Anyone Know The Odds A North Vietnamese Guard Would Be Christian (circa 1970)

[KittyWampus]

just curious.

I'm not sure how to even call that info up on Google about the area McCain was held or even figure the statistical probability even if I had some data.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

1. There were a lot of Catholics in N. Vietnam before the war.

A large number of them moved to the South, but not all of them.

[Avalux]

2. He's either a liar or he has dementia or both.

Either way, nothing he says can be trusted and he is not presidential material.

[Bozita]

10. deMcCaintia?

[Captain Hilts]

3. Good. The French brought Catholicism there. nt

[Bucky]

4. The Jesuits aggressively missionized the far east for centuries.

Southeast Asia was one place where (unlike China and Japan) Christian missionaries never faced organized repression or retaliation. They were more effective in South Vietnam, where the leading families were as likely to be Catholic as Buddhist; but a Christian foot soldier in the North is far from being an unlikely occurrance.

[KittyWampus]

5. this ends up being a great history lesson!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

9. But a Christian foot soldier being a guard in a N. Vietnamese POW camp IS unlikely. nt

[Bucky]

11. Do you have any idea how the NVA did its recruitment?

North Vietnam had something close to 100% draft rate. They were fighting the world's biggest superpower with only begrudging & sparse aid from the Soviets. They brought in every available able bodied young man they could get.

No, if there were any 20 something Christian men in North Vietnam, they ended up in uniform and most of them knew enough to hide their faith.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

13. You don't pick just any old body to guard POWs.

You would want ardent loyalists.

If you want to keep defending McWarHero for his obvious plagiarism of the story, go ahead. But don't expect me to believe that the guard ranks of POW camps in North Vietnam were crawling with closet Christians.

[Bucky]

18. You're arguing from logic. I'm arguing from historical facts.

No, I wouldn't personally pick just anyone to guard POWs. But then again, I'm not part of a corrupt communist regime running a revolution in which people reflexively lie to avoid persecution facing the task of fielding an army against a super power plus diverting some troops to guard thousands of POWs. One could just as persuasively argue that you want your best, most committed troops up front fighting the American, Austalian, and RVN forces and would therefor relegate your ranks and file conscripts to the less demanding duty of guarding the POWs (which in military terms is a less demanding duty).

You're talking about abstract qualifications for an ideal prison guard without any specific knowledge of the historical conditions and social limitations the NVA faced. In the real world, things that ought to be sometimes fall between the cracks.

[cliffordu]

6. I don't know that the North Vietnamese army would have allowed a Catholic

guard to work with Americans......

[mrreowwr_kittty]

8. Bingo!

I'm pretty sure there would have been some kind of vetting process.

[Bucky]

12. Unless, of course, that Christian soldier knew enough to hide his religion

Commies and Catholics didn't get along too good back then. Any kid drafted into the NVA would be smart to keep it quiet (which the Bible says you're supposed to do, anyway).

[mrreowwr_kittty]

7. Not high.

There was a French presense there for a long time, but my understanding is that the only French speakers or Christians were concentrated among the wealthy Vietnamese. The American-picked leader who was running the country in the 50s was a devout Catholic, and hated by most of the people.

So while there were some Christians there they were probably a) from a rich background and therefore hated and b) not bloody likely to be working as a guard over POWs in a North Vietnamese prison camp.

[grantcart]

14. That is not the question

The question is what is the likelyhood that any guard would break solidarity to such an extent to endanger everything on such a purely symbolic level.

The odds: none.

Even if the guard was a Catholic (and I met some who were Viet Cong) he might be compelled to show some consideration to a prisoner because of his faith but he wouldn't be drawing symbols in the sand, unless of course he had read Solzeneitzen.


More basic questions -

How likely would it be that the guard would have successfully concealed his faith from the NVA, who would have happily transferred him elsewhere rather than put him in front of Americans.

How likely would it be that a committed Catholic would have been picked for his sadism to be a prison guard?

How likely would it be that a prison guard who is a secret Catholic with Sadistic tendencies get picked to be a prison guard and then share a symbolic drawing moment in the sand with a single POW who then happens to be the one POW who runs for President 40 years later.

If you believe that these are all likely then you qualify for a free tour of my open house for bridges I have to sell quick - bring your check book.

[KittyWampus]

15. very good post. this ends up being kind of an interesting historical topic

[cliffordu]

16. Can we flood the MSM with these talking points???

You have it down, Grantcart. Ya got mad skeelz.

Bravo!

[Arkansas Granny]

17. Wiki has an entry about Christianity in North Vietnam that might give a little insight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Vietnam

From another article:

In 1955 approximately 600,000 Catholics remained in the North after an estimated 650,000 had fled to the South. That year the Liaison Committee of Patriotic and Peace-Loving Catholics was set up in the North by the communist regime in an attempt to win over those Catholics who had chosen to remain (but were slower than non-Catholics to embrace the regime) and to "reintegrate" them into northern society. The church was allowed to retain its link with the Vatican, although all foreign priests had either fled south or been expelled, and normal church activities were permitted to continue, albeit in the shadow of a campaign of harassment. The appearance of normalcy was misleading, however. The church was stripped of its traditional autonomy in running schools, hospitals, and orphanages. Its traditional right to own property was abolished, and priests and nuns were required to devote part of their time to productive labor in agriculture. Nevertheless, officials claimed that Catholics had complete freedom of worship as long as they did not question the principle of collective socialism, spurn manual labor, or jeopardize the internal and external security of the state.

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-14661.html

[Bucky]

22. Thank you for this. Very helpful post!

[dbonds]

19. Buddhist are historically less violent than christians.

I'm not sure being a christian or a buddhist would disqualify them as guards, but they would want someone loyal to them. I don't think you can make any inference on the story from this angle. I don't believe the story, but not because of this point.

[pscot]

20. By the mid-1950's communists had consolidated

control in north Vietnam, and there was an exodus to the south, of about a million people seeking intellectual and religious freedom. (Wikipedia, various articles) The communists were tough on dissenters. Indoctrination was pretty general. It's kind of hard to believe in the possibility of a christisn prison guard in yhe late '60's, unless it was some kind of punishment.

[Bucky]

23. Posting word for word what Arkansas Granny already posted before you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Vietnam

From another article:

In 1955 approximately 600,000 Catholics remained in the North after an estimated 650,000 had fled to the South. That year the Liaison Committee of Patriotic and Peace-Loving Catholics was set up in the North by the communist regime in an attempt to win over those Catholics who had chosen to remain (but were slower than non-Catholics to embrace the regime) and to "reintegrate" them into northern society. The church was allowed to retain its link with the Vatican, although all foreign priests had either fled south or been expelled, and normal church activities were permitted to continue, albeit in the shadow of a campaign of harassment. The appearance of normalcy was misleading, however. The church was stripped of its traditional autonomy in running schools, hospitals, and orphanages. Its traditional right to own property was abolished, and priests and nuns were required to devote part of their time to productive labor in agriculture. Nevertheless, officials claimed that Catholics had complete freedom of worship as long as they did not question the principle of collective socialism, spurn manual labor, or jeopardize the internal and external security of the state.

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-14661.html

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

21. Slightly higher than the odds McCain is a Christian (Circa 2008)