Hillary basks in the white vote; Obama receives 90% of the black vote...

[Maddy McCall]

but it's only racist if the latter observation is mentioned, even if completely objectively.

Hillary's supporters are somehow racist if they're white, middle- or working-class, and support her, according to some opinions I've read here.

What role does Obama's race play in the fact that 85-90% of black voters support him?

I wish we could have a frank discussion on the racial dynamics that are at play in this primary season...I just don't think that it's intellectually honest to hurl the "racist!" bomb at white Hillary supporters who support her, while completely ignoring the fact that a much larger majority of black voters support Barack.

(And to the usual suspects who'll accuse this post of being "race-baiting," you couldn't be more wrong. It requires a degree of maturity to discuss topics like this--is it possible any longer at DU to discuss this facet of this primary season without people torching the thread with insults and flames?)

[Blue_In_AK]

1. I'm not going to accuse you of race-baiting, Maddy....

I noticed that last night as well when they were breaking down the demographics on MSNBC. There was lots of talk about the working-class white vote and the less-educated white votes going to Hillary, and I kept waiting for something to be said about the black voters, but it never came, at least not while I was watching.

I'm not partial to either of these candidates, but that is something that was pretty noticeable to me, last night at least.

[Maddy McCall]

12. I don't know why it's a topic that's being avoided.

[democracy1st]

29. Does the Democratic party usually have problems getting these voters ?

[Texas Hill Country]

246. white working class? yes, they are also knowns as "Reagan Dems" because they often cross over.

[Labors of Hercules]

175. You are demonstrating a fundamental flaw of logic...

by assuming that voting FOR someone because of their race is the same as voting AGAINST them because of it.

If you want the appropriate analogies: Voting AGAINST Barack because he is Black would be similar to Voting AGAINST Hillary because she is a woman. Neither of these are the same as voting FOR Barack because he's black or voting FOR Hillary because she's a woman.

While I don't AGREE with voting for Hillary because she is a woman or Barack because he's black either, it is much better than voting AGAINST either of them for the same reasons.

See what I mean? :shrug:

[goclark]

206. This has been debated at DU many times

I am African American and I have had to "defend" African Americans ability to vote for who we please at least 10 times at DU.

I couldn't believe it would have to be explained at DU but I see some people have eyes wide shut.

I'll make this quick.

No one questioned why we supported Kerry over Sharpton.

No one questioned why we all didn't vote for Shirley Chisholm or Carol Mosley- Braun.

No one questioned why we stood in long lines on weary from work feet to vote for a thousand WHITE men and women.

Why do we vote for Obama? Because we damn well please!

We are voting for him in large numbers because he is inclusive not a divider.

He has not promised Black America one damn thing and we are not asking anything of him.

Fired Up and ready for the next President of the United States to walk into the White House in January and call it his home.

[Freedom Train]

217. When we're talking 90%, that's bullshit

Why do we vote for Obama? Because we damn well please!
We are voting for him in large numbers because he is inclusive not a divider.
He has not promised Black America one damn thing and we are not asking anything of him.

At least half of you are voting for him because he's black, period. White people going for Hillary have been around 50-60% all along, with 40-50% going for Obama. That's not far from an even split. And with the candidates as similar as they are, that's how one would expect the numbers to fall if the vote was made on policy, not skin color. But 90% blacks going for Obama?? What do you know that we don't? There's no logical explanation for it, except that with that percentage, it's a race-based vote.

It would seem to me that with 40-50% of the white vote going to Obama, whites (at least white Democrats) have moved past the ugly old practice of voting according to race, but blacks - going all out for the black candidate - have not.

[hokies4ever]

231. What about Hillary's race-hating campaign?

You been in a coma? Her campaign has repeatedly ridiculed and insulted the black community with little to no apology. That's why she polls in the single digits with black voters now. If it's a race-based vote, then why did Hillary have the majority of the black vote in polls from December?

[reflection]

237. If I were black

I imagine I would go for the black candidate also, all other things being equal. It's freaking identity politics. It's not bad, it's not new, and it's certainly not something that every black voter subscribes to. But for the ones that do, they've damn well earned it by voting for white Dems at a far high percentage than any other demographic. End of story.

[goclark]

240. No problem for you when we went all out for "the first

Black President" Bill Clinton was it?

African Americans don't take marching orders from you and perhaps it is arrogent people like you who have helped to make up the minds of 20% of African Americans to vote for Obama.

Thanks!:bounce:

By the way, I think votes should be color blind.

I don't tell you who to vote for and for sure you do not tell me who to vote for.

End of Discussion

[Texas Hill Country]

247. EXACTLY. To say otherwise in disingenous at best.

[knixphan]

220. ditto and ditto.

[roguevalley]

186. If Obama supposedly can't win without the white vote, then Hillary

can't win without the black vote. All I hear is that he can't get the white. That argument cuts both ways.

[Blue_In_AK]

205. That's, of course, true.

I would have liked a primary season where the subject of race hadn't come up at all, but it seemed like the media just really wanted to hammer on it and bring it to the forefront at every possible opportunity. I really couldn't care less whether Obama is black, white, green, or purple. I think it was unfair to paint Hillary's supporters as racists and rednecks, which seemed to be a theme I was picking up.

I don't know -- the whole demographics thing just bugs me.

[Kittycat]

2. You know - I was nice and took you off of ignore last night.

Clearly you have no interest in working to pull the party together, or understanding why the divide is there. Back you go to ignore, until I'm feeling generous again.

[Maddy McCall]

7. Like I said, maturity required.

Probably better that you let the grown-ups handle this discussion...obviously over your head.

[AZ Criminal JD]

182. Wow! An anonymous group of electrons on the internet is ignoring someone.

[cliffordu]

3. Blah de blah de blah blah blah. We got it, on to the next, please.

[rodeodance]

4. I listen to Black radio every so often. Caller ins are proud to say

they will vote for him cause he is black--"like myself".

[ShortnFiery]

14. WOW, Rodeodance ... just WOW.

Words can not describe how saddened I am that those who call themselves "democrats" hold such views. :(

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rodeodance]

164. it is the call-in views. You can be wowed if you want.

[ShortnFiery]

188. You really don't realize what's happening? How you are behaving? Do you? eom

[Coexist]

22. what is "Black radio"?

[cliffordu]

28. My question, too, what exactly IS black radio?

Good old Rodeo has made some marginal comments lately....I wonder.....

[Maddy McCall]

40. I live in the South. There are black radio stations here.

Is that isolated to the South? I find it funny that y'all are shocked about this.

My favorite personality on black radio is Bev Smith. Check her out if you've never heard of her. Indeed, she's my favorite radio personality, period, on my commute.

[Barrymores Ghost]

96. I didn't know that dark pigmentation showed up on my FM dial...

...guess I'll need to look more closely.

But probably not while I'm driving.

[CreekDog]

185. stations that white kids from the suburbs listen to

:think:

[cigsandcoffee]

52. They're like BET, only with radio.

That's my guess, anyway. We don't have any in my town. We have plenty of Hispanic radio stations, though.

[rodeodance]

162. Google it.

[TheFarseer]

167. Tom Joyner Show? n/t

[Forkboy]

108. Sad

truly sad.

[NYCGirl]

158. Well, all that black pride explains the presidencies of Shirley Chisolm,

Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Carol Moseley-Braun and the ever-popular Alan Keyes.

Where was the "all-powerful" black voting block then?


:eyes:

[libnnc]

181. NO one will answer that very simple question.

I've posed it a brazillion times.

*crickets*

[NYCGirl]

190. Well, thank you for trying.

:hi:

Looks like my post'll get the crickets, too.

[goclark]

209. Black radio does not define our race

It is telling that you are willing to put every Black in America in a basket.

We are well informed voters.

We don't march because someone tells us to march.

Obama has NEVER told us that we must vote for him.


I have posted elsewhere on this thread.

This is my last word on this because I need to get busy and donate to the candidate of my choice,
B A R A C K O B A M A !

Thanks for inspiring me

[knixphan]

221. ditto again.

[rodeodance]

225. I never said it did so stop making that ASSumption.

[dionysus]

244. you're missing your family reunion rodeo;

[MadBadger]

5. Those white voters in certain states never backed him. The black vote was originally Hillary's.

[Maddy McCall]

10. Prove it. Prove that blacks originally were going to back Hillary.

That makes no sense, and certainly can't be proved with objective facts.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. Racist myth debunked here:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/17/poll.blacks.democrats/index.html

[Maddy McCall]

43. October 2007?

You haven't been watching the exit polls, I guess. You know, the ones from the primary THIS year.

[MadBadger]

48. This race started Last February Maddy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

Yeah, they didn't change until after SC.

When Clinton started engaging in race-baiting tactics.

Guess what- black people don't vote for racist politicians. That's why they vote over-whelmingly democratic over republican.

Republicans keep whining about the same thing you whine about year after year. "Oh why oh why do blacks keep voting for the dem candidate? They must be stupid because the democrats have tricked them into thinking we're racist." Same shit, different day.

[MonkeyFunk]

176. No, more precisely

it was when the Obama camp ACCUSED the Clinton campaign of race-baiting tactics.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

107. You got 0wned. n/t

[SOS]

34. October 17, 2007: Black support helps Clinton extend lead

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Sen. Hillary Clinton's lead over Sen. Barack Obama, her chief rival for the Democratic presidential nomination, is growing among African-American voters who are registered Democrats, and particularly among black women, a poll said Wednesday.
Among black registered Democrats overall, Clinton had a 57 percent to 33 percent lead over Obama.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/17/poll.blacks.democrats/index.html

And why did JFK get 83% of the Catholic vote?

[Maddy McCall]

47. Ummm....how many primaries were held in 2007?

[SOS]

61. Iowa changed everything

Blacks initially supported Clinton. According to the posted poll, by a margin of 57-33.
When Obama won Iowa, everything changed. Blacks saw an AA candidate win in a state that is 95% white.
When it became clear that Obama really had a chance, the support switched.

[cyndensco]

143. That argument always bothered me - "Blacks initially supported Clinton"

Sure, SOME black voters supported hrc before Iowa - according to you, 57%. Being one of the 33% in that poll, I find it offensive when I hear "Blacks ...supported Clinton." SOME blacks supported clinton - even the MAJORITY of blacks supported clinton - is factual. No wonder our votes are taken for granted.

This might seem petty but after decades of like-stereotyping, it starts to get to me.

[SOS]

248. Sorry about that

I should have written "the majority of blacks" supported Clinton before Iowa.
Sometimes the typing is faster than the thinking.

[MadBadger]

45. CNN polll from 2007: Clinton leads black vote 57-33.

Let me guess, a poll isnt good enough for you.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/17/poll.blacks.democrats/index.html

[Maddy McCall]

50. And there were how many people in the race?

2007? That the best you can do?

It's a two-person race now. Obama draws 85-90% of the black vote in most states. Why?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. How many black people were in the race? One.

You were arguing that black people only support Obama because he's black.

That's been sufficiently debunked, so the intelligent thing to do is admit that you were wrong, and stop digging yourself into a hole.

[indimuse]

114. but see..

that was before all the media hype...or the obama majic bus and "goodies' ARRIVED!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

126. So you're arguing that black people are stupid or greedy.

That either Obama tricked them into supporting him, or bribed them.

Didn't think that through very carefully, did you?

[Barrymores Ghost]

128. Does she ever "think it through?" n/t

[Barrymores Ghost]

124. She's like fuckin' Seabiscuit with that asinine post last night...

...about Clinton's 14-point spread with only 35% of the vote counted. Just. Won't. Stop. Saying. Stupid. Shit.

She absorbs blows of reality like a trout-slap in the mouth, and keeps comin' forward, screaming "THAT ain't no fucking fish! THAT ain't no fucking fish!"

Absolutely teetering on the brink and staring into the abyss, that one.

[cyndensco]

148. I love your use of periods.

:hi:

[Barrymores Ghost]

151. I got's a WHOLE. BASKET. of. the. bastards.

.

[MadBadger]

55. Obama and Clinton were the only ones really getting any Black vote back then too

90 percent between the two. Adding undecides and maybe a few points for Edwards, and its clear those are the only two winning the black vote.

[SOS]

68. In a two person race

JFK vs. Nixon in 1960, JFK drew 83% of the Catholic vote. Why?

[anigbrowl]

82. Because black people would like to feel their interests are represented in the WH

by a candidate with first-hand experience of the problems black Americans face. A majority of them were behind Clinton until Obama demonstrated that he could appeal to Iowans as well. I have no problem with this. Do you?

[Doityourself]

163. Excellent response. Same reason many women vote for Hillary.

[knixphan]

222. thank you, anigbrowl

[lastliberalintexas]

236. Then they really should have supported Kucinich

I like Obama well enough, but he doesn't really address too many of the issues faced by far too many in the African American community. Arguing that just because he is black he can identify with other blacks is as stupid as saying that Paris Hilton and I have a great deal in common just because we're both white females. I think Obama does understand and empathize, but it's probably more from his community activism and aid projects in poorer neighborhoods. Not because he happens to be black.

[jenmito]

78. "Clinton tops Obama among African-Americans":

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1107/7065.html

[K Gardner]

80. Wow. I thought you were smarter than that. I was wrong. Do you only read

Hillary Hub? Not only is this provable, but anyone who paid ANY attention to the race thus far KNOWS THIS as FACT. Its been discussed ad nauseum throughout the race and extensively since last night on ALL media outlets.

Why do I even bother. You people just make shit up or ignore what you don't want to hear.

[jenmito]

85. YOUR words: "Prove it. Prove that blacks originally were going to back Hillary."

Many of us proved it.

[cyndensco]

161. Many of us didn't.

:hi:

[jenmito]

169. I'd say that all of us who replied, did.

:hi:

[dogday]

6. This is my question: If Obama has 90+% of the black vote

what the hell is left for Hillary but the white or hispanic/minority vote?

[okoboji]

110. but....

your assumption is that if Hillary is the nominee, she will not get the African American vote.

Do you really think that all of the African Americans are going to vote for McCain?

[dogday]

153. My assumption is what votes are left in the primary?

My statement was very clear.. Obama has 90+% of the black vote.. Therefore there is not much of the AA vote left over for Clinton.. Who else could vote for her but whites, hispanics and other minorities?

[David__77]

8. To what end?

What's the objective? I would argue that, yes, many Black people are excited by the possibility of the first Black president.

Can we also say that many whites are excited by the prospect of the "first white president?" No, that would be ridiculous. Perhaps, though, some are excited about making sure that we keep electing white presidents.

[grasswire]

87. a lot of women were excited about the first woman president

Now I don't think we will ever see that happen. Women got the vote fifty years after black men did.

[David__77]

101. It's not a competition.

The poster was asking about race. We could also discuss gender. I'm sure many women - all nationalities - voted for Clinton because they were excited at the thought of the first female president. Perhaps some of Obama's supporters are misogynist.

[ShortnFiery]

9. You and I both know that it didn't start out that way. Bubba Clinton EARNED the AA's distrust. eom

[Maddy McCall]

Over your head, obviously.

[ShortnFiery]

65. Wow, is that all you've got? It's time to pack it up then.

:shrug:

[Joe the Revelator]

11. Link me to Obama claiming that Hillary can't win because she doesn't pull the AA vote

He hasn't played that game, Hillary is distraught and has gone off the deep end.

[Maddy McCall]

19. Another poster who lacks the intellectual ability to discuss the topic of the thread.

[cali]

49. tsk, tsk. None of your comments in this thread are a testimonial to your maturity.

In fact, they're just the opposite. How amusing.

[Maddy McCall]

51. On to the next person...

no one wants to discuss the very narrowly defined issue in the OP. Typical.

[Joe the Revelator]

63. Oh ok, you don't actually want to discuss this.

Because if you did, you'd be able to respond to my post.

[babylonsister]

146. No, she's too busy being condescending to the peons, because

she thinks oh so highly of herself; we couldn't possibly understand. :eyes:

[LisaL]

75. Obama hasn't said it, but many Obamaites on DU said it.

[Upton]

13. You're not interested in a "discussion" you're interested in making excuses

for your candidate's lackluster showing last night.

[Maddy McCall]

21. Baammmph! No discussion here.

[sandnsea]

15. Why don't YOU care about the black vote???

Where are YOUR threads worried about whether Hillary could get the black vote back?

[Maddy McCall]

23. Strawman.

[Coexist]

16. how exactly does one "bask" in the white vote?

[Maddy McCall]

26. Read the front page of DU. Similar thread title there.

[Coexist]

30. I didn't ask about duplicate threads, I asked you how one "basks" in the white vote.

[AllentownJake]

17. It's over

The civil war is over.

[Maddy McCall]

27. Not on topic.

Moving on to find someone who can approach this topic.

[AllentownJake]

79. Maddy

It's over. Your attacking the democratic nominee right now and helping John McCain. I'm sorry I know how badly you wanted her to win and I feel for you...however it's done. I consider you one of the good ones. Don't draw this out longer.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. "basks in the white vote?"

[Maddy McCall]

31. Look at the front page of GDP...a similar thread title there.

Take it up with your fellow Obot if it offends you.

Next.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. I don't see any racist nonsense from Obama supporters.

Why don't you link it, if it offends thee.

[cottonseed]

20. What do you want to hear?

85% to 90% black support historically go to democrats. It appears that in this case, they don't consider her the best democrat.

[Maddy McCall]

32. Ok...explain futher. What is it about Obama that draws nearly the entire black vote to him.

A monolith, if you will.

Why monolithic black support for Obama if race isn't a factor?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. The fact that he's a better candidate.

Blacks almost always pick the better candidate.

Clinton over Bush.

Clinton over Dole.

Gore over Bush.

Kerry over Bush.

:shrug:

[cottonseed]

69. I'm not sure exactly.

It appeared that over the course of the campaign the Clintons used race to define the electorate and that was polarizing. The Clintons actually had the black vote before South Carolina, and after that their support collapsed (that might be something you should look into). Another thing, as it became apparent that they were losing the black vote, I never really saw much of an effort to repair that -- they stuck with and amplified the "blue collar whites" strategy. This served to further solidify the support for Obama.

[Egnever]

104. Are you really that stupid?

[Eric Condon]

214. Because the Clintons insulted them.

Everyone knows the Clintons have always had good relations with the African-American community, and as Obama said in a debate back in January, that goodwill is well-earned.

But when Bill made his inane comments in South Carolina, everything changed. A lot of Hillary supporters simply do not grasp the depth of how utterly offensive his comments were. By dismissing Obama's SC victory in light of Jesse Jackson's victories there, the message was clear: Black people aren't "smart enough" to vote on issues, and will gravitate to candidates for shallow reasons, such as the color of their skin. Not only is this patently insulting on its face, it also ignores the fact that there are major issues that are of great concern to the Black community, and Black voters DO care about issues and vote accordingly. Furthermore, it shows arrogance on the part of the Clinton campaign, the idea that because of those years of good relations with the Black community, Bill was entitled to make shockingly offensive comments and think he could get away with it, that no one would call him on it since he was, after all, the "first Black President."

I don't personally believe that the Clintons themselves are "racists." However, I think that they have shown themselves to be very manipulative and underhanded with regards to the issue of race, which reveals other, equally troubling questions about their character.

[NJSecularist]

25. I'd tried to have a frank discussion on the racial dynamics of this race here, Maddy.

It has failed. The Obamites would rather throw ad hominem grenades at me and others than have a intelligent discussion about the racial dynamics of this primary. Hell, jackson_dem was TSed from this forum for having an intelligent discussion about this. The Obamites are quickly to throw around the race card when we honestly evaluate the data and come to the conclusion about Obama's performance among white voters.

[Maddy McCall]

35. Yeah. Look above.

Only found one Obama supporter who even TRIES to discuss the topic. I'm hoping that person will continue the discussion without going off on the Tazmanian Devil snarl spit thing.

[Skidmore]

36. Maddy, I'll be glad when this primary is over and

some of the old familiar posters can have civil conversations again. I'll let it stand at I disagree with you and respectfully disagree. I don't want to belabor this point but I do understand fully why the most loyal block of voters in the Democratif Party have felt disrespected and are upset about it. Hillary and Bill were their own worst enemies on this issue and they do have responsibility for their words and the tone of the campaign. The AA Democratic voters were hers to lose, and she lost them. Big time.

[Maddy McCall]

56. No...I don't agree that it was "hers to lose."

Now...on to your next part, which gets to the meat of my OP...then do you think that it is the fact that Obama is black that is causing the black monolithic support that he enjoys?

I'm NOT trying to incite anger...I just want to hear some intellectually honest, informed opinions on this.

[Skidmore]

67. I knew a lot of black people who were firmly in the Clinton camp

until Bill shot off his mouth and the wink-wink language with racial overtones started, and then they reassessed. This is honestly what I observed on my end. People feel disrespected and the campaign tactics used were in conflict with the the stated position of the Dems on civl rights. People could not longer trust Hillary to represent them respectfully. I'm sorry, but you can't expect people to support you when you don't respect them or their contribution. Period.

[TragedyandHope]

37. They're all AMERICAN votes. They all count.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5868586">Democrats need 80%+ of black votes to win in the White House

In NC, 54% of Obama's votes were White.

It's time to move beyond this and realize everyone's vote counts.

[democracy1st]

39. this is a sad post

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. This is a revealing post.

It's like going to Hillaryis44

[knixphan]

223. it IS revealing.

[Maddy McCall]

59. Only if you only view race as a hostile topic instead of one that can be discussed...

objectively, intelligently, and without malice.

I approach this thread with such an attitude...I'd like to see it returned.

[democracy1st]

74. What I see in this post is that you would never vote for him because of race

[Barrymores Ghost]

133. What I see is someone who would deny citizens the right to vote for whom they choose...

...or, if they vote because they feel he is "one of them," would imply they must be racist.

By her logic, women who vote for Hillary -- because they want someone with the same genitalia they have -- are all misogynists.

[EffieBlack]

41. It's a fallacy to argue that race is driving Obama's high numbers in the black community

If blacks ALWAYS voted in overwhelming numbers for black candidates, your argument might have some merit. But the fact is that black voters have ALWAYS voted overwhelming for WHITE candidates, even when those candidates are running against black candidates. So, according to all evidence, black voters do not vote for candidates solely based on race - and any claim that they do indeed do so needs to be based upon something more than "the black voters voted for a black candidate, so they must have voted for him because he's black."

You have absolutely no evidence that black voters are voting for Obama in large numbers because he is black. And your and others' continued insistence that this is the case is not only without merit, given the blatant dearth of any evidence showing this and substantial evidence demonstrating otherwise, is little more than race-baiting.

It is YOU who is playing the race card with this consistent repetition of this lie.

[Maddy McCall]

60. Oh good god. There it is. The "race card" accusation.

Next.

[David Zephyr]

134. What other purpose other than playing a race card motivated your thread?

EffieBlack called it correctly.

[Barrymores Ghost]

136. Take the last sentence out of EffieBlack's post and refute the other points...

...and quit acting like such a child.

[David Zephyr]

131. The best post in this obnoxious thread. Thanks for keeping it real, EffieBlack!

:thumbsup:

[DearAbby]

44. Blacks are the new majority

since Obama has won the majority of Primaries
the majority of caucus'
the majority of states,
majority of votes.....:wow: who knew? Obama cant seem to get the white vote? Since he has won the contest....how in the hell did he do it without the white vote?

[Maddy McCall]

64. Get rid of the sarcasm, and I'd love to discuss this further.

Are you up to that challenge? Can you discuss this in a way that isn't ugly and sarcastic?

[DearAbby]

156. by your scenario I should vote Hillary

because I am white and female...problem is, Clinton at one time had the majority of the black vote...she squandered it/took it for granted. She had the lead, the massive war chest, and the entitlement label...and she squandered all of it. These were the mistakes of Clinton, and for her to own up too.

There was a reason the Black vote turned away from Clinton, that is hers to own.

[graycem]

46. How many years now exactly

have black voters voted for white males??? That's shoots a hole in your entire argument. Period.

[Maddy McCall]

66. Strawman. We're talking about this election.

[graycem]

71. Yeah, I know

because that's convenient for you. You go with that. It still happens to be TRUE. :)

[Straight Shooter]

70. How many years now have all voters voted for males, period?

Obama needs the white male vote to propel him to the White House. So does Hillary. With McCain, the majority of the white male vote is a given.

The sad fact is, the white male votes are still the controlling factor.

As for Maddy's post, BBC has some exit polling data and a quick bar graph of the Indiana/North Carolina results.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7387394.stm

"Exit polls show Barack Obama winning the support of nine out of 10 black voters in North Carolina and Indiana, while Hillary Clinton continued to do better among white voters and working-class voters."

[LisaM]

132. What about white females? Or Hispanic females?

I think it's really sad that Hillary's groundbreaking run is being so overshadowed. Racial politics matter. So do sexual politics. It's not a competition.

[susankh4]

53. We all chew tabacca too.

Doncha know?

Apparently Donna Brazile thinks so, anyways.

[onenote]

57. i think that the race-baiting claims have been largely overblown

and both sides, at least here on DU, have been guilty of it.

If you want a serious discussion, I will try to start one. First, the impression that some seem to have that the only reason that AA voters prefer Obama to HRC is that he's AA is simplistic in the extreme. AA voters don't always vote for AA candidates in lockstep. Its been proven time and again in local races and while there are undoubtedly many AA voters who identify with and are proud of and thus support Obama over HRC, the same has been true in previous elections -- Catholics supporting JFK, Jews supporting Jewish candidates, etc etc.

The problem with focusing on the black/white divide in this election is that it under plays the fact that it would not be possible for Obama to be accomplishing what he has accomplished if he only appealed to voters who were AA. Al Sharpton did very well (not sure if it was as well as Obama) with AA voters in 2004, but couldn't get out of single digits in states like Virginia, Maryland, Mississippi. He couldn't even win in Washington DC. The fact is that HRC is losing because she is failing to attract more than around 10-15 percent of the AA vote and because Obama is attracting a significant number of white voters. Other white candidates have been able to do this in the past.

Do some voters make race or religion or gender the primary factor in deciding who to support? Certainly. Some AA voters do. Some white voters do. Some Catholic voters do. Some Jewish voters do. Some men do. Some women do. Some Muslim voters do (do you think that Keith Ellison's victory is tainted because he probably got a huge share of the Muslim vote in his district?). WHere a woman gets a larger share of the female vote than of the male vote does that taint her election? DOes it mean that women supported her because of her gender? Or does it mean men opposed her because of her gender? Is there a magic threshold where getting a majority of support from those who share racial, religious, or gender identity with a candidate turns into racism? Are the first 60 percent of AAs that support Obama okay, but its the last 20-25 that are an issue? How do you distinguish one from the other?

Where I see "race baiting" is in posts that blindly fault HRC supporters as motivated by race. And I see it in posts that characterize Obama's success as the result of racism by by AAs.

[Maddy McCall]

73. I'm certainly not asserting that Obama doesn't have white support.

Considering that black voters only comprise 13% of the electorate, I'd be a fool to make such an assertion.

Clinton doesn't pull in 85-95% of the woman vote, so that's a null argument.

My question, again, is what characteristic of Obama's, precisely, is it that brings him 85-90% of the black vote.

It's a monolith. To deny such is to be dishonest.

(And I do truly appreciate your post...I hope we can discuss this...this is the most encouraging post I've seen on this thread, and I thank you for your opinion, which I do value, as well as for you taking the time to post with a well-thought-out, intelligent post.)

[onenote]

117. Its a complex matter

I suspect that identity politics is much stronger among AAs than women. Not all women agree that they have been the victims of discriminatory treatment (even though its obvious). THere is a sizable portion of the female population that, for whatever reason, actually do believe a woman's place is in the home, etc. THere is a sizable portion of the female population that doesn't support a woman's right to choose. There is a sizable portion of the female population, quite frankly, that doesn't identify themselves with all or even most other women.

On the other hand, AAs have a different perspective. They have faced a different type of discrimination than women (and I am not trying to downplay the very real discrimination faced by women).

There is probably no perfect way to explain what I'm trying to say, but let me try with an illustration from my own experience. I am a DC lawyer with 25 years experience working in private law firms. During that time, the firms I have worked in have hired and promoted to partner many women partners. As many as men? No. But at least in the first couple of years, the numbers of male and female associates were pretty close. In fact my firm today has seven associates, four are women. We have no AA associates. We have one AA partner. Over 30 years, I have only worked with two other AA partners. In terms of dealing with clients, I regularly deal with women in decision making roles. Presidents and CEOs? Rarely. But VP level and other management positions? Yes. Again, I rarely encounter AA men or women in these same positions. Not never, but disproportionately less.

I think for the AA population -- and as someone who isn't AA I know I'm being presumptuous to a degree -- what Obama stands for simply resonates across the AA population differently than how HRC resonates across the female population. But the fact that HRC is a woman is a source of great pride and identity politics for some women.

Finally, I'm Jewish, and there have been times when my support for a particular candidate -- my willingness to send money, for example -- has been driven by the fact that candidate was Jewish. Would I vote for a Jewish republican? Never have had the opportunity (leaving aside Joe L for the moment -- he was running on a Democratic ticket), but I doubt that I would. And I doubt that Alan Keyes or any number of black reubs would be getting 90 percent of the vote if they were running against a white Democrat.

So yes, AAs are voting as a block for Obama. But that doesn't make them racists. It may just mean that from their perspective, the benefits to the country from having an AA president are greater than the benefits of having HRC as president.

[galaxy21]

58. identity poltics is not racism

[onenote]

62. five words that actually sum up my much longer post above.

[LisaL]

72. It's only white people that can't identify with white candidates, because

if they do so, they are racist.

[Maddy McCall]

77. That certainly is something I've read at DU.

And thanks for posting...

This is what I'm trying to distinguish. What's the fine line between "identity politics" and racism-infused voting?

[galaxy21]

90. the difference is... a vote for Barack is a vote FOR him not AGAINST Hillary

wheras a lot of the whites voting for Hillary just don't want a black man. It's not about someone like them (thy've only had that for two hundred years) it's about disliking someone different.


And how can we call AA voters racist? They've happily voted for every white democrat in the past few elections. But the racists voting for Hillary would never ever vote for a black candidate.

[SOS]

135. An anecdote from 1988

I was living in Astoria, Queens (NY) in 1988.
Astoria is a Greek-American neighborhood.
When Dukakis got the nomination, the whole neighborhood erupted.
Fireworks, all night parties, cheering in the streets.
Why? Because Dukakis was Greek-American.
I'm sure Dukakis got 95% of the Greek-American vote. (Can't find a source on that)

All of our Presidents have been white, Protestant males with ancestry from the British Isles.
When a Catholic or a Greek or a woman or a black has a real chance at the Presidency, the people rally.
Especially when there has been bigotry or indifference directed at that group.
It feels like pretty basic, human nature kind of stuff here.

As another poster on this thread succinctly noted: Identity politics is not racism.

[Maddy McCall]

191. That's a very informative post.

Thanks for posting this.

I certainly understand what you're saying, and I appreciate you taking the time to distinguish between the two with your anecdote...

I wish I could have been there to experience your community's joy with Dukakis' nomination. :)

[onenote]

123. that's certainly not something I would ever say

But I also wouldn't say that a Catholic who identifies with a Catholic candidate, or a Muslim that identifies with a Muslim candidate or a Jew who identifies with a Jewish candidate are bigots.

[cyndensco]

178. "It's only white people who can't identify with white candidates ..are racist."

Boy, we must be living on different planets.

I doubt very seriously that white people are, or have ever been considered racist because of who they choose to support. Perhaps if you have been referred to as such, it is more about what you said about her opponent. It is similar to when Obama supporters are considered sexist, not because they are supporting him, but because of what they may have said about her.

As I see it, a white person can vote for a white person, no harm, no foul. 90% of black people voting for a black candidate, however, is considered by some to be a grand conspiracy.

[Maddy McCall]

76. Ok...let's go on with that...

I agree with you...but is it racial identity that's bringing the black vote to Obama?

I appreciate your post...let's move further down this line of thought.

[ShortnFiery]

81. "let's move further down this line of thought" - let's NOT and say we did?

This is lame. You really need to move on ... mercifully consider MOVING ON?

No good can come in deepening the racial divide. :shrug:

[Shakespeare]

97. Your brief post comes very close to accurately summarizing the situation. I'll add:

What no one ever elaborates on--and I KNOW most DUers here know this, even though they have whatever reasons they have for not saying so--is that there's an enormous difference between blacks voting for Obama and whites voting for not-Obama.

In the first case, it is, to a large extent, identity politics. It's also a choice based on positives. In the latter, white voters are voting for not-Obama because (and have explicitly stated) they will not vote for a black candidate. That is a choice based on a negative, and one that's a philosophical inverse of identity politics. It's also racist.

I suspect many posters who continue to start threads wondering with a golly-gee-whiz attitude why it's not okay to compare the two either don't get it (although I doubt that very much), or are being deliberately disingenuous.

[Emit]

83. It is unclear to me what you are asking

Are you asking whether the AA voters are voting for Obama due to racism against whites? Is that the point of your OP? Or, are you asking whether the AA voters are going for Obama just because he's AA?

[Maddy McCall]

84. TO THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE TRULY TRYING TO HAVE A...

mature discussion about this, THANK YOU...even if we don't agree, I so appreciate you responding to the OP honestly, and taking time to think out an argument.

I've got some work-related things to tend to. I'll be back online later tonight.

I'd really like to continue this discussion...it's one we need to have at DU. I certainly hope that maturity prevails in this thread, and that it's still open when I get back, because I'm enjoying discussing this with those of you who posted with substantial responses.

[ShortnFiery]

99. You would NOT wish to consider the PROFOUND change in AA voting after Bill Clinton's statements

during the SC primary.

This issue is very complex Maddy. Since my best friend (other than my beloved husband) is in an inter-racial marriage and my second best friend is an AA woman, I can tell you from my lilly white - perspective - by being blessed with two wonderful close friends who are AA ... you won't LIKE the mature discussion.

Many of us, myself included, harbor deep seated stereotypes. Those beliefs, if they are not "taken out" and considered on a regular basis, can lead to both predjudice and discrimination.

Yes, predjudice and discrimination goes both ways: White to Blacks and Blacks to Whites. However, the power structure has consistently favored White Supremacy.

I have a mix of feelings. But I'm going to tell you - from the heart - what Bill Clinton did in SC was "the southern strategy" and he will NOT EVER recover his Good Reputation with the majority of the average AA population. :shrug:

[Egnever]

106. its one you need to have

aparently you think it matters.

This race is over.

[ingac70]

86. Is Hillary getting 90% of the white vote?

Um... NO!

[Maddy McCall]

92. She certainly isn't, but that doesn't stop some Obama supporters from calling her...

supporters racists.

[ingac70]

95. Hillary is, can't say most of her supporters are. n/t

[democracy1st]

166. She ran a GOP campaign

what did you expect

[Jamastiene]

88. So true.

My aunt helped raise me and actually took a few shots, literally (yeah, we cling to our guns, lol) at the KKK personally one night when they tried to burn her mother's house down. She nicked one in the ass and he limps to this day. He verified it too. He's no longer racist, since someone had the audacity to stand up to him.

My aunt is a Hillary supporter as am I. She said anyone claiming she's racist for supporting Hillary can kiss her ass and then thank her for serving this country so they would have that right to be an obnoxious ass with no evidence whatsoever to back it up. I'm inclined to agree with the kiss my ass part. I wasn't in the military though, so I can't say the second part. I can sure as hell agree on the first part. I know who I am and I am no racist.

[Fresh_Start]

89. I don't think its unreasonable for a black to vote for a black

candidate or a hispanic to vote for a hispanic candidate or a white to vote for a white candidate or a female for a female candidate....other things being equal. That being said, I voted pragmatically because I didn't want to have a historic election, I wanted a winning election.

Obviously America votes for who they are comfortable with. There's almost a cultural distrust of intellectuals. And some of it, I think, is well earned.

George Bush "regular guy" would be great to share a beer with carried two elections over the "elitist" democratic candidates who were anything but regular guys. Of course, the fact that Bush was closer to the "silver spoon" than his opponent wasn't as important as the appearance of who was regular.

Likewise people are usually more sensitive to insults directed at groups they identify with then they are to insults to people whom they view as 'others'. And insults even unintentional insults are long remembered.

[barack the house]

91. This is a grim view of events Bill Clinton had that stat in the 90s. Obama shouldn't be discredited

for having the black vote that Bill Clinton once had they should be judged for losing the loyal base. As Randi Rhodes has said you cannot win the GE wihtout the base end of story. And overturning their vote is just the way to do it.

[Liberal Veteran]

93. I think it's disingenuous to compare the experiences of white and black voters as if the dynamics...

...were the same.

They aren't.

White people OWNED black people. Literally. I am sad to say that my family was one of those that held other human beings in bondage prior to the civil war.

After the civil war, black people as a entire population were treated as second class citizens and held down both economically, educationally, and socially.

You are a democrat and I shouldn't have to provide you with the litany of complaints the African-American community justifiably has even today.

So now, here comes this man who seems to appeal to a broad plurality of the nation that happens to be black and is viable as a candidate in the party that they have supported.

So we have two people who really aren't that far apart in their positions which means people are going to make their choices based on something bigger than their positions. In this case, it is the possibility that we can move this country past the appalling record on civil rights that it has had and it is just poor form to hold it against a community that has been treated so poorly for so long for standing behind a bright, educated, talented man with amazing rhetorical skills.

The black community in America is having the audacity to hope and given that there isn't really a lot of difference between the candidates positions is it shocking or surprising that they would throw their support behind a person who possibly could change the way America looks at race?

[LisaM]

94. It's being avoided regarding the women's vote too.

Women, as well as white voters, split their vote. For that matter, so did almost every demographic except African-American.

For the last few election cycles, the meme has been not to count on African-Americans voting en bloc. However, that vote has been extremely lopsided this time, hasn't it?

While this is disappointing on Edwards' and Clintons' behalfs, since up till now, both Edwards (97% NAACP rating) and both Clintons were pretty well liked in the black community, I do understand it.

As a woman, I have freely admitted that part of the appeal Hillary has for me is that she is a woman, and I'd like to see a woman president. There are a lot of issues that are important to me that I think would be better represented by a woman, and two of them are abortion rights and public schools. I think it's entirely understandable that the AA community is likewise voting on their terms and even though Obama is not my candidate, I would be lying if I didn't say that the thought of a black man winning the presidency and the joy that would presumably spread in the black community brings a lump to my throat. I'd like to think that all male voters would feel the same way at the joy women would feel if we finally got a woman in office.

The hardest part for me in all this is that I think some of the black community seems to actively resent Hillary running against a black man. I have no other explanation for some of the lies about her being a racist - unless someone is really playing us against each other, which is a distinct possibility.

[galaxy21]

100. even if you don't think the clinton's have played the race card

You don't understand how many have interpreted it that way?

guys like Ted Kennedy, and John Kerry saw it that way and quickly went to Obama. Are they 100% wrong?

[ShortnFiery]

111. Hello!?! The African American COMMUNITY "as a whole" saw Bill Clinton playing the southern strategy

in South Carolina. There's no mistaking it.

Shame on those of you HRC supporters who are SO DAMN BLIND that you will not see. :nuke:

Bill Clinton EARNED the distrust of the Average AA voter. That's a FACT! ;)

[Blue_In_AK]

113. As much as I like Ted Kennedy and John Kerry,

I don't think they're particular fans of the Clintons. They probably went to Obama for a myriad of reasons. If they could throw in a perception of racism on the part of the Clintons, too, it probably wouldn't hurt their feelings.

[LisaM]

119. I saw the memo that was circulated

and it started with how to call Bill's remarks about Obama's record on the IWR (the fairytale remarks) as racist.

I'm sorry, but if Bill Clinton is being painted as a racist, then we have a serious problem in this country, because his approval in the black community was always very high. Everyone can (and will) interpret things the way they want, but I think it's willful misinterpretation.

[ShortnFiery]

127. You really need to see the videos of Bubba's "Boss Hog" impersonation in SC.

:shrug:

[LisaM]

145. Are you telling me that you sincerely believe

that Bill and Hillary are racist?

I think that, and this is tricky and sensitive to say, because I am not black, and hesitate to speak for anyone else, that because African-Americans are very excited (and rightfully so) about a black candidate, that there needs to be some justification for abandoning someone who was pretty popular in the community before. Obviously, support needs to be earned, as do love and respect. But I think Bill and Hill had built up some good coin. I think there are probably some people in the black community who feel a little guilty about it, but really really want a black president. And more power to them for that. I understand entirely. I think it's contributed in some degree, though, to the persistent innuendo that the Clintons are racist and have been all along. I don't think that's true. You are welcome to (and obviously do) disagree. This is a very sensitive topic and all I can do is make observations about it because I am not black, and we can never really walk in someone else's shoes.

I do know that Hillary probably won't win and that any hopes I have for a woman president will be deferred for at least 8 years, if not forever. That is hard for me. It was exciting for me when she and Obama walked out together for their first debate together. It was a very moving moment. Unfortunately, for Hillary, his story was more compelling for a lot of people than hers.

[ShortnFiery]

187. Yes, racist is as racist does. Resorting to "the southern strategy" is ACTION, not mere prejudice.

Yes, I believe that both Hill and Bill have behaved RACIST. As such, whatever you wish to label them overall, I'd suggest that they are close to being Morally Bankrupt. :shrug:

[Maddy McCall]

197. You proved before the Texas primary that your views of the Clintons are warped to the point of being

kinda scary and sick.

[Mooney]

98. Don't worry, the first observation is racist too!

[virtualobserver]

103. In the state where I live, we had a protest rally concerning the Clinton Impeachment, 95% AA's..

at that rally.

When Bush and the Supreme Court stole the election in 2000, the extreme majority that protested in Congress were AA's

When a transformational leader rose up in America, who happened to be AA, AA's chose to support him, but only after seeing that he had mainstream appeal, because above all, AA's wanted a positive change in America.

I like the pattern. If all of America had the courage and good judgement of this type, the U.S would be in much better shape.

[cyndensco]

109. YOU said it is only racist when blacks voting for blacks is mentioned.

I AGREE. When a white person supports a white person, all is fine. Blacks, though, have some sort of ulterior motive when supporting black. It is the same for endorsements - Oprah is racist because she supported Obama; Elton John is a good american (oops).

I never for a minute supported HRC - I would be pulling for ANY of the original candidates still standing. That it is Obama, yeah, it makes it that much sweeter. I LOVE that it is he who is the front runner, it might be the first time I will actually vote FOR , rather than against, someone.

Just saw HRC explaining in West Virginia that she will be better able to win the GE because she receives the support of reagan repubs. and latinos. "AAs will come around". How marginalized we are. It's cool for us to rally behind the dem. candidate - hell, it is EXPECTED - but it is racist to support Barack Obama, even if he is the BEST candidate, the front runner, and a sure break from the last 20 years.

If your candidate would have a chance to win this nomination, I truly believe the democratic party would recognize it no longer has the black vote in its back pocket. Fortunately, nothing to worry about in 2008!

If as a white woman(?) you are considered racist for supporting her, well, sorry. You shouldn't be. At the same time, I wish the black vote could be respected also.

[billyoc]

112. You mean Hillary basks in the white over 65 vote.

Hillary/Matlock '08 :rofl:

Hmm... Better make that Hillary/Matlock 2008.

Don't want to confuse anybody.

[ShortnFiery]

116. She prides herself in hoodwinking those who are vulnerable ... IMO, not unlike "pyramid salesmen"

[billyoc]

140. Ah, yes, the "reverse mortgage" of candidacies.

:rofl:

[theboss]

115. You know who else received 90 percent of the black vote? John Kerry

The question should be, how do we get 20 to 25 percent of blacks to vote for Republicans?

[Blue_In_AK]

118. In the primaries? n/t

[ShortnFiery]

122. Hey Bubba Clinton, sportin' his posse leaning up against his Limo in SC -EARNED that 10% AA vote.

:evilgrin:

[theboss]

125. Why does it matter where it happened?

90 percent is 90 percent.

[Blue_In_AK]

155. I'm just curious...

Of course Kerry got the AA vote in the general. I mean, look who he was running against, for God's sake. I was just inquiring how the AA vote broke out in the primaries. It's just a simple question -- I have no dog in this hunt or whatever. I'm just curious.

[Maddy McCall]

199. Yeah, that's where I am....

and this topic is something we should explore, in a manner that isn't offensive to anyone involved.

Thanks for asking that question...I'm curious about it, too. :hi:

[EffieBlack]

200. 99% of whites and 80% of blacks voted for white candidates.

20% of black voters and 1% of white voters voted for black candidates

[Blue_In_AK]

203. I was actually looking for something a little more specific

as regards John Kerry in the PRIMARIES, since the original statement was that 90% of AAs voted for John Kerry. Did 90% vote for John Kerry in the primaries, or were the votes equally spread among the other (admittedly mostly white) candidates?

[EffieBlack]

207. The votes were spread out among the white candidates

Interestingly, the percentage of white voters voting for white candidates never changed, regardless how many white candidates were in the race. As white candidates dropped out, the white vote reallocated between the remaining white candudates - like musical chairs.

[galaxy21]

121. I remember reading how one elderly black man swore he wasn't voting for Obama and would go for hill

But when he got in the booth and saw his name...he had to vote for Obama. He was so proud to see his name there.

Maybe it isn't entirely fair on Hillary. But its so wonderful that black people have this oppertunity.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

120. This is along the same lines as "Why can't we have a "white history month" and "why can't we have a

white congressional caucus".

Black experiences and white experiences are not the same.

[roseBudd]

149. And the demographic that is shut out of power, no POTUS, 1 senator is not in a position to practice

discrimination

[quakerboy]

129. A few notes

At the start of polling Most AA were for Hillary. Most whites were supporting Hillary. Most everyone supported Hillary, she was the one we all "knew".

Personally, I think that what changed was the appearance that Obama was being attacked because he was multiracial, and many people did not want him to lose just based on that. Just as many people do not want Hillary to lose just based on her being female. Those, I think, are very different than refusing to vote for Obama because he is "black" or Hillary because she is "woman". That is, I believe, the difference.

I would also note that the total number of Votes gained by Obama due to race, at least in the few states where I examined the exit polls, were less in total number than the votes gained by Hillary due to race.

[shaniqua6392]

130. The only thing that matters is that we all, both black and white,

come together behind our nominee. I don't care if they are purple or green or black or white. I just want to beat McCain. I just want to take back the White House. I just want a bigger majority in the House and Senate. These racial and sexist tones were bound to come out in this primary. We are actually fighting over whether a woman or an African American should be the nominee. Who would have ever thought that would be the debate? Usually we are fighting over which squishy, rich white guy will win. I think it is awesome and I thank both Sen. Clinton and Sen. Obama for advancing the rights of women and minorities in America. They both are great Dems!

[hulka38]

137. Obama beat Keyes to become the junior senator from Illinois. They are both AA.

AA's didn't become hopelessly confused and disoriented by the prospect of not having their choice made for them based on the skin colors of the candidates as the premise of your OP suggests they might. On the contrary. Since you've separated them as a group and sought insight into their voting behavior, I'd say that they are the most thoughtful, reliable, loyal and least likely to be fooled voting block we have. For instance, they smelled Bush's working-man bullshit way before any other group did. They knew that the Iraq-nuke threat was bullshit while 75% of Americans (including most Hillary supporters) were shitting themselves when Bush spoke of mushroom clouds. I could go on and on. They knew Keyes was a phony and judged Obama to be genuine and capable. And finally, there's no question in my mind that AA's believe that Obama is the best candidate to be President, and they're right again. I think some of the rest of us white Dems aught to pay attention to what they're telling us more often.

[Barrymores Ghost]

141. SNAP.

Response-of-the-Thread. Thank you.

[madrchsod]

212. what is totally ignored in this election

was obama won every solid republican county in illinois except nine. he won counties that kerry lost in. before the "white guy" dropped out obama was up by 57 percent...he picked up a lot of the pissed off republicans

70% barack-27% keyes

[dcindian]

138. Woohoo can I get me some of your leet whitness and bask too!

Hillary bask Obama receives

LOL

[jenmito]

139. Why doesn't Hillary get over 90% of the female vote?

[Maddy McCall]

170. Because women aren't voting for her JUST because she's a woman.

Duh.

[jenmito]

173. So you're saying Black people are voting for Obama JUST because he's Black?

That's BULL. Like many people showed you, Hillary was supported by more Black people than Obama was. He had to EARN their support. Duh.

[Maddy McCall]

193. I'm not even going to attempt a conversation with you....

I don't talk to people who respond to my questions by putting words in my mouth.

If you'll read over this thread, you'll see that I LISTENED to a couple of Obama supporters who wished to talk about this topic.

I learned from them.

I wish you the same experience, but, unfortunately, I don't think you're open-minded enough to listen to people who don't share you narrow views.

Ciao.

[jenmito]

245. Why am I not surprised?! I've seen you give similar responses to MANY posters here. You can't

handle us.

Ciao. :rofl:

[Jersey Devil]

142. Yeah, she's "basking" in that bright, shiny white vote

while Obama simply "receives" the black vote which one cannot "bask" in, not bright and shiny enough. :sarcasm:

Of course in general elections Dem candidates have been "basking" in the white, working class votes too, haven't they? What was that? Reagan Democrats? You mean we haven't been getting their votes lately?

[ProSense]

144. This is exactly why Hillary's divisive campaign needs to end. "Hillary basks in the white vote" BS!

Hillary is using the white vote to race bait

Unlike Obama, who has struggled to win segments of the white voting population in some states (not those he won by 65% or more), Hillary at one time had a commanding lead over Obama among black voters.

November:

Clinton tops Obama among African-Americans

January:




She, and you, will have to accept that her tactics were/are responsible for driving black voters away.

[Barrymores Ghost]

147. ...and Maddy's tactics too, for that matter. n/t

[Heather MC]

150. Obama has never actively campaigned for one RACE, The Clintons have done that

That's what's racist.
in PA they spoke in code "blue collar voter"

in NC It was "Working Class" or "White Working Class"

but the worst was Bill Clinton only going to predominantly white counties in NC, Considering the Large population of Blacks in that state it was just so grossly racist it hurt.
I was one of the ones who fell for the Saxophone playing Arseno Hall guest spot, back in the 90's
The Clinton's Obvious ALL white vote campaign plan is what's racist, not the voters.

[rodeodance]

157. wrong. Obama has been Actively courting the working class.

[hulka38]

172. He should've borrowed someone's Ford F150 with a rifle proped out the window

and the tackle box in back. The issues he talks about and is determined to address will benefit the working class more than any group. But the unfortunate fact is that these Ivy league educated candidates have to enter a ridiculous competition to pretend to look, talk and act like working class people in order to get their vote.

[hulka38]

201. I was commenting on posts 150 and 157 both of whom mentioned "working class"

I will spell out for you what I was implying in my post and then tie it in with the race discussion neatly so there's no confusion. Hillary was driving around in pick up trucks and laying on the fake southern twang to pander for the vote that a refined looking black man couldn't possibly get because he doesn't look or talk like working class whites. Gotta hit people over the head with the point sometimes.

[merh]

179. the working class is not a race

you should try to follow the words, they mean something. :eyes:

[rodeodance]

227. never said it was. ........

Oh Nooz! The Obama’s are pandering to the uneducated Bubba’s & BHO gets stuck on REPEAT


Guess BHO did not quite have his new pander story memorized! I am sure it went better today.


…… Sitting on a picnic bench in a park on Pagoda Street, Indianapolis, in discussion with a group of 30 supporters, he told a story about the "modest" background of himself and his wife, Michelle.

And 10 minutes later, seemingly having forgotten, he told them it all again.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/01/barackobama.hillaryclinton


…….


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080501/pl_nm/usa_politics_obama_michelle_dc;_ylt=AlxkjSLtTnvb5QybY0ywS3fzj9AF


Obama's wife joins push to court working class

By Caren Bohan 1 hour, 54 minutes ago

[merh]

233. Hillary reaches out to the working class, you know that red pickemup truck

she borrowed from Fred Thompson.

The shooting of whiskey and chasing it with beer.

The recollection of her duck hunting days.

Campaigning to blocks of folks is campaigning, there is nothing racist or classist about it.

You need to follow the discussion and stop with your distortions, it just isn't becoming or honest.

You might want to start practicing some self-restraint now, soon your attacks on the dem nominee may get you in trouble.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

152. It's Obvious So Many Of Them Are Voting For Him Due To Race. But Can You Blame Them?

I mean when you see a number above 90% it's obvious that a large part of it is due to simple racial factors. That part's beyond obvious. But I can't really blame them either. When you think of how they've been shit on in history and what they've had to endure, of course they're gonna be excited when a phenom like Obama comes along and what his victory would mean for them. That's why it confuses me why some get so heated when the race factor is brought into question as to why he's getting those numbers. I don't see why there has to be such tension about that. Not only is it obvious that his race plays a big part in the large AA vote %, but it should also be fairly obvious as to why that makes sense. I see no problem with it really, and don't think it really deserves flames. It just is what it is, and I say good for them!

[hulka38]

159. And the fact of the matter is that many Americans including more white Dems than I had imagined

before this primary are just as fixated on race as blacks. Old folks, rural folks, the less educated, folks who wear overalls, Slingblade etc...

[libnnc]

165. But if that were the case, we'd have already had

President Shirley Chisholm, President Jesse Jackson, President Alan Keyes (R), President Al Sharpton, and President Carol Moseley Braun.

ALL except Keyes, ran as Democrats (and I'm leaving out Lenora Fulani who ran as an Independent in '88).

That argument is way too simple and it just doesn't make a lick of sense.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

194. The Simple Argument Is Yours. Are You Really Trying To Say That Obama Is No Better Or Talented Than

those on your list? That's insane.

Were you trying to turn my argument into one of "he could've been any black candidate and they'd vote in lockstep"? Cause that would be really really dumb.

[libnnc]

216. But isn't that exactly what you're arguing in this instance?

When people say "Obama's getting the black vote just because he's black 'cause all blacks vote for black candidates..." that isn't true at all and the past proves that. History proves your argument to be really, really dumb.

[Maddy McCall]

168. Exactly. EXACTLY.

THANK YOU.

THIS is what I wanted someone to be honest enough to say.

Hell no, I don't blame them. Not one bit. But I wish that DU's Obama supporters were honest and mature enough to not only admit this, but to discuss it without flying off the handle.

Thanks for this post.

[Barrymores Ghost]

174. Great. You and your comrade have proven your moral superiority to all of the Obamabots.

You've finally found an assenting opinion (in your own fold) -- so, congratulations. Really.

All hands together, everyone.

Now you and all of your "Vagina-or-Bust" Hillary acolytes can ride off into the sunset, secure in your smug misogynist-but-never-racist-mind-you maturity and honesty.

Bye now.

[merh]

210. It's that echo chamber

Sorta like Gannon at the Bush press briefings, tossing out softballs. :rofl:

[Barrymores Ghost]

177. Never mind that pesky little fact that they were supporting Hillary over Obama by nearly...

...a 60-30 margin. That is, until they got a reeeeal good look at the type of campaign she would run.

But don't concern yourself with that particular factoid. It's far better to advance Maddy's bizarre theory with a simple "Sure they do, but can ya BLAME them???"

Jeezus.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

196. ROFLMAO!!!!!

Yeah. You just go on thinkin that they turned from 60-30 to 92-8 based solely on her campaign. :rofl:

Oh my how silly. I'm laughin my ass off at the concept that some actually truly believe that to be why. Holy cow what some will convince themselves of! LOL

[Barrymores Ghost]

219. Then you tell ME what the tide-turner was?

Oh...they finally figured out that she wasn't black?

OMG!!!!

[Barrymores Ghost]

241. Oh, so Obama got blacker as time rolled along?

And THAT's when the tide turned? Please, take a breath from your hysterical laughing and learn us poor fools a little.

[Hippo_Tron]

154. I don't think it's racism I think she gets 6 out of 10 white votes because her last name is Clinton

She'd get 6 out of 10 black votes from her last name too if she wasn't running against a black guy.

[ecdab]

160. Actually - Hillary only basks in the Senior White vote. Obama won

60% of ALL people under 64 in NC and 52% in IN

[Maddy McCall]

171. Ummm.....the title of this thread....

is a rip of another thread, that condemns Hillary for "wrapping herself in the white vote."

[Thickasabrick]

180. Maddy - I honestly want to see us (as a country) stop looking at

how many whites or how many blacks did what. It propels the divisions along I think - someone needs to say stop.

[Maddy McCall]

195. Much of my undergrad work was on race in the postwar south...

so this topic IS of interest to me.

I can speak like an academician to it, but I like to just hear what people are thinking.

I've learned from people tonight...some really nice Obama supporters on this thread talked about the topic...they opened up...and I learned from them.

[catgirl]

183. Didn't you hear? Rush isn't supporting Hillary anymore

of course it's reverse psychology, but I thought you might've been fooled.

[sampsonblk]

184. If I thought you were serious, I'd discuss it with you. But I think not.-nt

[CreekDog]

189. testing the boundaries at DU?

good luck with that.

[Maddy McCall]

192. No. And I'm actually learning from a few Obama supporters....

if you'd drop your guard long enough to listen, you might learn something from a few Hillary supporters here.

:)

[SaveAmerica]

198. why don't you step into a big group of them and ask them? Hmm?

You'll be surprised when you do, amazed to find a large group of people who have been loyal to the Clintons for many, many years. They viewed the Clintons as a couple who were very good to the black community. Hillary Clinton entered the race on January 20, 2007 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6929745 and at that time she had the support of many in the African American community. Hillary and Bill Clinton themselves are responsible for the loss of some of those who supported her from the beginning. Maybe for some it was the South Carolina mess, maybe for some it was her ambiguity about whether Obama is a Muslim or not (or even that she didn't mention that being a Muslim isn't really an issue), maybe it was the way she treated a fellow Democrat - using tricks the GOP used on Bill and Hillary for many years, or maybe they saw something that we'll never understand because we're not black and haven't lived the life of a black person (unless you're black then I apologize for making that assumption).

Jump right in there and ask them and you'll hear what I heard yesterday when I was canvassing: "many of us were going to vote for Hillary and then our eyes were opened wide by her actions" (young 20 something girl with the hand motion of opening her fingers wide while she widens her eyes), "my entire family was going to vote for her until we saw what happened in South Carolina" (older man who told me that if black people only voted black who would they have voted for in the past? Think about it Maddy, you'll see it makes sense).

I will repeat the most important thing here because I've said it to you before when you've tried this mess in the past. You always ignore it when I write it because you know it's true:

HILLARY AND BILL CLINTON THEMSELVES ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE LOSS OF SOME OF THOSE AFRICAN AMERICANS WHO SUPPORTED HER FROM THE BEGINNING. We need to go forward and heal this mess in our country and you are not helping. This kind of thread does not help.

Find some place in your heart for peace on this issue and let us go forward.

[anonymous171]

202. Hillary won WA and VT then right?

[Lord Helmet]

204. that's some divisive politics you got going on there

[wileedog]

208. Here's the frank discussion point

Hillary can't prove that the lower income white vote that is currently keeping her afloat in this race at all will automatically be McCain voters come November against Obama. She can't say with definitive proof that Obama will lose economically creamed factory workers in MI, PA, OH to a man who admits he doesn't know shit about the economy.

Heck, she can't even prove that the 'shot and a beer while we duck hunt' crowd won't abandon a woman completely for an old white war hero when it comes to the GE.

It is a divisive and stupid argument and you can bet she and her supporters would be using anything else the could find if they could. But there is nothing else.

[Jed Dilligan]

211. Maybe 90% of whites would vote for him

if there weren't so many who were open or secret racists?

[zulchzulu]

213. Obama basks in voter profiles MORE than Hillary Clinton

Here's the list where Obama won and the white (and non-Latino) percentages:

Iowa                              92.60%
South Carolina	            66.10%
Alabama	                    70.30%
Alaska	                    67.60%
Colorado	                    74.50%
Connecticut	            77.50%
Delaware	                    72.50%
Georgia	                    62.60%
Idaho	                    88.00%
Illinois	                    67.80%
Kansas	                   83.10%
Minnesota	                   88.20%
Missouri	                   83.80%
North Dakota	          91.70%
North Carolina	          70.20%
Utah	                          85.30%
Louisiana	                  62.50%
Nebraska	                 87.30%
Washington	         78.90%
Maine	                 96.50%
Washington	         78.90%
D.C.	                        27.80%
Maryland	                62.10%
Virginia	                70.20%
Hawaii	                22.90%
Wisconsin	                87.30%
Vermont	                96.20%
U.S. Virgin Islands	--
Democrats Abroad	==
Wyoming	                 88.90%
Mississippi	        60.70%

http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/spreadsheet/1002654

[lumberjack_jeff]

215. It's intellectually dishonest... but more to the point it's counterproductive.

One of the main challenges that identity politics has created is that those belonging to the identity group (whom they perceive to be oppressed or victimized) assume that:
a) the "oppressors" deserve any abuse which springs to mind, and
b) are irrelevant to the goals of the oppressed group

If they're any good at math, sometimes they try to rationalize to themselves that they can continue to do a) without jeopardizing their goals because "only an idiot forms a negative opinion on a candidate based on the behavior of the supporters". It is a rationalization, and an inherently harmful one.

[Beacool]

218. Yep, but no siree, it's not about race...........

It's only racist if whites support Hillary, but it's not about race when 91% of blacks vote for Obama in NC. Why is his win in NC supposed to be such a momentous occasion? Who the hell expected Hillary to win in a state where 1/3 of Democrats are AA???

The media makes it sound like it was such a revealing moment, as if he hadn't won by greater margins in SC, GA and MS. If anything, Hillary did better than expected as she lost by a lesser margin than in the other aforementioned southern states.

[knixphan]

224. I'm only one black person...

I can only speak for my one vote. The rest of the AA community will have to give their own answer for why they support Barack.

Among other criteria, devotion to the prosperity of the middle class, and improving our international relations are big deals for me.

That's why I was a firm Kucinich supporter.

Dennis is not black. As far as I know...

I chose Barack AFTER Dennis.

I chose Barack after THINKING about the issues that mean something to me, and who was best suited to be my post-Dennis choice.

I think. Really.

[Lord Helmet]

226. we can always count on you for more division, great job!

[eridani]

228. How do the votes of people who will vote for McCain in the fall help her? n/t

[CakeGrrl]

229. I'm going to conclude that

the purpose of the original post is really about finding a scapegoat for Hillary's downfall, which is kind of a moot issue, isn't it? I think the objective of the OP was to find someone to corroborate the thought that "the blacks stuck together and brought her down"...with the bonus benefit of satisfying yourself that his win isn't somehow "real". I call it like I read it.

It was proved several times in this thread that there have been a number of black candidates who did not receive the black vote in the proportions that Barack Obama has. This would indicate that as a bloc, AA voters do not herd toward a fellow AA candidate like a flock of sheep, but rather consider the issues at stake.

The observation was made that the AA voting bloc has, over the course of time, sussed out the more dubious characters ahead of other demographics. I won't bother to go into the implications for this primary.

All these arguments were shooed away one by one until someone finally asserted that the AA voters simply decided to vote for a fellow AA "just because", which was then met with enthusiastic agreement by the OP.

I'm not sure what higher purpose this thread serves other than to isolate a demographic outside the OP's own and examine it under a microscope for...what reason? Not sure, but isolation in and of itself isn't conducive to the spirit of unity.

[merh]

234. I think this post explains it

EffieBlack
7. So let's not run the black guy just in case?

Let's not hire the black employee, just in case some of our customers don't like black people?

Let's not sell our house to the black family, just in case some of our neighbors don't like black people?

Let's not retain the black lawyer, just in case some of the judges don't like black people?

Let's not invite my black friend to the party, just in case some of my friends don't like black people?

Racism-by-proxy should not be a Democratic Party ideal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5880656&mesg_id=5880942

[hokies4ever]

230. Quit crying and stick a pacifier in it

:cry: Your mom signed the DU permission slip, now walk it off. :rofl:

[yourguide]

232. Maddy, I dont trust any "mature" discussion about race with you.

Considering you were the author of a post entitled: If it's brown, flush it down.

[Sparkly]

235. I find the discussion on this thread really disturbing.

But I've seen it before. There is a LOT of discomfort about Obama's race.

In my view, if people vote for Obama because of his race, or for Clinton because of her gender, they shouldn't be criticized. I've said that for a long time. These aren't insignificant factors (contrary to the view that if we just pretend everything is equal and treat everybody equally, the significance of race/racism and gender/sexism will disappear). But people aren't ready to talk about it. To talk about it is to recognize it, and for whatever reasons, people are very uncomfortable with that.

Are people who weigh Clinton's gender or Obama's race heavily in making the decision to vote for them automatically sexist/racist? I don't think so. I think they're often recognizing the sexism/racism we've grown so accustomed to, including in our constant acceptance of white male presidents.

In other words, it is OKAY for people to vote for Obama because of his race, or to weigh it in his favor to whatever degree they choose, as far as I'm concerned. Freaking out at the suggestion it's even happening, as though his strong support among black voters is coincidental, is oddly defensive, seems to me. And it makes me think we've still got a long way to go.

[mmonk]

238. Hillary ran a republicanesque campaign

concerning Obama. To deny it is to have one's head in the sand. She had black support in higher numbers until her campaign began some of its undemocratic approaches in SC.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

239. so Obama wins 13% of the total US population

[NashVegas]

242. Hillary "Basks" in the White Vote?

Interesting choice of words, Maddy.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

243. I don't doubt it's a factor, but it's not the only reason.

Like others have said, if black voters voted for black candidates with these kinds of numbers, Sharpton, Jackson, etc. would have performed significantly better.

Obama is the most viable black candidate in history -- he is appealing to many whites and non-blacks despite his race, something that niche candidates like Sharpton lacked. I think Obama's broad demographic support pushed many black voters to him because he is presented in a non-threatening, non-stereotypical package for white society's consumption. Despite the levels of support for a black candidate among black voters, how that candidate is accepted (or not accepted) by white society is a major factor.

Obama also has to perform a highwire act when it comes to race. He obviously can't hide it, but at the same time, he can't trot it out as a campaign ploy, i.e., "I'm black, so vote for me." Ironically, Hillary is given more leeway in terms of her mentioning her gender -- notice the "I'm your girl" self-references, for example. Obama is clearly black, and Hillary is clearly a woman, yet Obama is more constrained in expressing his racial identity than Hillary is in expressing her gender.

With regards to the cries of racism towards Hillary supporters, I have always been against blind, unfounded accusations of racism, sexism, etc. That being said, you can't deny the many articles written regarding *some* white voters in PA, Indiana, etc., who claimed they wouldn't vote for Obama because of his race. In fact, an article regarding Kentucky, I believe, had a quote from a white voter blatantly expressing that thought. It was posted here recently, so maybe somebody can link to it.

That's my take. If it seems rambling and disjointed, just remember that it's too early in the morning for me.

;)