If Obama really wants to alienate Hillary voters -- and millions of other women --

[pnwmom]

naming a pro-life person like Kaine for V.P. would certainly be one way.

Please, please, not Tim Kaine.

[Indiana_Dem]

1. MT Gov. Brian Schweitzer would be better...

Even Bayh is pro-choice in his voting record.

[MercutioATC]

24. Yes!!

Schweitzer is our best option, IMO.

[Ramonna Villota]

28. Bug

Do you know how many times I have wiped my screen thinking there is a bug on it?


:)

[MercutioATC]

34. Me too, actually..

...the hazard of being obnoxious...

[gateley]

48. Here's another vote for Schweitzer! Are you listening, Barack? nt

[tokenlib]

57. Me too.!!!!. Schweitzer quotes would have people applauding...

The way he was so blunt about energy on Ed Schultz the other day had me laughing in appreciation.

[book_worm]

59. What is Schwitzer's views and record on choice?

[Indiana_Dem]

61. Not sure but I think pro-choice.

He has a libertarian streak in him but so far it seems left libertarian which would mean he would be more pro-choice, pro-gun...you know, more freedoms without the government making those decisions for you.

[DangerousRhythm]

73. Yeah, I'm with everyone here about Schweitzer.

I don't mind Kaine either but I do think Schweitzer is the better, more "out of left field" pick. :)

Has anyone in the MSM even mentioned him once?

[Indiana_Dem]

77. Well, Charlie Rose asked him in an interview if he was interested. nt

[rosesaylavee]

2. Bobby Kennedy would be a better choice n/t

[mcctatas]

3. I am at a point with many Hillary voters where I am pretty sure

anything he does (other than pick hillary) and anyone he picks (other than hillary) will alienate her voters. As far as "other women", since I fall into that category myself, I am relatively comfortable with whoever is chosen by the democratic nominee, after all, it's not as if the veep sets policy or makes SCOTUS appointments....

[KittyWampus]

8. That's it exactly. It's hard to respect DU'ers who pick apart good Democrats

[jobycom]

15. Do we need this shit?

I mean, my first response was to say "It's hard to respect DUers who aren't Democrats," to which you would reply something just as snarky. It's bullshit. Why go there? Whether Kaine is pro-choice or believes in limiting choice is fundamental to the Democratic Party, so discussing it is not "picking." If you've got a point involving Kaine or his position on abortion, make it, but just hurling insults gets us nowhere but in the tank.

And I will say it after all. Anyone who starts that crap isn't a Democrat, and I no longer believe the people trying to tear apart the Clinton supporters are Democrats. They are here for purposes other than electing Obama.

[mcctatas]

22. broad brush much?

no one needs a primaries redux, there are people who are Clinton supporters who will vote for Obama, people who are Obama supporters who have no beef with Clinton or her supporters, and there are people who are sick to death of thinly veiled threats to take their ball and go home from the die-hards in the Clinton camp....

Despite your beliefs, most of them are good Democrats and grown up enough to stop broad brushing anyone they disagree with.....

[pnwmom]

42. I was not making a veiled threat or any kind of threat.

I was making the observation that it would be a stupid decision that many women would be disappointed by (whether or not they were Hillary supporters) and I hope he doesn't make it.

[mcctatas]

62. Didn't say you were....

only that people have...

again and again and again ad infinitum!

[grantcart]

26. wrong place

[MonkeyFunk]

21. I know!

If you can believe it, people here even pick apart Bill and Hillary Clinton!

Shocking, I know!

[pnwmom]

35. I know many Hillary supporters who are happily supporting Obama now.

But that could change if he chose a pro-life V.P.

[beltanefauve]

51. Anti-choice

When you say "pro-life" you let the RW frame the debate.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

72. Another argument that makes no sense. They would not vote for Obama

because he chooses a pro-life or psuedo "pro-life" VP even though he himself is committed to choice. However, they would "take their ball and go vote for McSame" who would most likely overturn Roe. Which one is more of a risk? Voting for Obama who is fervently pro-choice or McSame who will work to overturn Roe?

Look at Obama's record on choice. Has he not received one of the highest ratings from Planned Parenthood in the Senate? Look at his IL voting record? Again, he's committed to choice. If he picks a VP who is personally against abortion (again, most people are), but would NOT support overturning Roe, they argue that they'd go vote for McSame, Nader or stay home? It doesn't make sense at all.

So when we Obama primary supporters accuse them of having sour grapes, what we mean is that the decision to vote against their best interests doesn't make sense just because their candidate didn't win, or because Obama doesn't choose her.

[Alexander]

4. We've been through this "concern" before - and Kaine has been pro-choice as governor.

Certain people who never really supported Obama are trying to attack him by proxy though potential VP picks.

It's not working. We are wise to this scheme.

[emilyg]

43. Bull.

You are not wise. Just paranoid.

[Alexander]

55. Well I know for sure you were certainly never an Obama supporter.

So you're proving my point right now.

Kaine has governed pro-choice.

Show me one case where he hasn't. I dare you.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[emilyg]

75. You think? Obviously not.

I have yet to bother to look up what a Puma is.

[KittyWampus]

5. this woman appreciates Kaine's work with poor men AND women. He has a right to be pro-life

and I respect his views since he doesn't force them on anyone POLITICALLY.

I hope Kaine is top of the list.

Fuck the DU'ers who are too stupid to understand the difference between someone who has personal views that they don't insist on imposing on others and those people who do.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

60. That's the thing. People call him "anti-choice"

But can't point to evidence of it in his political record. It's based on statements of personal opinion he made or the suggestion that he may or may not have belonged to Democrats For Life.

Personally, all things being equal, I'd prefer to vote for someone who is pro-choice in word and deed. But all things never are equal so I'll take the personally-opposed-to-abortion-but-doesn't-vote-against-choice Dem to what the Republican alternative usually is.

[jobycom]

6. He knows all that. It's just the media being the media, trying to raise blood pressures

and create reasons for debate. Obama's not going to pick until just before the convention, for the simple reason that he can get more airplay by dragging this out.

Meanwhile, he's got favors to repay. He lets the names of Sam Nunn and Tim Kaine float around as possible VPs. Nunn's speaking and book fees go up. Kaine's numbers go up in his state. It's just a way to boost them for boosting him.

Not saying he will or won't pick Kaine. Just that he's not picking yet. He wouldn't leak the name the way it's been leaked if he were.

I think. :)

[chimpymustgo]

7. And an unknown, inexperienced pro-lifer at that.

[MichiganVote]

9. Oh, so now only Hillary Clinton supporters are prochoice? Come on. This is stupid.

[Whisp]

10. Please, please, not this shit again.

why not we jump off that bridge when we get to it. you first.

:(

[ecstatic]

11. Will those alienated voters vote for McShame?

:eyes:

I'm sure I don't have to remind anyone of his choice record.

[Olney Blue]

18. God, I hope not.

But I had an alarming dinner tonight with an old friend I had not see in a while. She is a Dem who is thinking about voting for McCain.
I pleaded with her to think of what McCain would do to the SCOTUS.

[pnwmom]

41. I doubt it. But they might not campaign for Obama, or donate to his campaign,

or otherwise support him to the degree that they might have. Or they might just stay home.

In other words, he might be paying for some Catholic votes with some women's votes.

[laugle]

80. It seems to me that if

Obama picks a pro-lifer, he is courting the evangelicals that are not happy with McCain. That seems pretty obvious to me.

If this is his first big decision
and he chooses Kaine, he's blown it, big time IMO!

[TankLV]

78. No - they will simply not vote for ANYONE...there is another "choice" you know...

I will NEVER vote for a repuke. NEVER.

Obama is growing on me - but I can understand people who don't like him at all...and that does NOT mean they will go and vote for a repuke. You don't know shit...

[Barack_America]

12. I'm a woman and 100% Pro-choice. And Tim Kaine is my top pick for VP.

The facts show that he has supported Roe V. Wade as governor.

Your "concerns" don't speak for me.

[Motown_Johnny]

13. I'm a Hillary hater, and a man, but I tend to agree. With the focus on the SCOTUS, a pro-life

Veep just one heartbeat away is a bad idea.

Also he is pretty young. (50?) So in 8 years he may be the presumptive nominee.


I like Tim Kaine but you have a valid point, even if you do think the entire world revolves around Hillary

[pnwmom]

37. Even if I "think the entire world revolves around Hillary"?

I remained neutral throughout the primaries, and I'm happy to support Obama now.

But I would be very disappointed if he chose a pro-life V.P. when there are so many better choices out there.

[Skittles]

63. please stop saying pro-life

it's ANTI-CHOICE

[NYC_SKP]

14. The "Kaine as VP" topic was covered quite well yesterday.....

Some of those threads were locked but others are still open if anyone wants to mess with the non-topic.

[SwampG8r]

30. niceduzy ya got there!

[NYC_SKP]

33. I thank my dog for my duzy

and raccoons and cat asses everywhere...

and swampg8r...

[SwampG8r]

47. i still feel robbed that week

i had one about the guy who wrote the hokey pokey dying
and someone FINALLY asked about why it was so bad

and my answer was
becauseit was so hard to bury him we put his left arm in we pulled his left arm out i swear to god i thought we would never get him in the ground

got disqualified on a technicality

btw thats from an old steven wright bit

[NYC_SKP]

52. I think I saw that, or another

legs in and out? not sure.

That is funny though...where is steven wright, still around?

[pnwmom]

64. There are 100,000 people on these boards.

Many of them did not discuss this yesterday, including me.

And no one forced you to go to this thread today.

[Colobo]

16. Please... stop it. Obama should pick whoever he likes

not necessarily who Hillary supporters like or support.

[NYC_SKP]

19. I keep looking at this post, the subject line and comment.

And I'm concluding that it's nothing but a shit stir. Worse than pointless, it's almost a threat.

Dammit. I don't see where it breaks a rule, but it sure isn't constructive.

[BlooInBloo]

20. Defeating Obama is Clinton supporters' Vietnam - it's never over for them.

[SwampG8r]

29. it is sure as hell flame bait

[SwampG8r]

56. like the rules were carefully studied and parsed

im seeing an awful lot of it lately

[Renew Deal]

17. Quit your whining already

Seriously. Stop with the whining and empty threats.

[PM7nj]

23. You're a day late. nt

[melody]

25. The election of a Democrat is far more important than the VP identity

Elections always require compromise. Successful elections anyway.

[grantcart]

27. No one should hurl insults.

They shouldn't hurl them at the Clinton supporters.

They shouldn't hurl them at the Clinton surrogates.

They shouldn't hurl them at the Obama supporters.

They shouldn't hurl them at the Obama surrogates, including people under consideration for VP.


Factual comments about VP nominees should be welcomed.

Care should be given not to accept MSM charachterizations of the candidate.

Because fights over particular bills and legislation may be mixed with local politics I think extra weight should be given to the progressive organizations in the area, like the State Planned Parenthood or the State Gay/Lesbian Alliance.

One interesting issue that came out yesterday was a very informative exchange between ruggerson and myself;

In this thread he found a citation, that may or may not reflect his current thinking, that showed that Governor Kaine had an objection to federally funded support of stem cell research. I am very glad that ruggerson found that and that he presented it accurately and without prejudice : http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6557509

In another important issue was whether Governor Keane is anti gay. I think his record on this is very strong even though some statements he made were not progressive when he ran for LT Governor in a campaign against one of the worst homophobes in the country. There are article after article from gay newspapers praising his victory but there are statements from that campaign that are used against Kaine. When he was Governor there was a very anti-gay ammendment proposed against gay marriage. The gay community was split (for strategic and legal reasons) and the majority wanted him to sign the bill but use his office to control the language of the ballot issue so that it would improve the chances of winning. A couple of outsiders wrote scathing articles against Kaine for not vetoing this ammendment, despite the fact that both the Republican and Democratic gay/lesbian lobby wanted him to sign it for reasons stated above. Here is the irony, at some point the strategy changed because it appears that he in fact vetoed it. So many of the citations used against him on the issue were in fact wrong.

What is clear to me is that in terms of both women and gay/lesbian issues Kaine was in perfect harmony with what the local Democrats and Planned Parenthood wanted and a call to VA Planned Parenthood confirmed that.

Here is the exchange with ruggerson http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6554468.

I think that ruggerson did a real service in investigating these issues and I learned a lot from him.

This was his final statement after a long night of exchanging posts which I agree with completely.


from the thread quoted above

quote
From what I'm reading
he seems like a sincere, honest guy with some conservative Catholic beliefs that have, at times, shadowed his decision making. I don't think he's any more anti gay than a lot of Democratic governors, though his position on civil unions is out of the mainstream (if it's true that he opposes them.)

The stem cell thing does concern me. There are millions and millions of good people waiting to be cured. I hope that he has changed positions on this, or would change were he to be on a national ticket.
unquote



Nobody here is going to have any influence on the selection of VP. I intend to approach it with an open mind but it is important that questions about his/her stand on a wider range of issues should be looked at.

That process should not be a mask for a proxy attack on Senator Obama.

[SwampG8r]

31. i and i bet half the people here

wish i was half as intellegent and eloquent and informed as you are


honest to god
you are my hero grantcart

[pnwmom]

38. What do you mean "a proxy attack on Obama"?

I was never a Hillary supporter -- I never took a position during the primary because I liked all the top candidates.

But I -- and other pro-choice women --WILL be disappointed if Obama chooses Kaine, when there are so many better choices out there.

[grantcart]

45. There are people who want to have a serious discussion

and those that are looking for a reason to take out their venom on Obama by attacking whoever he selects. It was pretty obvious last night.



Question Do you know why Virginia Planned Parenthood is so enthusiastic about Governor Kaine?

[davidpdx]

58. Grant, you are wise beyond your years

I couldn't have said it any better. People are free to disagree, but bashing is uncalled for. Yesterday it was the bashing of Kaine for supposedly being anti-gay. This is getting ridiculous.

[crimsonblue]

32. what would picking sebelius do?

I'm honestly interested in finding out what Hillary supporters would think of that....

[pnwmom]

39. I personally would much prefer Sebelius.

But I can't speak for anyone but myself. (And I never was a Hillary partisan -- I liked all of the top candidates.)

[Imagevision]

36. Obama will lose 3-4 million Hillary voters, no biggie as I predict a landslide easily anyway

[Thrill]

40. So who are they going to vote for McCain? I fail to see how that helps them

[Imagevision]

44. Actually the 3-4 million Hillary Supporters seem to be repugs who switched to Hil, they

have the repug mentality/dispostion, listening to them earlier on Winamp radio, bitch-bitch-bitch, that's about it...

[HowHasItComeToThis]

46. THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG HERE...........

[babylonsister]

49. You're kidding me, right? Ugh. nt

[gateley]

50. Why does it matter if the VP is pro choice or not? He has no say in the law -

he can't vote.

[Bunny]

65. "No say in the law"???

You do realize that the VP casts the tie-breaking vote in the Senate, don't you?

[gateley]

68. Honestly, I didn't know that. Or forgot. Oops. Thanks! nt

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Prophet 451]

54. Um, he's not pro-life

At least, not in the usual sense. What Kaine has said (and I know little about him beyond this) is that he is personally opposed to abortion but that it is not his place to enforce his personal views on the country as a whole. In short, he's opposed to abortion in his own life but not intending to force that view on everyone else. That's exactly the same position John Kerry took.

Now, there may be good reason to oppose a Kaine pick (like I said, I know little about him) but, from his public statements, he's not interested in overturning Roe.

EDIT: Incidently, I would agree that there are scores of candidates for VP who I think would be better (hell, pretty much any of the other primary contenders would work for me, as would Barbara Boxer).

[TheKentuckian]

66. I don't see why we must be so ideological

It's asking a whole lot of anyone to not only vote pro choice but actually being open to it personally.

I vote choice because I don't believe it's my call and it's not my body but I certainly believe at some point it's killing a kid and never want to be part of that. If that's your choice then I believe you have free will over your body but don't insist everyone actually agree and be 110% comfortable with your choice.

This entire debate pisses me off as a wedge issue and I believe that a reasoned compromise is in order to defuse this war so we can actually focus on issues that affect us all as government is intended to do, control what an individual cannot. I'm for doing away with partial birth, except in physical health situations and researching when brain activity starts to divide between fetus and baby. so that woman and society will be able to deal with facts rather than hyperbole. I think this knowledge alone would settle much of the debate in the public arena and in the hearts and minds of individuals.

I'm not really hearing the right thing from either those who want to demand cells to become a person in a woman whether she wants to allow that to happen or not or to pretend it's not a person just because mom hasn't delivered quite yet. Certainly at minimum we should say that if a child can be induced and be viable then it should be born rather than terminated. You can tell jr he can't stay any longer but you don't have the right to sign a death warrant and neither does any medical doctor, if the kid is viable, it's a citizen and due protection under the law.

Seriously, not to be an ass but even 6 months or so gives you enough time to decide if you want to allow a baby to form or not. If you haven't made up your mind by then, it's apparently not that big of a problem. It's like evicting someone in the last month of their lease even though you see their stuff packed up.

The stem cell stance however, makes me uncomfortable though because it points to simple mindedness and appears science-phobic. I try, if at all possible to judge big picture over any one issue and would like to know more about how Kaine views and science and how much he values exploration of knowledge overall before making a snap judgment on one stance when the man may have a respectable world view.

[Prophet 451]

81. Just one thing

Abortions done in the last three months of pregnancy are virtually always done because of some big medical issue in mother or child that hasn't shown up until then. Here (Britain), that's the only legal reason for aborting in the last three months: That continuing the pregnancy would endanger the mother's life or that the child would die at or shortly after birth anyway.

[barack the house]

67. I think he's told folks to say it's kaine to throw people off the scent.. I think we don't know who

it is.

[Alter Ego]

69. Tim Kaine is personally pro-life, but from what I've read his record

is very pro-choice friendly--such as his blocking funding for "abstinence-only" programs in favor of those that teach contraception as well.

I'm not sure how it would be the end of the world unless people didn't bother to pay attention.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

71. Here's what I don't understand about the whiny Hillary supporters...

Evan Bayh who is just about as Republican-lite as you can get, is a major Hillary surrogate and supporter. He is very socially conservative; if I'm correct, I believe he is as close to pro-life as one can get. Tim Kaine, on the other hand, has asserted that he is *personally* against abortion (as are most people), but would not overturn Roe v. Wade. There's much more of a risk with Bayh who is definitely more hawkish than with Kaine.

I think this has more to do with sour grapes and the fact that Kaine was a very early and staunch supporter of Obama and the Hillary-ites still can't seem to get over the primaries.

There's nothing wrong with Tim Kaine. Even Rachel Maddow who has bashed Bayh and Nunn applauded Kaine for being more progressive. He is a civil rights and liberties champion and has been for his entire life. He speaks fluent Spanish and has been very popular with Latinos. He's also against the death penalty, unlike Mr. Bayh.

[Crowdance]

74. Agree. And it's not just about this election.

Running Kaine sends the message that this party will not fight for women's reproductive rights, that those rights are disposable in service to "winning" at all costs. These women may be lost to the party for good.

[Virginia Dare]

76. If the Hillary voters and millions of other women..

want to alienate themselves, then they can sit this one out or vote for McCain. That would make sense. Kaine would NOT roll back productive rights.

[Milo_Bloom]

79. Better someone who is personally pro life BUT VOTED pro choice like Kaine

than other's who claim to be anti-war, BUT VOTED pro war.

Edwards, Biden, Clinton all fit that bill quite well.