Michael Moore Dares to Ask: What's So Heroic About Being Shot Down While Bombing Innocent Civilians?

[babylonsister]

Michael Moore Dares to Ask: What's So Heroic About Being Shot Down While Bombing Innocent Civilians?

Posted by Liliana Segura, AlterNet at 11:35 AM on August 21, 2008.

Like Iraq, Vietnam was not a noble cause. It's time we stopped letting politicians and the press perpetuate the McCain War Hero myth.


Confession: I have not yet read all six (short, illustrated, large type) chapters of Mike's Election Guide 2008, Michael Moore's, latest work of jaunty political opinion. Am I supposed to discuss it with him on "Meet the Bloggers" tomorrow? Yes. But I'm not worried. It's a breezy read, has already made me laugh out loud, and besides, I may have already found the best part in Chapter One.

The title is "Ask Mike!" and, in it, ordinary voters, old and young, pose questions about politics and current events. Some are more serious than others ("If Iran has weapons of mass destruction, we should invade, right?"), which does not make Moore's answers any more subtle. ("Excuuuuuse me? Did you say the words, 'weapons of mass destruction?' Take it back. I SAID TAKE IT BACK!") Of course, the "questions" are really satirical jabs at the media -- "When a Republican wears a little American flag lapel pin, what is he trying to say?" "If Obama can't bowl, can he govern?" -- but there's one in particular that is worth paying attention to -- especially if you happen to be a member of the press and have been utterly unwilling to take McCain's supporters and opponents alike to task for perpetuating a narrative that would be central to a McCain victory, and which has already become a dominant theme in this election: The McCain as War Hero canard.

The "question" is posted thusly:

"Why did the Vietnamese shoot down John McCain and put him in prison for five years? He seems like such a nice guy."

ANSWER: I'm guessing, in spite of his anger management issues, he is a nice guy. He has devoted his life to this country. He was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in the defense of our nation. And for that, he was tortured and then imprisoned in a North Vietnamese POW camp for nearly five-and-a-half years.

That's the set-up. It gets better. Moore proceeds, not to question, as Wesley Clark recently did to so many shrieks of criticism, whether McCain's capture really makes him qualified to be president of the United States -- the answer, any thinking person realizes, is "no" -- but whether the Vietnam war was a conflict that can really be said to have produced the breed of "American hero" McCain is so often celebrated as.

"Sadly," he writes, "McCain's sacrifice had nothing to do with protecting the United States. He was sent to Vietnam along with hundreds of thousands of others in an attempt to prop up what was essentially an American colony, South Vietnam, which was being run by a dictator whom we installed."


more Moore...

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/95906/michael_moore_dares_to_ask%3A_what%27s_so_heroic_about_being_shot_down_while_bombing_innocent_civilians/

[Union Thug]

1. SHHHH...Nationalist Militarism cannot be questioned!

We are busy redefining the meaning of heroism. Michael, you are not helping.

[DesertFlower]

2. thank you michael moore. nt

[JCMach1]

3. I do love MM, but this DOES NOT help

[Sugarcoated]

6. That what I thought when I read this

[Ex Lurker]

31. Sure he is. He has every right to say it. Whether it

helps or hinders is what's in question. I think it's the former.

[uponit7771]

7. It's an honest question even if a political 3rd rail or some place we wont go

[JCMach1]

12. It's a slippery slope... this campaign is not about Vietnam, nor should it be

Do you really want McCain droning on about how he did the job his country ASKED him to do?

Hero, or not McCain's ass was stuck in the Hanoi Hilton because he was serving our country (however misguided that conflict may have been). Michael Moore should no better, or was his monolog at the end of F9/11 not truly what he believes concerning the debt we owe the men and women of the armed forces.

So yeah, this is one time I will say STFU Michael.

[bulloney]

20. If Crash is going to use his POW years as THE pillar of his campaign, then be straight with us.

If these developments we've recently been hearing on his POW years turn up to be true, then be prepared to have your campaign criticized.

Don't make up shit about someone drawing a cross in the dirt. Don't say that you turned down the offer to be released when it could have been Henry Kissinger.

Maybe I'm being presumptuous, but I've seen how Republicans have glorified their other "heroes" by making shit up.

[atreides1]

8. Sure it Does

Maybe the McCain campaign will become so apoplexic that John will lose it and show his true self!

Obama's not doing this, an American citizen is using his right to FREE SPEECH to voice an opinion.

Nothing wrong with that, that's the reason I served for 13 years. To do what little I could to preserve that little document called the Constitution, even for those I don't agree with!

[Liberal Dose]

9. You're right. It does not help McCaptured and I'm happy about that.

The first duty of an American POW is to continue trying to escape at all costs, even if it means your life. I am interested in knowing how many times McShame tried to escape. In fact, I'm interested in his entire military record and wonder why in the world there is no pressure for him to make the thing public.

[GreenTea]

10. The truth ALWAYS helps-as Dems hide their heads in the sand-Oh don't get the repugs mad at us. For

god sakes never give the facts or truth....

If we are nice Dems than we will win...don't attack republicans we are better than that....it doesn't help....even if the repugs constantly attack Dems and it's proven to be extremely effective and wins elections....republicans tell us don't do it, people don't like attacks and the idiot Dems listen...as the republicans then proceed to Dems kick asses - And republicans are only defeated when the Dem in question throws it right back at the facist republican slime and play ever harder ball than the republicans!

Oh but we can hold our heads up high when we lose by not lowering ourselves to the republicans level!!

Talk about losers!

[Ex Lurker]

30. x2. The people whom this appeals to are already voting for

Obama. He won't convince any fence sitters with this line of reasoning, and in fact will likely do the opposite. In that regard he's a bit like Ann Coulter--whipping up the base while galvanizing the other side and alienating the middle. The McCain camp probably cheered when they read this.

[RichGirl]

4. This is why I love Michael Moore....

...he has the balls to say things that most are reluctant to even thing.

[uponit7771]

5. EXACTLY!!!! WTF are we thinking about!!?!?

[oasis]

11. McCain's flight missions most likely targeted enemy supply lines. Moore should STFU or

risk Obama having to apologize for his comments.

[JCMach1]

13. Exactly...

[GreenTea]

14. So when when McCain dropped tons of bombs on supply lines ten of thousands of civilians were

NOT killed? He would indiscrimately drop his payload of bombs each day fly back and have a beer as his bobs killed thousand of civilians until the the idiot McCain got shot down and played ball with the enemy to help his own ass....He should of been dodging bombs in the jungle!

Get fucking real and stop living in dreamland!!

[oasis]

15. McCain killed "Tens of thousands of civilians"?? You're the one in need of a reality check.

:eyes:

[GreenTea]

18. Right, he drops bombs only on percise targets not a single person besides the supply lines were

ever hit what fucking fantasy land do you live in? How old are you...do you know anything about the Vietnam war, do you believe republican propaganda that bombs ONLY hit the intended targets 100% of the time?

This is an idiot who finished near last in his class, who doesn't even know that Iraq and Pakistan do not border each other...this idiot can't navigate shit, if not for his daddy pulling the strings for him....McCain has no moral conscience and it should by Moore, me or you be exposed!

[oasis]

23. I served aboard an aircraft carrier during the war. I know a hell of a lot more

about the missions Navy pilots flew than most posters here, certainly more than you.

[GreenTea]

26. How do you know what I did? And what exactly do you know? What did you do in Vietnam?

[DemocracyInaction]

16. Weigh gains vs. loss

Here's the problem. Some people will cheer Moore. But there is a whole shit pot - particularly older voters who will determine this election - who think things like: They all were our enemies so it doesn't make any difference who was killed OR they had slant eyes and deserve to die. In other words, it just ignites the usual racism, etc. and Obama would lose a zillion votes for every one gained. In fact I can't think of even one he would gain because the people this appeals to are already NOT voting McCain.

[JCMach1]

17. That's what happens in war...

and no, I personally do not think that is right by any stretch of the imagination.

How many German civilians died when we stopped Hitler?


Unless we become a neutral, pacifist state we will always need warriors.

Also, does Michael Moore really think we should fight this campaign on the grounds of the culture wars of the 1970's and 1980's. We all know how well that worked out for the Democrats.

Slam McCain with the truly disgusting things he has done. That should keep everyone busy until Nov.

[GreenTea]

19. So dropping bombs and getting shot down makes him what presidential a hero any fucking

fool can be shot down....He didn't care about the innocent people he knew he was inevitably bombing anyone with with tinest of brains knows it's bullshit republican propaganda that bombs ONLY hit the intended targets 100% of the time....

That war (Vietnam) was completely unjust, absolutely no reason for it, so because you say "That's what happens in war' that makes fucked up judgment OK with you? And should NOT be exposed by Moore or anyone else....talk about playing into the republicans hand!

[JCMach1]

21. Calm down- What I am saying is that unless our country has chosen

to be a pacifist state, we will always need people to do the kind of jobs McCain did.

I am not saying he is a hero for doing that.



If you use Moore's logic, Obama would also be murdering innocents by continuing the war in Afghanistan and extending Iraq by one more day after he takes office. Do you believe that?

Or, is war sometimes justified as state policy?

[Union Thug]

22. My concern is that we have little control over the military -

In my opinion, we (collectively - those who fund it and those who participate) are fighting for the elite, for corporations and for the status quo. I won't do it and neither will my kids.

Militaries are necessary evils only so far as the serve the good of all peoples (not the interests of the warring ruling classes) and there is nothing heroic about killing, no matter what the context. But the reality is otherwise - and so, again in my opinion, they are just evil.

[scheming daemons]

24. I'd be happy if MM stayed on the down-low until after the election....

....he does NOT help.... he's a lightning rod.... and he continually gives the right ammunition.



Just shut up until November, Michael.

[Major Hogwash]

25. Not only that, but McCain wants to start another war with Russia!!

McCain is just too old to lead America to their rocking chairs.

[Clintonista2]

27. K&R

[goodgd_yall]

28. Any body "over there" fighting a war

is considered a hero for defending our country's freedom even when "over there" had absolutely no ambitions on the U.S. at all. It's a bunch of hooey, the Vietnam War was brought on by American aggression, but the whole narrative since Reagan has changed and the American people buy it.

[Ex Lurker]

29. x2. The people whom this appeals to are already voting for

Obama. He won't convince any fence sitters with this line of reasoning, and in fact will likely do the opposite. In that regard he's a bit like Ann Coulter--whipping up the base while galvanizing the other side and alienating the middle. The McCain camp probably cheered when they read this.