Death penalty for raping a child? You bet...

[Blue_Roses]

I can see Obama's stance on this. While legally this does not stand up in court, I can see the anger and emotion that would make someone WANT the death penalty for this heinous crime, specially when he has two beautiful little girls.

I think John Grisham's books, "A Time to Kill," and "The Chamber," reach the broad spectrum of emotions--from each side--when something horrific like this happens to a child.

This is one issue that I reserve the right to flip-flop on depending on the case. While a lifetime in prison, for a child molester is a living hell, it's just doesn't seem like enough when a child is raped and killed.

[MonkeyFunk]

1. And I'd like to kill the punks that broke into my house

and stole my computer. But that doesn't mean I have the right to do it, or the expectation that the government should do it for me.

Our judicial system isn't about anger and emotion, nor should it be.

[Blue_Roses]

3. that's right, it's not about anger and emotion...

and someone stealing your computer isn't the same as raping a child. There is no comparison. That's why we have a court to decide.

[Umbram]

32. "That's why we have a court to decide."

And that is why we have a Supreme Court to interpret the Constitution so people's emotions (even if they are the emotions of the majority) do not trump the rights of individuals.

[MonkeyFunk]

52. I never said the crimes were equivalent

I'm saying that the emotional reaction of the victim or even of observers shouldn't be used to justify punishments.

[SidneyCarton]

42. I agree

When my car was stolen, I was mad enough to consider for a moment, running current through the chassis of my wife's car in order to shock the hell out of any potential car thieves. (being that I'm a bit forgetful myself and would have likely succeeded in shocking myself, it's probably better I never considered seriously doing that)

I cannot imagine the grief rage and horror that accompanies having one's child molested. My first impulse upon discovering that someone had done so to my 1 year old daughter would be to desire to see the responsible party fed foot first through a wood chipper. Hence, it is all the better that the decision is not mine to make, and that we have a system (hopefully) based on cold, deliberative law, and not the raging emotions of each of us individually.

[Egalitariat]

2. If a child is raped AND killed, the death penalty is still allowable

The Supremes said yesterday that it's not allowed if there's no murder.

[Blue_Roses]

5. exactly...

because of the "intent of murder." My point is the "feeling" of wanting to kill someone for raping their child. This is why we have a legal system and not vigilantes, although there are times...:mad:

[Egalitariat]

15. If you didn't have to worry about wrongful convictions, I'd personally have no

problem with torture in those circumstances.

[Blue_Roses]

19. therein lies the rub...

nt

[flpoljunkie]

20. And, the death penalty is still legal until we decide the state has no right to take a life.

[JVS]

4. Envision 2 groups: Voters or convicted child molesters

which group do you want to curry favor with?

[Blue_Roses]

6. this is stupid.

anyone who has a child KNOWS how they would feel if this happened to their child. Whether it's going to happen is another thing. Try asking: "do the voters understand where Obama is coming from?"

Right, left, middle, sideways, you can bet they do. It's about relating to the issue this time.

[YOY]

9. Is that Mr. B Natural in your Avatar Pic?

I still remember the firey debates to determine his/her gender...

Speaking about possible child molesters...

[JVS]

13. Yeah, it's Mr. B-natural. Representing the spirit of music inside you!

[YOY]

27. And the androgynous creep who sneaks inside of prepubescent boys rooms with musical instruments...

...letting them in on the secrets of school cool...brass & woodwinds.

No offense intended to transgendered folks (or androgynous folks in general) but they gotta see what we are talking about to understand the true creepiness of "Mr. B Natural."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8kH4XyWjq4

[eissa]

36. Exactly

Anyone remember Dukakis? That question regarding how he would feel about his wife being raped was used to hit him over the head with countless times. And please, are we really crying over child rapists? Seriously?

[elocs]

7. Since the Supreme Court has already ruled, this is a moot point

and a collection of personal opinions. Obama has 2 young daughters which certainly may influence his opinion about the penalty for child rape. When you are a parent you tend to reflect on situations like that with, "That could have been my child". I know I do.

As for killing, that should be left where it properly belongs: in our homes, schools, and on our city streets. :sarcasm: (I had to use the sarcasm thingie because lord know, if you don't, somebody won't get it even if it is way over the top.)

[Blue_Roses]

8. exactly and thank-you...

so many "I'm disappointed in Obama," comments make me want to reel. It's ridiculous because while he is a presidential candidate, he's still a father. I'm sure in the solace of his thoughts, he knows the "legal" stance, but "feels" the emotional pain.

[cliffordu]

10. General population, Maximum security prison. No administrative segregation.

Problem solved.

[mvd]

11. Of course, we all get caught up in the emotion

It's normal. Where I differ from some is that I make no exceptions in being anti-death penalty.

[Blue_Roses]

16. this is one issue that I can't say

that I'm for or against. Charles Manson? probably...his followers, no...

It's definitely an emotional issue that as a Social Worker, I find myself struggling with. The many things that I've seen that do pull on that emotional heart string make me glad that I'm not the judge and jury deciding.

[mvd]

21. I have decided to be against it, but..

it's an issue I can see both sides of. So I hope people see my side of being against it completely for multiple reasons.

[Blue_Roses]

22. I can respect that...

and I think your ability to do so speaks volumes. I'm just not there yet...and don't know if I ever will be. But, I am much more open than I was 20 years ago.

[mvd]

24. My mom used to be for it, but I convinced her to be like me

It can happen. But if you can't come around after all the argument, I respect that, too.

[sandnsea]

12. Nope, this is wrong

I oppose the death penalty, but if we expand it to other than death, then there's no limit to what could eventually be added to the list. This is the wrong way. And for all the people who wonder how our country can be so out of step with the rest of the world, then turn around and support the death penalty, well, look in the mirror.

[mvd]

17. Well said IMO

I feel that if I let my emotions get to me, I'd lose sight of what I think is right. That's why I make no exceptions. I could support life WITHOUT parole for child rape.

[sandnsea]

38. That's the real tragedy

While we're arguing about the death penalty, and we must, we miss the opportunity to target dangerous offenders and support life without parole where necessary. We get so caught up in revenge we never solve any problems.

[Tatiana]

14. Can you imagine how he would feel if Melia or Sasha had been raped?

Or if it was your own kid?

Such people do not deserve to walk the earth. Most offenders who are paroled simply commit the crime again. The recidivism rate for child sexual abusers is through the roof.

I support confidential counseling (without stigma) for those who may have inappropriate thoughts/fantasies towards children to help them mitigate their problem. But once the line is crossed, if a crime as heinous as child rape is committed, I think it is fair to consider the death penalty as a punishment.

[Blue_Roses]

18. I agree...

as a Social Worker, I've seen it happen time and time again. I don't agree that the death penalty should be used for rape--although, I would want to kill them myself--but for murder, especially with no remorse, yeah, probably.

I struggle to see all sides, but when a child is hurt or abused, all reason goes out the window.

Remember that man who broke into that house in Idaho and killed the mother, boyfriend and another one of their children and then abducted the little girl and boy (he later killed the little boy). Do people really think he can be rehabilitated?

[Tatiana]

28. I have seen both sides of the issue (as a former soc. worker). There is no rehabilitation of these

people.

The only thing you can do is mitigate the maladaptive behaviors and/or urges. And this requires consistent therapy and a willingness on the part of the offender to acknowledge the fact that they have a problem and spend the rest of their natural lives managing it.

Most offenders don't do this. They simply give in to the urges again and try to come up with a more clever way to hide their crimes. As a social worker, you know that when the criminal justice system finally catches up to a child sexual abuser, chances are they have previously abused another 4-6 victims who have not been reported.

I will repeat what I have said before. There is a reason why crimes against children are particularly heinous. An adult can fight back. But a 5 or 6 year-old cannot fight back against an adult. They are essentially defenseless. What I have utterly FAILED to hear anyone mention is the LIFETIME OF PAIN AND TROUBLE the child VICTIMS have to live through as a result of the abuse.

They have problems forming attachments. They may act out at school. They can be suicidal and exhibit low self-esteem. They may become violent themselves. A significant number suffer from PTSD and/or depression. There is a legacy of problems society has as a whole must deal with as a result of these child rapes. The victim NEVER forgets. I have not spoken to one victim who has said they are "over" their sexual abuse.

What is the price to be paid for leaving someone with a LIFETIME legacy of pain?

I do not take the death penalty lightly. But I think for these repeat child rapists, it is a punishment that should be considered.

[Blue_Roses]

31. I knew I liked your posts for a reason...

:D

There's something about social work that changes your mind set, often keeping you up at night. I had to step back a few years ago when I had my own children. It's just too much...

[Tatiana]

34. I had to leave the field for that reason. I took my work home.

And it was not good for my family or me.

Because I love people, I will always work in the field in some capacity. But the daily grind was just too stressful. You see a lot of things and you see up-close and personal what people can truly be capable of (both good and bad).

:hi:

[skooooo]

23. That's not the point, we don't base laws on *feelings* nt

[Blue_Roses]

25. I don't think this is the point...

we all know that we don't base laws on feelings, however, "feeling" this way against a horrific crime goes without saying. That's what we're trying to convey here--or at least I am.

I have no doubt Barack Obama respects the laws governing these decisions, but it does not eliminate hard emotions that come with it.

[skooooo]

26. ..

:hi:

I see.

[Blue_Roses]

29. animals and children...

guess I'm pretty over-protective. My mom used to get so mad at me when I was a kid because I would bring every stray animal home.

[Tatiana]

30. That wasn't my point as has been pointed out to you.

The question we should be asking ourselves is can such people be rehabilitated?

In most cases, the answer is NO.

[NorthCarolina]

33. Reminds me of the 18 year old kid that was sent to prison because he had sex with

his 16 year old girlfriend who admitted she consented. However, her parents pressed charges for having sex with a minor. He was either an African American or Hispanic kid, I don't recall which for sure, but I do recall he was a member of a minority and was tried in a "conservative" area. As you can imagine they sent him to prison to serve some hard time. A penalty that far out weighed the crime. Could he have been sentenced to death were he to be convicted in say Alabama or Texas? Scary thought huh?

[Thothmes]

35. I would not sentenance a child rapest to death

I would give him a life sentence. Then place that individual in the general prison population when he arrived at the pen. Has several advantages, it salves the conscience of those against the state sponsored death penalty. It saves the system 10-12 years of appeals in state and federal courts. Since the individual will most probably killed by an inmate within a month or so, it save the tax payers $30,000 a year for 30 or 40 years of custody expenses.
JMO.

[backscatter712]

37. There are some people who cannot be tolerated in society.

Child rapists among them, murdering dictators, serial killers too. While there are some that are innocent that wind up on death row, there are also those where it's plain and obvious that they committed these crimes, the evidence is solid, they confessed, hell, they bragged about it.

These psychopaths cannot be saved, cannot be rehabilitated, they're just plain fucking evil.

You can't do anything with them except put them down like mad dogs without risking public safety.

[redqueen]

39. "This is one issue that I reserve the right to flip-flop on depending on the case"

That's not equal treatment under the law, by definition.

Personally, I care more about justice than satisfying primitive, irrational, rage-induced bloodlust.

[Blue_Roses]

45. well thankfully, I'm not a judge...

but as a citizen, I still reserve that right to flip-flop.

[redqueen]

47. Oh... hehe...

well sure, in that case then, yeah. :P :blush:

I'm glad Obama's making the comments he has...

:hi:

[Blue_Roses]

48. Obama is much more qualified to be president...

than I am...and much more patient:D

:hi:

[JoFerret]

40. Just what we need -

leaders, politicians and government driven by emotionalism not legality, rationality and principled conceptions of justice. (It's what made lynch mobs, lynch mobs).

Sometimes the right thing is not the popular thing.

And because emotions can run very high on such issues we need to step back and take the cooler view. Obama often seems to be very good at this.

[Blue_Roses]

46. yes he does...

and that's one of the many reasons I support him.

[JoFerret]

51. There are many reasons to support Obama and all

democrats across the board this and every season.

This does not happen to be one reason for support - merely sighs, understanding, and move to the bigger picture.

Obama is a great candidate. Does not make everything he believes, says and stands for "great". Other leaders can pave the way on these principles and make it easier for candidates to follow.

that's a the way it works - not ideological purity - but risk-taking leap-frogging. We can't expect the nominee to be the lead on this..

[bluestateguy]

41. The USSC had no standing to issue a nationwide ban on that policy

The issue should be decided by the states. As a matter of policy, I'm not sure if I agree or not.

[RaleighNCDUer]

49. It certainly does. 8th amendment - cruel and unusual punishment.

If DP is allowed for this offense in only 5 of 50 states, that makes it an unusual punishment.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KOBUK]

44. Would not a law like this almost guarantee..

that the rapist would have to kill the child ?

[RaleighNCDUer]

50. Yep. With the DP for child rape, the rapist's best chance to stay alive

is to kill the witness - the penalty for murder being no worse than for the rape. Without someone to say that 'Uncle Bob did it' his chance of evading execution is increased, whereas with no DP for the rape he might be likelier to be caught but he knows he won't be executed if he is.

[niceypoo]

53. The only problem I have with it....

...is that child rapists would most likely start killing the victims to eliminate witnesses.

[depakid]

54. No amount of punishment is ever enough for Americans

That's why the country has the world's largest, most expensive and fastest growing prison system (as well as being one of the few nations in the world where capital punishment is not only accepted but promoted.

Small wonder that most Americans pretty much gave torture a pass-

[Upton]

55. The death penalty should be reserved for the taking of a human life.

I know the rape of a child is a heinous crime but it doesn't IMO warrant the death penalty.

[PatGund]

56. When it comes to the vermin who would do this to a child......

.....I don't believe in death.


I believe in torture. As administered by the parents of said child.


Seriously, if someone did this to my daughter, I don't think anyone would ever find the vermin's body.