing to hear.

MOST of the good ol' lefties I know have ALWAYS believed in the principle of open government. It's only in the last few months I've seen a significant number of them renege on that because of Howard Dean.

[slinkerwink]

14. Dean is having an independent judge review his records to decide

which ones should be released, and which ones shouldn't. BTW, 60% of Dean's records are open to the public.

[Dookus]

16. and 40% are not...

they never should've been sealed in the first place.

Especially when he admits readily that the reason for doing so was to prevent anything embarrassing from coming out against him.

Luckily, people who believe in secretive government, like you, are in the minority.

[Forkboy]

18. Your last line proves your sig correct

[Dookus]

21. we're all just

talking out of our ass. It's all opinions. Yours are no better than mine.
on edit: And if you think hiding public records to cover your ass is "open government" then you don't know what the term means.

[Forkboy]

22. Thank God you can admit it

[Dookus]

24. Yup!

I admit we're both just expressing our opinions.

Now do you wanna argue substance? Can you?

[Forkboy]

28. Have I ever said anything like this?

And if you think hiding public records to cover your ass is "open government" then you don't know what the term means.

Nope,I haven't.Have I said this is a valid question to ask Dean about? Yes,I have.

[Dookus]

29. forkboy...

I like you. Honestly, I really do. But I tried playing the nice game here for a long time. You can search ALL my posts, and you won't find ONE that's negative to Dean prior to January 2nd.

I gave up the Miss Manners game, because I was being forced to play a one-sided game. The Clark-bashers are merciless. I tried to reason with them, to no avail.

So now I go after Dean. But MY attacks are based on facts, and I back them up. I don't say "Dean is a liar". I post a link to a legitimate news source that shows he has acted differently from his words. I don't say "Dean is a republican" - I post a link to something that shows he embraces policies traditionally associated with the GOP.

And in fact, by doing this, I've learned a lot about Dean that I didn't know before. Prior to Jan. 2nd, I NEVER searched the web to find anything negative about ANY candidate. But since I've started, I've found more and more to make me very worried about Dean.

I'm sorry you don't like it, but I could PM you the names of at least 5 people whose posts you should look up. You won't find anything of substance in their constant attacks. Then look at my posts and decide who is actually arguing with facts.

Am I sarcastic? Hell yeah. Am I a mindless basher? No.

In the example you give, I think I'm justified. Dean has said that his records were locked to prevent future political embarrassment. His supporters think that's valid. They also claim to be in favor of "open government". There's a huge disconnect there, and I'm not going to be shamed into ignoring it.

I really do understand where you're coming from. i was there myself until a few days ago. I have full faith that after the primaries, we'll all come together. Those who refuse to do won't be here much longer after that.

[slinkerwink]

19. the 40% once again are being reviewed by a judge

[Dookus]

20. so?

why were they locked in the first place? To protect him from embarrassment.

I think that's a piss-poor reason to hide public records.

[slinkerwink]

23. because of what's said in office between advisors, what they say back to

him, the letters his constituents write to him. Some of those stuff can be embarassing for any politician. There's plenty of stuff in my congressman's office that he's sealed that are embarassing, like the lawsuit from his ex-wife, etc. No politician wants that kind of stuff to be used against him by an opponent.

[Dookus]

25. if you think

40% of the Dean's public records are letters from gay constituents, I have a bridge to sell you.


Identifying information in letters can be redacted easily. What's he hiding? Why would he mention his own political embarrassment if it was merely constituent privacy he was hiding?

[slinkerwink]

32. of course 40% of his letters aren't from gay constituents, they're from

other people......duh.

[stickdog]

31. Most Governors seal a portion of their records and ALL Senators &

lobbyists and board members do.

Why the double standard?

[Dookus]

39. I have no double standard...

I believe ALL elected officials should make their records public, regardless of party affiliation or level of office.

From city clerks to the President of the US.... they all work for us. Their work-product belongs to the people who employ them. Barring security issues or citizen privacy, it's all public.

Only Dean supporters can disagree with that. And they can't do it with logic - they can only do it out of religious devotion.

[mbali]

47. A different standard because of entirely different situations

As I've noted before, presidents and governors are in entirely different positions than legislators and, as such, are held to a different standard. The decisionmaking process of members of the legislative branches is not only collaborative (and, as such, none of them independently wield a great deal of unilateral power), but is also very transparent. On the other hand, the head of executive branches not only hold considerably more independent power, their decisionmaking process is very opaque. That is why governors and presidents are called upon to open their records for public scrutiny while legislators are not not expected to do the same. And that is why you never see any groundswell of demands from those experienced in open government that legislators open their records. Such demands seem only to come from people who either don't understand how government works or are trying to deflect attention away from Howard Dean's indefensible secrecy.

[Melodybe]

26. In the interview he was joking. He is actually laughing as he said this

it has for the umpteenth time been taken out of context.

[Dookus]

27. I have read the statement

countless times in news reports, none of them reported he was joking.

Open Government has been a liberal ideal for at least two centuries. I'm shocked that lefties are willing to abandon it just to protect one individual.

[slinkerwink]

33. should we really trust the "fair and balanced" reports of the media?

we've seen all the hatchet jobs they've done on our candidates in favor of Bush.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mbali]

49. He was joking

or he was misquoted
or he didn't say it
or it was a brilliant ploy to focus attention on a difficult issue
or he didn't mean it.

No matter what, he's not responsible for anything that he says that turns out to be difficult to explain or justify.

[Forkboy]

15. One of the few deserved attacks on Dean

[Donkeyboy75]

17. Amen to that

n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

38. NYT acting more and more like a tool for the corporate culture

no shock here.

[Dookus]

42. Dismiss this at your own risk....

Most traditional democrats will not agree that hiding public records for the political protection of an individual is a good thing.

The only reasonable conclusion they can draw is that Dean has something to hide. And I don't blame them.

[CWebster]

43. Yep

They are keeping the focus on Dean, but a negative one and rather than say a negative word about Bush, they say nothing. Notice Bush is hardly in the news---the focus, and thus, the target is off him.
My suspicion is that the Times prefers and identifies with the Kerry image. Wealthy, conventional, stuffy, North-Eastern liberal snob who maintains the status quo and the social order.

[Dookus]

44. Yes...

the cultural difference between Dean and Kerry is SOOOO huge that the NYT has made pointing it out a priority.


Dean is a rich, former drunk Yalie who avoided the draft, rejects campaign finance rules, is supported by the NRA, and thinks it's ok to seal his records.

If you think that's OK, you might as well vote for Bush.

Dean isn't worthy of carrying John Kerry's dirty jockstrap. In fact, he's so Bush-like it's shocking that his supporters don't see it.

[CWebster]

45. So long as he isn't Bush-lite

and carrying water for the dim bulb who believes he has a date with destiny.

[beaconess]

50. Yes, the NYT questions the almighty Dean

therefore they must be a tool of the corporate culture.

[CWebster]

51. Well they hardly mention Kucinich

or any of the Afro-American candidates....They hardly amount to much in the good ol' boys network.

[edzontar]

40. But, but, I thought the media were cynically PROMOTING Dean

So he would win the primaries and "doom" us in the general election.

I guess the NYT missed the memo.

[Hep]

52. It's a Dean opponent ping pong game!

Too secretive

Not secretive enough

Too secretive

Not secretive enough

To pro israel

Too pro palestine

Too liberal

too conservative




It's quite a thing to see.

[molly]

53. Who said he wasn't secretive enough?