I'll be honest about Clark. ...I fear he is an "insider outsider."

[Armstead]

I like the General. He is 900 percent preferable to Bush. I admite his fundamental decency and his quiet strength. So do not take this as a slam. It is simply my thoughts, and why I can't get enthusiastic about him at this point.

The fact that he is not a Beltway Boy gives him the aura of an outsider, Jimmy Stewart coming in to clean up the mess. But I fear Clark is too much like Bill Clinton and the DLC in the wrong ways.

That is, although he is a newcomer to politics,he is a corporate centrist "new Democrat." His advisers, supporters and his involvement in the corporate sector seems like his message and policies will be more of the same old wine in a new bottle.

The horrors of free trade and the hollowing out of America? Corporate incentives and training. Huh? That's a band-aid. Robert Rubin as an advisor. More "Growth is the only goal" brand of Greenspan economics. If it's good for Corporate America it's good for everyone. Nope, that's Republican.

I also am botehred by his early unwillingness to come out as a Democrat before he ran. And his past support for Republicans, especially Ronald Reagan. Unless he has really changed his stripes since then, I find it hard to see him as a liberal Democratic populist.

Okay I know Howard Dean is actually a moderate too, and in some ways more conservative than Clark. But still, I think Dean has developed an awareness of the need for real change in the status quo.

He understands why many liberals and progressives are not only pissed at Bush, but the enabling behavioor of the corporate Democrats who have lost touch with the grass roots.

Like I said, I will support Clarek if he is the nominee. But I fear that if he wins, the liberal impetus in the Democratic Party will be sent back to the starting block.

[Cheswick2.0]

1. yes I think Clark is a very decent man and I would be happy to vote for

him. However I think we need more change than he has the stomach for. Corporate america needs to be reigned in and Dean wants to do it.

[robbedvoter]

3. You may want to check Clark's plans to close corporate loopholes

and stop them for exporting jobs abd enforcing SEC rules...there's more. I say, if you are going to pick a candidate read both platforms You may be surprised about which one you'll find to be the most liberal.

[mzmolly]

6. Read both platforms. Clark tooks Deans positions as his own

so I tend to look at his history instead.

I think you should read the platforms, your the one who would be suprised.

[blm]

9. Dean stole most of his platform from Kerry.

Dean's positions are the ones who don't match his actual record.

You think he just woke up one morning and automatically understood progressive solutions that Kerry had studied and worked on for decades?

I highly doubt that Clark would steal anything from Dean. Clark didn't rack up a record of a compromising centrist for 11 years like Dean did.

[Armstead]

16. This to me says a lot

I think Dean really does understand what's happening.

Excerpt from Dean's Promnise of America address:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=11077

"...About two years ago, I began my campaign as all candidates do here in New Hampshire and out in Iowa meeting with small groups of voters to talk and to persuade, but mostly to listen. I ate with Iowans in their diners, gathered with families in their living rooms in New Hampshire, toured factories and farms, and spoke in town halls.

I engaged in one of the great traditions of American presidential politics listening really listening to the people at the heart of America.

I heard their hopes and their fears. They shared their concerns and their dreams.

And what I heard truly surprised me. A level of anger and despair I never imagined. About jobs. About working conditions. About making ends meet. About the stress of day-to-day life.

More than anything, I was surprised by the outrage of working Americans at the corporations that employ them and toward the government that serves them. They sense that neither their employers nor their government really care about their problems. That all that matters to business is the bottom line and all that matters to their elected representatives is re-election and collecting campaign contributions.

It became clear to me that there is a fundamental disconnect between the working people of America, corporate America and our government. The social contract that binds us has frayed and stands in desperate need of redefinition and repair...."

[goobergunch]

19. Clark has no political record *at all* for the past 11 years (n/t)

[mzmolly]

34. LOL you must be joking...

Clark racked up a record of voting for Republicans.

Poor John, who'd a thunk he'd lose to the General. :cry:

[mikehiggins]

51. Over the last 11 years, mzmolly?

That would mean he did NOT vote for Bill Clinton OR Al Gore, right?

Want to parade some proof of that around the site?

[mot78]

31. And Dean took his foreign policy from Clark

who advised him earlier this year. However, Clark's no Lieberman, because at least HE opposed this war and doesn't bash others for being "too left".

[mzmolly]

35. He got some ideas from Clark, and some advisors from Clinton.

:)

[SahaleArm]

54. Wrong: Clark's plan is specific - Dean's is vague (across the board)

He provides no facts or figures in his economic plan and he continues to sit on the fence, just look at yesterdays speech. Lots of rhetoric, little substance.

[Cheswick2.0]

17. I have read them both

As I said I will not only vote for but also work my ass off for Clark should he win. However I think Dean articulates the message better.
I say good luck to both of them. We will all be fighting on the same side soon enough.

[denverbill]

20. Ditto.

[zmannxx]

2. I think Clark is an oportunist

I understand what your saying but do you really think Dean has a chance against Bush? I think Clark would beat him easily. I would rather have Dean but is it a good idea to take chances with this? I want Bush the hell out of the white house.

[TorchTheWitch]

5. i would love to know

how Clark can be an opportunist when he had to be pushed into running in the first place, and dragged his feet so long about making a decision whether or not to run that his late start could end up costing him the race.

[Larkspur]

33. Clark was not dragged into the Prez race

He wanted to be drafted, like Ike, but he underestimated the power of Dean's campaign and is having to do something Ike didn't have to do to win the nomination and general election -- work for it.

[mikehiggins]

53. Wow!

Am I allowed to ask what the hell you're smoking?

Where did this one come from? Do you guys just make things up out of the thin air like Rush or the Freepers?

Well, when did Clark decide to run for President? Who did he discuss running with? Where was it reported? Who was there? Did he talk to Christ about it like Bush did?

What a lame.

[blm]

4. But no qualms about the CATO Institute praising Dean?

No qualms that Dean won't release papers of his sweetheart deal with Koch Industries (BFEE loyalists) when Vermont Yankee was sold to Entergy?

No qualms that Koch Industries execs SEEDED Dean's campaign.

No qualms that Koch brothers fund the CATO Institute that rated Dean highest for Dems and even better than many Republicans?

I'll take a Clinton insider over a Koch brothers insider, anyday.

[mzmolly]

8. No qualms about Kerry calling the international community Simon?

No qualms about Kerry pretending to be for and against the war depending on the wind? No qualms about Kerry pretending to be Irish? No qualms about Kerry pretending to have asthma?

hmmm.

[flpoljunkie]

12. These are scurrilous accusations, without any basis in fact.

You ought to be ashamed to post this drivel.

[mzmolly]

36. Pot.... Kettle..... Black....

:nopity:

[dave29]

13. Other People who have praised Dean & seeded the campaign

President Bill Clinton:

"I'd also like to say that whatever it is that Howard Dean knows, or whatever it is that he eats for breakfast every morning, if I could give it to every other Democratic office holder and would-be office holder, we would immediately become the majority in the Congress and we would have about 35 governors."
- President Bill Clinton, Nov. 12, 1997

"Nobody has been better on Healthcare than the Governor" - Harkin Steak Fry 2003

Elijah Cummings, Congressional Black Caucus:
"These are difficult and dangerous times for all Americans," Congressman Cummings declared. "These are times that cry out for a president of strength, moral conviction and balance -- a president who will lead us in doing what must be done to defend our country while we also affirm the fundamental moral principles that bind us together as a nation. I am convinced that Governor Dean will be that president; and, today, I strongly endorse his candidacy."

Al Gore (Popular vote winner 2000):
"...Howard Dean really is the only candidate who has been able to inspire at the grassroots level all over this country the kind of passion and enthusiasm for democracy and change and transformation of America that we need in this country. We need to remake the Democratic Party; we need to remake America; we need to take it back on behalf of the people of this country. So I'm very proud and honored to endorse Howard Dean to be the next president of the United States of America,"


Others with praise for Dean
US Representative Raúl M. Grijalva AZ
Former US Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt AZ
Former State Senator Sandra Kennedy
Former Congressman James McNulty
US Representative Xavier Becerra CA
US Representative Bob Filner CA
Los Angeles City Councilmember Eric Garcetti CA
Terry Gregory San Jose City Council CA
California State Senator Sheila Kuehl CA
US Representative Zoe Lofgren CA
State Assemblyman John Longville CA
US Representative Lucille Roybal-Allard CA
US Representative Loretta Sanchez CA
US Representative Hilda Solis CA
Forrest Williams, San Jose City Council CA
San Diego Democratic Club - A Chapter of the National Stonewall Democrats
Cal Berkeley Democrats - University of California, Berkeley CA
State Representative Annette Carter CT
State Senator Eric Coleman CT
State Representative Chris Donovan CT
State Representative Tony Walker CT
Former Governor Lowell Weicker, Jr. CT
State Representative Roger Bruce GA
State Senator Gloria Butler GA
Chip Carter, son of Former President, Jimmy Carter GA
County Commissioner Bill Edwards GA
County Commissioner Burrell Ellis GA
Lithonia Mayor-Elect Darrell Honoree GA
Albany City Commissioner John Howard GA
County Commissioner Hank Johnson GA
County Commissioner Larry Johnson GA
Former Senator Leroy Johnson GA
Vernon Jones, CEO of Dekalb County GA
State Representative George Maddox GA
State Representative Pedro Marin GA
State Representative Billy Mitchell GA
State Representative Howard Mosby GA
State Representative John Noel GA
State Representative Nan Orrock GA
State Representative Ron Sailor GA
State Senator Valencia Seay GA
Democratic Party Chairman Calvin Smyre GA
Marianne Spraggins, DNC Member GA
State Representative Lanett Stanley-Turner GA
State Representative Pam Stephenson GA
State Representative Curt Thompson GA
State Labor Commissioner Michael Thurmond GA
County Commissioner Lou Walker GA
State Representative Stan Watson GA
US Representative Jesse Jackson, Jr. IL
State Senator Iris Martinez, Secretary, DNC's Hispanic Caucus IL
Lt. Governor Pat Quinn (D-IL)
State Delegate Curt Anderson MD
Takoma Park City Council Member Joy Austin MD
Chestertown Mayor Margo G. Bailey MD
State Delegate Elizabeth Bobo MD
Montgomery County Delegate Bill Bronrott MD
Alvaro Cifuentes, Chair, DNC's Hispanic Caucus MD
US Representative Elijah E. Cummings MD
Prince Georges County Council Member Thomas Dernoga MD
State Delegate Kathleen Dumais MD
Takoma Park City Council Member Marc Elrich MD
State Delegate Brian Feldman MD
State Delegate Peter Franchot MD
State Senator Brian Frosh MD
State Senator John Giannetti MD
State Delegate Marilyn Goldwater MD
State Del. Ana Sol Gutierrez MD
Maryland Democratic Party Vice-Chair Sue Hecht MD
State Delegate Mary-Dulany James MD
Easton City Council Member Scott Jensen MD
State Senator Ed Kasemeyer MD
Mt. Rainier Mayor Brian Knedler MD
State Delegate Susan Lee MD
Montgomery County Councilman George Leventhal MD
State Delegate Rich Madaleno MD
State Delegate Salima Marriot MD
Mt. Rainier City Council Member Melinda Miles MD
State Delegate Karen S. Montgomery MD
State Delegate Gareth Murray MD
State Delegate Doyle Niemann MD
Baltimore Mayor Martin O'Malley MD
State Delegate Obie Patterson MD
Former State Delegate Wendell Phillips MD
Takoma Park Mayor Kathy Porter MD
State Delegate Victor Ramirez MD
State Delegate Justin Ross MD
Former Baltimore Mayor Kurt Schmoke MD
Montgomery County Council President Michael Subin MD
Takoma Park City Council Member Bruce Williams MD

MASSACHUSETTS

Reed Augliere (Littleton Selectman)
Matt L. Barron (Chair, Chesterfield Democratic Town Committee)
Ronald Bergstrom (Selectman, Chatham)
Dr. Brian Bowcock (Selectman, Town of Fairhaven)
John Buonomo (Middlesex County Register of Probate)
John Bullard (Former Mayor of New Bedford)
Former Rep. Suzanne Bump (Braintree)
Lou Cerrone (Treasurer, Cape and Islands Democratic Council)
Liz Cody (Ward 5 chair, Newton Democratic Town Committee)
Michelle Collette (Chair of Groton Democratic Town Committee)
Stefanie Coxe (ExComm Member, Cape and Islands Democratic Council)
Richard Cushing (West Newbury Selectman)
Lou Ann Cutaia (Co-Chair of Maynard Democratic Town Committee)
Kate Donaghue (Democratic State Committee member, Westboro)
Rep. Christopher Donelan (Orange)
Christopher Edley, Jr. Law Professor, Co-Director of Harvard Civil Rights Project MA
Richard Elrick (Barnstable Town Councilor)
Gil Falcone (Chairman, Becket DTC)
Susan Gates (former member of the Chelmsford Board of Selectmen)
Vance Gillespie (Chair of Holden Democratic Town Committee)
Lucia Giudice (Secretary of the Maynard Democratic Town Committee)
Paul Glavey (DSC member, Littleton)
Kevin Gonsalves (Town of Fairhaven School Committee)
Etta Goodstein (DSC member, Cape & Islands)
Former Rep. Saundra Graham (Cambridge)
Tom Green (Hudson School Committee)
Alma Greene (DSC member, Cape & Islands)
Steve Grossman, former chair of the Massachusetts Democratic Party
Leonardo "Chip" Guercio (Selectman, Shirley)
Marschia Heist (Brookline School committee)
Ted Hess-Mahan (Alderman-at-Large, Newton)
Former Rep. Chris Hodgkins (Lee)
Rep. Mark Howland (Freetown)
Gil Hoy (Brookline Board of Selectmen)
Regina Hughes (DSC member, Dorchester)
Paul Hush (Chair, Brewster Town Democratic Committee)
Laura Jette (DSC member, Worcester/Hampden/Hampshire/Franklin)
Marcia T. Johnson (Alderman-at-Large, Newton)
Rep. Jay Kaufman (Arlington, Lexington, Woburn)
Patty Kellogg (Newton School Committee)
Dorothy Keville (former delegate, Democratic National Convention)
Elizabeth Kilcoyne (Former DSC member, Ipswich)
Maryellen Lake (Secretary, Becket DTC)
John Leonard (Officer, Maynard DTC)
Terry Lindgren (Acton School Committee)
Francis Marano (Berkshire County Register of Probate)
Mary McCarthy (AAOO, Maynard DTC)
Peg McClure (Vice-Chair, West Newbury Democratic Town Committee)
Patrick McDermott (Norfolk County Register of Probate)
Terry McGinty (DSC member, Cambridge)
Carl W. McKinney (Clarksburg Board of Selectmen)
Gibbs Mitchell (Former DSC member; former chair of Westborough DTC)
State Representative Pat Jehlen (D-MA)
State Representative Jay Kaufman (D-MA)
Former Rep. John F. Merrigan (Franklin County)
Thomas Moriarty (Hampden County Register of Probate)
Michael Moore (Millbury Selectmen)
State Representative Charles Murphy (D-MA)
Evelyn Murphy, former Lieutenant Governor of Massachusetts
Rep. Tom O'Brien (Kingston, Plympton, Plymouth)
John Oelfke (Chair of Shirley Democratic Town Committee)
Kathy Pasquina (DSC member, West Newbury)
Lesley Phillips (Secretary, Cambridge Ward 5 Democratic Committee)
Rob Phillips (West Newbury Planning Board)
Former Rep. Marsha Platt (DSC member, Grafton)
Former Rep. Marsha Platt (Grafton)
Ken Reeves (former Mayor of Cambridge, currently City Councilor) MA
John Rockwell (Planning Board-Town of Marion)
Kelley Roney (Chair, Middlesex and Worcester Democratic Coalition)
Lorraine Seaton (Treasurer, Ipswich Democratic Town Committee)
Sue Senator (Brookline School Committee)
Sue Sheffler (Arlington School Committee)
Mark Siegenthaler (Bedford Selectmen)
State Representative Frank Smizik (D-MA)
Rep. Harriet Stanley (Newbury, Merrimac, Haverhill)
Len Stewart (DSC member, Provincetown)
Rep. Ellen Story (Amherst, Granby)
State Representative Bill Straus (D-MA)
David Sullivan (Hampshire County Register of Probate)
Dorothy Sussman (Treasurer of Littleton Democratic Town Committee)
Laurie Taymor-Berry (Ex-oficio chair of Cambridge Democratic City Committee)
Jeff Thielman (Arlington School Committee)
Edmund Traverso (Chair, Ipswich Democratic Town Committee)
Rep. Jim Vallee (Franklin)
Rosamund Veator (Secretary, West Newbury Democratic Town Committee)
Rep. Joe Wagner (Chicopee)
Bonnie Winokar (DSC Member, Maynard)

MICHIGAN

Macomb County Democratic Party Chairman Ed Bruley MI
Former US Representative Bob Carr MI
10th Congressional District Democratic Chairwoman Alisa Diez MI
Managing Partner of Law Firm of Fraser Trebilcock David & Dunlap, P.C. Mark R. Fox MI
State Representative Paul Gieleghem MI
Retired Chief Judge Ingham Circuit Court Peter D. Houk MI
Former State Representative Lynn Jondahl MI
State Representative Andrew Meisner MI
Macomb County Commissioner Robert Mijac MI
St. Clair County Democratic Committee Treasurer Timothy Morse MI
Former State Senator Lana Pollack MI
Avra Siegal, University of Michigan Senior, (400,000th Personal Endorsement) MI
Former 10th Congressional District Democratic Chair Joe Slabbinek MI
State Representative Virgil Smith MI
15th Congressional District Democratic Vice-Chair Stanley Stewart MI
State Senator Michael "Mickey" Switalski MI
Senior VP External Affairs St. John Health System Terrence Thomas MI
State Representative Aldo Vagnozzi MI

MINNESOTA

Neec Bowyer, LGBT community leader MN
Bob Brandt, DFL Party activist MN
State Representative Karen Clark
State Senator Scott Dibble MN
Gail Dorfman, Commissioner, Hennepin County Board of Commissioners MN
Judith H. Dutcher, Former State Auditor MN
Judy Farmer, Director, Minneapolis School Board MN
Kerry Gauthier 8th Congressional District Chair MN
Rod Halvorson, DFL Executive and Central Committee member MN
Jeremy Hanson, LGBT community leader MN
State Representative Frank Hornstein
Gail Huntley, Former DFL Party Associate Chair MN
State Representative Tom Huntley
State Representative Mike Jaros
Christine Jax, Former State Commissioner MN
State Representative Sheldon Johnson
David Lilly, DFL Party activist MN
State Senator Becky Lourey
Jan Malcolm, Former State Commissioner MN
State Representative Carlos Mariani
John Milton, Former State Senator MN
Former State Senator Ted Mondale MN
Javier Morillo-Alicea, Latino community leader MN
State Senator Mee Moua MN
Donny Ness, Councilor, Duluth City Council MN
Rick Nolan, Former DFL United States Representative MN
Sue Ponsford, DFL Party Treasurer MN
Sue Rockne, Pro-choice activist MN
Minnesota for Dean Co-Chair Mary Rosenthal MN
Minneapolis Mayor R. T. Rybak MN
Gary Schiff, Council-Member, City of Minneapolis MN
Randy Schubring, 4th Congressional District Chair MN
Dick Senese, Former DFL Party Chair MN
Rick Stafford, Former DFL Party Chair MN
John Stiles, LGBT community leader MN
State Representative Cy Thao

More than 300 NH Endorsements including:
Former State Senator Harold "Chip" Rice NH
State Representative Peter Allen NH
Keene Mayor Mike Blastos NH
State Representative Ruth Bleyler NH
State Representative Candace C. W. Bouchard NH
State Labor Commissioner Jim Casey (D-NH)
State Representative Ned Densmore NH
State Representative Estelle Diamond NH
Ex-State Party Chair Romeo Dorval NH
State Representative Tim Dunn NH
State Representative Peter Espiefs NH
State Representative Anne Grassie NH
Ex-State Senate President Ralph Hough NH
State Representative Claudette Jean NH
State Representative Lionel Johnson NH
State Representative Nancy Johnson NH
State Representative Jane Kelley NH
Ex-State Dem. Chair Mike King NH
State Representative David Meader NH
State Representative Joseph Miller NH
State Representative McKim Mitchell NH
State Representative Jessie Osborne NH
State Representative Arthur Pelletier NH
State Representative Marsha Pelletier NH
State Representative Jay Phinizy NH
State Representative Fran Potter NH
State Representative John Pratt NH
State Representative Barbara Richardson NH
State Representative Tim Robertson NH
State Representative Gloria Seldin NH
State Representative Betsy Shultis NH
State Representative Claire Snyder NH
State Representative Hilda Sokol NH
State Representative Peter Solomon NH
State Representative Mary Stuart Gile NH
State Representative Anna Tilton NH
State Representative Mary Jane Wallner NH
State Representative Amy Webber NH
State Representative Chuck Weed NH
State Representative Brenda Ferland NH
State Representative Sandy Harris NH
State Representative Joe Harris NH
State Representative Derek Owen NH
State Representative Dennis Vachon NH
State Representative Peter Schmidt NH
State Representative Claudette Jean NH
State Representative David Meader NH
State Representative Donald Brueggemann NH
State Representative Anne-Marie Irwin NH
State Representative Jessie Osborne NH
State Representative Terie Norelli NH
Windham Town Democratic Chair Scott Brody NH
Salem High School Democrats Chair Dave Brody NH
Former State Representative Michael Collins NH
Former State House Leader Raymond "Mr. Mayor" Senechel NH
Former State House Candidate Larry Weil NH
Director of Juvenile Services Joe Diament NH
State Board of Education Member Judie Reever NH
Hilary Cleveland - wife of late Congressman James Cleveland (R-NH)

And as far as seeding the campaign there are hundreds of thousands of us "seeding it" everyday. It's called "grassroots". Look into it.

[Armstead]

14. Nope

This notion that Dean is a Cato fave is more spin. Some may have said nice things but they are libertarians, not corporate shills unlike some conservative thinks.

Anyway if you assume that when conservatives approve of someone, they are wrong, then this shows that Dean is not a darling of Cato.

http://www.thetartan.org/98/11/forum/4331.asp

November 17, 2003
(Carnege Institute student newspaper

....Dean continues to attack Bush on his economic record, but how has Howard Dean done himself as the governor of Vermont? The answer, as found in a recent Cato Institute study on America’s governors, is “poorly.”

The Cato study is based on 17 different measures of economic performance, and follows the same formula used in Cato’s previous five mirroring studies. Major weight is given to taxes and spending in the governors’ respective states.

The obvious emphasis is on cutting taxes and reducing spending. Considering these facts, and his record, it should be no surprise that Howard Dean earned the 8th-lowest overall score and a D letter grade.

Dean continues to attack Bush on spending, ignoring the mistakes he has made in Vermont, which has one of the highest income taxes in the nation. In fact, as pointed out in the Cato study, Vermont regularly loses jobs and businesses to its income-tax-free neighbor, New Hampshire. Adding to his low score in the Cato Institute study is Dean’s endorsement of state-funded backing of universal health care.....MORE

----


And from 2001, when he was still a governor...

Fiscal report card ranks Dean 34th among governors
February 13, 2001
http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/20204
The Associated Press

ALBANY, N.Y. -Republican Paul Cellucci of Massachusetts has taken the top spot on the biennial fiscal policy report card on governors issued Monday by a conservative think-tank.

Democrat Howard Dean of Vermont was in 34th place. The Washington, D.C.-based Cato Institute noted that "those governors with the most fiscally conservative records - the tax and budget cutters - receive the highest grades."


MORE

[KittyWampus]

22. That You Would TRY & Characterize It As Spin Is Funny

Dean switched positions on so many Key Liberal Issues just upon entering the race.

***the fact Dean pushed for Energy De-Regulation using a scheme that had failed right before his eyes in Quebec.
***the fact Dean was lionized by the CATO Institute where he took the opportunity to bad mouth Democrats in Congress who were trying to get money to states like Vermont.
***the fact that the actions of his Administration helped Enetergy purchase a power plant below value
***the fact that Entergy gave Dean money to seed his campaign

Then there's Dean's sealed records which he LIED about-saying they contained names of people which could easily be redacted.

[blm]

23. thankyou. Why people have trouble reconciling Dean's past record

with his record AFTER he started campaigning is easily undestandable. Just because Dean fortified himself in a few areas doesn't negate his overall centrist record that was touted by the CATO Institute.

The Koch brothers will come up and bite Dean HARD, just as they did with McCain, but worse. They're just waiting till the general election when it's too late for the Dem primary voters.

[Armstead]

27. Slamming Dean is not the subject of this thread

In my original post I cited my misgivings about Clark. But most of the responses have been about Dean.

I am aware of Dean's shorrtcomings. It seems like it would be more productive to address the questions I raised at the top, instead of slamming Dean.

[mzmolly]

37. Put that cato thing to bed ey?

:boring:

[blm]

40. Nope. Koch brothers will have the last laugh with Dean and the Dem party

if Dean is the nominee.

[mzmolly]

43. We'll have the last laugh when Dean takes the oath of office.

:)

[robbedvoter]

7. Is that better or worse then the "outsider - insider" that *D is?

A guy who paid for lobbyists in DC to push for his campaign, and is really posing as outsider only to get some naive angry dems in the primary - then will revert to his real self:
"
6 Jake Tapper, "On the campaign trail with the un-Bush," Salon, February 19, 2003.
Back in February 2003, Dean candidly admitted to Salon magazine that if he were to win the nomination of his party he would "probably dispense with some of the more rhetorical flourishes. One time I said the Supreme Court is so far right you couldn’t see it anymore. Next summer I won’t be talking like that. It’s true and I’m not ashamed to have said it, but it doesn’t sound very presidential."6
http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/dean.shtml

[LuminousX]

15. So *D is the new way to tie Dean and Bush together?

Interesting tactic.

[mzmolly]

45. *C

What say you? :evilgrin:

[HFishbine]

29. *

* President.

[goobergunch]

41. Cannot resolve symbol - Syntax error

0: Is that better or worse then the "outsider - insider" that *D is?
                                                               ^

The post could not be read given the syntax error.

[oasis]

10. Insider, outsider, apple cider. Bottom line: Dems and many independents

want a candidate who will beat Bush. Dean and Al Gore are free to work on "remaking the Democratic Party" after the danger of the Bushista regime has passed.

[Armstead]

18. Boittom line:That's a spurious argument

It assumes that Dean or a liberal candidate can;pt win. Same old thinking that objectively has gotten us into this mess.

It's a roll of the dice either way. The same peopel who are saying Dean can;t possible win are the same geniuses who drove the Democratic Party off the cliff in 2002.

[robbedvoter]

30. It assumes that *D's goals are too narrow for the electorate needed

Taking back the party vs taking the country forward. Clark can rally all Americans who don't like W - whether they are GO_-ers, independents, thought the war was a good idea, voted for Raygun or Nixon. All are invited to vote Clark vs * - and they will. The same will not happen for *D

[HFishbine]

32. *

* President.

[goobergunch]

42. Cannot resolve symbol - Syntax error

0: It assumes that *D's goals are too narrow for the electorate needed
                    ^

The post could not be read given the syntax error.

[mzmolly]

44. I think I'd refrain from Repub comparisons if I were a Clark supporter

personally. It's likely to open the Clark can of worms:

you know, his praise for * and his votes for Nixon, Reagan, Bush the first.

In fact, he and Dean share positions on the issues right down to gun control/states rights. And surely he was more * then *D when he voted for Nixon/Reagan/Bush :shrug: I mean it doesn't get any more questionable then them apples now does it? Nahhh.

But, they say many *C supporters don't really know their candidate beyond superficial rhetoric, so perhaps that explains some of the yap?

Hey how bout * or *C?? heh :hi:

[shance]

11. Dean has developed an awareness of the need for real change in the status

Wonderful way to word it . I agree.

I believe Clark has had some awarenesses and/or awakenings of his own, however he hasnt had the time, overall investment and experiences with Americans like Dean has, and I wonder (at times) if more of his motivation is saying what is necessary to win.

I know they all say what is pc from time to time, but I think we have to look at how they are acting on issues (presently as well as in the past), as well as talking about how to deal with and successfully solve issues.

[KittyWampus]

24. Dean Switched On So Many Liberal Issues He Should Run For Congress First

so he can decide whether he REALLY believes in the Issues...

doing 180's on Key Liberal Issues upon entering the race isn't growth- it's opportunism on a blatant scale.

That this is so is obvious in the way Dean can't even get the facts about his own record straight.

During an interview with George Stephanapolous Dean said he NEVER was a "strong supporter of NAFTA". So Dean just flat out lies about his own statements from the past & his record...

[goobergunch]

25. Which seat would you like him to run for?

Leahy, Jeffords, or Sanders? :shrug:

[BootinUp]

38. Must have missed that one...shocking

Why do Deans supporters poo poo this kind of stuff?

[mzmolly]

47. Because we know the man and his record... Unlike Clark who has no

record and only recently joined the party.

[oasis]

55. Let's say Clark uses the Democratic Party to run Bush out of office.

Isn't the removal of the Chimperor our foremost objective anyway? Whether or not the party moves to the left is a matter than can be resolved after Bush is gone.

There are some candidates that will fare better at picking up much needed votes from cultural conservatives. Clark is one of them.

And furthermore, I believe that by attempting to take on Bush, Gen. Clark is continuing in his service to America. That's his priority and The Democratic Party provides him with the best vehicle in which to get that "mission" accomplished. He should be commended for taking on this burden.

[mzmolly]

46. Clark supporters talking about 'a switch'

very strange indeed.

What were Clarks positions when he voted for Reagan again?

[Armstead]

21. Here's an example

Here's an eampe of what bothers me. This is a release from Clark's website, saying that he basically will restoe Clintonomics if elected.

IMO, while obviously much better than Bushonomics, the centrist DLC Democrats ignored a lot of problems durting the 1990's.

The problem I have is that Clintonomics ignored a lot, and used puffed up numbers to take credit for the good side, while downplaying the bad. There's a difference between "growth" and real quality of life.

To be more specific, below is the Clark press release, and below that my own thoughts.

-----
http://clark04.com/press/release/134/


For Immediate Release
Date: December 18, 2003

Clark Responds To Governor Dean's Comments On The Economy
I was surprised to hear that Governor Dean has once again attacked the economic policies of the Clinton years.

This isn't the first time he's done this. Last month, it was reported that Governor Dean wanted to distance himself from Bill Clinton's economic legacy when he called for "re-regulating" the economy. Now, in a speech he gave today, he essentially claimed that President Clinton didn't stand up for America's working families.

Did Howard Dean live through the same eight years as the rest of us?

Maybe Governor Dean should check his facts. Because if I remember correctly, under Bill Clinton ...

America created more than 22 million new jobs...

Under Bill Clinton, we balanced the federal budget...

Under Bill Clinton, we turned record deficits into record surpluses ...

Under Bill Clinton, we had the lowest poverty rate in 20 years - and the lowest African American poverty rate ever.

And under Bill Clinton, we had the lowest inflation in decades - and the lowest African American and Hispanic unemployment rates on record.

If that's not standing up for America's working families, then I don't know what is.

So I don't know about Howard Dean, but when I'm president, I'm not going to throw out the proven policies that brought America the longest economic expansion in history.

------------------------



We need to get away from that way of thinking and come up with a willingness to adopt what used to work when the Democrats were liberal -- plus new thinking outside the Corporate Elite box.


Many of those jobs created in the 90's were either lower wage replacement jobs or unrealistic high-tech jobs that burst with the bubble.

Lowest inflation? More traditional thinking. Technically that may be true, but the cost of healthcare tossed many people into the uninsured category; rising housing costs hit a lot of people hard and "gentrified" many communities; many othr basic expenses of life went up.....And some of the drop in inflation =had to do with the fact that a $20 radio made in Chine is less epensive than a $30 radio made in the US.

Lowest poverty rate in yuears. That's a good thing. But how many in the middle class and working-poor slipped downward closer to the poverty level?

[KoKo]

26. Clinton was lucky that he didn't have to "fix" problems, they were hidden

under the exploding Internet/High Tech explosion. Plus, when Lieberman and Dodd supported relaxing the SEC regulations it opened the door for the wild Stock Speculations of the Bubble. Clinton was fortunate (given his Monica thing) that he didn't have to face what NAFTA has caused or deal with reduced tax revenues and many of the other problems hiding under the "boom."

I still like Bill Clinton, and feel he could have been a greater President but much of the "prosperity" of his time was luck that we were all buying computers for the first time and the deregulation which was rampant.

The problems we are having today, started under Reagan and continued being hidden, until they've come "home to roost." The manipulation that the Bush crowd is doing with Greenspan and the WB is probably going to cause more harm, but that's another story.

We need an "overhaul." I support the Candidate who sees the fundamental problems. I believe Dean and Kucinich both do. And maybe M-B.

[Armstead]

28. Exactly

What we're experiencing now is as much the "chickens coming home to roost" from the 90's as it is Bush's mismanagement and bad policies. Life under Bush is just a symptom of something bigger.

We've got to acknowledge that and deal with reality now, not try to return to the happy illusions of the 90's.

[BootinUp]

39. Something I can't reconcile is

how half the time a supporter of Dean claims he is centrist and the other half of the time they say he is not a nasty DLC er/centrist. Can someone tell me whats up with that? His own supporters don't know what he stands for?

[mzmolly]

48. DLC does not have the corner on the centrist market. They simply

want to control the party. They don't like the fact that the people are taking it back via Howard Dean.

[Armstead]

59. Difference between a moderate and a centrist

A DLC centrist is a strange amalgum of pro-corporate, post-modern Wall St. Democrat that disavows anything associated with liberalism having to do with wealth and power.

A moderate is more populist and is not afraid of the word "liberal," and recognizes the danger of unbridled corporate power and how distorted the economy has become, and is not afraid to address that.

I see Dean as a moderate. I worry that Clark may be a DLC centrist.

[batesboys]

49. Though Clark

is my second choice, only because Gep doesn't have a chance anymore, I still don't like that he only recently joined the Dem Party and has praised Bush in the past.

[mikehiggins]

50. I'm so tired about people "honestly" slamming Clark.

There are less than 1000 hours until the votes start getting counted. Want to be honest? I'm for Clark and I think the rest of the candidates have little chance of beating Bush. I've been involved in politics for forty years and I'm not going to be influenced by any further arguments that actually simply rehash points that have been paraded across this site for months on end.

Let it go.

If your candidate wins, that's fine. I still think we'll lost in November but I'll do my best anyway to beat the pResident. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

[Torgo4]

52. Clark Not Quite Insider--Read His Book

I read "Waging Modern War" earlier in the year before Clark declared. Great read, for historical geo-political perspective even if you're not militarily inclined.
I never expected a 4-star general to get his arse bitten off in every chapter. He was very self-critical in the mistakes he made and the embarassments he endured, while praising almost everyone he worked with. He even praised Cohen for his skill negotiating with the Russians over Pristina Airport/Zone of Control, 2 pages before Cohen unceremoniously sacked him.
Pretty stoic of him.

[absyntheNsugar]

56. Per the Reagan vote:

One of my High School teachers who was one of the most progressive, "Make you think" kind of teachers voted for Reagan in 1980. She regretted it later, but at the time the Cold War clouded a lot of thinking.

The Repubs were pumping the fear engine into overdrive (not unlike today) and Clark, being military, couldn't have been seeing things from the most objective viewpoint. He can now - he's not in the military and his years commanding NATO opened his eyes in an almost Paul of Tarsus kind of way.

At least that's my take...

[shivaji]

57. Items where Clark scores a big fat zero:

>> Number of full years he has been a democrat.

>> No. of candidates skipping Iowa caucus and winning dem nomination.

>> No. of winning candidates endorsed by Madonna.

>> No. of fellow general endorsements.

>> No. of years of actual political experience or positions held.

[oasis]

58. Number of actual presidential requirements listed above: zero.

:-)

[Eurobabe]

60. oh get over it

>> Number of full years he has been a democrat.

So, I am an Independent, you want more people to join the party? Keep insulting us with crap like this.

Loser.

[arewethereyet]

61. you don't get those stars if you area not a beltway boy

they are not a sign of being the best military man.

[oasis]

62. Are you saying that the U.S. has fake or unqualified military leaders?

[arewethereyet]

63. No, not at all. I mean exactly what I said.

Every man passing thru the military and attaining rank are the top tier of their peers. Moving up through the ranks is partly a a matter of time and ticking off the requirements in terms of assignments and training that are clearly defined. If you get that first star, you have proven that you are qualified.

Getting the 2nd, 3rd and 4th are a result of application of interest and Pentagon politicing. If a 3 star gets help from a 1 star in making his pet project get funding (the beltway aspect) then he gets that 2nd star. If he then helps that 4 star get funding for his pet project, a higher profile and pricetag one typically, he gets the 3rd. And the 4th is almost straight from Congress.

These guys have all attained a baseline that qualifies them as able. Some are more inclined by interest of simple ability to address true combat situations, others strategic planning, and a variety of other specialties. They do not always get assigned to the area that they are most gifted in. An assignment like the one Clark was given with NATO came from outside the Pentagon. And in this case, the Pentagon didn't mind seeing him sent away as he was nto well liked there (according to my military contacts, yes they do have Pentagon connections).

Perhaps that explains it a little better.