PUMA group plans to protest Dean's tour across the South to register voters.

[madfloridian]

I just a blog search to see how much this was being covered. Was surprised to find this site called Clinton Democrats pushing the protests against the party.

Action: Protest Dean on Southern Bus Tour!

Notice how he is starting in Crawford, TX. Now, I don’t like Bush, but this “in-your-face jerk” politics was supposed to be over with. This proves yet again the poor judgment of Howard Dean and the DNC. Thank God he never became president. Crass.

Howard Dean to Take Bus Tour of the South

WASHINGTON — Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean is embarking on a voter registration bus tour he hopes will help push Dixie to the Democrats.

Dean’s trip begins Thursday in President Bush’s hometown of Crawford, Texas, riding an eye-catching bus wrapped in the red, white and blue of presidential candidate Barack Obama’s campaign logo.

They list the intinerary. The comments are gross. How does the party address stuff like this which may or not be a group of Democrats?

[SwampG8r]

1. we dont rate a drive by in florida?

damn it!

[madfloridian]

3. I don't think Dean would come to Florida.

Even the Democrats get ugly when he comes here for fundraisers. Maybe someday they will get over it, but a few won't let it go.

[gateley]

2. Who ARE these people?

They are full of hatred and condemnation for everyone other than Hillary. She didn't engender that - and she's not encouraging it. What is their problem? Dean? They're down on DEAN?

[SwampG8r]

4. lets all meet the bus in savannah

thats one hot party town
i love me some savannah

[madfloridian]

5. I mostly agree.

I don't think people realize how wide-spread it is.

[newmajority]

7. The PUMA's who are "Democrats" in any capacity at all are DLC.

And the DLC has always despised Howard Dean. Even more so, now that they blame him for their poster girl's "inevitable" coronation getting canceled.

[davidinalameda]

16. you can't blame the DLC for these asswipes

a lot of these are "progressives" who are just too bitter to accept that their candidate lost

[newmajority]

24. Progressives wouldn't have been supporting DLC poster girl in the first place.

Regardless of what some of them claim to be. It's the equivalent of chickens supporting Col. Sanders.

[olkaz]

86. I'm sorry, but the PUMA's are waaaaaaay lower than the DLC.

Seriously, I have arguments with the DLC-leaning folk, but they have almost entirely fallen in line behind Obama. The PUMAS are actively raising money for McCain. BIG difference.

[SoCalDem]

45. PUMA= BOA

bitter old asses..

They should spend their time more fruitfully...like trying to get the rest of the 18million to each send HRC their $1.50

[madwivoter]

57. BOA, that's good :)

I think if they were to actively work for the candidate they really support, they would be working for McNasty.

They are simply anti-Obama.

[SidneyCarton]

63. PUMA=Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, v.2008

[Eurobabe]

78. Hey I haven't been paying attention, WTF is a Puma

besides a sleek golden cat? I know it is Hillary supporters gone wild, but what's the acronym mean?

[ieoeja]

83. It originally meant "Party Unity My Ass".

Then they changed it to "People United Means Action" because the first was rather classless. Just a little more lipstick, and that pig will be prom queen.

[Eurobabe]

90. thanks!

[PatGund]

12. Simple -

They see Dean as denying the Florida and Michigan votes and voters, and see him as a linchpin in the whole DNC conspiracy to deny Sen. Clinton her rightful nomination.

Never mind the rules and sanctions Howard Dean was following were put in place by the former DNC people that ended up ON Sen. Clinton's campaign staff. They see Howard Dean as sexist and unfair and the reason the PUMA folks had to leave the Democratic party.

That's their problem with Dean.

I read though that site. Wow, it felt like walking though an open sewer of raw hatred and bigotry. And the name "Puma" is bad enough, do I WANT to know what a "Puma Pouncing Ground" is?? A dating forum??

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SidneyCarton]

62. They have gone mad.

Those that aren't embedded freepers are people who have lost it in the last 8 years. They have internalized the lessons of the Bush Administration, (I'll get mine, let the nation burn but I'll get mine) to such a degree that they cannot see reason if it was plastered to the front of a train and they were tied to the tracks.

[Milo_Bloom]

95. They are republicans who never intended to vote for the Dem Nominee.

[provis99]

6. that Clinton Democrats site reads like a freeper site

Full of conspiracy theories, anger against Democrats, and a skewed sense of morality.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

25. it probably is a Freeper site

and they are all RWers trying to stop us winning?

[polmaven]

81. Unlike here?

This new GD-P forum isn't much different, and all pointed at Hillary.

"If she is the VP he better get a food taster and watch his back"
"their poster girl"(this thread)"
"she needs to tell her supporters to shut up"
etc., etc., and on and on and on.

It is more than past the time for the primary battles to END! We all need to focus on getting Senator Obama elected, and stop focusing our hate on people who are now supporting him.

[Alexander]

84. You can't compare the racism and bigotry of that site to here.

Unless you don't care about it.

[polmaven]

89. Frankly, I don't know what they are posting

because I simply don't go there.

You cited conspiracy theories, anger against Democrats, and a skewed sense of morality. You said nothing about racism.

I think accusations that Senator Clinton is planning to murder Senator Obama is all three of those things.

[Alexander]

91. Then don't compare the two sites.

If you really don't know what they are posting, you shouldn't bother making comparisons.

"You cited conspiracy theories, anger against Democrats, and a skewed sense of morality. You said nothing about racism."

I cited none of those things. Are you sure you're responding to the right person?

"I think accusations that Senator Clinton is planning to murder Senator Obama is all three of those things."

I never claimed anything of the sort.

Although quite frankly, her comments about Bobby Kennedy being assassinated only added fuel to this kind of talk.

[polmaven]

96. No, I apologize

that I said that YOU had cited those things. The post (#6) to which I had responded, however, did cite those things.

And, quite frankly, only "conspiracy theorists" would equate her citing Bobby Kennedy in an answer to a question regarding a time line to mean she is plotting to kill Senator Obama.

And I never said you claimed that, now, did I?

[Alexander]

98. Accepted.

As nutty as it is to think she's going to kill Obama, she was still irresponsible in mentioning RFK's assassination as a reason to stay in the race.

I hope we can agree on that.

[polmaven]

101. Well if she had used it for that reason,

yes we could, but she did not.

She used it simply to answer the question about why she was still in the race in June, and she cited his presence in the race in June as well. She did not use his assassination as a reason to stay in the race. You need to ...yes...I'm going to say it...put it in CONTEXT, the context being the wording of the question.

[SwampG8r]

102. you left out the quotation marks around supporters

was that intentional
to bolster your claim?
in my OP i said "supporters"
with quotation marks
to distinguish them from real supporters
i even went back and clarified the OP to actually explain the quotation marks
so why did you leave them out if not to bolster a false claim?


anyone wants to see who is truthful just check it here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6509948&mesg_id=6509948

[The Magistrate]

8. No Reason, Ma'am, To Assume These Are Anything But Republican Impostors

Nothing the Party can do about it any case: we are not Bolsheviks, after all; we do not even have a real Central Committee, let alone a functioning tcheka....

Crawford, by the way, sounds like a great place for this to kick off at.

[SwampG8r]

10. i agree your honor

about crawford being the right starting point

[madfloridian]

13. Perhaps be aware.

Is about all we can do.

[The Magistrate]

15. If That Place Has More Than One Hundred Members, Ma'am, It Would Surprise Me Greatly

A total of three members are on-line at present, and most of the ten browsers are probably people following your link from here.

[madfloridian]

17. I think you need to do a google blog search.

Use various terms. There may be just a few in each group, but they are very vocal.

I am simply speaking of awareness of how it is spreading.

[The Magistrate]

19. Many Blogs, Ma'am, With a Few People, And Much Over-Lap Site To Site

Not sure it is really spreading among the populace at large at all. There is no room for doubt a good deal of it Republican 'astro-turfing' aimed at stirring trouble.

[madfloridian]

21. Where I live it is real.

Not in that ugly sense, but in the sense that harm has been done. I guess I see things from a different point of view since our local Democrats disapprove of hubby and me now.

I just think we should not stick our heads in the sand.

[SidneyCarton]

64. This is probably very true in Florida.

And if Obama wishes to carry the state he will have to do considerable work to mend fences there. No offense Mad, but I don't think we'll carry Florida this year, I didn't think so before the primaries, I really don't think so now. That said the state deserves our attention, if for no other reason than to make McCain contest it, along with the other 49 states in the union.

[greguganus]

53. I agree. It seems to be just a few people, your penmanship. n/t

[kevinmc]

43. HA ... I was looking up McCain and came across this PUMA/Hillraiser site...

here's the last post posted on their site...


its been over 12hrs...
Submitted by todd rhodes on July 16, 2008 - 10:41pm.

and still no one has posted a darn thing here except for amy...
so sorry...i will have to leave...
has not a single person got a thing to say about john mccain...
i am totally disappointed in this place...
where can a person get involved with the john mccain for president?
im removing this place from my bookmarks....
goodbye...
todd rhodes.

and take this 'CAPTCHA' and stick it...in your fifth...

http://www.blogsforjohnmccain.com/videomccain-interview-carl-cameron-071608#comment-778


Like you said .... a few dozen dumbass's pretending they have a some power.

:)

[NYC_SKP]

20. I beg to differ, sir, with respect to their membership.

I agree that PUMA, specifically, seems to have been a product of Republican operatives, it seems that they've been successful in attracting disaffected voters, once loyal Democrats.

And, sadly, there are the other sites, who I need not mention here by name, that have the support of well known former Barack Obama supporters, including one Lady Lynn Forester de Rothschild.

I agree that there's little to be done about the matter, beyond what we are doing.

And yes, Crawford is a great place to begin. Our candidate looks fierce in a black cowboy hat.

[blogslut]

9. Fuck these damned people!

These scumbags are messin' with Texas now. May the forces of Karma be swift and devastating.

[NYC_SKP]

11. They're out to lynch Dean, Reid, Pelosi, and don't care if they take down our

party and our country with it. Someone should be ashamed of herself.

And now this Hillraiser is making the MSM rounds.


Lynn Forester de Rothschild
Lady de Rothschild is Founder and Chief Executive of E L Rothschild LLC, a private company, since June 2002. From 1990 to 2002, Lady de Rothschild was President and Chief Executive Officer of FirstMark Holdings, Inc., which owned and managed various telecommunications companies. She was Executive Vice President for Development at Metromedia Telecommunications, Inc. from 1984 to 1989. She began her career in 1980 as an associate at the law firm of Simpson, Thacher and Bartlett LLP, where she practiced corporate law. Lady de Rothschild is a director of The Economist Newspaper Limited (member of the Audit Committee). She is also a member of the U.N. Advisory Committee on Inclusive Financial Services and a trustee of the American Fund for the Tate Gallery, the Outward Bound Trust (UK), and the Alfred Herrhausen Society for International Dialogue (Deutsche Bank). Lady de Rothschild is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and the Foreign Policy Association, and she served as a member of the National Information Infrastructure Advisory Committee and as the Secretary of Energy Advisory Board under President Clinton.

I won't post the URL to their new website here.

:mad:

[PatGund]

14. Ah yes

Lady Lynn Forester de Rothschild, Lady Rothschild. The Bilderburger who complained on CNN that Sen. Obama was an "elitist" and that's why she didn't like him

Though she liked him well enough in 2004 to donate to his senate campaign.

[RNdaSilva]

31. We could let Pelosi slip through the cracks...

[World Citizen]

18. If these pumas are not disingenious...which is doubtful...

What will they do if HRC is the VP candidate?

[cliffordu]

22. Snivel and bitch because Hill is VP instead of Queen Bee

[PatGund]

23. The exact same thing

They want Sen. Clinton in the top position, and NOTHING ELSE WILL DO. They aren't even willing to accept another woman in the VP slot. It's Sen. Clinton as President or they're not voting / will vote for McCain / will cut off their noses to spite their face.

[madfloridian]

26. If you don't take them seriously....read this. All of it.

http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/07/15/puma-pac-founder-mccain-not-good/

[blogslut]

27. Aren't there two factions of PUMA?

Wasn't Will Bowers the actual originator of PUMA?

PS: Frankly, I think the FBI needs to called about these people. They're encouraging Charlotte Corday stuff, IMHO.

[SidneyCarton]

65. You're kidding me!

Charlotte Corday? Me thinks they need to reconsider their target, Obama is no Marat. Hell, neither is McCain, I don't even know who to compare Obama to, he speaks like Robespierre, but he's pragmatic like Danton. Oh well, this is insanity.

[blogslut]

66. Mostly, I'm referring to their psychotic posture

I think they're dangerous people. And let's not forget, Ms. Corday's act totally backfired....huge.

[SidneyCarton]

67. Yeah, but it helped trigger the Terror.

Believe me, a lot of people followed Charlotte to the Guillotine, whether or not they had anything to do with her stupidity.

[blogslut]

68. I know

I am fully aware of that. Her act also screwed up a burgeoning women's movement.

Perhaps my comparison is weak. Just the same, when I see these PUMAs, I see crazy people that have lost all sense of reason. I absolutely do not see Obama as Marat. Marat was an agitating shithead who didn't seem to care about the consequences of his words.

I sure as hell don't want a repeat of all that mess.

[SidneyCarton]

74. "Marat was an agitating shithead"

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

I do see the comparison between the PUMA's and Corday, they are certainly both delusional, and have no idea the ruin they risk if they succeed in their proposed task. As my name belongs to a victim of the Guillotine (albeit a fictional one) I certainly have no desire to repeat those days either.

(One decapitation is more than enough...)

[vaberella]

37. I love the stupid statements in the article.

Puma PAC is PROTESTING the election if the DNC selects Obama as the nominee. We are NOT supporting John McCain. There is a difference.

What pure and utter bullshit. By not voting for Obama, that also includes staying home is inadvertently supporting McCain because they could have been that one demo who made a difference. These people are just as crazed as the LaRouche people with way too much time on their hands, to actually form a group that is fighting for the good of the nation by voting for Obama and then making sure that they're concerns become HIS concerns when he becomes President. Instead they're supporting a moot point which makes no sense.

I want a Democrat in the White House who can handle these threats. Barack Obama is not that Democrat. He is NOT ready or experienced enough to address the issues we face in the Middle East, Afghanistan, North Korea, Russia, China, Pakistan etcetera ALL AT THE SAME TIME. He will flounder and fail.

I love this statemnt as well. Why? They reawaken this crap about "experience"; not a single soul who becomes President is experienced as President, unless he was President before. In the case of Bush he was bad before and he's bad again. What makes them assume that HRC has that experience, because she was married to Clinton? NOT! She was able to travel the world, so was I. That doesn't make me capable. She was in the Senate, but I don't see how being a Senator (whos done nothing for NYers) makes her qualified. Shoot, Schumer is more highly regarded than Clinton in New York.

I don't see how HRC is more experienced to address the above issues when HRC voted for the war. Is her experience going to have her send more of our troops to these countries, promoting more war?! These people make no sense and because of that they are dangerous.

I am trying to arrange a meeting with Darragh, so I won't go that far into detailed rebuttal here. This is one of the weaknesses of email, the lack of interplay. I will point out that, although it is her stated goal to see John McCain elected in November, she strongly repudiates every one of his policy positions.

And this adds to why they make little to no sense.

[PatGund]

75. Really????

"I am trying to arrange a meeting with Darragh, so I won't go that far into detailed rebuttal here. This is one of the weaknesses of email, the lack of interplay. I will point out that, although it is her stated goal to see John McCain elected in November, she strongly repudiates every one of his policy positions."

So THAT's why her only recorded political contribution is to John McCain in 2000. Because she repudiates every one of his policy positions.

YEah, sure......

[NatBurner]

58. wow

these ppl simply defy logic

[democrattotheend]

28. How is voter registration offensive?

If they want to make Dean the scapegoat for their woes, that's one thing, but why are they protesting a voter registration drive? Are these people Dixiecrats or something?

[Cha]

80. Logic? They don't need no stinkin' logic..

they're PatheticUnitedMccainA$$holes.

[grantcart]

29. Its nice people have a hobby that no one takes seriously and doesn't actually do anything

[madfloridian]

32. See the video I just posted in that section.

They are being used and given much attention.

[RNdaSilva]

30. Round up the PUMAs and put them in a zoo...

A looney farm?

Better yet, just place them on ignore.

[Political Heretic]

33. Please remind me what PUMA stands for again

Or else I am just going to continue to assume it means Pandas Under Monster Ass

[rox63]

47. PUMA = Party Unity My Ass

They are a bunch of delusional Clinton supporters being used by a few Republican operatives to oppose Obama and try to derail Dem chances to take back the WH.

[Political Heretic]

49. Yeah its funny I knew what it meant but not what it stood for

[flamingdem]

34. The Protests Might Help Generate Extra Media Coverage

And the more the merrier considering the mountain of dough McCain collected using his little loophole.

My saying is:
The only thing worse than a Pumabot is a Nader diehard

(At least the Pumabots know they are insincere, I think..)

[AspenRose]

35. Operation Chaos

They aren't Democrats

[Divine Discontent]

44. exactly...

someone needs to infiltrate them and get even one of their leaders on tape saying Obama's a (fill in the blank), and that they are really for McCain all along... just another ploy like, oh, say this one involving fake Florida voters screaming for the recount to end, who actually were Republican operatives! they never stop their little games do they? ---

[anonymous171]

36. Hopefully these protests will backfire as magnificently as their last one

I wonder if Harriet Christian will be making an encore appearance?

[papapi]

38. PUMA = Pesky Unnerving Monkey Anuses

[olkaz]

87. Postmenopausal Uneducated Monstrosities Attacking

[EFerrari]

39. What happened to "Count every vote"?

lol

[PatGund]

69. It's Count Every Vote......

Unless it's in a "undemocratic" caucus state or in anyway gives Sen. Obama any advantages.

I still have the PUMAs on another political board I'm on demanding caucus states be stripped of their delegates because they're "undemocratic" and unfair to those who can't make the caucuses.

I admit I dislike caucuses myself, but the PUMAs take it to a whole new level of absurdity

[BlooInBloo]

40. What wonderful people those Clinton supporters are.

[sufrommich]

52. If they were "Clinton supporters" they would respect the

fact that Hillary is campaigning for Obama and considers him the Democratic nominee.These PUMA threads always degenerate into anti Clinton threads that seem to blur the line between a small number of nuts on the internet and those of us that supported Clinton in the primaries. I'm a Clinton supporter,and as such respect what she is doing for the Obama campaign.Outside of DU,these PUMA's are largely ignored .The purpose they serve here seems to have nothing to do with how utterly irrelevant they are in the real world

[PatGund]

72. Understand that

I've been careful when discussing the PUMAs to tell the difference between them and real Clinton supporters.

What I find absurd is that many PUMAs believe that Sen. Clinton herself is backing and supporting them. And they will see everything she does though that lens. The reports they did of the Unity appearance went like: "See! Look at this video! At 2 min and 5 sec Hillary turns 1/4 inch away from Obambi and looks like she's about to cough up an Oompa-Loompa! That PROVES she doesn't support him and she's being forced to go along with this sham!! You see it too, right? Right? RIGHT???"

And then 20 people with 10-20 screen names each all post and agree that yes, yes, they see it too.

There is NOTHING Sen. Clinton can say that will make these people believe anything differently. The only thing Sen. Clinton can do is tell people she doesn't support them, doesn't approve of them, they don't speak for her, and she repudiates them.

Personally, I believe that the PUMA types pretty much spit on Sen. Clinton and all she stands for each time they open their mouths or post a message.

[sufrommich]

76. I totally agree with your last paragraph.

I'm also of the mind,though,that both Obama and Clinton would rather not give any credence to this small group of so - called " Clinton supporters",it's more important to have a united front against the republicans than it is to give fodder to a national media just looking for a reason to pounce.My guess is that if either Obama or Clinton has even heard of this group(which i highly doubt),they're both smart enough not to fall into a republican trap.

[kevinmc]

41. This will turn out like the Pots and Pans Fiasco ..... lot of hype and no action. .....

small numbers and lots of astro-turf. I can't wait to see the masses of asses this brings out. These people aren't squat outside of the internet....where they can portray something they are not.

[Hekate]

46. The good Dr. Dean will not be intimidated by faux-Democrats like PUMA

He's always sharp and on-message with any crowd.

Hekate

[LaurenG]

48. I just have to say that those aren't democrats

It's a bs cover for pro McCain enablers.

I have zero tolerance for PUMA bs. Screw them and all their little imaginations keeping them stuck thinking they're doing anything for anyone but their own sad little egos.

[tekisui]

50. Hey, PUMA's. FUMA!

Fuck You, Munch Ass!

[Domitan]

51. The PUMAS need to be "crated"

Bring on Fluffy!

[Marrah_G]

71. We should send them all to re-education camps and teach them the correct way to think!

[endarkenment]

54. All 12 of them?

Bring it on.

[Marrah_G]

55. This is a SMALL group of people. Stop over- reacting

You came across a small web page with people trying to organize a protest that will most likely not even happen.

There were all of 18 people on line when I went to the page.

Out of all the people on DU, how many were at each anti-war protest? couple dozen...maybe?

Do you see where I am going with this?

Stop obsessing over a small percentage of Dems who feel differently then you in a very strong way. In the end most will come around and vote for Obama, except that is.... if you people keep stalking them all over the net bitching at them and about them. All you are doing is drawing attention to them.

[madwivoter]

56. The "pumas" are not and never were Democrats

I don't give a shit what anyone says.

They exist in a strange place somewhere down by the rethugs.

[Canuckistanian]

59. Gee, what other political group disses voter registration drives?

Oh yeah, Republicans.

And anyone who starts a message with "Now, I don’t like Bush, but.....", should cause some raised eyebrows.

[Lilith Velkor]

77. *cough* WomensVoicesWomensVote *ahem*

Oh, excuse me. Got some hypocrisy stuck in my throat.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alter Ego]

61. Yes, how dare Dean try to help the Democrats win in November.

Fucking idiots.

[FredfromSpace]

70. My proposal: Ignore them.

They are just trying to get publicity.

Ignore them and they have failed.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

73. I hate the name "PUMA" for these nitwits.

A puma is a beautiful, graceful animal. These idiots should give themselves an appropriately creepy name, like WORM. Wretched Old Republican Mutants.

[DangerousRhythm]

99. ROFL!

I actually agree... I love big cats and I hate that they're tainting the majestic puma with their silly toddler-tantrum antics.

[Cha]

79. PUMA

Pathetic United Mccain A$$holes.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

93. I would sub in "Unhinged"...

but otherwise, in full agreement! :evilgrin:

[Cha]

100. Perfect and shall be from

now on:evilgrin: Thanks BD.

[madfloridian]

82. First off the bus in Crawford...a PUMA greeting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3635419

Wayne Slater...author of "Bush's Brain"

[blogslut]

88. One person

I guess the massive turnout was a wash.

Oh well. Poor Guila. :rofl:

[dsomuah]

85. Who cares? They are an impotent group

They couldn't raise enough money to help Hillary, they can't raise enough money to give McCain parity, McCain has had to rely on the big money republican donors, and that money will run out eventually, if all they can do is meet a bus with protests, I wouldn't worry about them.

[Faygo Kid]

92. Yeah, like those stupid Swift Boaters in 2004,

I don't think this phenomenon should be ignored, or dismissed.

Dems seem to do that a lot. At their peril. You could also look up Nader 2000.

[dsomuah]

104. The Swiftboaters actually had money and supporters

The day I see PUMA actually run a single ad, or put Hillary on the ballot in one state or indeed do anything other than surround a bus and wave signs, I will actually take them seriously.

Incidentally I'm also ignoring the "potent threat" of the KKK, even though I know they hate Obama too. I've seen little evidence that they can do anything.

In 2004, the swiftboaters were actually running ads, they were in the media, they were getting attentions. I've yet to see PUMAs do anything other than put up a website, and post ad-nauseum on messageboards.

Now let's suppose for the sake of argument that PUMA should be taken seriously. What exactly should we do? Raise money to fight them? We are already outraising them. Travel to FL to shout them down? If I'm travelling to FL, it's to register voters. I think that will help Obama a lot more than going to scream at a bunch of losers. Put Hillary on the ballot? I'm willing to bet you that many of those people wouldn't even accept and Obama-Hillary ticket because they believe Hillary was robbed by the party leadership.

The swiftboaters were clever people who found a way to undermine Kerry's national security credentials and cleverly exploited it. These people are idiots who haven't done anything substantial other than sit behind their computers and whine. You can't compare them to the Swiftboaters.

[zulchzulu]

94. I'm sure all 6 of them will meet at Denny's for the Big Ass Special

I'm very suspicious that there are many of these people. I'd sure like to meet one personally.

[eShirl]

97. if they want to help publicize Dean's efforts, I say they should go right ahead

:D

[cap]

103. If any PUMA nonsense starts to gain traction

Hillary and Chelsea will deploy to assist Dean and other Democrats.

PUMA may have started with some disaffected Hillary supporters...but it is being coached professionally by the Republican party. FOX is giving them plenty of air time and helping to drive up their web site hits as a result... they were nothing and now they are getting about 125K hits as a result. Look at their site through alexa.com and you will see what I am talking about. No other media outlet is carrying these people. You don't see them getting air time on CNN or MSNBC or network news. Their talking points are directly linked to the RNC and McCain campaign. Just watch the McCain campaign's talking points and see them reflected in the PUMA point of the day. They state that they won't back off even if Hillary is the VP -- although I do think that such a move will knock the wind out of their sails and that you will have to be a real hard core Obama Hater and a not-so-warm Hillary Lover at that point not to back the ticket.

They are being deployed like black conservatives were in Ohio during '04. A lot of noise, generally speaking, but maybe enough to hurt in critical close elections.

If they go toe to toe against Hillary, she will eat their lunch without even breaking a sweat (Mixed metaphor, I know). At the right time, if there's anything there, Hillary will take them out. For now, maybe it's not worth the effort and Hillary can be used to better effect somewhere else.