The 800-lb Gorilla in the Room

[RainDog]

that no one wants to acknowledge.

Even as I write this, I know to expect attacks. However, I think it is disingenuous to continue with all the "sexist" and "unelectable" crap coming from one part of the democratic party. So here goes.

Koch, Clinton, Ferraro - these people are part of the NY political machine. They have a large voting block that supports the state of Israel no matter what they do. This acknowledgment does not lump all Jewish voters together. Although the media in the U.S. rarely shows this fact, many, many Jewish voters in the U.S. share the political sentiments of many, many Jewish voters in Israel who want to create a peaceful solution regarding the Palestinians.

So please, do not show your ignorance by attacking this post as anti-semitic.

Clinton's big money supporters who have tried to both threaten and bribe the Democratic Party represent the sector of the vote that does not want anyone in the U.S. to put pressure on Israel to, for instance, stop the right wing settlers who are as big of a problem in Israel as the right wing fundies are in the U.S., as far as foreign policy goes.

If you are a "one issue" voter, then, yes, you would rather have a Republican who will continue the stalemate in the middle east than a Democrat who is willing to work on a peaceful solution -- even tho that Democrat has written about his respect for the issue of a Jewish state after all the fall out of the extremist nationalist period in European history that led to the Holocaust. Even tho that Democrat has a record of civil rights work and community-building.

But THIS is where the "meets with Hamas" smears come from. Such fear-mongering is an attempt to alienate a voting bloc. This is where Bush's attack before the Knesset comes from.

I respect the concerns of the one issue voters. I support Israel's right to existence -- but not at the expense of the apartheid that now exists. I do not think it has to be one or the other; however, to get beyond this black and white view of the world, someone has to be able to work with both sides on this issue.

[ShortnFiery]

1. It's vile to watch megalomaniacs in the persons of HRC and Bill Clinton DE-COMPENSATE.

They're OUT THERE and nobody has the means to stop their craven desire for the Power of The Executive Branch ... no matter what it takes, The Clintons are *All Powerful* in the deep, dark recesses of their sick minds. :thumbsdown:

[rucky]

2. the political lines have been pretty clearly drawn within the Jewish community.

IMHO. I've especially seen it since 9/11. No dem can sway the conservative Jewish vote. No republican can sway the liberal Jewish vote. You either love AIPAC or hate 'em.

[RainDog]

3. thank you for appreciating the differences

I am glad to see that many liberal Jewish voters are now trying to counter the AIPAC influence in U.S. politics. Apartheid is wrong whether it is our ally or our enemy practicing it.

[Cant trust em]

5. Israel security is where many Jews and many Republicans are good buddies

They might disagree on 90% of each other's platforms, but where Israel security comes into play they become best buddies.

[no_hypocrisy]

4. One more wrinkle: A number of the rightwing settlors originally came from

New York, such as Crown Heights (Brooklyn) and various villages in Rockland and Monroe Counties. They are ardent Zionists, many with dual citizenship, meaning they still vote in elections. And trust me, they vote and donate money to campaigns.

[RainDog]

7. good point

[Happyhippychick]

6. I love and support Israel. I also am proudly voting for Obama because I have seen nothing

in his character to suggest that he would be anything but a friend to Israel and her people.

[ladjf]

8. Sometimes it seems as though the mechanics of politics favors

megalomaniacs.

[demokatgurrl]

9. BREAKING NEWS!!! Jews are not monolithic

Check this out:
www.jewsforobama.net


and this:

http://www.pjvoice.com/

And even this:
http://www.forward.com/articles/12939/


Read a little, learn a little.

[RainDog]

12. thank you for reiterating what I said

The Jewish vote is not monolithic. I have never thought or said that it was. Obama will not lose a general election because a certain sector of the American population pretends that they represent everyone.

[mdmc]

33. read (the OP) a little,

peace and low stress:)

[jazzjunkysue]

65. But I do know some NY jews who are so wedded to the fight that they don't want

a solution. They want to get even, whatever that means.

The poster is correct. There is some old hate fuelling otherwise liberal new yorkers.

[Skidmore]

10. A sincere thank you for this post.

We must find a way for peace to exist in the ME. Enabling radicals of all stripes to fan the flames of war is not the way. Too many people have died in the cause of blind hatred and fear of "the other." I trust Obama to work with the peoples of the world toward a path of peace. I fear that the other candidates in this race will only bring more war. It is time for change.

[DangerDave921]

18. Got peace if you want it

The critical word being "want." Doesn't matter how good a speaker Obama is, BOTH sides have to want peace. And I've not seen much indication that Palestine and Hamas truly wants peace. They want to destroy Israel. Iran has said point blank it wants to destroy Israel.

[RainDog]

30. The Iranian leaders are about power

They want to win elections. What's a good thing to say among the extremists there? Why do they go for the extremist vote (beyond being there themselves?) - the liberal faction in Iran has the support of the young people. they have grown up with this govt and do not like or want these extremists.

But these guys in power know good and well that they can never try to take Israel off the map. They know Israel has nuclear weapons aimed at them and will use them. These guys in power aren't the ones going out getting their heads blown off. They don't want to die. They don't want to obliterate Iran. Therefore, they are not going to attack Israel's existence via war. That would be suicide and they know it. They're NOT the poor rubes they send out to bomb a mktplace. Do you really think for a minute they're willing to give up the money and power they have accrued for a lost cause? This issue is as much about them maintaining power as it is for the right wing religious faction here.

If you have followed politics in Israel - do you also remember when Sharon purposely tried to inflame the situation at the Wailing Wall/Dome of the Rock? Do you really think it is honest to claim that Israel wants peace? I don't think that's honest because the actions of too many have been made to stop any peaceful process. It's not just one side.

[DangerDave921]

34. peace at what price?

Yes I do believe Israel wants peace. I don't think Israel is the aggressor in all of this. But peace at what price? Israel gets pushed and pushed and pushed, with ever-increasing demands for concessions. Is Israel supposed to accept every concession demanded of them for the sake of peace?

If the price is too high, it's not peace. It's victimization.

[RainDog]

35. How does Israel get pushed and pushed and pushed?

frankly I haven't seen one moment of any sort of pressure on them from the United States over the last 8 years, and certainly not much of anything before that.

What concessions are you talking about? What concessions has Israel made?

The state of Israel really isn't the victim in this situation. The victims are the everyday people on both sides who want to live in peace.

[DangerDave921]

37. too complex

This issue is really too complex for short internet blurbs back and forth. I would suggest some reading on the issue.

[RainDog]

47. I have read up on this issue and that's why I take issue with your remark

I do not think that any reasonable person could say, with any honesty, that Israel has been pushed and pushed and pushed. In fact, I think it's ludicrous.

Have they been pushed and pushed by making it almost impossible for Palestinians to make enough money to survive? By cutting down the olive trees that are a source of income and food in Palestinian areas? Have they been pushed and pushed by building a wall to ghettoize and entire group of people, regardless of their views, but based only upon their ethnic identity? Have they been pushed and pushed by lying about a nuclear program and then imprisoning Vanunu, who admitted it? Who they then labeled as a spy, falsely?

Are they pushed and pushed by the foreign aid they receive every year from the U.S.? Are they pushed and pushed by the enormous support Israel receives from the religious right here who only support Israel b/c they want god to destroy it? Kyle-Lieberman? Is that the pushed and pushed you're talking about?

This particular belief is not representative of reality. However, it is the media spin.

[DangerDave921]

48. Yes

They have been pushed and pushed. If left to their own devices, I believe Israel wants to be left alone. Apparently, we disagree.

[RainDog]

51. Apparently recent history disagrees with you as well.

[Leopolds Ghost]

72. If Israel wants to be left alone, why do they ask us for arms shipments

To support a nonsensical occupation and apartheid-style ghettoization
of Samaria (aka the West Bank) and Philaestina (aka the Gaza strip),
areas which have neither been integral to the kingdom of Israel nor
majority Jewish since the early Second Temple period? Judea has
always been a mixed-heritage area which is why it has always been
fought over. Israel has West Jerusalem; if left alone, what would
they do with the West Bank?

Oh yeah, and don't bother attacking me on this -- from a (Christian left) perspective, I am a Zionist.

[Orangepeel]

11. most Jewish voters will vote for Obama

http://www.gallup.com/poll/107059/Obama-Beats-McCain-Among-Jewish-Voters.aspx

Obama Beats McCain Among Jewish Voters
Trails Clinton by slim margin among Jewish Democrats for the nomination

In terms of the general election, Jewish voters nationwide are nearly as likely to say they would vote for Obama if he were the Democratic nominee running against the Republican McCain (61%), as to say they would vote for Clinton (66%).

[RainDog]

14. I think this is an important point to continue to make

sometimes those of us who are not all about identity politics get lost among the screams of sexism, racism, hillaryism, ismism...

[anigbrowl]

21. I agree. The problem is that extremists are always the ones who shout loudest and get most attention

[Arugula Latte]

57. Many -- not all, I repeat, not all -- Jews are well educated, which

makes them more likely to vote for Obama.

[rucky]

59. The Jewish conservatives in my family

are extremely well educated. Ivy Leaguers. They're impossible to reason with on this issue, and voted for Bush because of this issue. It's maddening.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

13. It's common sense to assume people often look out for their own self interests

Why should it be politically incorrect to suggest Israelis and many in the American Jewish community to be any different?

Doesn't mean those self interest are in the best interests of the US.

Most of us grew up never questioning US support of Israel, but the times are changing. We have given so much in blood and treasure
and Israel still refuses to budge. Nothing will change until we refuse to support financially and militarily the current Israeli position.

[LeftishBrit]

68. What 'blood' have you ever sacrificed for Israel?

I disagree with a lot of Israel's policies, and agree with Anigbrowl's post below; but I am sick of the idea that Israel is in any way responsible for any of America's wars.

[knixphan]

15. K&R for great minds thinking alike :)

:yourock:

[WinkyDink]

16. "I support Israel's right to existence"~~~How big of you. Israel and the U.N. thank you.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

19. I support Israel's right to existence too. I await your sarcastic reply.

:crazy:

[anigbrowl]

22. If they don't say it, condemn them. If they do, call them egotistical.

A typical debating tactic from people who don't want to address the core issue at hand.

[JuniperLea]

27. You are so very correct...

These are magic words that make all discussion on the issues cease. It is clear that there are many who do not want these issues viewed too closely or discussed too thoroughly. My nature is to do exactly the opposite of what the meme screaming dictates.

[RainDog]

25. You're not even an effective troll

and people are really tired of this bullshit.

[reflection]

17. Oh, sorry. I thought

this was going to be a thread on Rush Limbaugh. Carry on.

[anigbrowl]

20. I'm going to reply with a post I wrote on another msg board earlier today

The background is that we were talking about the peace process in Norterhn Ireland how it compares to the situation in the middle east. The first quote is from a conservative on the message board who I was discussing this with.

ILikeHardPlay:
The bottom line is that no one at the table was talking at the same time they were engaging in or encouraging violence. That there was a declared cease-fire by the parties involved in talks....prior to their being seated at a table. Which certainly qualifies as a PRECONDITION.

For some people that wasn't enough; they wanted the IRA to completely renounce violence and destroy all their weapons before holding any talks, while the IRA types were adamant that there could be no solution to the political process until the troops were removed.

going back to the original political context, they've had numerous cease-fires down in Israel between them and the Palestinians, but that isn't good enough for some conservatives, who complain that ceasefires have collapsed before and they must have XYZ from Israel or the Palestinians before talks can even begin. Iran isn't even at war with anyone at present, but conservatives here demand that they do something to mollify us before we can have any discussions with them.

You rightly point out that acts of violence that went on during the peace process were largely renegade attempts to derail or do an end-run around the talks that were going, but when we're discussing Israel and Palestine you always demand that absolutely all violence must cease and blame the Palestinian leadership for any outbreaks or ceasefire violations.

I mean look at this timeline of events in Northern Ireland (which is pretty accurate and comprehensive): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_peace_process - there were all sorts of false starts, derailments, and breakdowns, with plenty of violence and terrorism and 'I told you so' to go round. It's far from smooth sailing, and it's not as if Northern Ireland today is an oasis of peace and good feeling. But the general consensus is that we seem to have arrived at a long-term solution that will last for the foreseeable future.

If this is good enough for Northern Ireland, then it's good enough for Israel and Palestine. I reject arguments along the lines of 'but they're muslims, they have some crazy martyrdom complex' - the whole time I was growing up, there was endless talk of IRA martyrs and allegations that the Pope was happy for protestants to get killed and so on. The conflict was deeply ingrained into society - growing up in the south of Ireland you knew which of you neighbors were involved with the IRA and how to spot unmarked police cars. I could take you round to places and say 'this house used to shelter terrorists, that pub over there was used for fundraising and money laundering'.

The situations are really not all that different. From what I see Hamas is the best chance for Middle Eastern peace in a long time and are seriously interested in working things out with the Israelis. All this debate about appeasement and preconditions is wank from an administration and its backers who can't deal with the fact that their policies have failed, so they're objecting loudly to anyone who proposes trying a different approach.

Well, too fucking bad, Mr Bush - you had your chance and you blew it. It's time for a fresh approach, and I believe the one that involves talking to people like Hamas, Iran etc. is the one that has the best chance of succeeding. Yeah, it'll mean having tea and cakes with people who have blood on their hands. That's the nature of politics. Northern Ireland was exactly the same way, but now the regional government there is headed by two guys who spent decades encouraging their followers to kill each other and swore up and down that their side wouldn't blink first, no way would they allow their followers lives to be sacrificed for nothing yadda yadda yadda.

When it gets down to it, conflicts like this are not about how many people were died or injured along the way. Everybody dies sooner or later anyway. If it's not a bomb it could be a car acciedent or a disease. What really upsets people is being humiliated by their enemy. That's a psychological injury that never heals properly. People on both sides of a conflict tend to perpetuate not because they really have a burning desire for revenge but because they're afraid that if they do agree to a compromise and it doesn't work out, they're going to be on the receiving end of mass collective humiliation.

[LeftishBrit]

70. As a British citizen, I strongly agree with most of this

I don't think that Hamas are the 'best hope for peace' however. They are as RW and warmongering as anyone around. However, they exist at present, and not talking to them won't make them stop existing. As was the case with the IRA and Protestant paramilitary factions as well.

In fact, there is evidence that Israelis are talking to them on an unofficial level, just as the British government was talking to the IRA for several years before they formally admitted it.

[haymakeragain]

23. Jews for McSame!!!!!!

I don't think you can lump all the Jewish people in that group. What you are talking about is zionist types, AIPAC, etc. There ain't no pleasing them short of nuking all the Arabs so that they can have their "rightful" nation.

It's a minority.

[RainDog]

24. You said what I said

I didn't claim a majority. I said a particular voting bloc. Very, very different. However, the reality is that right now Hillary's money is coming from one particular voting bloc that is willing to try to sink the democratic nomination if they think it would help their one issue.

Why else would Koch say he would vote for McCain? Because he's smarter? Because the last 8 years have been so great?

[haymakeragain]

29. Isreal/Palestine is so problematic, from both angles.

I have no solutions, just bitterness. Everyone is way too entrenched. I do believe that our press doesn't report the whole story and that politicians only use the issue for their power grab.

We need a fresh approach, not the same old shit. I hope what you see is not big enough to derail Obama if he gets the nod. that would be truly sad.

[msallied]

26. What a beautifully constructed, thoughtful post. Huge K&R.

[Texas Hill Country]

28. NY machine has NOTHING on Chicago... NOTHING. I find it funny that fact gets ignored.

[RainDog]

31. I don't ignore it. But it has nothing to do with the subject of this post

The Clintons also have their political machine that is part of a southern coalition. The Bay Area has a powerful voting bloc too. This also has nothing to do with this post.

[uponit7771]

32. Kyle-Lieberman might be more imperical truth

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RainDog]

38. care to back up that hysteria?

is this the Rezko/Obama loves Saddam Hussein crap?

What "Islamists" are you talking about. Name names and give credible links, please.

Otherwise, this is just more bullshit from the Hillary camp.

[cali]

39. if you honestly believe that crap, you are truly on the wrong web

site. Don't even thing about peddling that kind of falsehood here when he's the official presumptive nominee in a couple of short weeks.

[Indenturedebtor]

40. What is an islamist exactly? And what closeness?

His denouncing of Farrakhan? Are there more? His family name?

No matter who the candidate they would have to weather baseless smears. Remember swift boat?

[RainDog]

55. Maybe it's the former Bill Clinton staffer, Robert Malley, who was falsely smeared

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/05/obama_adviser_c_1.html

Robert Malley, a former Clinton administration officials, held the meetings as part of his job with the International Crisis Group in the Middle East.

But Obama has been squabbling with Republican John McCain over Hamas. On Thursday, Obama accused McCain of trying to smear him by suggesting that Hamas wants him to win the presidency.

Malley told NBC that he was becoming a "distraction" so he thought it best to disassociate himself from the Obama campaign.

---------
International Crisis Group in the Middle East is part of a larger org. that operates on every continent in this world.

http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm

---------

The International Crisis Group (ICG) is an independent, international, non-profit, non-governmental organization whose mission is to prevent and resolve deadly conflicts around the world through field-based analyses and high-level advocacy.

The ICG is considered the world’s leading independent, non-partisan, source of analysis and advice to governments, and intergovernmental bodies like the United Nations, European Union and World Bank, on the prevention and resolution of deadly conflict. Its primary goals are a unique combination of field-based analysis, sharp-edged policy prescription, and high-level advocacy, with key roles being played by a senior management team highly experienced in government and by a highly active Board of Trustees containing many senior diplomats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Crisis_Group

[Indenturedebtor]

67. Yeah damn Obama for associating with peacemakers.

What a fool :eyes:

I wonder if the best way forward wouldn't be to have a non governmental agency mediate the talks.

Say a bunch of rabbis and imams?

What do you guys think?

[VotesForWomen]

74. well, HAMAS for starters; it might not be right, but when these people basically 'endorse' Obama, wh

which they will, it suggests some sort of mutual relationship, and that will mean serious trouble not only for O in the GE, but for the democratic party for years to come. and btw, apparently his favorite pastor wright was a member of the nation of islam before he became a christian and was still associating with farakhan in recent years. then add the fact that obama only has one american parent and most of his family is muslim, and that's going to be too much for a lot of people to take. and look, i'm an athiest, so i don't have a dog in this fight, but i also speak enough arabic to be able to read arabic newspapers, websites, chatrooms, etc., and what i hear straight from the horse's mouth so to speak, is pretty scary. here's a clue to all you israel haters: most arab/muslims (not living in western countries) would literally like to see israel wiped off the map and they celebrate whenever israelis are killed in attacks, etc., and i'm not talking about 'extremists;' i'm talking about average people and governments. just as an example, the iranian state run tv news station doesn't show israel on the maps they use; it's called 'occupied palestine.' i could go on, but i know the leftists here will not be convinced; my point is simply that this is a catastrophic swiftboat attack waiting to happen. anybody who doesn't think it will happen needs to put down the koolaid.

[Indenturedebtor]

76. I agree

They will ride that pony with everything they have. But if it wasn't this it would be something else.

There are many people on DU who espouse the same crap: He supports Israel!?!?!? That evil bastard! There will always be some garbage like this in every GE.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Bullshit.

Ha'aretz: Obama Supports Israel. Period.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/foreignpolicy/

On Israel

* Ensure a Strong U.S.-Israel Partnership: Barack Obama strongly supports the U.S.-Israel relationship, believes that our first and incontrovertible commitment in the Middle East must be to the security of Israel, America's strongest ally in the Middle East. Obama supports this closeness, stating that that the United States would never distance itself from Israel.
* Support Israel's Right to Self Defense: During the July 2006 Lebanon war, Barack Obama stood up strongly for Israel's right to defend itself from Hezbollah raids and rocket attacks, cosponsoring a Senate resolution against Iran and Syria's involvement in the war, and insisting that Israel should not be pressured into a ceasefire that did not deal with the threat of Hezbollah missiles. He believes strongly in Israel's right to protect its citizens.
* Support Foreign Assistance to Israel: Barack Obama has consistently supported foreign assistance to Israel. He defends and supports the annual foreign aid package that involves both military and economic assistance to Israel and has advocated increased foreign aid budgets to ensure that these funding priorities are met. He has called for continuing U.S. cooperation with Israel in the development of missile defense systems.

[2rth2pwr]

42. What should Israel do, give up Gaza?

[JCMach1]

43. They own Gaza? First I heard about it...

might want to ask a few of my students about that one...

[2rth2pwr]

45. Hamas now has control of the Gaza strip, my question was an attempt at

sarcasm.

[JCMach1]

50. my bad, this thread is particuliarly bad!

Just two things we need to know...


Hillary is not on AIPAC payroll

AND

Obama doesn't keep an Arafat poster in his office toilet...


Sigh, will the primaries ever end?

[RainDog]

53. I didn't claim Hillary was on the AIPAC payroll

if you read my OP, this would be apparent.

[JCMach1]

75. Not even the OP,,, just the polarities of the usual

posters...

[Warren DeMontague]

44. What the fuck are you talking about now?

Israel doesn't WANT Gaza, frankly.

They want the rockets to stop, and I don't blame em.

[2rth2pwr]

46. What should Israel do as it's part to get peace in the region, it already has

let Hamas control the Gaza strip yet the rockets still come.

[Warren DeMontague]

49. I agree. But my Israeli in-laws, including the ones who fought in '67 and '73

all understand what indefinite occupation has done to the Israeli soul and psyche. It can't continue forever- and that's from the Israeli perspective. There needs to be some sort of resolution.

[LeftishBrit]

71. You are absolutely right, I also have Israeli relatives, who say the same,

It can't carry on this way forever. There has to be a solution, with two secure states and an end to the occupation, and both sides are going to have to make compromises.

[RainDog]

52. let Hamas?

When I look at reportage from the region it appears that Hamas was elected by the Palestinians in Gaza. Not that I think that's great, but that's the truth. Then Hamas fought a mini-civil war to gain power there 18 months after they were elected. The Palestinian Authority and Hamas are now a split in leadership.

In truth, I am not smart enough to figure out how to solve this issue. However, the right wing talking points about this issue do not help to solve it at all, and that's one thing I know for sure.

[npincus]

54. excuse me, friend.

A MAJORITY of Jewish voters are hardcore, committed Dems and will vote for Obama.

[RainDog]

56. thank you for reiterating what I said

please re-read the OP.

[sfaprog]

58. One thing...

While I do support the right of Israel to exist, I'm very concerned with the harsh treatment they have dealt Palestinians. But the Palestinians have been offered their own sovereignty, their own nation... and they turned it down, because they demanded the right of Arab refugees from Israel to return. This will never happen, it's a no-brainer that they can't live amongst each other, and I don't understand why the Palestinians push for this at the expense of their own sovereignty?

[RainDog]

61. I don't understand this either. No one can win a zero sum game

And no peace is possible if two sides refuse to negotiate. And Hamas refused to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, so this has created yet another problem.

As I said, I don't have the answers to these issues. The main point of my post was to say... maybe this voting bloc is the reason that Ferraro and Koch are now threatening to vote for McCain.

I wish I did have the answers to this issue because it is used for propaganda among the rr Christians here and the rr among muslims in nations that don't have to fix their own problems b/c of the issue of Israel, and among the rr settlers who continue to encroach on lands that are supposedly Palestinian territory.

[Indenturedebtor]

60. Too much is ascribed to Jews in politics in many ways

First of all it is constantly assumed here that the foremost issue on the minds of Jews is Israel. It's not.

You might be surprised to learn that most American Jews care first and foremost about America! Consider for a moment that just because someone is Jewish and rich, that they may support a candidate for other reasons than the "Israel Issue".

You might also be surprised to learn that many Jews understand political nuance, and can smell Republican bullshit. The pukes are courting the ignorant dipshit base of theirs with this round of "appeasement" nonsense. They know that Jews have pretty much always voted Democratic.

It seems to be the general consensus around here that Jews generally want America to attack Iraq and Iran. If this were the case then why did most Jews vote for Kerry?

The cries of antisemitism largely come from two general asssumptions around here:

1) The general one sided view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This idea of Israel as the constant and only aggressor. This idea that Israel can do no right and the Palestinians and other countries in the region are always the passive victims.

2) The general assumption that whenever the US does anything that could remotely be construed as benefiting Israel, or as being anti-arab or anti-muslim, it is because the omnipotent Joos are truly running everything for their ultimate goal of global domination.

You see whenever a politician is Pro-Israel it is assumed that the only reason could be that they are being secretly manipulated and led around by the nose by the Joos. Just because a politician doesn't want to meet with Hamas unless it stops screaming "KILL ALL THE JEWS"... well you get my drift.

Carter (who is anything but Pro-Israel), recently tried to meet with Hamas. How did that go again? Oh that's right. They basically told him there would be no ceasefire or talks until Israel surrenders. :eyes: How do you suggest dealing with them? They don't even want to talk FFS. But that little episode has pretty much been forgotten by now. Right along with all the other peaceful overtures and offers that have been made and rejected. But I'm sure there's a conspiracy theory out there that explains that in terms of how "The Jooooos Did It!"

What a mess.

[RainDog]

64. did you even bother to read my OP?

because your reply has nothing to do with it. if you will note, I also talked about the problem with Hamas. This post isn't really about Israel per se. It's about a voting bloc and the very strange things being said by Koch and Ferraro. that's all.

there is no conspiracy theory here at all and to even say that shows a severe problem with reading comprehension.

[Indenturedebtor]

66. I did and if you'll notice -

My reply vacillated between responding directly to you and to offering my own opinions. I didn't accuse you of conspiracy theory or antisemitism.

I did contest a couple of your points though.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

62. Obama does much better with Jewish voters than McCain

see Gallup 62% Obama to 39% McBush

[Doityourself]

63. Excellent open-minded post!

[anonymous171]

69. I've noticed this. GOP has been trying to start a "Jewish Flight" from the dems for a while

Ever since Obama looked like he was going to win the nomination, they've been smearing him as some kind of Israel hater.

[Eric J in MN]

73. Because Geraldine Ferraro is from NY,

...therefore she must prefer John McCain over Barack Obama because of McCain's position on Israel? NO.