Proof of the McCain Fraud - Worse than originally thought

[sunnystarr]

Can someone send this to KO so that the 2000 NYT piece can be quoted by MSM? I can't find his email addy.

Several contributors to the comment thread on my first post have pointed to this rather stunning New York Times piece from 2000 in which McCain tells the story - but about someone else!

Many years ago a scared American prisoner of war in Vietnam was tied in torture ropes by his tormentors and left alone in an empty room to suffer through the night. Later in the evening a guard he had never spoken to entered the room and silently loosened the ropes to relieve his suffering. Just before morning, that same guard came back and re-tightened the ropes before his less humanitarian comrades returned. He never said a word to the grateful prisoner, but some months later, on a Christmas morning, as the prisoner stood alone in the prison courtyard, the same good Samaritan walked up to him and stood next to him for a few moments. Then with his sandal, the guard drew a cross in the dirt. Both prisoner and guard both stood wordlessly there for a minute or two, venerating the cross, until the guard rubbed it out and walked away.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/08/the-mccain-cross-in-the-dirt-s.html

[hisownpetard]

1. OMFG! And where's the part where he looks at his bunk and sees the scarlet ribbons??

[sunnystarr]

2. This blows my mind

I don't understand why others don't see the significance that he told the story about someone else in 2000 in the NYT. KO's email addy ... can anyone provide it?

I know I'm really insignificant on here but still ...

[hisownpetard]

22. No, you are not insignificant here. What a thing to say! Here are a few addresses for KO:

mailto:[email protected]

mailto:[email protected]

mailto:[email protected]

[grantcart]

12. ok this is the second time somebody has made reference to the ribbons

what is that about?

[hisownpetard]

21. Nah, it was me (both times). It just struck me as really funny (you know that song about how the

little girl prays for scarlet ribbons but there were none in the entire town, and then when she wakes up she
finds them on her bed?).

[grantcart]

25. lol I have no capacity for remembering the lyrics to any song

none lol

[hisownpetard]

30. I don't know why it struck me so funny - I guess just picturing McCone with little red ribbons

tied onto his swirly-do.

:hi: :shrug:

[thereismore]

3. Crucifix-gate. Why would he tell this tall tale in 2000 about somebody else? Liar. nt

[The Icon Painter]

4. Poetic License?

It reads to me as though he is talking about himself in a figurative manner. This is not an uncommon ploy.

[Sulawesi]

5. this is sarcastic right? i find this incredibly damning

[quiet.american]

7. More like License to Lie. nt

[rucky]

20. Ask the people whose heartstrings he was pulling on.

certainly not ours, but I wouldn't take too kindly to it.

[Heather MC]

41. It just seems like there must be a fix in place for him to win, because

the repukes are not even trying to cover their butts anymore. It's either that, or McCain Really is stupider than Dubuya

[hisownpetard]

23. No, he did not say it in an allegorical way but stated it as fact. Even got a little choked up at

the thought.

[alcibiades_mystery]

36. He's definitely talking about himself in the piece

DUers are making fools of themselves on this. If he was talking about somebody else, there would be some signal to that effect ("I later talked to this prisoner..." or some such). He's clearly describing himself in the third person for poetic effect.

[WinkyDink]

40. Has McCain ever before shown he has a literary type of mind?

Other than reading of someone ELSE'S experiences?

[alcibiades_mystery]

43. You've no doubt done an extensive textual analysis of his entire oeuvre to solidify your case?

The context makes it clear. He's talking about himself in the third person.

There's plenty of good evidence that this bullshit story is entirely fabricated. This is not a piece of good evidence, precisely because it requires the kind of silly interpretive leaps that you're making.

[WinkyDink]

39. Riiiiight.

[Terre]

6. Wait a sec

I think this was the speech, or something like that, he gave at during a Reagan Prayer Breakfast in 2000? I read about this quote yesterday, and my impression was that McCain was speaking about himself, though in the 3rd person.

[Sparkly]

10. That's how it sounds to me.

Was this the first time he told this story?

[Terre]

13. No, this way of "speaking" in the 3rd person

was either at a campaign stump speech in 2000, according to this blog:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.war.vietnam/browse_thread/thread/1987dce0c97e02c7

I thought it was a Reagan Prayer breakfast. If I can find it again, I'll post here.

Anyway, he originally told the story in 1st person in his book "Faith of my Fathers" in 1999.

[Duncan]

15. Thats what it sounds like,

but it sounds like the details changed also.

[sandnsea]

17. Obviously

Although it is curious that it took 20 years for any inkling of this story to come to light in the first place.

[Bucky]

8. Comedian Sinbad was in the same POW camp and says he saw no such thing.

[C_U_L8R]

9. If McCain's yarn proves to be made of vapor

then he may not make it to his own convention.

Way to swiftboat yourself, McDoofus

[npincus]

11. McCain's "cross' tale is his HRC's "sniper fire" confabulation

wouldn't cha say?

[ContinentalOp]

14. As a non-christian I find this whole story baffling. Even if it were true is it a good story?

I just don't get it. Do christians eat this stuff up?

So one guy is imprisoning the other but it's ok because he draws a cross in the sand with his toe to secretly reveal his christianity. And they both stand there and stare at it slack jawed like "hey man, wow check out that cross you drew on the ground. amazing." Or does this mean that McCain is christ or something because of his suffering?

I just really don't get it. Even if this were true how dumb do you have to be to find this nonsense to be "profound"?

[AllentownJake]

28. It was the compassion of loosening the ropes

and you'd think if the person was a good Christian they wouldn't be a POW camp guard anyway. In order to do that you had to be sadistic and torture people on orders.

McCain stole this story from a Russian author but the Russian's author story was more plausible as it was a fellow prisoner who drew the cross when the author was about to commit suicide by trying to escape.

[Barack_America]

16. Yep. Was just reading that. NYT link here:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9904EFDE1239F93AA15751C0A9669C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

[Phx_Dem]

18. McCain doesn't refer to himself

in the third person during the entire 2000 exchange, so why would he do so ONLY when speaking of an event so personal and memorable to him that he says, in the faith forum, "I'll never forget that moment." Something stinks.

I'm assuming that the word "handle" in this version is simply a typo because he called it a "sandle" in the 2000 version.

Faith Forum Transcript:

14 MINUTES, OUTSIDE MY CELL. HE CAME WALKING UP. HE STOOD

15 THERE FOR A MINUTE AND WITH HIS HANDLE ON THE DIRT IN THE

16 COURTYARD HE DREW A CROSS AND HE STOOD THERE AND A MINUTE

17 LATER, HE RUBBED IT OUT AND WALKED AWAY. FOR A MINUTE

18 THERE, THERE WAS JUST TWO CHRISTIANS WORSHIPPING TOGETHER.

19 I'LL NEVER FORGET THAT MOMENT SO EVERY DAY --

[Barack_America]

24. That's an excellent point. nt

[highplainsdem]

19. For the third time here today -- McCain was TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF IN THIRD PERSON.

My God, you'd think people had NEVER heard a politician talk about himself in third person.

I guess you're all going to be horribly confused if Obama ever says anything like, "Years ago a state senator from Illinois gave a keynote address..." You'll probably be running around trying to figure out which state senator he meant.


Sigh.

Here's a link to a blog of Jake Tapper's from last month where he quotes that and mentions McCain is talking about himself in third person:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/07/mccains-new-wil.html

Here's a link to the NYT piece, and it should be clear to anyone who knows how to read that McCain is talking about himself in third person:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9904EFDE1239F93AA15751C0A9669C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all


McCain may or may not have invented or plagiarized that story. There may or may not be proof of that. I don't know.

But I do know that misreading a speech where he's clearly talking about himself in third person and calling it proof he was talking about "someone else" makes the person offering it as proof look very foolish.

[AllentownJake]

26. They attacked Kerry on his purple hearts that he actually earned

So us attacking McCain on his war stories that seem to be false isn't any different. They opened the door for this. Fuck them.

[tomg]

29. Going after them

for lies is legitimate ( more than that, it's a public service), but the 2000 speech McCain made makes it very clear that he is speaking about himself. Do I think the story is bullshit and that it never happened. Yes. Is it plagiarized. In a sense, yes ( as a college teacher, I have found plagiarism is a sometimes tricky issue). But the above citation as "proof" simply does not hold up. There is a very high-level of circumstantial evidence that this is cribbed ( and if not directly from Solzhenitsyn then from any of a wide range of Christian "inspirational" literature), but the NY Times article isn't proof. To use it actually undercuts the charges.

[JackORoses]

31. you sure work hard defending the McAnus

how do you explain that McCain claims the rope-loosener and cross-drawer were the same guard,
yet he was transferred to a different camp in the interceding time?

He is a liar. You really need to just accept it.

[tomg]

34. I think Highplainsdem's point is

that one of the pieces of support used in the case is the speech where McCain talks about himself in the third person. If you have a very good circumstantial case about something ( say 99% as in this case) but then use something to support your case ( in this case the speech he gave noted in the Times) that not only does not prove your case but that also shows the lines are clearly taken out of context and the way they are used in your argument misrepresents the case, then it is going to undercut how others view the rest of the argument. It's a basic tenet in writing an argument and in doing basic research. I teach this stuff to my first-year college writing classes every semester.

McCain is clearly full of shit on this. Ms. Cryptkeeper ripped off recipes. He ripped off Wikipedia for his information on Georgia. Even if it isn't Solzenhitsyn who was ripped off, the general outline of the anecdote forms a pretty common trope in fundy literature. Misusing the lines from the speech only gives him a way to sidestep the charge. That the incident first appears in "his" 1999 book just as he is beginning to make his first run for the presidency, that he uses the anecdote publicly for the first time in the speech in the Times where he is specifically courting the right-wing fundy vote ( read the rest of it - the "maverick"'s pandering is disgusting), that he has made hate-filled comments about Vietnamese ( which undercuts the anecdotes presentation of this guard as a compassionate person) suggests he was plagiarizing, lying and pandering as early as 1999. That could prove far more damaging in the long run. Sorry to go on, but I think Highplainsdem has a good point.
edit: three typos -

[FogerRox]

33. Yeah sure, what ever.

[alcibiades_mystery]

37. Totally agree

I'm often astounded by people's inability to read. In this case, it seems a very deliberate inability. He's clearly referring to himself in the third person (although that's a weird enough thing to do for a story like this).

[WinkyDink]

42. USUALLY, the 3rd-person usage is finally REVEALED to be the speaker; e.g., "My friends, I was that

prisoner."

INSTEAD, McCain merely allows the reader/listener to INFER that. Plausible deniability.

[alcibiades_mystery]

44. That's true

[McCamy Taylor]

27. Do not talk about any story that uses "McCain" and "POW"---it only helps McCain.

This distraction was planted by the RNC to keep us from focusing on the fact that McCain and Warren cheated

[JackORoses]

32. sure it was. you are not going to squash this.

McAnus + Cross = LIAR & Plagiarist

[symbolman]

35. Lets not forget the larger issue

that McCain Tells his story of WOE and the SUPPORTS Torturing Others Now..

Will HE loosen someone's Ropes and draw a cross in the dirt with His Toe? Fuck No, he's no Christian.

What Would McCain Do? Tighten the Ropes. :)

They should be hammering him on that point, makes the story meaningless...

[Enrique]

38. he's talking about himself, and we're looking desperate

I'm beginning to think this might be a set-up, let's be careful.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/07/mccains-new-wil.html

July 08, 2008 10:58 AM

To many observers of Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., it has seemed like a sea change.

Running for president in 2000, McCain often seemed so uncomfortable discussing his 5 1/2 years as a P.O.W. while campaigning, on one occasion he even told a story about himself in the third person.

"Many years ago, a scared American prisoner of war in Vietnam was tied in torture robes by his tormenters and left alone in an empty room to suffer through the night," McCain told a crowd in Virginia Beach on February 28, 2000. "Later in the evening, a guard he had never spoken to entered the room and silently loosened the ropes to relieve his suffering. Just before morning, that same guard came back and re-tightened the ropes before his less humanitarian comrades returned. He never said a word to the grateful prisoner, but some months later on a Christmas morning as the prisoner stood alone in the prison courtyard, the same Good Samaritan walked up to him and stood next to him for a few moments. Then with his sandal, the guard drew a cross in the dirt. Both prisoner and guard stood wordlessly there for a minute or two venerating the cross until the guard rubbed it out and walked away."

Concluded McCain: "This is my faith, the faith that unites and never divides, the faith that bridges unbridgeable gaps in humanity."

That "scared American prisoner of war in Vietnam" to whom McCain referred eight years ago was himself.

[SoonerPride]

45. It was a made up story

It never happened to him.

period.

[rndmprsn]

46. K&R