Alright, Obama supporters, I admit I was wrong

[democrattotheend]

I said that we should stop worrying about Hillary Clinton and what she says and does, but her conference call with bloggers last night made me realize how wrong I was. I still think we should stop needlessly trashing her, but we also need to stay vigilant. I wrote in a new Kos diary about what I think her objectives are at this point: the stealth campaign for 2012. Please rec it there and here and help call attention to this.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/17/201822/559/46/517625

I have a confession to make. I've gotten complacent. For the past week and a half, I have not made many phone calls, and I laughed off Obama's 41-point loss in West Virginia. I have been telling Obama supporters in the blogosphere to lay off of Clinton, figuring she was just staying in until Tuesday or until the end of the primaries and then would bow out gracefully. I did not think we needed to worry much about what she says or does anymore.

Last night, I got a wake-up call. I listened to the audio of her conference call with bloggers, which a DUer was kind enough to partially transcribe, and I realized that while she may bow out on June 4 and endorse Obama and encourage her supporters to vote for him, there's more to her strategy than meets the eye. I don't think she is planning to take this to the Convention, and she could be angling for the VP slot. But there's a far more troubling possibility here. From the sound of what she encouraged her bloggers to push last night, it sounds like she is trying to delegitimize him or cloud his legitimacy when he eventually clinches the nomination, as part of a stealth campaign for 2012.

democrattotheend's diary :: ::
On the call last night, she reiterated her claim that she is ahead in the popular vote, which is only true if you give her her votes from Michigan but give Obama 0 AND don't count the four caucus states that don't release vote totals. This would mean ignoring 4 states when she claims it would be a travesty to ignore 2. In addition, she encouraged bloggers to push the idea that caucuses are undemocratic, and she continues to talk about Michigan and Florida, both on the conference call and in her public appearances.

She said that if Michigan and Florida are not seated, "it will undermine the legitimacy of our nominee". She knows that Michigan and Florida will not put her ahead in the delegate count, and that the only chance of them helping her with the popular vote is if the will of Michigan voters is misconstrued by giving Obama no votes despite thousands of people there who wanted to vote for him. But by continuing to harp on Michigan and Florida, she can continue to, as she said, undermine the legitimacy of our nominee.

Her continued focus on Michigan and Florida, as well as her complaints about caucuses being undemocratic and her very dubious claim that she leads in the popular vote are troubling because they seem designed to create doubt that Obama has earned the nomination fair and square. She knows that if she tried to go to the convention, the superdelegates would come out for Obama to give him the majority, and she would look like a saboteur dragging it out in hopes that they change their mind. But by confusing the facts and casting doubt on his legitimacy, she can encourage resentment among her supporters that will persist even if she drops out after June 4 and endorses Obama. If they feel that she was pushed out illegitimately, at least some of her supporters may decide to sit it out or vote for McCain in hopes of giving her another chance in 2012.

In addition to creating questions about Obama's legitimacy as the nominee, she played the gender card yet again last night. She said that she "deeply regrets the vitriol and the mean-spiritedness and the terrible insults and rhetoric that has been thrown around at you for supporting me, at women in general, at many of those who support my campaign because of who they are and their stand based on principle." This is not the first time she has claimed that she is being treated differently because of her gender, and it appears to encourage women who feel she has been mistreated because she is a woman to keep feeling that way.

This, like the talking points designed to cloud Obama's legitimacy in terms of the math, could be part of a strategy to fan the flames of resentment among her supporters, particularly women. Yes, she may bow out gracefully after the primaries are over, but she wants to make sure her supporters are as disappointed and even angry when she does. She appears to want them to feel that she was wronged, making it harder for them to turn around and support Obama. She'll bow out eventually and give a speech that will probably tug at people's heartstrings and make them wistful, with some people perhaps hoping that she gets another chance in 4 years.

This may sound paranoid, but there are several factors that could exacerbate the temptation among her supporters to wait it out. McCain is 71 and may only serve 1 term, and unfortunately, many people still perceive him as moderate enough to tolerate for four years. The fact that the Democrats are likely to retain the majorities in Congress could make this worse, as people may feel more complacent about McCain being president because they think he'll be limited in what he can do by a Democratic Congress.

So if there really is a stealth campaign for 2012 going on already, what can we do about it? The answer is not to continue to spew hatred towards her here or anywhere else in the blogosphere, as we have unfortunately done too much of this season, helping to create this situation where many Clinton activists have hardened toward Obama. Please refrain from saying anything that could possibly be construed as sexist, as this will only exacerbate the problem. Instead, focus your energy on helping Obama run up the popular vote total, and stay vigilant. I have described a few steps for action below:

First, keep making calls to Kentucky and Oregon, especially Oregon. Clinton seems to be gaining in the polls there, and it's possible that Obama's supporters may be more complacent about returning their ballots because they think it's over. It's too late to mail the ballots and ensure that they will arrive in time, but the campaign is offering to pick up people's ballots and deliver them. We need to make phone calls to let people know that. It's important for Obama to run up as big of a popular vote margin there as possible to take away any claim she might have to it.

Second, we need to hold Clinton's feet to the fire. She will most likely do more town halls between now and June 4. She claims she is not afraid of tough questions, so people who live in Montana and South Dakota should go and ask her some. Don't go as Obama supporters...go as voters. Ask her why she claims it would be a travesty if Michigan and Florida were excluded but thinks it's okay to exclude the caucus results from Iowa, Maine, Nebraska and Washington in her popular vote count. Ask her why she praised caucuses and called them a "wonderful tradition" before Iowa, and now claims they are undemocratic. Most importantly, ask her if she plans to run in 2012 if she does not get the nomination this year, and whether she will rule out running against a sitting Democratic president. She will probably waffle and evade the question, but by at least asking the question, we can put it out there and hopefully get the media to question whether she is running for 2012 right now. If you see any news organizations planning to interview her and soliciting ideas for questions, post the question about 2012 on their blogs as well.

Finally, we need to write to news organizations and blogs and refute this baloney about her being ahead in the popular vote. If she creates the impression that she is ahead in the popular vote, no matter how selective and misleading her metrics are, it will really damage Obama's legitimacy, especially among Democrats who remain bitter about Florida 2000. And we can help to debunk her caucus argument by pointing out that she called them a "wonderful tradition" on her website, and now claims they are undemocratic. Point out that many of the caucus states have laws that require employers to give time off to vote if voting is not available outside of their work hours, and that her campaign failed to inform people that they had the right to this time off. Encourage news organizations to stop reporting her ridiculous spin about caucuses, the popular vote, and Michigan and Florida that are clearly designed to delegitimize Obama as the nominee.

[BlooInBloo]

1. :) Lesson learned. We move on.

[Occam Bandage]

2. Agreed. That conference call was very disturbing. She's trying to take the party down with her.

[democrattotheend]

3. I didn't want to believe that

I have suspected it for a long time, since Kerry endorsed Obama. But I did not want to believe that she would be that selfish. Even though I am an Obama supporter, I have long admired Hillary, and I did not want to believe that she would be selfish enough to sabotage Obama's chances to give herself another chance in 4 years. But it really feels like that's what she's doing by sending her bloggers out to cast doubts on his legitimacy, and it's sickening.

[TBF]

23. What did you think she was doing when she ran that ad suggesting

she and McCain were the only ones capable of running the country? That was one of the more selfish repulsive acts, but I'm sure it wasn't the first. She didn't just want to sabotage his chances in 4 years, she was trying to sabotage his chances NOW.

The OP is right - she is not to be underestimated.

[WillyToad]

76. What a bunch of BS

Will you be able to turn off the hate once she bows out, or will your obsession and conspiracy theories haunt you for the rest of your life, as is the case with the GOP?

[Ken Burch]

97. You're saying the conference call was no big deal?

Er..why?

Don't you have to make a case against the OP?

[dsomuah]

114. Yes we will!!!

I will be the first person to pledge that if she bows out without hurting the nominee I will be content to never mention her in threads for the rest of the election.

Now start rounding up the women in grey pantsuits.

[PassingFair]

99. As a woman, I was VERY disturbed by her conference call.

Blaming her losses on misogyny.

Inflaming her female supporters.

It was disgusting.

:puke:

[pnwmom]

106. I didn't think she was blaming her losses on misogyny, just acknowledging

that it was there.

And it WAS. (Including plenty of it right here on DU.)

[democracy1st]

111. I don't see Obama blaming racism for loosing any votes

[roseBudd]

4. Luckily her ability to garner press is shrinking and the majority of the electorate does not hang

out on lefty blogs.

HRC supporters deploying the latest talking point on DU are not changing minds.

[democrattotheend]

5. Maybe I am overestimating the number of women who feel slighted

But it just seems like it's a lot...those women in Ohio scare me...and people on Kos have reported having conversations with older women in real life who are thinking of sitting this out or going for McCain because they feel Hillary was wronged.

[emilyg]

7. I don't go to Kos

but they are right about the older women.

[havocmom]

25. I'm older, a woman, a 'hard workin white' woman and lack a college degree

I will vote for the party's nominee. If it's HRC, I will hold my nose and vote anyway, and then hurl for an hour, but I will vote for the DEM nominee.

[barbtries]

82. i am a 52 year old woman

who will vote for clinton only if that's the name next to the D. i have already voted for obama once and plan to do so again.

[anitar1]

88. I am a much older woman and voting for Obama.

I am not a stupid person. although I hope for a woman president someday, Obama is my choice. Hilary is not and never will be. I have quite a few OLDER women friends who are voting for Obama, here in Oregon.no more Clintons in the White House. Nafta stinks and has led to a lot of misery in our world.

[leftofcool]

9. There are indeed a lot

There are several new organizations of women who are going to what they call "stop the vote" The petition in my state has over 500 hundred thousand names on it. I am not sure how many in other states.

[democrattotheend]

10. What does "stop the vote" mean?

Does that mean stay home in November, or is it just an effort to get the media to stop calling it over before all the states vote? I find it hard to believe that 500,000 Democrats in one state have signed a petition pledging not to vote for Obama.

[leftofcool]

30. I just know what they tell me..........just the messenger

[dchill]

52. It's bullshit.

"500,000 Democrats in one state." Maryland, if leftofcool is being honest. Here are the 2008 Maryland Democratic Primary results:

Barack Obama 532,665 60.7% 43 (42)
Hillary Clinton 314,211 35.8% 27 (28)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_Democratic_primary,_2008#Results

Doesn't seem to be enough for a 500,000 protest petition to me.

[bvar22]

69. Agreed. More BullShit (Lies) from the Hillary camp.

If Hillary were a DEMOCRAT, she would put a stop to this plan to get Republicans elected......instead, she is fanning the flames of division.

[slinkerwink]

14. I really wish these women would realize that Obama won the race by playing by the rules

He isn't stealing this nomination from her at all. He just ran a better campaign than she did.

[anigbrowl]

I think you're lying. Let's see a source for that 500,000 figure.

From an independent source please, not their own publicity or press releases.

[leftofcool]

26. I dont know that much about this group

They were a group in front of our local grocery store with petitions. Just know what they told me. You had to be a registered voter in my state to sign any peition. I saw them again (not all the same women) while we were on vacation in WV. I haven't bothered to track them down yet but probably will this week.

[anigbrowl]

58. Right...you just believe whatever people tell you

And we're supposed to take such reports seriously? If they had gathered 500,000 signatures in the time they claimed it'd be national news. If you believe this BS then I've got a bridge to sell you...in Minnesota.

[tavalon]

103. Get this through your thick skull

She was just the messenger and she obviously didn't see it as a big enough problem to get every last little piece of information you demand. In other words, back off, your acting like an ass.

[Divernan]

19. Show me the link on this one please-this is precisely the kind of BIG LIE HRC dishes out.

or that her supporters throw out. Like claiming she raised $10 million overnight. And aren't you a big HRC supporter?

[leftofcool]

27. I am a Hillary supporter

You might type in Democrats for Clinton is a search engine to get the info you are looking for.

[anigbrowl]

22. I think you're lying. Let's see a source for that 500,000 figure.

From an independent source please, not their own publicity or press releases.

[merh]

33. Do you have a link that supports the numbers?

thanks in advance.

[leftofcool]

36. You would have to find this group and ask

This is not an online petition. You had to be a registered voter in my state to sign it.

[merh]

37. so it is an annoymous petition in your state by some group?

I find it hard to believe they have been able to obtain 500,000 names or signatures if that is the case (and without the internet as a resource).

is there some article about the group?

[leftofcool]

40. I dont think it is anonymous.

I might have thought that had I not seen them again while vacationing in another state. I only know this one was about stopping the vote. You might start at the NOW web site or email them to see if the know anything about it. NOW is a big supporter of Hillary and they may be involved in some campaigns or their members might be. I really don;t know.

[merh]

55. So you are posting about some petition that allegedly contains

500,000 signatures but you don't know who it is that proposed it and is circulating it and you have no proof of the petition and/or sponsor.

Mmmmkay.

[merh]

38. There is this youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krzc4_4m8XU

and some propaganda about the Iraqi election that was called "stop the vote"

[Divernan]

81. NO. YOU, I repeat, YOU better find this group before you spread preposterous claims on DU

You keep dancing around, saying "I really don't know. . . .I'm just the messenger. . . ." and telling people who challenge your undocumented claims that others need to look it up. Do you realize you have just painted yourself as a gullible fool who repeats whatever she's told by anyone in the Clinton camp?

You are the antithesis of a true feminist: To quote from a novel (Suite Francaise) by a French Jewish woman, Irene Nemirovsky, who died in a concentration camp and was describing a character who wouldn't think for herself:
"She needed a voice of authority to tell her what to believe. Once pointed in the right direction,there could be no stopping her. Even if given absolute proof she was mistaken, she would reply with a cold, condescending smile, 'My father said so . . . . (or) my husband is very well-infornmed.. . .' And she would make a little dismissive gesture with her gloved hand."

If you are "just a messenger", take this message back to HRC's camp followers. They have cried "wolf" far too often for their word to be taken at face value, and we will ALWAYS demand proof of their claims - particularly in an area involving numbers, whether supporters claimed, or fund raising/spending claims.

[tavalon]

104. Jaskass often?

[slinkerwink]

It's why we have to be magnamious as Obama supporters towards these women.

[leftofcool]

28. As a Hillary supporter, I don't think you have to do that at all

[slinkerwink]

67. I do think it's my responsibility to reach out to Clinton supporters

because we need them. I've never called Hillary any sexist epithets, and I think she has been a very formidable candidate who has fought hard, but she was out-campaigned by Barack Obama. He's just better organized than she was, and ran a better campaign which allowed him to win the nomination. I want Hillary to remain in the Democratic Party, because I know as a part of the oncoming Democratic majority, she'll be a great fighter to have to lay into the Republicans.

[anigbrowl]

17. Wronged my ass...she's been a big old entitlement queen

She parachuted into a safe senate seat because of being married to Bill. And she'd have come in for a lot more criticism from her primary opponents if they hadn't wanted to show respect towards a former President and First Lady.

If it wasn't for the falk that calling her on her lies would give the GOP an opportunityt o yelp 'we told you so' about the Clinton administration, this would have been over long ago.

If she were plain old Hillary Rodham, governor or senator of the state of Down-home-a, this would have been over long ago.

If she didn't have ability to write almost $12 million in personal loan checks to her campaign, this would have been over long ago.

If push comes to shove, my hope and expectation is that the MANY other successful and accomplished women in the Democratic party will publicly rebuke her, and say they've been doing just fine as Democrats, as women, and on their own two feet as she has. It burns me when other people who have worked just as hard or harder than Hillary Clinton are expected to get in line behind her while she plays blame games that make Democrats look like the party of the whiners. How dare she or her supporters put her success ahead of the country's needs, or imply that Hillary's personal progress is something that others should sacrifice for!

[emilyg]

32. People like you

don't make me like Obama more.

[SoCalDem]

112. Yep.. If she had DIVORCED him, and moved to IL or PA or AR or another homestate

and THEN run for office as Hillary Rodham (former-Clinton)..professional woman, she would have had some credibility, but she stood on horndog's shoulders and let him push her into office... then she claimed HIS resume as hers, and now she's complaining because she's NOT him, and people are just not that "into her"..

[MindMatter]

35. How many of them voted in the last election?

I have a strong suspicion that the most strident of the Hillary supports have never been very politically active. They are just taken with the idea of a woman being in charge of men for a change. I get that.

If a woman has been politically engaged for decades, then she must know that there are a great many things wrong today, brought upon us by GOP policies. Those women should be supporting Obama and the WHOLE Democratic ticket in November.

When the final analysis of the Hillary campaign is written, we will see that her true support among Democrats wasn't nearly as strong as it appeared. We will never know how that might have played out in November. We know for certain that there were a large number of false flag votes for her in the Primaries, and those would have gone to McCain in November. What we will never know is how many GOP women would have crossed over to vote for her in November, and will now vote for McCain instead.

We cannot deny that is a significant number. Many women apparently have more conviction about their Y chromosome count than they do about the political system in the US. This will be a loss, but I believe Obama will overcome that loss by appealing to young voters. And he is going to get 5 million votes from well-educated Republicans who did not vote for Bill Clinton, Gore, or Kerry.

[Maria Wr]

93. I've been poitically engaged for a while..

I'm a woman who was pleased about the choices my party presented. It seemed we could go wrong, we had a savvy senator from NY and an equally capable senator from IL. We have this election to lose, it is our time as Demorcrats to make the party our party. The party that listens and responds to it's constituents instead of "So?" (That one grpies my a**)WE have the chance to do something totally out of the box here. I lived through the Clinton years, and they were generally good for me, given my vocation, but rights issues were a concern. The Bush years have been very disappointing. Nothing got done. Money was looted. Fat rats got fatter. We got poorer. Access to education started shifting from grants to loans, then the costs of college got higher.
Anyone who would vote for another republican administration, after all the damage that has been done to us, is not a true American. I don't know what they could be, others may more aptly describe, but they cannot be true lovers of America. We do not have to speak to lowest of our characters in order to govern. We don't have to use fear, or hatred. It's not American. It's indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Right?

So if there are any who won't vote for Obama, should he become the nominee, well, the republicans are no patriots, and neither are you.

Heal our nation.

[PassingFair]

100. Welcome to DU, Maria!

I agree with you completely!

:yourock:

[roseBudd]

39. The majority of the electorate is barely paying attention, the majority of people who hang on lefty

blogs and forums like DU are Obama supporters. Have you seen any Obama supporters slapping themselves on the forehead in reaction to the constantly changing talking point from the Clinton campaign?

The reason they aren't having an effect is they are attempting to influence educated informed liberals and their arguments are illogical and or disingenuous.

[AZBlue]

57. I hear that rumor but I don't see it personally. I wonder if it's another Clinton meme.

Not sure yet though, so it's better to be safe than sorry.

[John Q. Citizen]

60. Every little thing scares you. Why not just admit you go through life terrified?

Yes, you are a constantly quaking mound of jello.

That much is completely obvious to me.

Everything anybody does any where always concerns you very much.

If it wasn't for bad luck, you wouldn't have no luck at all.

[woolldog]

68. Awww be nice.

we all have our moments...

[tavalon]

105. Wow. is this a convention of donkeys. or what?

Stop being a jackass.

[pnwmom]

107. The answer to that is NOT to deny that sexism and misogyny have been part

of this campaign -- they have. Not by Obama or Edwards, but by quite a number of their fervent supporters. Much of the Hillary-hate language used by the left is identical to that used by the Limbaugh crowd.

For example, do you think that HRC supporters on DU enjoyed being referred to with names like "Hillary's harpies"?

If you want to reach out to older women who supported HRC, acknowledge the excesses of some of these upporters and distance Obama himself from them.

Let these women feel that they have been HEARD and that their concerns are REAL and UNDERSTOOD.

I'm sure Obama will be smart enough to do so.

[K Gardner]

6. I share your paranoia. Good write-up, rec'd in both places.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

8. You might be right. On the bright side though:

If the stealth campaign is anything like her official one, it will be a disorganized mess and will probably backfire mightily.

[democrattotheend]

11. I don't think she or her campaign is behind any official "don't vote for Obama effort"

But I think she knows some of her supporters feel resentful and wants to encourage them to feel that way, to make it harder for them to vote for Obama.

[slinkerwink]

15. that's why we have to ask---do you want to be one of the greatest party leaders?

In being one of the greatest party leaders, you bow out gracefully, and you work your heart out for the nominee, and work to champion his policies through Congress.

[sandnsea]

12. I'll say I told ya so n/t

[democrattotheend]

13. What's your sense about Oregon?

Are Obama supporters getting complacent about sending their ballots because they think it's over? The fact that it is vote by mail worries me...I feel like younger people might not bother because they think it's over. And I am worried that women in Oregon might end up breaking for Hillary because they feel she was counted out prematurely.

[slinkerwink]

16. I think Obama's leading in women in Oregon

[sandnsea]

18. I am concerned about it

I haven't had as much activity in some of my email groups lately. I hope it's because everybody is busy getting ballots in, but I'm not sure. Look at Lane, Benton and Multnomah

http://www.sos.state.or.us/elections/may202008/cum.pdf

Yeah I think we need to make a serious phone call effort.

[democrattotheend]

20. Are those 3 counties Obama strongholds?

[GarbagemanLB]

47. I am an Oregonian. He will win the state.

[democrattotheend]

51. Big?

He needs to win pretty big to offset her win in Kentucky. I am nervous that two polls have shown him with a big lead but shown them even among people who have already returned their ballots...what are his supporters waiting for?

The fact that he is spending his whole weekend there means they are a little worried as well.

[CaptJasHook]

86. My wife and I both mailed in our Obama Ballots,nt

And all the people at my work place are sick of me reminding them to turn ballots in (I don't know who most of them support). I also canvased the neighborhood, reminding people. Mostly Obama supporters here in NE Portland, though a quite a few Hillary signs out there.

[Cha]

21. There's no time to needlessly trash hilary when

stating the facts about her take up so much time. Thanks for acknowledging that hilary once again said one thing and did another.

Fool me once Shame on you Fool me twice(or six)Shame on moi.

[BlooInBloo]

24. You can't get fooled again!

:rofl:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ux3DKxxFoM

[Cha]

34. Yes, that's what my comment was based on..

bushit made it infamous:o

[Window]

29. K/R.

You are absolutely correct on all points. We must remain vigilant.

:kick:

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[DemGa]

41. Well there certainly have been sexist attacks

"I understand that Senator Clinton, periodically when she's feeling down, launches attacks as a way of trying to boost her appeal" Barack Obama.

She's been berated in so many ways, it's absolutely disgusting - I'm quite sure that IF BO secures the nomination, he'll have lost a sizable portion of Democrats for his nasty smear campaign.

I used to go to "Daily Kos" but no more - it's nothing more than a cesspool of Hillary hate.

[GarbagemanLB]

42. and I'm sure you are totally fine with Hillary trying to smear Obama with Farrakhan, of all people??

Her implying Obama is 'elitist', also.


Nope! Poor Hillary hasn't done ANYTHING below-belt!


Get off your fucking high horse.

[BlooInBloo]

46. Oh come on. Everybody knows that any black person has to answer for ALL black people...

White folks have finally gotten around to requiring Obama to answer for O.J., or else Obama is sexist. LOL!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nina-burleigh/is-obama-man-enough-to-be_b_102224.html

That said, it would be nice to see some glimmer of feminism coming out of our presumptive black male candidate. I'd like to know what he thinks of OJ Simpson, for example. Would he, law professor, stand up in front of a black crowd and admit that he thinks OJ got away with murdering a white woman - unlike the countless black males who actually didn't murder the white woman, but were hanged anyway? In all cases, remember, the woman was actually dead.

[woolldog]

71. what a fucking racist article.

:mad:

[DemGa]

48. When you are constantly being smeared as dishonest

- when your character has been assailed relentlessly - I suppose the gloves come off just a bit.

[GarbagemanLB]

49. So you are okay with what she did? Seems like a double standard to me!

[DemGa]

53. That's part of the vetting process

Different than broadly maligning someone as calculating and dishonest.

[Zhade]

62. Uh, she wasn't smeared as dishonest. SHE LIED. Tuzla, NAFTA, to name only two examples.

What's more, you can't honestly deny she lied. The evidence proves you utterly, completely, foolishly wrong.

[DemGa]

65. By that standard Obama is a liar

It's easy to find statements of Obama's that may in fact be lies. What you have is zero proof of intent - and yet, it's been repeated ad nauseam as "fact."

What's funny is that Obama supporters parroted exactly the message coming from the BO campaign: Clinton is dishonest. Clearly a smear campaign.

[democrattotheend]

44. I don't think that's sexist

I think he meant down in the polls, down on her luck. Not down as in depressed. And even if he did, couldn't the same thing be said about a man, that he launches attacks when he's feeling down? Do men never "feel down"?

[DDQ]

110. The langauge he used was calculated

[Zhade]

61. When he wins, you'll support him. Oh, you say you won't now, but you'll grow up and do it.

Btw, "feeling down" isn't a sexist remark. You fail.

[sfaprog]

66. "Nasty smear campaign"?!?

Are we talking about the same Obama? The Obama who treated Clinton with kid gloves, especially in comparison to her vitriol? Are you saying that by him saying Hillary attacks, that it's a smear? That's no more a smear than saying she's wearing the color yellow. It's simply a fact, and one you're not going to change anybody's mind about here with your own non-sourced slander.

[StevieM]

43. Don't worry about Hillary or us Clinton supporters--we're out. There is a new coalition now and

we're not invited. Don't worry, I promise you, we have gotten the message loud and clear.

Steve

[GarbagemanLB]

45. Yeah, take your toys and go home because you didn't get your way! So mature. Speaks volumes about

some Hillary supporters.

[SoonerPride]

50. Go already. Don't let the door hit ya on your way out.

I'm not interested in your drama queen performance.

[Zachstar]

56. That is BS that you are not Invited. But if you point means you wont Vote for Obama come November...

Then bye!! Enjoy the last days of Roe vs Wade!

[StevieM]

59. Maybe I would consider voting for him if he started by asking for my vote instead of

acting like he is entitled to it. Obama could also win me over by being gracious towards Hillary and saying terrific things about her--but he won't. He has to make his base happy. So he'll be condescending and patronizing and say that we should offer her forgiveness and redemption. He can go to hell.

Steve

[democrattotheend]

63. Have you seen any of his recent speeches?

He has said nothing but nice things about her. Read his victory speech from North Carolina, and you will see that he was reaching out to her supporters.

Why don't you try listening to what he says between now and November to see if he does what you want, rather than assuming he won't and telling him to go to hell.

[CakeGrrl]

74. The *hell* he hasn't been gracious to her

He has NEVER maligned her character. He hasn't even "vetted" her, as he is completely entitled to do, by calling her on her resumé-padding Bosnia lie and her NAFTA switcheroo.

He didn't remind people of any of her past baggage. Her Farrakhan crack was another slimeball tactic on par with her "He isn't a Muslim...as far as I know" comment to cast him in an unfavorable guilt-by-association view.

You aren't listening to his speeches, methinks. For all the claims you've repeatedly made that Obama has "attacked" Hillary, I've not seen you cite a single example.

[StevieM]

77. The 60 Minutes implication-that-wasn't will go down in history as the ultimate example

of how dishonest the media/Obama portrayal of Hillary has been. She did absolutely nothing wrong there.

Steve

[woolldog]

78. Please leave then.

Nobody here cares who you vote for. Vote Republican in November. That'll really show us!

Buh bye. :hi:

[XtraProudDem]

84. Pay attention

"being gracious towards Hillary and saying terrific things about her"

That's exactly what he does.

Pay attention.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[burythehatchet]

70. then WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU STILL DOING HERE?

GET LOST LOSER

[Ken Burch]

98. Why does your candidate have to be the nominee for you to feel

welcome in the coalition?

Nobody has attacked HRC's constituencies. And especially nobody has attacked older working class women.

You're welcome here. It's just that your candidate's beaten and you refuse to accept it for some reason.

[dchill]

54. "This may sound paranoid,"

but it's not.

[LaStrega]

72. A refreshing voice of reason k&r (here & there) n/t

[windbreeze]

73. I am an older woman, and I don't want to vote for her...but...

I will if she gets the nomination...when it comes to her being wronged...she wasn't wronged....she is not naive, and this is NOT her first campaign...she knew what kind of a campaign she had to run...or did she? Perhaps someone led her to believe the nomination was automatically hers and every one of her fellow Democrats would just back off and just let her have it...maybe she got caught off guard?...I have a hard time believing what a poor job she's done campaigning for the most important job in her life...

As for all those Democratic signers who won't vote for Obama, IF he gets the nomination...well, then I guess they'll have to be happy with McCain...I gather the last 8 years haven't made much of an impression upon them...and shame on every damned one of them who intends to willingly try to muck up what should be a sure thing for Democrats this time around too..all 500,000 of them...IF you don't nominate who we want, then we won't vote for the Democratic nominee....gee...that sounds a little like..."either you're with me, or against me", doesn't it??....wb

[frog92969]

75. Don't worry

Between now and Nov. I guarantee they will hate McSame much more than Obama.

And maybe even look back and realize that he ran a clean, respectable campaign.

[barbtries]

83. well put.

i was leaning toward hillary until imo she surrendered her integrity and her campaign took up the lowest common denominator politics. it's been a couple months and i cannot summon the precise moment, though i think it was a culmination of moments. my vote was hers to lose, and she lost it. i like obama okay, but not really to the point of adoration. he does represent true change and so does clinton, but whoever it is they must win the election. that's all that matters, it's gotta be a democrat.

i see so much sniping and anger - hatred? - on this board, democrat to democrat. then i watch the candidates speak and invariably they sing each other's praises. the candidates do understand; they have their eyes on the prize. this is more true of obama than clinton (i didn't listen to the conference call but did read the OP). i honestly don't get why it has to be so hateful. we all agree, don't we, that it has to be a democrat come november?

it's just reality: hillary didn't win. she won't pull it out without some bullshit maneuvers that will subvert the will of the voters. i don't necessarily think she should accept that and drop out now, she has certainly earned the right to campaign to the end, but she should be campaigning from a position of recognizing reality and working for the common good instead of trying to turn water into wine.

my favorite bumper sticker so far this year: SOMEONE ELSE FOR PRESIDENT

mccain is not someone else he's the same fucking dimwit that has done everything possible wrong. it has to be a democrat, just has to be a democrat.

incidentally, i am a 52 year old woman. my boss is a 59 year old woman. we both voted for obama. another co-worker voted hillary: she's not yet 40. and her vote was not predicated on sex or race at all, she just has a better gut feeling about how clinton will govern than she does about obama. we discussed it at length and we're still friends. go figure.

[Politicalboi]

79. I often wonder

If she knows something is going to happen to Obama. I know that can be an insult or a stretch but power rules. I only think this because of the way the Clinton's have handled themselves. They are desperate and may have made promises to people who don't like to be disappointed. And the way Bill has been adopted by Poppy Bush is creepy. So far our government has been able to "Fool" us and the world about JFK, RFK, MLK, Paul Wellstone, 9/11. What's one more. I only say this because I never thought I would ever see the Clinton's act like this. It's truly shocking to me. Bush 1 and 2 and possibly Bill himself have a lot at stake if Obama gets into office. And we already know that in 93 Bill let Poppy Bush walk away. The Clinton's seem overly excessive about this instead of looking at the math and throwing in the towel.

[eridani]

80. She can't plan past Feb 5th, but she's planning for 2012?

I say the constant campaigning on Rethug frames is just one more example of shortsightedness. Pushing the "elitism" frame damages the hell out of ANY Dem candidacy, including hers in 2008 or 2012. She just can't think that far ahead--it's only an immediate tool at hand, well-honed by REPUKES over the last 30 years, so she picks it up and uses it against Obama.

[understandinglife]

85. Let her try .....

[The_Casual_Observer]

87. The kos people have run out of Hillary slams, so now it's down to inventing

a five year plan. What are they still pissed about? They won.

[apocalypsehow]

89. I'll stop when they stop. Not one post before. But the HRC boosters sense of entitlement is so

vast that they continue to "trash" the presumptive Democratic nominee non-stop. Hell, over in the Hillary forum some savant is posting a link to an ABC story about sore losers in our ranks actively working against Senator Obama in support of McCain. That mentality does not need to be "reached out" to - it needs to be fought.

Excellent Kos diary, BTW. :thumbsup:

[Qutzupalotl]

90. Oregon will be fine. Call Kentucky!!

Obama will take Oregon by double digits. A big loss in Kentucky could raise questions similar to the ones raised after West Virginia. He can take the big cities and make a decent showing in the rural areas, if he is properly introduced.

Have your info handy: not a muslim, born in the U.S., a brilliant mind with humble origins. Political operatives are afraid of him and spread lies. Arm yourself with the truth and don't cede an inch.

[Politicalboi]

94. I wonder if

Al Gore will be endorsing Obama on 5/21 to suck the air out of Hillary's balloons.

[Leo 9]

91. If the monster was easy to overcome the saga wouldn't be nearly so heroic.

The poem Beowulf is contained in the Nowell Codex. As noted in lines 106-114 and lines 1260-1267 of Beowulf, Grendel's mother and Grendel are described as descendants of the Biblical Cain. Beowulf leaves Geatland in order to find and destroy Grendel, who has been attacking Heorot. Barring his lineage, all motives for his attacks are left up to the reader. One cryptic scene, in which Grendel sits in the abandoned hall unable to approach the throne, hints that his motives may be greed or revenge. After a long battle, Beowulf mortally wounds Grendel by ripping his arm off. Grendel dies in his cave under the swamp. Beowulf later engages in a fierce battle with Grendel's mother, over whom he triumphs. Following her death, Beowulf finds Grendel's corpse and removes the head, keeping it as a trophy. Beowulf then returns to the surface and to his men at the "ninth hour" (l. 1600, "nōn", about 3pm).<1> He returns to Heorot, where he is given many gifts by an even more grateful Hroðgar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grendel

[DDQ]

109. You people are creepy

[Leo 9]

113. That's what all monster supporters say.

[merkins]

92. .

[rucky]

95. Naw...the call only shows the trouble we have in trusting her.

But we already knew that, so the call didn't really change much.

[downindixie]

96. Isn't this they way L.B.J

got to be President?

[sfaprog]

108. Yep. Exactly.

Obama wouldn't last a year if Hillary were the VP. The military industrial complex would have him killed.

Which is why he needs a VP who is even MORE progressive than he is. Kucinich would ensure Obama's safety, I think.

[happygoluckytoyou]

101. CONDITIONS WHERE HILLARY IS AHEAD...

IF you only count red-headed dwarf women from states starting with the letter N, except leave out New Mexico.

That's about it.... end of thread.... come on stupid-delegates... commit and end this

[lilyannerose]

102. Hell Hath No Fury

Of course, Clinton wants on this historical ticket. How else will history remember her, other than as a footnote, as being the wife of Bill Clinton and having to endure the humilitation of his affairs.

Further if there is truth in the allegations about this prayer group she belongs to and that they do in deed feel that God is using them as instruments of his will, think of the psychological damage this beating by Obama has given her.

God has rejected her, her husband is unfaithful to her and there you have it, the woman scorned with the fury of hell.