Just a little rule of logic when debating people....

[mckeown1128]

Saying that something has been proven many times.... isn't a form of proof.


I just challenged two DU Clinton supporters on their claims that Obama has been playing the race card. I told them that accusing someone of playing the race card when they weren't was a racist republican tactic. (which it is) I asked for proof... and I got everything besides proof. I received:

1. It's been proven a million times.
2. Quit stifling free speech.
3. Obama pushed the RFK story. (which has NOTHING to do with race lol)
4. Obama's trying to destroy and divide the party.

they just kept repeating these 4 points... and of course... I'm still waiting for proof.

challengers? Anyone want to try to help these two proofless Clinton supporters? Does anyone have proof the Obama the Democratic nominee has been playing the race card against Clinton? (must show a campaign effort, not the lone, low level campaign nut with too much time on their hands)

[Boojatta]

1. Would you be in favor of a Communications forum on DU?

It could allow for threads about what's in all of the other DU forums, with links to specific posts to be examined. Not only logic, but also etiquette, clarity of communication, and other communication matters could be discussed.

[mckeown1128]

3. That's a pretty good idea. nt

[Boojatta]

24. I hope it's good enough for the following to get a kick and recommend...

Would you be in favor of a Communications forum on DU? Topics: clearness, etiquette, logic

[stray cat]

12. That really isn't a bad idea

[stray cat]

2. Another point: Name calling generally doesn't enhance an argument

whether logical or illogical.

[mckeown1128]

5. Your right. nt

[POAS]

35. Neither does cursing so

Eff off!

PS :sarcasm:

[rucky]

4. last "proof" that was offered I've seen...

was a clip from the Young Turks commenting on Jesse Jackson Jr. commenting about Hillary tearing-up in New Hampshire.

totally bizarre.

[bluerum]

6. This post is one of the more interesting attempts -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6131776

Personally I think it is hogwash however I think that the repukes will pick up the thread after the conventions are all said and done with.

[MonkeyFunk]

7. Well here's an example

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/12/obama-camps-memo-on-clin_n_81205.html

The Obama campaign memo for which he apologized.

[Blue_Roses]

8. that was dated in January...

:wtf:

[ClassWarrior]

14. So a confidential Obama memo listing instances of Clinton race baiting is race baiting?

:rofl:

And why is Hilly trying to seat 100% of the delegates from MI and FL when the rules call for 50%?

NGU.

[MonkeyFunk]

26. Yes

in this instance, it's making race an issue where race isn't an issue. Obama apologized for it.

As to your question on a totally unrelated matter, perhaps you should read the thread discussing that issue.

[ClassWarrior]

28. So you admit there's a long list of instances of HRC race baiting.

Glad we have that settled.

And you never answered the question on that thread as far as I know. If you did, I'd appreciate a link.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

44. Still no answer, Funky?

NGU.

[mckeown1128]

43. 1. It was only pointing out what the Clinton camp was doing...

2. It was a lone campaign operative and Obama apologized because it was someone in his campaign who did it... not because it was some super secret plan to "play the race card"

3. He was wrong to apologize...since the memo was entirely appropriate.

[gateley]

15. Yeah - both campaigns do that.

If I were involved in a campaign I'd probably do it, too and it's probably a strategy that's been used successfully for a long time.

But from my perspective, I hate it.

[intaglio]

22. and quoted examples of actual remarks

that - to say the least - were borderline racist

[sandnsea]

58. That was an internal memo

Expressing dismay at what the Clinton campaign was saying and doing. The Obama campaign couldn't even do that much without getting accused of playing the race card. That's how sick this country is.

[Swamp Rat]

9. Nice try, Hitler.

:D

[Brundle_Fly]

36. fucking amazing Swamp Rat....

as always.

*bows*

[Swamp Rat]

38. And

I bow in return... "Metronauts" - Brilliant! If I lived in Toronto, we'd be having coffee together right now. ;)

[Brundle_Fly]

41. actually...

it'd be lattés, at the elitist Balzacs coffee house in Liberty Village.

perhaps over a game of Gin Rummy, on my Obama Deck of cards. =D

[Swamp Rat]

49. and Rodin's ghost.

:D

ls

What do you like to play on the guitar?... besides music? :D

[Brundle_Fly]

57. if I had my way

I would have joined the smithereens in 1985.

[Swamp Rat]

59. And if I had my way

I'd be the 4th member of Rush. :D

http://www.rushradio.org

[Saturday]

10. MO played the race card by saying that blacks would come around.

It worked.

[mckeown1128]

50. Umm... that isn't playing the race card...

blacks came around, then white men, soon to be white women, then hispanics... it's called campaigning...


Do you even know what the "race card" is?

[Perry Logan]

11. Sean Wilentz's "Race Man" in New Republic is a good start.

Race Man by Sean Wilentz
How Barack Obama played the race card and blamed Hillary Clinton.

"To a large degree, the campaign's strategists turned the primary and caucus race to their advantage when they deliberately, falsely, and successfully portrayed Clinton and her campaign as unscrupulous race-baiters--a campaign-within-the-campaign in which the worked-up flap over the Somali costume photograph is but the latest episode. While promoting Obama as a "post-racial" figure, his campaign has purposefully polluted the contest with a new strain of what historically has been the most toxic poison in American politics."

http://www.tnr.com/toc/story.html?id=aa0cd21b-0ff2-4329-88a1-69c6c268b304

[Cassandra]

25. That's an opinion piece by an ardent Clinton supporter.

Where is a quote, directly from Obama or his campaign, that accuses Hillary or Bill of race-baiting? The opinions of Obama supporters, who may feel they heard what they heard, don't count.

[SoFlaJet]

13. Gerry Ferraro's took a stab at it

last week with her stating that some guy IN THE AUDIENCE at a Clinton rally held up a sign that said IRON MY SHIRT. She somehow equated THAT to be from the Obama camp and proof positive of misogyny-which BTW is a word I had no idea the meaning of and can't believe I now even know how to spell correctly. I was shocked when it didn't come out as a misspelled word after spell check

[ClassWarrior]

16. If Gerry Ferraro would sober up enough to use Google, she'd quickly discover...

...that the "IRON MY SHIRT" episode was a radio shock jock's stunt.

NGU.

[SoFlaJet]

18. when has sober thinking entered into their argument

for the last 3 months CW?

[Evergreen Emerald]

17. And pretending you don't know something that has been proven

on DU a dozen times, is not an argument. It is baiting. And lying about what you are given as proof, is not an argument.


I gave you the facts and the locations of proof (the debates, the news shows, the e-mails). You are choosing to ignore that, and just attack me.

I guess it is easier for you to change the subject than actually look up the FACTS. But, you don't need to do you? Because you already know them.

And for the record: calling someone out on DU is still against the rules, I believe, even when the place has been taken over by Thugs.

[ClassWarrior]

20. And being too arrogant to cite them again and again and never give up...

...tells me you don't give a damn enough about your hero to be bothered. Or you have nothing.

I suspect it's the latter.

NGU.

[Evergreen Emerald]

21. You suspect? LOL

You know that the facts are out there. Why do you pretend not to? Cover your ears, shut your eyes and shout Lalalalalala to avoid reality.

And then post threads about how much more logical you are....you crack me up.

[ClassWarrior]

27. I know that any time I ask an HRC defender for proof of anything, I get derided...

...and told to Google. So if there ARE facts out there, y'all are too arrogant to be bothered to show them to me.

And, quite frankly, I'm not going to waste my valuable time looking for something that probably doesn't exist. My time's better spent phone banking for the nominee.

By the way, are you that blinded by your rage and bitterness that you can't see that the OP and I are different posters? ("And then post threads about how much more logical you are...")

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

30. Does anyone else hear crickets?...

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

31. "You are too foolish..."

"...to spend any time on. If you REALLY wanted to know, you could go to Cnn.com or MSNBC.com and find it your damn self.

"Or, you could simply keep posting about how you have no idea what I am talking about and then go play your pokeman game."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6132310&mesg_id=6132879

Thanks for proving my point so quickly and amply.

NGU.

[POAS]

37. Too foolish to spend time on

and then spend hours arguing?

"Go look it up" is just another cop-out way of resigning from the argument you cannot win without actually resigning. Just point the finger and the argument is won by default.

As for the argument about using or baiting the race issue I don't think you really understand that talking about race and using race are not one in the same thing.

[ClassWarrior]

40. I think you mean EE, not me. At any rate, I agree with you.

NGU.

[cliffordu]

42. BWAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAH! Nice. Great humor!

[mckeown1128]

52. There you go claiming you don't have to back it up because

"it's been proven"... the burden of proof is on you. You've made the rediculous claim.

You gave me no such facts... claiming that their was proof in the debates... is stupid. Why don't you post a link to a transcript of the debate that you claim Obama was "playing the race card" in. You won't post it because it doesn't exist. Because you are just making things up.


So, I will ask again... proof please?

[hfojvt]

61. How hard is it to prove things once and then keep a record of it?

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/71

[mckeown1128]

65. It's pretty hard when they never proved it to begin with. nt

[ClassWarrior]

71. .

[cui bono]

68. projection.

again.

Never a good point to be made.

[QC]

19. Since we're on the subject of rules...

here's an interesting one from the forum rules:

Do not start a new topic in order to continue a flame war from another discussion thread.

[mckeown1128]

53. I am not continuing the argument...

That was a personal argument between me and two posters... I am asking in general for all to try to answer.

[OzarkDem]

23. and some people use the trick

of demanding further "proof" even though plenty of evidence has been given. Demanding more proof just because it doesn't match your view of the world doesn't make your argument valid. You can't always debate only in your court.

[mckeown1128]

54. Oh.. you've provided proof to me?

I don't think so. Mind posting a link to said proof? Because I have yet to see it.

[joeybee12]

29. There's a great post about how this all started with the MLK/LBJ

quote by Hilary being taken out of context by Obama to smear her...that's the beginning point of all this "race" BS...then you have Obama stating that he believes Hilary's camp did not send the Obama is a Muslim e-mail around, only to accuse her of this in front of a laregly black crowd in Mississippi right before the primary.

How much more proof do you need?

[NC_Nurse]

33. I haven't seen that piece. Where was it? Do you have a link?

Seriously, I don't know what you're talking about....

[joeybee12]

47. It was posted today!

Take a look around.

[mckeown1128]

56. It's an opinion piece...and no where in it does it back up

that posters claim that Obama some how pushed the LBJ/MLK story. It's all accusation with no facts or details... if you ask for facts or details to back up that opinion piece you are told to "look around."

[mrreowwr_kittty]

39. Got something to substantiate those accusation? Put up or STFU.

I know that Obama has been warning audiences about those false emails (which may constitute "playing the race card" in itself to bitter white Hillary supporters) but I've never seen any evidence of him claiming they were coming from the Clinton campaign. Although he has every right to say that, since Hillary people WERE caught circulating them in Iowa.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

51. You seem really bitter about it, joeybee12.

Was she a friend of yours or something?

Oh and BTW, the Muslim smear email was forwarded to more than just other Clinton staffers. The reason the press got ahold of it was because the email was also forwarded to a Dodd campaign worker, who gave it to reporters.

At any rate, where's your proof that Obama said at a speech that the Clinton campaign was guilty of spreading the rumor? (Again, not that he's not within his right to do that but he hasn't.)

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nichomachus]

32. It's the same trick the GOP uses

If you try to argue that Republican policies are hurting the poor and middle class, the Republicans accuse you of "class warfare."

So, if you point out someone is using race as a divisive issue, the other side accuses you of "playing the race card."

[CreekDog]

34. and about "Obama pushing the RFK" story

that doesn't make what she said right.

if she intended to keep it quiet, why did she tell it to a newspaper???

:eyes:

thanks for the attention to these abominations of arguments.

[PurityOfEssence]

48. Here's proof, please refute this:

The 40 Days of Faith whoop-de-do in South Carolina was a blatant playing of the race and religion cards. Unfortunately, it got so out of hand that it raised a homophobia issue that sort of clouded the underlying dynamic.

Finding out that Clinton was 20 points ahead in South Carolina, a must-win primary in a state with more than a 50% black electorate for the primary, he decided to mount a big series of gospel events to remind the locals that he was "one of them". It was cultural/religious/racial politics writ large. Unfortunately, playing with religion has unintended consequences, and one of the ones here is that a very homophobic performer was on the bill. (Actually there was another group, too, but McClurkin is of a different order of magnitude.)

That culture is VERY homophobic, and the bigotry is rooted in and justified by the religion, so Obama couldn't cancel a grammy-winner without screwing the whole wholesale I'm-just-like-you project, so he pulled a Hillary and decided to put a gay preacher on the bill for balance. Obama repeatedly refused to remove McClurkin from the bill, downplaying his participation as just one of many, but it simply wasn't true: the guy was the MC of the event, being on stage repeatedly throughout the night and ended the show with a big and nasty screed against homosexuality all slathered up with god justifications.

The gay preacher was on at the very beginning and left. What's really the corker is this: the gay preacher was white, even though at least two prominent black ones had offered their services.

Do I need to spell it out for you? Here: don't vote for the white woman, I'm one of you. Okay, I tolerate homos, but it's really a problem of that other race, not US. It was pure, creepy xenophobia and it worked.

This was literally the UGLIEST bit of race-baiting done in presidential politics since Reagan went to Philadelphia, Mississippi.

Okay? Otherwise, I agree with your contention that saying something has been endlessly proved doesn't constitute proof.

I now ask you to have the same ethical decency that you deride your opponents for not having and answer this post.

[mckeown1128]

55. You've changed the subject...

McClurkin is a whole different issue. I am asking about Obama playing the race card.. not homophobia. They are not one in the same... running gospel events is not playing the race card. Try again.

[PurityOfEssence]

60. No I didn't; this was playing race for personal gain.

I don't view this incident as a "gay" issue, I view it as playing the race and religion cards and having unintended consequences.

He was SPECIFICALLY trying to pull voters away from Clinton by reminding them he was one of "them", and he used religion to galvanize the whole thing and cleave away a bloc of voters wholesale. Just because it was portrayed as a "gay" issue doesn't negate the core racist element of the move.

The fact that he used a white gay preacher is obvious playing of the race card.

I'm not changing the subject at all, I'm pointing out how he used religion and race FOR DELIBERATE TACTICAL GAIN. It was obvious, cynical, and the only reason it hasn't gotten more press is that the homophobia became a better story.

How can you dismiss my initial post so flippantly when it's OBVIOUS that I'm pointing out that the core cause of this disaster (which he merrily got away with) was overt racist identification politics?

[mckeown1128]

64. No it is not the race card... there was nothing about his gospel tour

that had anything to do with black/white... (white people went to these campaign events too.


Reaching out to voters in a state that happens to have a lot of black voters is not the same as "reminding them he was one of them"... you are symbolic of exactly what the problem is in this country... If Hillary had done the exact same type of tour you would you accuse her of playing the race card, no because she's not black. The fact that you accuse Obama of playing the race card because he happens to be black and the voters in SC happened to be largely black is cause for concern. Just because Obama is black you think he is trying to "remind them he is one of them"... which is Bullsh%t. 1/2 the dem party in SC was black... he was trying to reach out to the voters... Give me a break.

"the core cause of this disaster"(as you put it) is nothing more then a candidate who happens to be black reaching out to black voter. But to you it's a disaster that he merrily got away with... WTF. Offer some proof that he "played the race card" because all your doing is telling me is that he tried to get black voter's to vote for him.


That darn uppity black man tried to reach out to black voters... and the MSM let him get away with it :sarcasm:


Seriously, dont' you understand what is wrong with what your claiming.

[Ravy]

62. Here you go, from Media Matters...

http://mediamatters.org/items/200803040001

Now look at all the posts from Obama supporters and the Obama campaign that said the same thing as Matthews.

I think the same can be said for Hillary's remark about LBJ and civil rights..."It took a president".

I still don't like Clinton much, but had it not been for this move by the Obama campaign, I could see myself jumping on his bandwagon.

[mckeown1128]

66. Wow.. all you proved is that Chris Mathews is an ass..

I am still waiting for where the Obama campaign gets blamed for this. You say that the Obama campaign said the same things... yet I still don't see a quote or news story about it. Please provide proof that the Obama campaign (not the lone nut suppoter) has played the race card.

Basically I'm saying what "move by the Obama campaign" are you refering to.

[Perry Logan]

63. You're lucky the Hillarites didn't spit in your eye.

Obamites are always good for a laugh, when they aren't calling your sister filthy names.

The Obamites put everyone and his brother on ignore, call everyone racists, and then lecture us on logic! That's some kinda chutpah, I must say. No wonder you feel qualified to lecture...

As to the "race card," I'm a witness. I saw the whole thing with perspicuous clarity and will testify to it in any court in the land. The pattern has been 100% consistent: the Obamites throw turds, then blame the Clintons for throwing the turds.

[mckeown1128]

69. Proof please?

What move did the Obama campaign do? (not a lone Obama supporter nut)


Or are you happy just smearing and running?

[roseBudd]

67. You liberal latte loony! Don't you know the fact that a keyboard warrior types it makes it fact!

Because if keyboard warriors constantly type "Obama played the race card first!!" then the Google wil bring back lots of results for "Obama played the race card first"

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Obama+played+the+race+card+first%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[windoe]

70. Kudos for attempting a logic thread here-

I took Logic years ago and quickly realized my head would explode if I tried to apply what I learned there to the real world.
I have brother whose thinking default is set on pure logic--and he is the one with the high blood pressure.
First you would have to give a course in Logic, then you would have to deputize your logic police, and then they would burn out.... I am having some trouble envisioning how you could possibly have enough patience.

[mckeown1128]

72. kick kickity kickity kick nt