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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 03:19 AM
Original message
Sadly, Over the Hill ...
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 03:40 AM by NanceGreggs
At the time Hillary Clinton threw her hat in the ring, I don’t think my admiration for her could have been surpassed by even her most ardent admirer.

I had watched this incredible woman become the epitome of the 21st Century female, years ahead of her time. Her self-defined role as a partner in her husband’s presidency was not only a pronouncement, but an achievement. At the same time, she maintained her independence and ability to promote her own visions for positive change in our nation – a mission reflective of the role that women would, following in her footsteps, fulfill in the future political arena.

During the RW-generated “scandals” that ultimately led to outrageous accusations against herself, and impeachment proceedings against her husband, Hillary stood firm in her commitment to her principles and her marriage – and did so with straightforwardness and candor, not to mention incredible grace and style.

It was with that strength of character and sense of purpose that Hillary Clinton announced her candidacy for the presidency, a path she knew would open her entire life up to microscopic scrutiny, and make her the target of every scurrilous accusation the GOP smear machine could conjure up and catapult in her direction.

Although an Obama supporter from the beginning, I never lost any sleep over the idea that Hillary might emerge as the nominee. She was not my personal choice, but she was still an excellent choice – for all of the reasons above, and then some – and I never ignored an opportunity to say so.

That was then – and, unfortunately, this is now. And the now that we find ourselves in, as a party, is less than pretty.

When I heard Hillary’s comment that she and John McCain brought the necessary experience and expertise to the table, while her fellow Democrat, Barack Obama, was to be dismissed as nothing more than a speech, I was truly astounded. This was not the Hillary of sense and sensibility, but the Hillary of pride and prejudice, a woman who would stop at nothing to achieve her goal, with an immediate and vicious bias against anyone who had the audacity to try and stand in her way.

This code of conduct has not subsided, but instead has persisted and become more blatantly apparent with every passing day. It is the same “you’re with us or against us” mentality that has divided a nation for more than seven years; it is the same rhetoric that screams of entitlement and arrogance, rather than a sense of accepting the will of the people who have spoken, and continue to speak, about something more important than the ego of one politician with their eye focused on nothing else but the prize.

I will not say that I can imagine the heartbreak caused by giving up a life-long dream – simply because I cannot imagine it. I cannot imagine the despair, the depression, the profound disappointment – along with the attendant hope that maybe, just maybe, things will take an unexpected, nay miraculous turn, and I will emerge triumphant in the end.

But there does come a time when one should know instinctively that they have gone too far, that they have substituted self-interest for the interests of others, that they have replaced a passionate sense of vision with ambition that is not only blind, but destructive in the extreme.

There comes a time when you have to weigh your own personal goals against those of a party, as well as a nation, and understand that the dreams of one must make way for the hopes of the many.

There comes a time when your own sense of self-worth is no longer measurable by your willingness to fight, but by your ability to accept loss with grace and dignity.

Most importantly, there comes a time when fortitude becomes mere stubborness, when the desire to win fairly and honorably transforms itself into a desire to win at any cost, a time when every positive thing you have ever achieved is at risk of being forever overshadowed by the depths you are willing to go to in order to run the last mile of a race you have already lost.

I am truly heartsick that the Hillary Clinton I admired for years is gone – or, more sadly, perhaps never existed other than in my own imagination.

Being a woman of a certain age, I am aware that politics is a dirty game, and probably won’t change any time soon.

But there are certain rules of engagement, and Hillary’s campaign, along with the candidate herself, have chosen to bend them, belittle them, besmirch them – or simply ignore them.

There was a definite and all-too-obvious line to be crossed here, and Hillary Clinton has crossed it. Unfortunately for Hillary, it wasn’t the finish line.

This is just one woman’s opinion – but I wanted to share the fact that a lack of support for Hillary, on my part and on the part of others, is not, as some would spin it, about sexism or racism, the victim, the soundbyte, the Reverend tape-loop, the pinned-by-sniper-fire story, the he said/she said, the "but he/she did it, too" gotcha moment.

It is instead about rules being pledged to and then reneged on when convenient. It is about promises being made and then broken when all else fails. It is about decrying the disenfranchisment of voters in states you suddenly need while, in the same breath, advocating the idea that superdelegates should overturn the will of all voters if things turn out not to your liking.

In short, it’s about integrity – which, somewhere along the way, Hillary Clinton lost, misplaced, forgot, or simply discarded as an expendable obstacle in her failed race to what is proving to be the bitter side of nowhere.




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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. I start from a different place, Nance
I was never a huge admirer of either Clinton. I never saw the integrity in Hillary that you did. I remember her behavior around the Healthcare project, and how many putative allies she estranged with her high handed behavior. I recall her indignation over Flowers and others and how it couldn't possibly be true when she knew damned well it was. I realize that there wasn't much else she could do, but she always went straight for the other woman's jugular with all the power she commanded instead of admitting that her husband bore any responsibility. It always seemed to be about damage control more than anything else. I have some sympathy for Hillary Clinton- in fact quite a bit of it, and I recognize her intelligence and capability- but I have never admired her.
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. that's a little closer to my feelings
That and I feel like she has tried to paint herself as a hard-fighting independent feminist while riding her husband's coattails. She screwed up big time on the health care effort in the 1990s and set us back on that. She was given the Senate seat in NY, as a stepping stone for the presidency, and I don't think that was fair to other NY politicians.

At the beginning of the campaign she was running mainly on her Senate work and proposals for the future. I didn't like seeing her sucking money and attention away from more qualified candidates who I thought she should have been supporting instead (Biden, Dodd, Richardson). At some point around Iowa she brought in Bill big-time and started pushing the first-lady-as-face-of-foreign-policy thing. I guess Bill Richardson, Madeleine Albright, etc. were just bystanders. And the idea of Bill in the white house again is NOT a selling point to me.

It's gone downhill from there. What bothered me about the NH crying moment was not whether or not she was crying. It was what she said about it being very personal, i.e., this is about ME ME ME. And that without HER in office we would fall "backward". And it's continued to go downhill.

I held off on moving on from Biden for a long time, and I still want him to run things. But that's not going to happen and I'm a realist at the core. The more I get to know Obama, the more I like him. The more I hear from Hillary and Bill the more upset I get.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I have the greatest admiration for Joe Biden
and had he not voted for the IWR I would have supported him in the primary. Next to Leahy and Sanders (my own Senators) he's one in that body I most admire. Like Leahy, he hasn't used his long Senate career to line his own pockets.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
47. Seconded.
"Like Leahy, he hasn't used his long Senate career to line his own pockets."
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #47
54. yep
good guys - wonder if that will influence Biden as a superdelegate
:hi:
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Skywalker Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #47
108. Make it three!
"Like Leahy, he hasn't used his long Senate career to line his own pockets."
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
53. yeah, that's actually the origin of my user name
I started using it on a different comments board when people were dismissing Biden in Iowa because he was supposedly rich off the credit card industry in Delaware, when that's not the case at all.

It's easy for people to be critical of long-term politicians, want term limits and/or vote them out, etc. But when I hear Biden leading foreign relations hearings, or Leahy leading Judiciary, I just think, how could one of the freshmen senators do that? Maybe Obama can go back to the Senate in 8 years? ;)

I, too, wish Joe had voted against IWR. He tried to amend the resolution. He made a mistake trusting Colin Powell. At least he very quickly questioned the plan and became a critic, and openly admitted his mistake, and uses the word "mistake" - something Hillary could never do.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
172. Well, that and the fuck-the-poor bankruptcy bill, and endorsing a PNAC statement.
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 07:11 PM by Zhade
But I'd take him over a proven liar like clinton any day!

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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #172
192. Self delete....wrong place...though I am with you on the Bankrupsy
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 09:25 PM by ooglymoogly
matter. I did watch the last vote on that after first she had voted for, wait around until the bill had safely passed to be one of the last votes, when her vote no longer had the slightest meaning.
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #172
198. I think the bankruptcy bill was under the GOP control
and Biden agreed to vote for it in order to get some amendments to it, but I'm not 100% sure of that. I also thought his vote didn't make a difference (it was going to pass anyway) but don't have the data for that at my fingertips either.

I don't think Biden is a saint, and my personal politics views would match better with Kucinich, but there's a pretty small # of Biden complaints for 30 years of votes. I wanted someone smart and honest who respects the constitution and knows foreign policy and has a concrete plan to get us out of Iraq.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #198
203. I'm still angry about the "can't write off catastrophic medical debt" thing.
Maybe I'm being unfair to him, but at the time I was livid.

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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #203
223. you're probably right
I don't know the details, and it's certainly something Biden supporters REALLY wish he hadn't voted for.

One more reason we need to fix the health care system in this country :(
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
115. She's a narcissist
So is Bill. That's why it's all about ME ME ME.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #115
150. She HAD to be the president in order to convince herself that it was 'all worth it'
Staying with Bubba in Arkansas, standing by her man...
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #150
180. Yes I suspect that's why she stayed with him
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #180
187. No doubt about it
She could still be elected president as a woman who stood by her cheating husband. But as a divorcee who ditched her cheating husband, she would have no chance at all, and she knew that.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
34. Those are good points. I'd forgotten some of that. nt
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Mme. Defarge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
69. In my case,
at the beginning of this race Hillary was my least favorite of all of the candidates for the reasons you have given, plus her Iraq war vote, then her Kyle-Lieberman vote.

But, there was a moment toward the end of the debate that occurred right before the New Hampshire primary, when I felt so very proud of all of the Democratic candidates on stage that I believed I could have voted for any one of them -- including Hillary. Since that moment, everything she has done during her campaign (including appropriating John Edwards' "this is personal" theme during her teary interview where she expressed frustration and exasperation over her sense that voters didn't realize how much they really needed her) has not only reinforced my original negative attitude about her, but has instilled in me a sense of alarm -- EVEN FEAR -- that someone so power-mad could somehow end up as our next president.

Perhaps the good news is that we are seeing all of this now -- before the nomination. Still, I admit that I am flabbergasted by the brazen, crude, overtly destructive turn of her campaign.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 03:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yep. It's a sad and true litany of the campaign. Meanwhile, on the ground,
Obama is producing real life delegate wins. That's what he needs to do to finish this out. Obama needs to stay true to his message.

Of all the instances you cite, the two that really stand out for me are the repeated and varied endorsements of McCain over the Democratic front runner and the race baiting. Politically, the endorsements are getting close to the worst thing you can do, ala Zell Miller, and the race baiting is just plain despicable.

I wasn't a big Hill for president fan due to what I saw as the negatives of the Clinton years, the corporate coziness, and the right wing bills passed, but I saw her as a good, fairly reliable, liberal vote in the Senate.

Now I see her as a political bomb thrower. I think back to her remarks about Senator Kerry and his troop joke, and I wonder why I didn't see it coming. Same kind of suicidal political terrorism. It's unacceptable.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
161. Her remarks about Kerry and the troop joke was when I decided I could never vote for her.
That was when I saw the true Hillary. She saw an opportunity to take out a potential challenger to her '08 nomination, and she didn't hesitate for a minute to go in for the kill. Nevermind he was exhausted from working 24/7 to elect a democratic congress. Nevermind it was clearly a mistake. Nevermind he had worked tirelessly to support the troops his entire adult life. Nevermind that we were on the eve of a crucial congressional election and could ill afford the distraction. She didn't hesitate for a minute.

Go back and look at that Hillary, what she said to kneecap him, and how quickly she went on air with her remarks. Look at that Hillary, and the Hillary we have trying to destroy Obama right now is one and the same.
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #161
224. good post nt
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
3. Over the Hill or jumped the shark?
It's always unfortunate to see someone you respect forfeit those things that drew you to them originally. Anytime that happens you have to question yourself; were you naive, uninformed, betrayed, or a fool? It's probably some combination of all those things. Often, we project our own best intentions on folks, but don't beat yourself up too much for having higher beliefs and ideals. We can only hope that those we admire will make a good faith effort at living up to the standards they espouse and we make common cause with those that call on us to rise above ourselves.

Thanks Nance, always enjoy your work.
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vincenzoesq Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
71. Keep the faith
Nicely said, Big B.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
126. I give her more credit than that. She worked all her LIFE for this...
She truly did dedicate herself to the people she represented. She's my senator right now, and she's done well for the people of NY.

I believe she truly felt her legacy would be one of greatness for America, and the stage was set for her. It's hard to blame someone for lashing out when some guy comes out of nowhere, grabs your spotlight, gets your standing ovation, and walks off with your top billing.

For so many of her supporters, this was her show. She worked for it, planned for it, she had it coming to her. It's hard to blame them for feeling Obama's candidacy is insubstantial and unworthy. That's the reason they claim his following is a 'cult' or a 'fad'. It's the reason they refuse to see that he's the real deal.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #126
147. Yeah, darn..it's really too bad she feels she has
to lie to make herself more presentable, especially using the Fake Courage Under Fire Bosnia Fire by Sniper story when there are so many real Soldiers under fire that she totally disprespects by going there.

<snips>

Why Is Hillary Clinton Lying?
by Robert Parry
March 26, 2008—Two weeks ago, I wrote a story that observed a disturbing trend in Hillary Clinton’s campaign – her growing tendency to stretch the truth, twist what her chief rival was saying and then rely on her supporters to go on the offensive against you if you spoke up.

These tendencies were troubling, in part, because they mirrored what had become so common during George W. Bush’s years: to declare that a fantasy is the truth and then to attack the patriotism or sanity of anyone who thinks otherwise. I wrote

A week later, I cited a report in the Boston Globe about Clinton exaggerating her behind-the-scenes support for the State Children’s Health Insurance Program – which was fashioned and passed by a bipartisan congressional effort led by Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Massachusetts, and Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah. I noted that Clinton had transformed her peripheral role into a central theme of her campaign.


<snip>

Not surprisingly, these articles questioning Clinton's truthfulness drew furious reactions from Clinton’s supporters who seem on perpetual alert to any criticism of their candidate, so it can be repudiated as an example of “sexism,” “Hillary bashing” or membership in some “Barack Obama cult.”

<more>
http://baltimorechronicle.com/2008/032608Parry.shtml


hilary is my senator too and I stopped believing in her when I realized that when she voted for the IWR without reading the 90 NIE report that she was planning on using that on her resume to run for president in 2008.

Too bad for our Soldiers it wasn't like bush, cheney, rummy, et al promised it would turn out. hilary put her faith in bush? What judgement she has.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #147
154. Agreed. n/t
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #126
173. Except that's the exact entitlement decried in the OP, and rightly so.
clinton wasn't owed this. She had to earn it, and has failed to do so. That's her fault, not Obama's.

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PetraPooh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:03 AM
Response to Original message
4. I for one am tired of hearing about the fighting between the candidates,
because only one seems to be "fighting." The worse thing I've heard Obama say was that Hillary was using the kitchen sink tactic hoping something would stick. It is so one sided yet it is being publicized as being both candidates on the MSM so now apparently all Dems are going to be disavowed and Gore is trying to get himself nominated. WTF!!! Am I the only one who is seeing this ridiculous lumping of both candidates due to the behavior of one?
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
56. no, you're not the only one! nt
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eagertolearn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
58. It's some Obama supporters who are giving him a bad name...
I see Obama himself running a very clean campaign but some of his supporters need to respond with a smile instead of with anger and insults. Let Obama fight his own fight because he is doing it with class and style instead of with trash talk. Just my opinion!
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
82. glad to hear this stated... I have been wondering myself...ie, Did I miss something?
It has seemed to me that Obama's campaign has been consistently decent, and Clinton's has been increasingly slimy & jarring. I couldn't figure out why I kept hearing how "both campaigns" were slinging dirt... didn't compute.
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aasleka Donating Member (465 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
99. Integrity means asking delegates to break a pledge (an oath)
From the start right up till this minute she has been an awful candidate that I could not support. I do think acting like the victim is not a good role model for the feminists nor having your husband do your work for you. There are plenty of women I would like as President but Hillary isn't one of them.
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ladym55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
159. No, you are definitely not the only one
I'm so very, very, very tired of the campaign and the way the MSM still acts like she can win it. umm, that would be a NO. By allowing her to drag this on and continue to trash Obama like her campaign does leaves the Democratic Party in a mess for fall. And suddenly Al Gore will step in???? umm, that would also be a no. It is TRULY unfair to the man who is WINNING this thing and deserves to win the GE.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
162. OMG! It's the freakin' worst..and I almost lost
it today when talking to my sister who's for Obama(thank goodness) and she said something about "if they don't stop tearing each other down..she's afraid mccain is going to win. Something inside me goes berserk and I have to rein myself in to not lose it, myself. I told her that hilary was the only one tearing down and Obama is running an amazing clean, focused campaign and out there talking about The Economy, Foreign Policy, and Race. She's a busy person and gets news from the tv but she knows what I do so I got her straightened out.:)

She said she really liked his "A More Perfect Union" speech. :)
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
163. I totally agree with you. It's like 3rd grade; blaming all the kids for the actions of one!
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Politicalboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
167. No your not the only one
Obama has not been using the dirty tactics Hillary has been using. I never saw that in his campaign. As a matter of fact I think he has been too nice to her. But he is a gentleman and he won't go to her depth.
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Alii Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
234. Nope!
You're not the only one.

Denial? Check the polls in re truthfulness, honesty and integrity,
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:08 AM
Response to Original message
5. like you, I'm more than aware that they've gone too far
and not only me, but my best friends, my sibling, and my mother all realize the same thing.

Praising McCain, a couple days ago, Bill sounded like he had just endorsed him for president. They are not reflective of the party they were once leaders of.

good job and thanks, Nance!
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mythyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:17 AM
Response to Original message
7. K&R. great editorial Nance
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 04:20 AM by mythyc
I just read this whole thing aloud to my girlfriend and her sister, both strong self-willed women, and they are in complete agreement with everything you wrote, emphatically so. Particularly for them, they're saying right now that more than anything else they're first and foremost sad about how she has abandoned her integrity and sacrificed a respectable legacy, and with it women's faith in that achievement, to such an extreme and shocking extent. And, similarly, that Bill has also lost as much if not more respect in so indulging in such negativity and hubris.

For myself, I'll add that your final contradiction, on decrying "disenfranchisement" even whilst provoking a usurping of majorities across the board (in pledged delegates, total delegates, total states, popular vote, etc -- even if MI and FL were counted and even if the uncommitted MI votes were not hypothetically awarded to Obama {see: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5188613}) encapsulates it all so well, in a way that is too disappointing and worrisome to either wrangle over or even simply signalize. It's gotten to the point that I just can't wait till it's over, an ironical sad twist to what otherwise has been the favorite and most inspiring election cycle of my political life.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:25 AM
Response to Original message
9. I've Gone through many stages with her
I started out not liking her but since the campaign started to about November, I warmed up to her. I kind of saw her as hard to beat and thought at the time that it wouldnt be so bad if she's the nominee. Then in November-December things changed. She used the gender card after the debate in Philly and eventually stated that it would be fun to attack Obama. I thought that was tasteless but that was just the beginning. Then you have Billy Shaheen and Mark Penn and their talk of Cocaine, Bob Kerrey and his incessant talk of Obama and his Muslim heritage. It was hard to separate her actions from her surrogates. Slowly through this campaign I began to see just how calculated she could be. From her tears in NH, to her Shame on you moment, to sniper gate, little by little I was turned off more and more. But the pinnacle for me was the same as it was for you. Her propping up herself and McCain and tearing down Obama with the Life Experience and CIC statements really made me dislike her. I thought those actions were pretty disgusting and soured my feelings for Clinton for good.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:52 AM
Response to Original message
10. I'm going to do the unthinkable and disagree.
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 04:57 AM by cornermouse
And although I get tired of saying this, no, I don't consider myself a Hillary supporter although I have begun to lean that way recently due in part to the incredible nastiness I have encountered from the Obama supporters. I, for one, will never, ever forget the attacks they launched on Chelsea here on DU of all places.

First, I continue to be disappointed in the eagerness of some to disallow the last states a choice of candidates. Indeed I was shocked that pressure would be and was exerted on the field of candidates early in the process to drop out of the race and narrow the field down to what some genius probably thought of as a "we can't miss with a historic race" strategy. I also continue to be disappointed in the apparent belief that the democratic process is flawed and should be altered without lengthy thought and debate to suit the political situation of the moment. In other words, if the race is cut short due to anything other than votes AFTER they are cast then it is no longer a democratic process. The race is not over because the votes have not been cast and neither candidate has the required number votes residing in their column.

I do think that something should be done after the convention to change the voting process. Certainly this race has highlighted several problems. Changing now, however, should not be considered an option.

Hillary is simply doing what most male candidates would do if they were in the same position. For some reason this appears to be particularly bad. I keep wondering if that's due to a little of the “Mom has always stepped forward and does whatever’s necessary to restore family peace” expectation or mindset in operation among posters here. But then again, maybe that’s irrelevant as well.

Although I'm not too sure what Jane Austen has to do with Hillary's campaign, I tend to think that overall she would have approved of Hillary's refusal to back down and to persevere in the face of adversity. That is a quality that Hillary has always displayed. It's what allowed her to survive the republican attacks when Bill was in the White House.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I dont understand what any of this has to do with her being a female
The reason people wnat her out of the race is simple. She has an extremely hard time to almost impossible chance of winning the pledged delegates and the supers most likely will not overturn the will of the people. So instead of having our candidates bloody each other up to the point where no Dem can win in the fall, people wish Hillary would leave. If she doesnt choose to leave, at least run a campaign where you are not propping up McCain while tearing down Obama, because that does nothing good for the party.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. The race is not over.
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 05:00 AM by cornermouse
Neither candidate has the necessary votes to win in their column. All you have are projections. You are denying the democratic process a chance to work. You are denying voters a choice. I can't say it any plainer than that.

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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I'm not denying anything...I havent called for her to get out
I wish she would, but like Obama, I am not calling for her to drop out. And do you know what I dont like? I dont like Hillary dismissing any of Obama's wins with the "That state doesnt count" meme.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Was dropping out not an underlying theme of Nance's
essay? Sure looked that way to me...
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Well your previous u post constantly said "YOU are denying the democratic process"
So I safely assumed you were referring to me.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Did you call for Hillary to get out
so the electoral process will be, ummm, nicer, more tidy/less bloody, or convenient for the other candidate? If so, then I was indeed referring to you. Now, why don't you run along and misunderstand someone else for a while.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. I have never called for Hillary to drop out, and you dont have to be rude
Now if she loses PA, then I will definitely call for her to drop out, and I think she definitely would.
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #21
220. sure they are allowed their rudeness
its all they have left besides a deflated sense of entitlement
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #220
228. Thus spaketh the pot.
and one need look no further than your current posts for evidence. :eyes:
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. I agree w/ this
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 05:34 AM by enigmatic
Hillary, Like Obama, Edwards, Dean, Wellstone, Kerry etc are/were politicians. And everytime I see a "I used to LOVE______, but now that they've done_____, my respect for them has gone", I shake my head. Politics is inherently more corrupt the higher you go on the national ladder, and if you've gotten to the position to run for President w/ a real shot of winning, you've stepped on people, make backdoor deals, and have run hardball (and frequently, dirty) campaigns to get there. That's reality.

Black/White "YOUR candidate is Satan, MY Candidate is The Messiah!" are Fool's Gold, because every political figure is a flawed figure, just like every other human being. If you see your candidate as anything other than a politician, you'll be disappointed, outraged and sad at something they eventiually do, because you thought they were something else than what they are; politicians.

The Hyper-Partisan candidate supporters who fling their shit here in GD: P are a lost cause to me; they will be the first ones who will turn on Obama or Hillary and call them the usual slurs and memes flung around here the moment they get into the WH because they don't govern the exact way those partisans want. And I'll laugh to myself then, just as I'm laughing to myself now over this crap of a Primary Season here.

I don't want to be "inspired", I don't want to be part of a "movement", I don't want my candidate to be The Messiah, politically or otherwise. I want them to govern to the best of their abilities w/ the ideals closest to my own, but still knowing that I'm not going to agree w/ them 100 percent on every issue.

I was a Chris Dodd supporter; I think he would make the best President out of all the candidates running this year. And if he had been one of the front-runners and went hardball against the rest of the field, I would expect it, just like every other candidate. It's politics. Nobody, NOBODY, is pure.





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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Exactly.
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DemExpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. Hear, hear!
:thumbsup: :kick:

DemEx
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #17
89. Mostly true, but what does a politician stand for? I just watched an interesting movie
called "Amazing Grace" -- not a great movie but a really inspiring true story from history, about William Wilberforce and his campaign to end the slave trade. He was a politician, and I'm sure he had lots of faults.

Hillary says she stands for certain things, but what she manifests as a public figure and in her campaign doesn't match up, my opinion. Lack of transparency, dishonesty, viciousness, sarcasm, and more.

It's possible for someone to be a politician and walk their talk. I don't think she does, I think she talks out of both sides of her mouth, and I haven't seen much she's accomplished that impresses me.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
39. If I Could Recommend an Individual Post
This would be it.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
40. It's not the staying in the race, it's the negativity
I think she has crossed a line. Apparently, her campaign has mistaken the primary for the general election, and has used negative campaigning techniques against the front runner, damaging both of them in the general election. It is no accident that both of them are down in the national polls against John McCain.

As far as 'Hillary is just doing what male candidates would do in her position,' I disagree. A male candidate like Richard Nixon might do it, George W. Bush certainly did it, but I can't remember a Democratic campaign this nasty. It's one thing to stay in the campaign until the end - that is perseverance. It is another thing to stay in the campaign and hurl bombs at the front runner. Her McCain comments were especially egregious - comparing another Presidential candidate unfavorably to the Republican nominee is bad for our party.

Perhaps Nance's use of Jane Austen was a bit off, but so what? This is a case where a trait that is positive in some situations has become a negative. Perseverance in the face of adversity is commendable, but when it becomes an unwillingness to face the facts, combined with a willingness to destroy your opponent and divide the party to attain your goal, it becomes a fatal flaw. Somehow, she reminds me more of Captain Ahab now than a Jane Austen heroine.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #40
182. Exactly my point ...
"It's not the staying in the race, it's the negativity."

If Hill was running a clean campaign, that didn't involve the constant dissing of her opponent as a means of making herself seem the better choice, I wouldn't care if she stayed in the race until six months after Obama's inauguration.

(BTW, I was not attempting to make a reference to Jane Austen - I merely used "sense and sensibility" and "pride and prejudice" because they are widely-known phrases. That's why they are not in caps, as would be appropriate if I were referring to book titles per se, or inferring some connection to Ms Austen's novels.)

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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
87. In my opinion, it's not her perseverence that's the problem. If she had been taking
the reins of her own campaign and setting the standard for all who speak on her behalf, I would feel differently about the campaign continuing. Because it's true that there's not a huge gap in the popular vote, even though that's not the way this primary chooses a candidate, she does have many supporters.

But she has allowed so much that is so wrong to go on in her name, and contributed to it either overtly, through implication, or through surrogates, including Bill. Her campaign has been ugly and deceptive, and continues to be so. How do supporters of Hillary not see this? It baffles me.

If she were in charge of her campaign and setting a higher standard for decency, and had been spending these months going after McCain instead of doing everything possible to undermine Obama, she might have won.

The mess of her campaign to me does not bode well for a presidency. Secrecy, deceptions, sliming the opposition, playing to people's fears.. no thanks.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #87
101. I could say the same about Obama.
I'm sure you won't agree, but yeah, I could say the same about Obama.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #101
117. You COULD say it but it wouldn't be true.
Unfortunately, with Hillary, it IS true. When you praise the opposing party's candidate in an effort to damage the candidate from your own party, who is ahead of you, IMO you've crossed a line.

Both HRC and Bill have done this. Bill has also questioned Obama's patriotism, and touted McCain's. There's politics, and then there's really DIRTY politics. I certainly expect that type of thing from the repukes, but not from my own party.

Can you give me an example of Obama saying McCain would be more qualified than Hillary? I doubt it, but if you can, please do. That was when they jumped the shark, and in my mind, both Clinton's are now in the same league as Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman. Their behavior in this primary disgusts me, and reminds me so much of the opposing party that it will be difficult for me to vote for Hillary in the next Senate race, and I'm far from alone.

It boggles my mind to see that there are some dems who are ok with this, and who still support HRC, who is doing far more damage to herself than she's doing to Obama. I no longer can watch her without cringing - something previously felt only for bush, cheney and their minions. My mom, who supported Hillary, feels the same way. My daughter who was undecided, also feels the same way. Hillary's campaign has lost her so much support, yet she shows no signs of changing from "attack Obama" mode, no matter how it might hurt him or the party in the GE. That is just.not.right.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #117
120. point of view.
You have yours. I have mine.
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #120
124. "curious and curiouser" as Alice said.
I happen to respect that people really do have different points of view, and that each is valid. This is a conundrum when somebody wants to argue with me. All I can figure is there is no fixed reality in any of this. Each of us is the center of our own universe, unique to us.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. waxing philosophically and metaphysically, are we?
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 03:08 PM by cornermouse
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #125
184. It's not my fault!
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cleveramerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #124
153. A special interest group of one
I feel the same way too often to recount here.
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #153
185. Isn't that the way it is?
We just see things differently! and what crime is there in that?
Who can judge?
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Heathen57 Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #120
188. Do you have any facts
to support your opinion, or is it just based on your dislike for Obama?

I am really curious if you have any real reasons for what you claim?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #120
213. claiming "point of view" is no substitute for making a case.
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cleveramerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #213
214. Isn't "making the case" for the candidate to do.
I seek to convince no one of anything.
People arrive at a site like this with their opinions fully formed.
Opinions are all anybody has here.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #213
216. so we're not allowed to have our own individual point of view
any more? We have to adopt or cultivate the "correct" point of view? Interesting in a bizarre way.
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #117
206. If I could, I'd K&R this post
When I heard HRC tout McCain over Obama, I just sank in my chair. She didn't realize the gravity of that comment.....it will come back to bite her in the rump!
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #206
225. I agree it will come back to bite her - it already has
to some extent, anyway. I find it hard to believe that she didn't realize the gravity of it, though. She and Bill are seasoned politicians, and they HAVE to know. Yet, it's been repeated several times. One has to wonder why.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #87
179. No one made her lie repeatedly about nonexistent sniper fire.
No one made her endorse McLame, or race-bait, or break the rules, or any of the other things she's willingly done in her vain attempt to win that which she will not win.

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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #179
186. I agree, and frankly I don't like her. However
??

something there is that doesn't love a wall, that wants it down.
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
130. voting for or against someone based on comments on a message board is idiotic. n/t
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #130
149. I don't believe I said I was voting for or against someone based
on comments on a message board, but makes you feel good, go ahead. I can't stop you.
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #149
160. makes me feel good? what a presumption. at any rate...to quote you....
I have begun to lean that way recently due in part to the incredible nastiness I have encountered from the Obama supporters

:shrug:
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #160
165. Prithee kinde sir?
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 06:36 PM by cornermouse
Wouldst thou considereth "idiotic" to be pejorative terminology? If so, thou must maketh allowances... or not.
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #165
168. Try prithee kinde lady, yo. n/t
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #168
177. Nah.
I'm going to exercise my feminine prerogative and refuse to move from this spot until I decide its time.
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HooptieWagon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
155. "incredible nastiness I have encountered from the Obama supporters"
I missed that, could you provide a link? I'm sure you won't have a problem providing a few examples of the incredible nastiness by Obama supporters, if it's so fresh in your mind. Thanks in advance.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #155
176. ...
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HooptieWagon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #176
232. Thank you. OK, just what was incredibly nasty in that thread?
I read the entire thread. OP was citing a national poll by a reputable polling company (Pew) that is not flattering to the about 25% of Hillary supporters who logically could be judged racist. I don't see a problem with the OP posting that. Are you disputing the results of the polling company? Shouldn't your anger be directed at the 25% of Hillary supporters who would appear to be racists? The replying posts were commenting on the OP - uh, this is a message board. Only two posts were deleted, which seems to be well below average. The mods have let the thread stand, so apparently they don't have a problem with the content.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #232
235. ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5289051&mesg_id=5291467 you are joking, right? the percentile gathered of straight-up democratic voters via that "reputable polling company" is below 25%, it's closer to 21%, and the leaves a crashing 79% to skew the data any way they feel they need to. so i don't know where you get that number, ot why you would consider such a poll so pleasing to the eye.

uh, yeah, this is a message board, doi! but not having a thread locked, especially as of late, is no gold standard for that thread being then above board and not per se nasty. there was another such thread last night...but i'm not going to point it out to you. it is your vote, it is therefore your research to either complete or no

having designed polling samples, bona fide scientific samples and not push polls, skewed race baited data is imo not-all-that-much-less than base-nasty as a practical matter again imo. that you are disinclined to see anything wrong with such data so loaded/biased would seem to codify your relationship to it as being in agreement...that's your call

it is clear we see data itself from different points of view to say the least

all the best
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
169. Oh, Austen's here offering her demure two-sided tea cups; no need to pull taffy twixt: Out of Africa
and Arsenic & Old Lace.

My sense is that the BO camp wants it to be over for a couple reasons not the least of which being, 1) because they know precisely the manner in which they've run their campaign thus far; they've had many months, many news cycles fusing 'cool' onto BO's high riding, "Why are we whispering?" stand-up routine that he's played from cheering university crowd to cheering university crowd. It's been several weeks now since it was suggested by some in the press; that BO get out from the university circuit, and start answering some questions. Among the net result has been that casting gentile asparagus, so as to say, is now considered politically more cool than having a plan worthy of 500 words or less. University backdrops notwithstanding, BO has utilized them as others have utilized our military bases round the world. And indeed we seen after all, and in spite of all this talk of change; there was the phalanx of American Flags behind a speech that should have been delivered months ago. And not in response to faltering poll numbers.

And, 2) the BO camp does not want to have to work that hard. My sense is that it is their sense that the country should simply be handed to them, again, 'no questions asked'. Which I find very strange indeed. An odd sort of narcissism.

My greater concern beyond is that after having fused "Why are we whispering?" onto what is now accepted as cool, some-others calling for the contest and drop out and the final considerations along with it; they are suggesting that the disenfranchisement of American voters also be thought of as cool.

I do agree that the voting system needs change. I say start with 'super delegates'. This looming specter of 'super delegates', already laboring under a landscape altering Electoral College scares up the likelihood of too much tinkering for one system.

Let the votes be counted.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
175. The Chelsea thing was fucked up. clinton's lies about sniper fire were MORE fucked up.
She deserves no sympathy for putting herself in this position.

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Alii Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
199. Great thread NanceGregg
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 11:22 PM by Alii
A quote from cornermouse.

"And although I get tired of saying this, no, I don't consider myself a Hillary supporter although I have begun to lean that way recently due in part to the incredible nastiness I have encountered from the Obama supporters. I, for one, will never, ever forget the attacks they launched on Chelsea here on DU of all places."

I guess, that like beauty, nastiness is in the eye of the beholder. My eyes have seen more nastiness from Hillary supporters than I've seen from Barack supporters. But, we are not voting for nasty supporters we are voting for a candidate. That argument, leaning towards Hiillary because of nastiness, makes about as much sense as voting for her only because she's a woman.

What happened to honesty, truthfulness and integrity...check the polls. What has happened to our values?

A senior-senior citizen, registered republican, voting for Obama in the general election. C'mon fellow old duffers, give the youngsters their due. Unselfishly give them HOPE and vote Barack Obama.



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Oldtimeralso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #199
200. Welcome Alii
Great post. I'm also a senior but a life long Democrat who hates what has happened to America's values. Isn't there an old Chinese saying that a fish rots from the head. We the people need to have someone who will listen. As a constituent of Sen. Obama I can tell you that he (or his office)has responded to my communications with thoughtful and direct answers not form letters. This tells me that he does listen to the people.
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Alii Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #200
233. Thanks Fellow Old-timer
I've been trying to post a thread in re NAFTA and loss of jobs. The gates aren't opening up for me.

My latest soapbox issue is supporting Barack Obama's candidacy.

I'm a veteran and have great respect for John McCain...he is a great American. But, like many of we old-timers, me specifically, tend to have lapses of memory.

God Bless America...

God Bless Truthfulness, Honesty and Integrity...apparently a dying breed.

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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:11 AM
Response to Original message
14. Sorry to lose you Nance, but at least we still have Maya Angelou in Hillary's corner.
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mhoran Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:28 AM
Response to Original message
18. Very, very well said
Thanks for your eloquence.
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noel711 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
22. Good comment, but I beg to differ on the point of..
grace.

You characterized Hillary Clinton as a person of 'grace' during
Bill's tenure in office.

Not in my book. "Grace" is a way of defining how one behaves
under pressure. "Grace" doesn't mean you always have a smile
plastered on your face, but it does mean that whatever the
relationship, it's always focused on accepting the love
with awareness, and caring, and the best regard.

If 'grace' was part and parcel of her personality,
she'd have quit using that meme "the vast right-wing conspiracy"
and accept the face that we all have our differences, and that
we try to do our best. Instead it was blame others for our own
inadequacies...

If 'grace' was what she was about, she'd have downplayed her
own experience and curriculum vitae, her own 'hubris' and simply
mentioned that Obama's experience and her own weren't that different,
but the campaign should be about service to this country. After all
Abraham Lincoln had little experience when he was nominated...

If 'grace' was part of her character, Hillary would have
stood up for Barack OBama when he was slammed over the
Jeremiah Wright controversy... she knew Rev. Wright was at
the White HOuse in Bill's hour of need. But she said nothing.

If 'grace' was part of her outward personna, she would have
included Obama in her list of those who pass whatever presidential
litmus test she imagined.

But then, attemtping to be gracious myself,
I wish her well, and know that whatever the American people
decide will be a welcome change to the last eight years.

I know that in this political climate,, grace is not a issue
we can afford to ignore.

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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #22
59. agreed nt
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mythyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
106. great post n/t
:thumbsup:
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
23. Wow. You expressed my feelings exactly.
I'm a woman of a certain age, too. I started off wavering between Hillary and Obama. And now I am so disappointed with -- even angry at -- Hillary.
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:33 AM
Response to Original message
25. Apropos title and penetrating journal entry, NG.
Once I ended my unprincipled habit of automatically sticking up for Hillary Clinton, I allowed myself the luxury to step back and observe. Not only was I deeply disappointed, I began to question my earlier support. Was she always willing to win at any cost? Did she always alter her positions to gain optimum political benefit?

I don`t care how many blue collar workers corporate media assign to Hillary`s camp, Clinton`s political machine has one goal...power. That means any barricade to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue will be destroyed, even if it means McCain must be elevated and Obama debased in order to do it. The gears are ordered into action, the IOUs called in and the eyes trained on the prize. Change became the enemy along with the grassroots calling for it. I honestly believe the fight within the Democratic Party is between accepted, automatic enthronement and change. Ask the DLC.

There really is very little difference in essence between the Clinton`s method of operation and Karl Rove`s. One clear example (of many) was the use of race baiting once it became clear the black vote majority was jumping ship. Another was Hillary`s Iraq War vote, handed over as positive proof of her rightwing patriotism. It doesn`t add up in my book that someone known for consistent attention to detail could have gotten fooled by the likes of Junior Bush.

Hillary Clinton was so certain of her rightful entitlement to this nomination that she made a fatal mistake. While she was focused on getting in good with the Right, she totally missed what was marching up over the hill on the Left.



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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
26. She's turning this campaign into a hostage crisis
and the media is starting to pick up on it.



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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #26
45. What part of Obama adopting Bush & Reagan's foreign policy do you like?
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #45
81. Oh, Fock, ANOTHER one?

I like the part where the monkeys flying out of your butt make your posts for you.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #81
94. The monkeys make more sense.
:rofl:
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Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #81
96. !!!
:rofl:

Someday, I am gonna use that line on someone!

:rofl:
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #45
91. Obama's foreign policy critique.. have a read
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
27. Double post
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 06:36 AM by BeyondGeography
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ecdab Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:40 AM
Response to Original message
28. There is a diversity of opinions that people hold as to why Hillary
should drop out of the race. I think your piece speaks for many. Perhaps some of Hillarys supporters will read this and underatnd it even if they disagree with it.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
29. Great piece Nance
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
30. She stoops to conquer
Good piece as always. :thumbsup:
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Stuart G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
31. Your last sentence says it all...it is about integrity..she now has none.
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SaveAmerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
32. You must have read my mind, this is exactly how I feel except I had hoped to vote for her...
Every word you wrote makes so much sense to me, but at this point it's like pouring a cup of water on a fire. It's as though reality is not making it through to this campaign.

This sentence stands out the most to me: "I am truly heartsick that the Hillary Clinton I admired for years is gone – or, more sadly, perhaps never existed other than in my own imagination." I wish the vision that I had still remains.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
128. Save America,
It was the very same sentence that said it so well for me.

I must have felt this way when I learned that Santa Claus was a myth. I guess I wanted to believe The Clintons were more than they actually were.
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SaveAmerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #128
195. We just have to make sure all of our politicians know they're being watched and
we're holding them accountable, no matter their party.

:hug:
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
33. Oh amen. You said it perfectly
And if Hillary Clinton is willing to put aside anything in favor of personal ambition, what makes us think that would change once she's in the WH? She's showing that what matters most is HER, not US. It's a huge disappointment.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
35. I'll say it again. Hillary is emotionally ill & the hangers-on feeding off her campaign making money
don't care enough to help her start the process of letting go.

There is indeed a point when one realizes a dream must be let go. It's a process.

Hillary refuses to go there. And this denial is hurting the Democratic Party and prospects for the 08 Election.
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wildeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
36. I grew up seeing Hillary Clinton as a role model.
My younger sister worked tirelessly on her husband's first campaign. I have defended both of them endlessly. And now I am very angry with her for her recent behavior. As Leahy said, she certainly has the right to continue to run, but does she have a reason?
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
37. Nailed it....
As Always
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
38. Great post! (eom)
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
41. I Started to Put This Thread On Ignore. Wish I'd Carried Through
Because by the time I got 2/3 way through, all I could think was, "oh, bullshit. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit."

Hillary Clinton and her campaign haven't done anything any other candidate, that actually wanted to win, wouldn't do.

In a game of this variety, anyone who is the sort of player who would voluntarily would take themselves out for greater good will never have a chance of winning, anyway. Whichever candidate is genuinely running for the greater good of the people will never bear the title of President of the United States of America.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. That doesn't make any sense at all.
As to the thread, yes, it's sad, but the sooner the Clintons go away the sooner we can reconstruct our slightly shopworn false memories about their "accomplishments."
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #41
46. The OP has always been Anybody but Clinton. It's a typical hitpiece by her.
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 09:19 AM by goldcanyonaz
And, she thinks she's so cute with the "Over the Hill" comment.

:puke:
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #46
57. That's just a flat-out lie and you know it.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #57
61. Many of us liked Hillary Clinton at the start of the campaign, supported her in the 90s
but the candidate Hillary is now is nothing like the candidate she was at the start of the campaign, and I find that to be sad and rather disturbing.
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #61
132. I still like her but I'm going with the other guy. n/t
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #46
73. "Always"? You mean since you signed on in Dec '07? n/t
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #46
83. Would you like us to call the WHAAAAAMBULANCE????
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #46
107. This is only the second time ...
... that I have posted an OP that is negative about Hillary - the first being when she endorsed McCain and dismissed Obama's entire lifetime as "one speech".

And I have never said "anybody but Clinton".

Of course, if you did a little research before making bold accusations with absolutely no foundation, you would have known that already.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #46
118. Don't be an idiot.
Nevermind, too late.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #41
55. The real bullshit...
"Hillary Clinton and her campaign haven't done anything any other candidate, that actually wanted to win, wouldn't do."

And that is the main reason why so many will never support her and will not vote for her. We are TIRED of this type of campaigning with the divisions caused by racism and xenophobia - the Clintons have run the kind of campaign you would expect the Republicans to run. They are not worthy of any further honor in this country and she certainly is not worthy of the votes of those who want their country back.

We no longer need a president who merely wants to be president - we need a president who feels an obligation and a calling to lead this country.

And we have been reminded of that by Barack Obama and so even if he loses we still have won.
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #55
66. You do realize that this not voting for candidate A also applies for candidate B.
And, we all lose.

Hooray for us!!

:woohoo:

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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #66
74. Well, from the horse's _____...
Hillary promoted John McCain over Barack Obama. So apparently she will vote for John McCain. Some, unfortunately, will follow her lead.

The rest of us, including many Republicans, will vote for Barack Obama. If he's the nominee. I don't believe he will be. I believe the Clintons will follow the example of their adopted family and just steal the nomination the way the Bushes have stolen their elections.

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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #55
208. Well said. n/t
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #41
133. No Crisco,
Hillary crossed a line when she said that even a war mongering Republican thief would be a better choice for Commander in Chief than Barack Obama. Secondly, her attack on Obama, for his choice of pastor, was a line she crossed, a line that revealed her true nature. This true Hillary nature has been a grave disappointment to me.
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #133
136. Crickets are replying to your post
You stated facts and suddenly there's silence.


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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #136
145. I've heard it often, the silence. nt
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ExPatLeftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
146. Sad Rationalization
"Hillary Clinton and her campaign haven't done anything any other candidate, that actually wanted to win, wouldn't do."

It is sad indeed when the only thing one has left is the excuse that "any other candidate" would have been just as dirty as one's own...
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Lucky 13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #41
151. Death by cynicism. Evolve or cease to exist.
"Whichever candidate is genuinely running for the greater good of the people will never bear the title of President of the United States of America"

To hear something so horribly cynical from someone in my own party gave me chills. You have accepted the parameters that the establishment has set for you. With that thinking nothing would ever change, improve. And this is precisely why your candidate is INHERENTLY INCAPABLE of delivering the change the people are demanding.

She has far too many similarities to the other side. The same sense of entitlement. The same sense of elitism. The same obfuscation of the truth. The same greed. The same power hunger. The same friends. The same ruthlessness. The same disbelief that the people of this country ACTUALLY WANT SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

She is part of the machine that we WILL break down. Your era of politics is ending. Evolve or cease to exist.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #41
204. Other candidates repeatedly tell bald-faced proven lies about nonexistent sniper fire?
Wow, must have missed those!

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
42. Bill is ready to saddle up...
This is starting to sound like the "over the Hill" gang. :-)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
43. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
48. Her abilities have never been in question. But.
For me the disquieting consideration has been, from the moment Hillary Clinton announced her candidacy, that the nation simply does not need another dynasty. I will go so far as to suggest that we should consider a constitutional prohibition against familial succession to the Oval Office. The present state of the union is prime testimony to the inherent hazards of dynastic thinking. As Democrats, as Americans, we are obliged to set the best precedent by not following the worst precedent.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #48
137. If it would keep Jeb Bush out
"I will go so far as to suggest that we should consider a constitutional prohibition against familial succession to the Oval Office."

If it would keep Jeb Bush out of office I could support it.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
49. The lesson to be learned is
don't put people up on pedestals, because sooner or later you'll have to bring them down again. Give your allegiance first and foremost to ideas and principles. They are much more likely to endure and much less likely to betray or disillusion you.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
50. “I think you'll be able to imagine many things Senator McCain will be able to say.”
In fairness, that's what she said before the "lifetime of experience" thing. “I think you'll be able to imagine many things Senator McCain will be able to say."

I don't feel the outrage many people do. Obama and other Democrats who are against Clinton have also pointed to reasons she might lose in the general election -- most notably, personal matters (people don't like her, she's "polarizing," etc.). Agree or disagree, it's not out of bounds to say it; and agree or disagree, I don't see how it's out of bounds to say that McCain and Clinton have more life experience than Obama. (It's the flipside of representing the "failed policies of the past" vs. the excitement of a young "change" candidate.)

I think what many people react to is the fact that she's running against Obama.

If what she's doing is distasteful, it'll backfire on her. (Her, not the party and not Obama.) I disagree with the notion that the RNC will make a commercial of her saying negative things about Obama. That would HELP him in some circles and they know it; they'll have people who are more persuasive to the voters they're courting say negative things about Obama.

So, I respect others' feelings but just don't feel the same way.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
51. Excellent Piece Nance !!! - K & R !!!
:bounce::kick::bounce:

:hi:
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
52. Well said
I wish H. Clinton had the wisdom to see that she is only hurting herself at this point in the contest.
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
60. After first Dennis;
Then Edwards dropped, I was left with the present two candidates to vote for in Ohio primary. I thought hard for a week or so and ended up voting for Obama. At the time, I had nothing against Hillary and in fact there were only a few items separating the candidates in my mind and I could have enthusiastically endorsed Hillary. That was then, and now I will vote for the Democratic nominee for president; however, I truly hope it is not Hillary. Go Barack!
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sonias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
62. Beautifully laid out
Very good job on the write up Nance!

:applause:



Sonia
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
63. That was exactly my turning point as well. nt
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
64. A powerful statement, Nance--
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 10:05 AM by Jackpine Radical
rendered all the more meaningful because of your long-standing even-handedness in your writing here. You always kept above the Primary fray (eventually, after many months gently and quietly letting your preference be known, it is true). When I see you coming forth with this strong declaration, I know that the tipping point has been reached. I can only hope "She" has the wisdom and courage to do what is now obviously the right thing and withdraw. To the extent that the Democratic Party has eminences grises, I hope they are gathering to bring her the word.

You know, I was first one of those delusional hopers for a Gore run, and then an Edwards supporter. I always opposed Hillary because I see her as a DLC Corporate Democrat, even though I respected her as a strong and brave woman. I was always willing to tune out the negative vibes I sometimes felt from her, attributing them to the right-wing hate factories. But as the primary progressed, I came to see her very differently, as a severely personality-disordered and egocentric manipulator of the people around her. Something like a high-functioning Borderline Personality Disorder with strong narcissistic traits. I can have empathy and pity for someone like that, but I can't trust them.

So, yeah, Nance. Right on.
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Zambero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
65. Arrogannce is toxic
And so is attempting to re-define oneself with fictitious events. First and foremost, no one is "entitled" to elective office or even to a nomination. Whenever "pride and prejudice" are deemed to be defining character traits within your own party (let alone the country at large), it's time to face reality. That hasn't occurred just yet, but if Ms. Clinton has a shred of dignity left, it will happen sooner rather than later.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #65
84. Precisely.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
67. Love the Austin reference! To be plain, I think she's Caroline Bingley
It is a great disappointment to me - a feminist, a woman of roughly HRC's age - to be unable to support the first woman who had a real shot at the Presidency.

Although by the time she ran for NYS Senator, I was already fed up by the Clinton "centrism" - fed up is kind, welfare "deform" enraged me, among other rightward policies - but I worked hard nonetheless on her campaign. Then came IWR. And now this viscious campaign. By the time she was the "presumptive" nominee she was about the last Dem I wanted to see as President.

Like the detestable Miss Bingley, she had every opportunity to grow into a principled and admirable person. And like Miss Bingley, she has squandered it on personal ambition and worse, a sick hungering for power at any cost.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
68. I don't agree with everything you've written here, Nance...
but I'm saddened, and do understand the dissapointment Sen. Clinton must feel.

K&R for a thoughtful view of the Senator.
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vincenzoesq Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
70. Rignt on, Nance!
As usual, you are able to cut through all the "stuff," to the real deal. I thank you for your ability to articulate my thoughts, better than I. You rock.
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Raffi Ella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
72. I disagree altogether with your post
You're an Obama supporter and while you try very hard to appear genuine in your assessment of Hillary's run it's obvious you're just parroting ObamaCo.; nothing original or believable here.

As you expected, you'll get like minded replies here at Obama Underground but out in the real world? it's a whole other ball game; 22% think Obama should drop out, same as Clinton's number - Speaks volumes about reality . :)
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #72
76. "Obama Underground". Stop right there.
You've won me over, Hillary it is! :-)

At this stage, what's the point of a post such as yours? Wouldn't it be wiser to go where you might actually gain some votes for Sen. Clinton? But try to avoid personally insulting them, so you might perhaps get a few.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #72
79. reality?

December 10, 2007
Third Clinton Volunteer Knew Of Smear E-Mail

A third volunteer for Hillary Clinton's campaign was aware of a propaganda e-mail alleging that Barack Obama is a Muslim who plans on "destroying the U.S. from the inside out. "Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential Candidacy," the email reads. "Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the U.S. from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level."

Two Clinton volunteers, Linda Olson and Judy Rose, have already been asked to resign from the campaign for their roles in forwarding the e-mail. The AP reported yesterday that Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, sent a version of the e-mail to 11 people, including Ben Young, a regional field director for Chris Dodd's campaign. Young passed it on to the AP.

http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/12/third_clinton_v.html


Kerrey Apologizes to Obama Over Remark
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=4031436
Kerrey's mention of Obama's middle name and his Muslim roots raised eyebrows because they are also used as part of a smear campaign on the Internet that falsely suggests Obama is a Muslim who wants to bring jihad to the United States.
Obama is a Christian.
The Clinton campaign has already fired two volunteer county coordinators in Iowa for forwarding hoax e-mails with the debunked claim. Last week, a national Clinton campaign co-chairman resigned for raising questions about whether Obama's teenage drug use could be used against him, so Kerrey's comments raised questions about whether the Clinton campaign might be using another high-profile surrogate to smear Obama.



Hillary: Sorry for Any Offense Campaign (Bill) Has Caused

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB65wJ6Rcfs


Bill Clinton Asks for a Second Chance
By Liz Halloran
Posted February 11, 2008
The morning after his wife, Hillary, was routed in three state contests by Sen. Barack Obama in their dead-heat battle for the Democratic nomination, former President Bill Clinton made his case for her before a packed Sunday service at one of the largest black churches in Washington, D.C.
But first he offered an apology of sorts for racially tinged comments he made about Obama and his candidacy that have triggered a backlash in the black community and among many other Democrats.

Clinton invoked his "worship of a God of second chances" in pronouncing himself glad to be at the Temple of Praise, which claims nearly 15,000 members. His invocation of second chances echoed comments he made early last week at black churches in California, where he campaigned for his wife before that state's
Super Tuesday primary, which she won.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-

2008/2008/02/11/bill-clinton-asks-for-a-second-chance.html


Source: Newsday
Posted on Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Barack Obama Accepts Apology From Hillary Clinton
Washington D.C. 12/15/2007 09:17 AM GMT (FINDITT)

Hillary Clinton went straight to Barack Obama with an apology following a staffer's remarks about any skeletons that may be lurking in Obama's closet, pointing out that she had accepted the staffer's resignation over the disparaging remarks. Obama accepted her at her word, according to his campaign staff, and is moving on without letting it interrupt his campaign plans.


Obama is currently leading the polls in Iowa and New Hampshire, the two early primary states often considered key to the process, according to numbers at usaelectionpolls.com, but on a national level Clinton still holds a huge lead. The most recently posted poll results show Obama with 31 percent of the
probable voters in New Hampshire backing him with 29 percent showing support for Clinton.
http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=30629&cat=5

Clinton Camp Pushes O-Bomber Links: Ignores
Her Own Radical Ties
By: Justin Rood

ABC News - The Hillary Clinton campaign pushed to reporters today stories about Barack Obama and his ties to former members of a radical domestic terrorist group -- but did not note that as president, Clinton's husband pardoned more than a dozen convicted violent radicals, including a member of the same group
mentioned in the Obama stories."Wonder what the Republicans will do with this issue," mused Clinton spokesman Phil Singer in one e-mail to the media, containing a New York Sun article reporting a $200 contribution from William Ayers, a founding member of the 1970s group Weather Underground, to Obama in 2001.
In a separate e-mail, Singer forwarded an article from the Politico newspaper reporting on a 1995 event at a private home that brought Obama together with Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, another member of the radical group.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4330128&page=1


Bill Clinton To Apologize At LA Black Churches
Once again, Bill Clinton is ready to repent.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/02/bill-clinton-to-apologize_n_84573.html
On Sunday the former president is scheduled to visit black churches in South Central Los Angeles, where he's expected to offer a mea culpa to those who "dearly loved him" when he was their president, Rep. Diane Watson (D-Calif.) says. Watson, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus who has endorsed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), tells us she'll usher the former president to more than half a dozen churches in
her district where she says he needs to "renew his relationship" with congregants who were turned off by his racially tinged comments in the days leading up to and following the South Carolina primary. (Such as when Clinton compared Sen. Barack Obama's landslide victory to Jesse Jackson's wins in 1984 and 1988.)


http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/a-feisty-bill-

clinton-defends-nevada-lawsuit/
CLINTON ALLIES SUPPRESS THE VOTE IN NEVADA...
On Meet the Press on Sunday, Hillary Clinton said her campaign had nothing to do with a lawsuit--written about by Nation Editor Katrina vanden Heuvel--that threatens to prevent thousands of workers from voting in the Nevada caucus on Saturday.
Back in March, the Nevada Democratic Party agreed to set up caucus locations on the Vegas strip for low-income shift workers, many of them members of the state's influential Culinary Union, who commute long distances to work and wouldn't be able to get home in time to caucus. It was an uncontroversial idea until the Culinary Union endorsed Barack Obama and the Nevada State Education Association, whose top officials support Clinton, sued to shut down the caucus sites.
The Clinton camp played dumb until yesterday, when President Clinton came out in favor of the lawsuit.
Clinton's comments drew a heated response from D. Taylor, the head of Nevada's Culinary Union, on MSNBC's Hardball. "He is in support of disenfranchising thousands upon thousands of workers, not even just our members," Taylor said of Clinton. "The teachers union is just being used here. We understand that This is the Clinton campaign. They tried to disenfranchise students in Iowa. Now they're trying to
disenfranchise people here in Nevada, who are union members and people of color and women."

Rank-and-file members of Nevada's teachers union also come out against the lawsuit filed by their leadership. "We never thought our union and Senator Clinton would put politics ahead of what's right for our students, but that's exactly what they're doing," the letter stated. "As teachers, and proudmDemocrats, we hope they will drop this undemocratic lawsuit and help all Nevadans caucus, no matter which candidate they support."
The lawsuit's opponents make a persuasive point. Creating obstacles to voting is what the GOP does to Democrats, not what Democrats should be doing to other Democrats.


Clinton adviser steps down after drug use comments
Earlier Thursday, Clinton personally apologized to rival Obama for Shaheen's remarks.

Obama accepted her apology, according to David Axelrod, the top political strategist for the Obama campaign.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/13/clinton.obama/index.html


January 6, 2008, 5:18 pm
Edwards: No Conscience in Clinton Campaign
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/edwards-no-conscience-in-clinton-campaign/
By Julie Bosman
KEENE, N.H. – John Edwards angrily took on Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton at two news conferences in a row on Sunday, saying that her campaign “doesn’t seem to have a conscience.”



COMPTON, Calif. (AP) — Hillary Rodham Clinton and her campaign tried to mend ties to black voters Thursday when a key supporter apologized to her chief rival, Barack Obama, for comments that hinted at Obama's drug use as a teenager. The candidate herself, meanwhile, praised the Rev. Martin Luther King and promised to assist with the rebirth of this troubled, largely black city.

Bob Johnson, the founder of Black Entertainment Television, apologized
for comments he made at a Clinton campaign rally in South Carolina on Sunday that hinted at Obama's use of drugs as a teenager.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-01-17-

johnson-apology_N.htm?csp=34


Clinton Surrogate Compares Obama Ad to Nazi March

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080201/cm_thenation/45278988_1
Fri Feb 1, 2:23 PM ET
The Nation -- On a media conference call organized by the Hillary Clinton campaign today, Clinton surrogate Len Nichols compared an Obama health care ad to Nazis.
----------
Accusing political opponents of Nazism is an outrageous smear. Raising the specter of a Nazi march in response to a health care mailer that evokes the insurance industry is so absurd, it would be hard to take the attack seriously, were it not launched from a high profile national campaign conference call in this crucial stretch of the presidential race. And political observers know, of course, that the Clinton Campaign regularly arranges opportunities for surrogates to launch these kind of smears, which are later followed up with apologies. (See: Bob Johnson, Bill Shaheen, Bob Kerrey, and Francine Torge, to name the most recent offenders.) For his part, Nichols did not immediately return a call requesting further comment.
-------------------------
Len Nichols, Director of New America's Health Policy Program, stated, "For nearly 17 years I have worked tirelessly to reform our nation's struggling health system. Today my passion overwhelmed me. I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate. I am deeply sorry for any offense that my unfortunate comments may have caused.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg
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kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #72
85. If you want to give a response that means something I would suggest you directly address the points
raised instead of just falling back to you're an Obama supporter.
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Irishonly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
75. Your journal was hard for me to read
I haven't been watching all of the infighting the past couple of weeks as my daughter was seriously ill. In fact, she is ill enough she must finish high school on independent study and obviously, my focus has been else where.

None of the candidates I wanted made it. I would have been very happy with Edwards, Dodd, Biden or Kuchinich but one by one they dropped. I didn't change my support to either Clinton or Obama and became the democrat voting for the nominee in November.

I don't hate Clinton and I despise some of the bile I read about her and Bill on this site. On the other hand I also despise the bile written about Obama. For a time my ignore list was huge but then I took everyone off of it. I still really hate the attitude of some die hard supporters of both candidates and some of the antics appear to be more like elementary school children taunting that writing of adults. Supporters of Obama took his baby boomer comments to the extreme and I have had to work hard at separating the man from his more obnoxious supporters. It seems like a life time ago that democrats were happy with all of their candidates.

I also don't understand why this fight may be taken all the way to the convention. Democrats are giving the MSM what they want, the golden opportunity to display McCain as presidential and the democratic candidates as squabbling children. Blogs, hosts of shows and anyone that can get to a camera have jumped into the fray.

I shudder when I hear Kerry talk with an almost hatred of the Clintons. I shudder when either of the Clintons even speak of McCain. I get upset a lot and wonder if people would stop shouting for Clinton to quit and would let her exit gracefully if she would. Can she catch Obama on the popular vote? The polls tell us she carries more registered democrats and she says that is why she should be the nominee. Can Obama really carry the red states he has won in November? Can either of them mend the party if this feud goes all the way to the convention? I am one that doesn't understand why Hillary doesn't drop. It just doesn't look like she can catch him to me. I just wish democrats would stick to the line the people will choose and let it go. The MSM loves the infighting and exposes it every which way it can even bringing up old controversies. You would think they may be interested in McCain's financing, but it's more fun to make democrats look like squabbling children.

Your article was very well written and I have no disagreement with what you say. I will continue to get angry at the bashing of Dean, Edwards and Gore. I will continue to shudder when I read and hear disparaging comments toward either both by supporters and the candidates and pray this is over soon so the healing can begin.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #75
205. Here's hoping your daughter gets better soon!
NT!

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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
77. Another woman of a certain age here...
Yesterday when cleaning out an old file, I came across a magazine I must have purchased in 1996 - Biograph Presents Hillary Clinton, First Lady of Controversy. I greatly admired her then and thought she was what a First Lady should be. She opened up the possibilities for whoever follows in that position. I was very proud of her and would have undoubtedly have campaigned for that person I thought she was then.

I don't recognize this woman now. My husband and I were talking this morning and he mentioned something that we had talked about before... this political process is so toxic, so invasive of the candidate's privacy, so over-analytical of everything they have ever said and done... could it be, with the schedule she keeps, her lack of sleep and the stress she is under, have lost it mentally? Is she breaking down? Her behavior is not that of a mentally stable person. At the very least, her perspective is lost.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #77
201. Interesting point
It could just be stress - I have seen plenty of men and women, myself included, who react in a bizarre manner in stressful situations. Loss of perspective is a sign of stress. Mentally unstable, I don't think so.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #201
218. I've watched sane, thoughtful people have
nervous breakdowns that looked very much like her behavior. Spontaneous crying, public displays of anger... not the Hillary Clinton we first met in the 1990s is she? Mix together the lack of sleep and that incredible amount of stress...
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
78. There are indeed rules of engagement, which have been blatantly
ignored and violated by Hillary Clinton regarding her endorsement of McCain's patriotism and experience at the pointed expense of her Democratic opponent.

There are also intelligent, strongly-and-competently-written posts on DU, among which this poster stands mighty damn tall.

I like the analysis, Nance, in addition to agreeing with your points, and expect to be entertained watching Senator Clinton's increasingly delusional supporters attempt to defend against the points you raise here, and/or tell you that your personal trajectory from admiration and respect for an accomplished woman like Hillary Clinton to the current state of affairs is invalid.

I think it's damned valid.

There are those rules of engagement in politics and as you surgically indicate, integrity is the hinge.

Just an excellent read on events. Thank you.
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
80. K&R
I have always enjoyed your commentary, Nance, but your last couple of journals have definitely hit the nail on the head. Thanx.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
86. K&R
:kick:
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
88. Well put, as usual.
:applause:
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chapel hill dem Donating Member (212 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
90. There were several HRC supporters in obvious pain this morning at our Sunday AM coffee "club".
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 11:53 AM by chapel hill dem
The comments ranged from:
"she is just doing what the male POTUS candidates have done for 200 years -- you just aren't accustomed to seeing a Woman in that role..."
to
"If she is making stuff up, is everything else the R's have been saying for 16 years true?"

My favorite comment went something like this (paraphrased):
"When you are waging a world war, you use propaganda, disinformation, lies and trickery. We did in WWII and won. There are thick books on it. We are now in a world war over food, carbon, pollution, disease, religion, our privacy,..., EVERYTHING!

If HRC has to present a certain image to get our side elected, so be it. Letting McCain win will mean a new conservative SCOTUS, war in Iraq for 100 years and a veto on anything the Democratic-controlled House and Senate want to do to win this war.

She got caught in a lie, so what? It is part of the role she must play for us to win."
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #90
93. Well, these folks might like to elevate the role-playing thing to a hinge
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 11:53 AM by Old Crusoe
component, but past the idea that all public service prompts public scrutiny, all politicians are "role" players.

But some are clearly better at the public service part of the equation than others, and place the public service component over the public relations component.

These Hillary Clinton supporters in your coffee club forget that the men and women -- and children -- who died in WWII were not playing "roles." They were trying to live their lives and could not owing to the disastrous wills of their government. I agree with the one comment about "food, carbon, pollution, disease, etc." -- but see no evidence that Hillary Clinton holds the key to exclusive remediation of those conflicts. Chris Dodd and Bill Richardson and Dennis Kucinich also are aware of the severity of conflict in the world, and are not less qualified than Clinton to address them, even if they are males.

No wonder these folks were in pain. Their candidate advances no defendable positions and is spending her time and cash smearing her Democrtic opponent while role-playing with Richard Mellon Scaife, Rupert Murdock, and waving her hanky at John McCain.
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DirtyDawg Donating Member (594 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
92. And furthermore....
...I too am 'over' the Clintons. It's time for them to get out of our government and, indeed, our lives. Of course that absolutely goes for the Bushes - and always did. As I think back I think my belief in them was based more on the fact that I hated the Repugs with a passion and the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Watching Hillary's campaign now is like witnessing the end of a career of a long-time college basketball coach...who knew that unless his team could win some games in the conference tourney...and with 15 seconds left and down ten kept having his team foul and calling timeouts. It was pathetic to see and had to call out - 'Let it go coach...it's over'.

'Let it go Hillary...it's over.'
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
95. Rec 105!
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
97. Rec'd n/t
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
98. Here's a kick to celebrate the thoughtful evolution of a responsible
voter and good writer, criteria this OP meets with plenty to spare on both counts.
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DeeDeeNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
100. Very well stated
You mirror my thoughts and feelings exactly. She wasn't my first choice but I had always admired her and would not have a problem voting her. This line of yours says it all: "There comes a time when your own sense of self-worth is no longer measurable by your willingness to fight, but by your ability to accept loss with grace and dignity."
:kick:
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Umbram Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
102. Great post. (nt)
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Blue Fire Donating Member (588 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
103. Another bullseye, Nance.
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 12:38 PM by Blue Fire
I didn't throw my hat into any ring until the day HRC publicly supported Sen(ile) Same-O McLame as a better choice for president than her fellow Democratic candidate. On that day, as far as I'm concerned, she showed colors more closely associated with KKKarl Rove and * than progressive Americans. Which, I assume, we DUers are supposed to be!

Shortly after her uncalled for cheap shot on Obama, I created and wrote my first DU journal entry. Didn't get any play, and while nowhere near as eloquent as a Nance Rant, IMHO I thought I made a valid point.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
104. Kicked and highly recommended.
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F.Gordon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
105. You hate Hillary Clinton. Check. Got it.
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 12:50 PM by F.Gordon
:thumbsup:

Is this part of the 10-Step "Come to Obama" program?

If Obama gets the nom you can finish up with Step #10 and start a thread called... "The Wicked Witch is Dead" :eyes: I'm sure that one will get ya' lots of rec candy.

Edit? spell check is your friend
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Blue Fire Donating Member (588 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #105
109. How come whenever Hillary is called out for her despicable tactics by an OP
there are those who immediately spin it into an "I Hate Hillary" thread?
I hate her tactics and have dismissed her as a credible Democratic presidential candidate because of them, but hate doesn't come to mind. Pity, perhaps, since she has apparently found it necessary for her candidacy to sink into Rovian mud. And angry for the damage it's doing to our party. But no hate. I reserve that for certain rethuglicans.


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Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #109
114. the line between HRC and the (R) is getting thinner and thinner
lately it's looking quite anorexic. Maybe soon we'll have to call her H(R)C.
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F.Gordon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #109
123. Ahhh.... because it's true
:shrug:

And your post has absolutely no "scorn" or "contempt" in it. :eyes: Check out the little leech that attached itself to you down below. I can really feel the "love" :P
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Blue Fire Donating Member (588 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #123
127. You can imagine whatever you wish, F. Gordon.
But your own credibility within this debate is badly tarnished by your own bitter and vitriolic comments.

I'm not saying there aren't those who go overboard in their zeal to demonize Hillary, and I can't say she hasn't earned it. But not every poster critical of her tactics espouses hating her. She is, after all, still a Democrat by party affiliation. But it's up to her to lift her campaign up and out of the Rovian mud and re-earn the tremendous amount of respect she's lost.
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F.Gordon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #127
135. Work with me. It's all about 'Burning Bridges'
:hi:

This GDP Loose Stool Splatter Fest has infested all of DU. I can't tell the difference between the Right and the Left anymore..... because there is none.

I'm sorry that I didn't "fall in line" and just K&R :eyes: this thread but I've noticed a pattern of hypocrisy growing from post to post.

Ahhh... go Obama...
:shrug:


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Blue Fire Donating Member (588 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #135
140. It seems so, unfortunately, for too many.
Yes, I support Obama, but I wasn't solidly in his camp until Hillary publicly stated McLame would be a better president than her fellow Democrat. For myself, that was progressive blasphemy, and it will take an incredible effort on her part to convince me she is worthy of the Democratic nomination. But if she does get the nomination, she gets my vote, albeit with regrets. Not because of any bad feelings for her personally, but because of how low her campaign has stooped. It was my hope that our candidates vying for the nomination would engage in a spirited yet civilized debate for our support in such a manner that whoever got the nomination also got the whole hearted support of the entire party. But I fear we're too far beyond that now.

I would not want anybody to switch their support based simply on my own view of this campaign. If you're heart and soul behind Hillary, by all means give it your all. We are, after everything is said and done, on the same team!


:dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :dem:
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #135
141. Perhaps you haven't seen the her endorsement by yet another winger?
Let me point you in the Right direction -

Richard Mellon Scaife

Hillary, reassessed

By Richard M. Scaife
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Sunday, March 30, 2008
Hillary Clinton walked into a Pittsburgh Tribune-Review conference room last Tuesday to meet with some of the newspaper's editors and reporters and declared, "It was so counterintuitive, I just thought it would be fun to do."
<snip>
Does all this mean I'm ready to come out and recommend that our Democrat readers choose Sen. Clinton in Pennsylvania's April 22 primary?

No -- not yet, anyway. In fairness, we at the Trib want to hear Sen. Barack Obama's answers to some of the same questions and to others before we make that decision.

But it does mean that I have a very different impression of Hillary Clinton today than before last Tuesday's meeting -- and it's a very favorable one indeed.

Call it a "counterintuitive" impression.

Richard M. Scaife is the owner of the Tribune-Review.


More evidence that she is moving further and further rightwards. In case you're not aware Scaife is the guy who pushed for impeachment and accused Mrs Clinton of the murder of Vince Foster. He's part of the "great right wing conspiracy" that she spoke about back in the 90's. And now she's cozying up to both him and Rupert Murdoch, who as another poster pointed out, benefited greatly from the Telecommunications Act that Bill signed. I'm uncomfortable with the whole "guilt by association" thing, but getting pal-ly with these two and endorsing McCain is just a bit much, don't you think?
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IndependentDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
110. K&R-- its always a pleasure to read your posts. n/t
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
111. There must be panic going through the Hillary camp -- they lost Nancy Greggs!
I have admired the way you have tried to keep us together Nance. This is an indicator that things have gone too far. I was never a Hillary fan. Personal feelings aside, I never felt she had the "vision thing," that makes for great Democratic leaders. And that is only one of my objection to Hillary, though I would have voted for her, were she the candidate.

Anyway, as usual, you say things so well.

--IMM
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
112. "In short, it’s about integrity ..." In_Deed.
Peace,
Bob
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BumRushDaShow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
113. K&R
:kick:
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kid a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
116. great post - thanks! k & r
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
119. K&R - I wish I could add something but you nailed it. n/t
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forintegrity Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
121. Very well said
I feel the same way and am very disappointed. She has stooped very low when she should have dropped out.
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mcollier Donating Member (887 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. The end is near...
The ReTardLicans party is over... I mean over...
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
129. I agree totally - I had hoped she would be our next President for years - & then came the truth.....
All the stuff about the Lincoln Bedroom money contributions from the big cats and the Dubai, East Indian, and Saudi deals that Bill has made. Let alone NAFTA and the 1996 Communications Act that made Murdoch one of the Hillary's supporters. This stuff is all available on the web and at my Journal site if anyone cares to look.

There are many stories about the Clinton's have done to gain money for campaigns and one of them is coming up later this year. It is the Paul v. Clinton trial where he says he gave her over a million dollars that was not reported. A lot of her supporters will deny this and say there is nothing to it but the FBI and the JD have evidence that says there just might be something there. The trial date is to be set on April, 25, 2008.

There is a trail here of things that like you say just make it all come down to integrity. Along with the white lies of the last 10 years that we know of and the under handed deals that we may never know the truth on. Again I truthfully had hoped that Hillary would come away from Bill and make her own way but she chose to say she was with him every step of the way. To me that was the start of her problems. We all know that Obama is not perfect. There may still be some things that come out about him later, but if it doesn't get any worse then it is now I don't see how he can be defeated in November! I have studied him and his ideals and background and I stand proud to support him!



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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
131. Awesome!
"I am truly heartsick that the Hillary Clinton I admired for years is gone – or, more sadly, perhaps never existed other than in my own imagination."

Perfect!
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
134. better judgement next time.
"never existed other than in my own imagination."
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
138. Hillary might actually
Hillary might actually be ahead of where she is now if she had not engaged in these statements of personal destruction. I suspect she would be.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #138
144. In delegate count, I mean. nt
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Beregond2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
139. HRC
My disgust with Hillary began the day she announced her candidacy. It has always been perfectly obvious to anyone with half a brain that she never had the slightest chance of being elected. 18 years of unrelenting right-wing propaganda can't be erased. For her to risk this country being subjected to four more years of Republican rule was unconsciounable. Her descent into the depths of diry politicing has come as no surprise, given that her whole candidacy has been a manifestation of phenomenol arrogance and selfishness.
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williesgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
142. As a feminist who fought hard every rung up the ladder, it kills me that our first female candidate
for President has behaved in such an atrocious manner. I was thrilled when she announced her candidacy and even in spite of her vote for the war, was prepared to support her. But her two endorsements of McSame against a fellow Dem candidate, and a good one at that, along with her her bullshit "I take him at his word" about the Muslim issue (and what makes being a Muslim a mortal sin in this country?) and then not only her failure to defend BO when attacked due to his minister's comments but join him in the offensive against such attacks, has put me in Obama's camp. I'm glad I don't live in NY, because I doubt I could even vote for her reelection to the Senate after all that's happened.

I find her a shame to all women who have integrity and work hard to honestly achieve their goals, no matter what they may be. rec'd
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Kare Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
143. Well said....
I had no issues with Clinton in the beginning. Like many people I wanted some one else (Edwards, now Obama) but I wouldn't have been terribly upset about a Hillary presidency. That has all changed.

Like you say, she crossed the line.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
148. Excellent OP. K & R.
:thumbsup:
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
152. This attitude is a MSM creation. I went to a rally for Hillary in Louisville
yesterday. She gave clearcut and substantial plans for Iraq withdrawal, student college loans, universal health care, job creation, tax fairness and many etcs. While she impassionately denounced Bush and his ilk and policies and struck out at McCain a few times, she never mentioned Obama at all. She never criticized him or his ideas; she told us what she would do. It is probable that Obama will end up with the nomination, but the more Obama supporters disparage Hillary and her campaign the more the number of women (especially) and men will grow who will not vote for Obama. I will, but more reluctantly than I would have. I know from reading the progressive blogs the full details of GOPer evil, but many do NOT. They have not been paying attention; Obama is smart enough to recognize this. He invites Hill to stay in the race as long as she wishes...which is the American way. In addition despite the media, most of us do not see the numbers as out of Hillary's reach. I was actually quite astonished that Obama decided to run in '08. Being a young man, he could have let us have our woman pres and then run in '16 with much more experience. He created this situation so why should the woman candidate opt out?
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #152
164. I admire and respect your support of your candidate ...
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 06:23 PM by NanceGreggs
However, I do have to take exception to this kind of thinking, which sadly comes up too often here:

"Being a young man, (Obama) could have let us have our woman pres and then run in '16 with much more experience. He created this situation so why should the woman candidate opt out?"

As I've said upthread, the presidential nomination is a matter of supporting the candidates we think are best suited to the job. It has nothing to do with "letting us have our woman pres".

That implies that the voters should be supporting Hillary on the basis of her gender, instead of more serious considerations. It is not a matter of it being "a woman's turn" or a "black man's turn", and, IMHO, those things should not come into play when selecting the next POTUS - or any other elected representative.

Obama is not required - nor is anyone else - to run when others deem it appropriate. He chose to run at this time, and apparently the majority of voters are in agreement with his decision to do so.

As for Obama having "created this situation, so why should the woman candidate op out", that again implies that he somehow didn't have a right to run against Hillary because she's a woman. And by doing so, exactly what "situation" did he create? Are you saying that no one should have run against her, because it was "her turn"?

The situation Hillary now finds herself in was (a) "created" by the fact that more people have voted for Obama in this process than have voted for her, and (b) her own behavior, her own statements, and her own fabrications that have now been exposed as lies.

This idea that Hillary was somehow entitled to the presidency because she is a woman - and the will of the majority be damned - is truly abhorrent on so many levels.

Last time I checked, we still have a democracy, which means the voters decide. And that decision is being made as we speak by the voters who are in the majority; those who favour Obama over Hill.

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trickyguy Donating Member (461 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
156. She took the low road and Obama took the high. That simple
:nopity:
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vanlassie Donating Member (826 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
157. Kicking sadly
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mckara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
158. Campaigns Bring Out the Worst in Some People
Hillary fell on her sword as the world saw blind ambition as the motivating force behind her desire to "serve the people."

McCain appears more morally bankrupt than Clinton! The Arizona Apostate totally transformed into a used car salesman in order to win the endorsement of his party.

Sad, sad, sad for both Clinton and McCain!
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
166. K & R
:thumbsup:
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madmunchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
170. I'm glad that you finally are seeing the light and showing some strength by bringing it to the
forefront. I, too, have been greatly disappointed by HRC and have almost done a 180 on her with my opinion.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #170
178. I posted this OP with great reluctance ...
... because kicking a Democrat when they're already down - even if as a result of their own behaviour - is not my style.

However, the conduct of Hillary's campaign, and of the candidate herself, has blatantly crossed the line between fighting-to-win and winning-at-all- costs.

And as someone else pointed out here, I, too, believe that this would have been a much closer race if Hillary had run a clean campaign, focusing on her experience, her accomplishments, and her future plans for the nation.

Instead, she is focused on destroying her opponent, without any regard to what damage she is doing to the party as a direct consequence - and more to the point of my OP, without any regard to the consequences to her own credibility.

It is truly sad - I've always thought she was much smarter than she has turned out to be.
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madmunchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #178
191. I used to passionately defend her and Bill. I used to admire her and respect her.
I became so resentful when the R-Wing attack machine mercilessly went after them, her especially. Now, though, watching things over the last few years, I have become more and more dismayed by the Clintons. Right now I feel like a fool for buying into "them" and disregarding some of the "characterizations" expressed by the Right many years ago. I especially resent HRC supposedly being a woman that we are all to be proud of. I don't want her representing our sex and being the poster child for the successful women, I am frankly embarrassed by her. AND I cannot believe how they are destroying the Clinton legacy, at least in the shorterm that is. The respect held in general for the office of POTUS is really being dragged thru the mud w/ Bill and Hillary's behaviors.

Speaking only in positives about the Democratic candidates does us no good. If we cannot be honest about our own candidates and ourselves then we are part of the problem.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
171. "never existed other than in my own imagination" nails it pretty well.
I used to love clinton, but her lies and broken ethics killed that love years ago.

Then I found out what she really stood for, and was glad I awoke.

Great post.

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odelisk8 Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
174. listen up!
the lady is speaking. Wonderfully put.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #174
181. Welcome to the DU conversation ...
... odelisk8 - and a personal shout-out to a fellow New Yorker!

:hi:
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davidlynch Donating Member (461 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
183. k&r n/t
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ladym55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
189. And a few thoughts after reading the WHOLE thread (so far)
First, I am supposed to be Hillary's prime demographic ... a woman of a certain age who knows what it's like to be sexually harassed on the job (back before it became illegal) and what it was like to be paid about 2/3rd's as my male counterparts (but THEY have families to support) ... So I really, really like seeing women in positions of power.

That being said ... Early in the primary campaign that never ends I was proud of ALL the candidates. Hillary was not my first choice because I was not happy with her vote on Iraq. On issues I resonated more with Dennis Kucinich and with John Edwards. But I was okay with everybody.

As the Ohio primary approached, it was time for me to decide. I was starting to follow the candidates' stump speeches carefully, and still I was okay with both candidates.(John Edwards was gone.) Then Hillary lost Wisconsin, and all hell broke loose. I got the front row seat on the feigned outrage (Shame on you, Barack Obama!), the 3 am phone call, the games with NAFTA, etc., etc., etc. I made my decision. I went from liking both, to preferring Obama, to Hillary is offending me badly, to I-will-vote-for-her-in-November if needed, but will leave the Democratic Party after almost 30 years because I will no longer be able to tell the elephants' tails from the donkey tails.

I'm not a frequent poster, but have long admired Nance's writing. I'm very sad to read here that Hillary supporters need to take cheap shots at her because she is raising the same questions and same concerns that turned me off Hillary.

Hillary has been LOSING support with her campaign, and that's not a good thing.


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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #189
190. Thanks for weighing-in, ladym55!
As I've often said here, I loved First Lady Hillary, I admired NY Senator Clinton - it was Campaign Hillary that put me off from day one.

And that is not a fault of hers; that was simply my personal preference for Obama and his message, as opposed to her message.

However, things - sadly so - have changed. As someone said upthread, sometimes campaigns bring out the worst in people. And this campaign has brought out the absolute worst in Hillary Clinton.

As much as I admired her in the past, I did not place her on a pedestal. I realize that all politicians, when all is said and done, are just people, complete with the kinds of flaws that plague us all.

But when Hillary chose to go the route of winning at all costs, despite the consequences for all Democrats, she lost me - not as a supporter, because I never was one. But more importantly as a voter who will, in future, never see her the same way again.
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mcollier Donating Member (887 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #190
196. What a loser
The country needs someone with new and fresh ideas, not a rotten old McNutt-case... Greedy old politicans with little regard for the future of our country and its children need to take an early retirement...

Raise your hand if you want to take more control of the future of our great country..... Take a stand if you want to build a new coalition of American leaders closely tied to the interest of the People. Vote for Barack Obama if you want Washington to change from the ground up with a renewed focus on helping grow, strenghten and protect the lives and dreams of the American People.


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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
193. Integrity.
I've felt for some time that Hillary, if she ever had any, has jettisoned it in pursuit of the almighty win.


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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
194. On the whole Nancy I agree with you.
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 09:45 PM by ooglymoogly
Having been an Edwards Supporter, I hadn't really paid much attention to Obama but once the corporate media had eliminated Edwards in the same way they had obliterated Kucinich, I had began to try to find my way between the two of the remaining candidates knowing nothing of Obama but not having a good taste in my mouth about Hill for her war vote and the bankruptcy matter. The deal was cinched after her comments on McCain when I blew a gasket. My comments on that, on this site were called over the top. I have, since Edwards left the race, began to understand that Obama is the right candidate at the right time in history to in fact make history on many levels and will support him until he wins.....or by crook loses at which time I will hold my nose and vote for Hill who is at least by half better than any pug. Sorry to be so long winded but for me the older I get the more hot air I have to blow just to stay cool. Oh who am I kidding, I am just a blowhard and have been since the beginning of DU that gave us all a soapbox.
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Politicalboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
197. Here's a petition to sign
To tell Hillary it's time to GET OUT!

http://www.jabberwonk.com/flinker.cfm?cliid=e40l0
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
202. Hillary drove me away
Edited on Mon Mar-31-08 01:10 AM by Wetzelbill
I remember 6 years ago, I hoped with all my heart she would run in '04. Even after her Iraq War vote, I still loved her. I still do in many ways, but watching her triangulate on everything over the years when we needed somebody to make a big stand was disheartening. I voted for Kucinich in '04 and I am proud to have voted for John Kerry in the GE. I supported DK again for the last 4 years, and was prepared to vote for him when he dropped out before my primary. I would have voted for Edwards but he dropped out then too. I couldn't decide between HRC or Obama, so I didn't vote at all. I like lots of things about Barack, but I was having trouble getting behind a few of his proposals, such as not requiring a mandate in his health care plan. I am a little unsure of my position on that anyway, I would prefer one, but not if it stopped an otherwise good bill from being passed. Anyway, I liked Obama on foreign policy a touch better, HRC on domestic issues a touch better, so I sat that one out.

Then Obama went on an 11 win tear in the primaries. I still basically thought of them as thisclose, and I maybe leaned towards him just a bit, but, like I said, not enough to have decided to vote for either. I was turned off by some Obama supporters, and didn't like how the media seemed to jump on the Clintons for everything. On the flip side, I didn't like how the Clintons seemed to attack Obama for certain things, like his Reagan comments or his hope/inspiration theme, but I also didn't like the way people in turn attacked the Clintons for their reactions to that stuff. All in all, I felt none of it was out of bounds, it is a campaign after all, however, once Hillary was essentially beaten - and she is don't fool yourself - she started to hit below the belt. The McCain endorsement stuff was the kicker. That was reprehensible. The attacking of people like Bill Richardson for endorsing Obama was distasteful too. But her campaign has a history of facillitating some real low blows, like forwarding the Obama/Muslim email, the sly remarks about his drug use, and her saying Obama wasn't a Muslim... "as far as I know." She keeps trying to perpetuate the Wright issue too. Then her Bosnia and Northern Ireland BS stories. She just got to be too much. It's hurt her standing, and as long as she stays in the race and keeps doing the same stuff, it'll hurt her even more. It's one thing to stay in a race and put forth your vision, it's another thing to stay in a race to kneecap a guy. Kucinich stayed in the race four years ago, long after he couldn't win, but he did it to speak out agains the war and promote progressive policies nobody else was addressing. Nader runs for president for that very reason. Hillary wasn't the long shot those guys are, but she still has virtually no shot to win, at this point, she's in the race so that she can pick up the pieces if Barack gets hit with a scandal or something. She isn't doing what any male politician would do, that's a farce. She is wholly selfish in this regard, and it's a sad thing to see.
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
207. Before this disappears, I just want to say this.
You are a leader on this board. You have a bully pulpit possibly like no one else here.

The people on this board are divided. There are some good, righteous, loving Clinton supporters here. They are getting the shit beat out of them at DU. They are intimidated to the point that only the most hard to hear are left.

I would only ask that you recognize your power here and use it wisely.

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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #207
209. I don't consider myself to have any 'power' ...
... here or elsewhere, cbayer.

And I do not discount for a minute the passion, the loyalty, or the sense of purpose demonstrated by the many Hillary supporters among us.

However, I am also aware that when a candidate crosses the line and endorses a Republican over a fellow Democrat, it should not go unnoticed, nor should it be chalked up to "politics as usual".

In the same vein, when a Democratic contender feels that her personal ambition should trump the will of the people, the party, and the good of the nation, it is time to speak up.

And so I did.
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #209
211. You do have power. Well deserved power.
There is an issue of sexism here that needs to be put on the table before this is over. The same way racism had to be put on the table.

She is walking down a path that none have traveled. I want to see her take it as far as it will go. Win or lose, she will have opened a previously sealed door. I thank her for my daughters.

I don't share your view of Clinton as an individual. She's the first woman to play this man's game with any success and it makes a lot of people very uncomfortable.

Thanks for your response. I do appreciate it.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #211
230. A few scant months ago ...
Edited on Mon Mar-31-08 03:45 PM by NanceGreggs
... I would have agreed that she should 'take this as far as it will go'. Up until that time, she was a true role model for young women; tenacious, articulate, intelligent, energetic - the list goes on and on.

However, over the last few months, she has chosen to fight dirty, insist that rules be changed so as to be more favourable to her position, dismissed her fellow Democrat as being nothing more than a speech, allowed Carville to go unchastized when he publicly denounced Richardson as "Judas" for not endorsing her, run up debt with small business owners who might never see those debts paid, grossly exaggerated her experience, and out-and-out lied about her trip to Bosnia - and, when caught in that lie, dismissed it as mis-speaking, instead of taking responsibility.

This is NOT the role model I want my daughter to look to as an example of how a woman should conduct herself when the going gets rough.

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dougolat Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
210. Thanks, well put, as usual
I blame the cynical 'operatives' behind the 3am red phone ad for much of Hill's fall from grace; I still balk at Hill-haters: I just got back from hearing Bill speak, and there was a guy with a sign saying "I miss-spoke ---I lied", who didn't believe me when I told him part of reason people objected to his sign was the memory of the miss-spent $80 million trying to oust Bill, and the ditto-head cries of "he lied! he lied! that's it for him! he lied!"
(my sign was for Bill: "Iran-Contra thugs
you let them go
Now look what they've done!" stood out in wind and snow for three hours for 2 chances to tweak his conscience. Hill-hater said it was a waste of time because he doesn't have one; I disagree)
I accept that Beiden de-fanged the bankruptcy bill a bit.
I've seen Obama three times now ( always impressive!) but still see him as the lesser of evils.
Remember the heady first 'debates' when we had so many candidates, any one of whom could do? Well, we still need to win by a landslide in order to come out ahead in the official tally, what with the caged voting lists, the unfair precinct set-ups, and the questionable but unverifiable, proprietary and partisan machines used most everywhere. (The New Hampshire primary wasn't clean!)
It's landslide or McSame-who-doesn't-know-Shi-ite ,folks.
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NM Independent Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 02:57 AM
Response to Original message
212. I hate to say this, but...
...ditto. LOL.

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cleveramerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 04:17 AM
Response to Original message
215. Magnificent post!
Clinton fatigue defined.
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 05:03 AM
Response to Original message
217. Very disappointing
Sorry Nance - but I think you are being unfair to Hillary.

First - I don't think she ever meant to say that Barack Obama - in your words - "was to be dismissed as nothing more than a speech".

Maybe her choice of words was not the best, but Hillary was saying that in a general election match-up against John McCain it would be very difficult for Barack Obama to compete with McCain on issues of national security and readiness to be Commander-in-Chief of the US Armed Forces.

Hillary was saying that she is more experienced and therefore more qualified to be Commander-in-Chief. She was (more or less) close to the center of decision-making during the 8 years of the Clinton-Gore Administration. Since November 2000 she has served more than 7 years as a member of the US Senate, and since 2003 as a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

I have seen national polls which show that John McCain would have a huge lead over Barack Obama on the issues of national security and dealing with the situation in Iraq. The same polls (see Rasmussen Reports) show that Hillary Clinton is trusted by more voters than Barack Obama on these issues.

It also happens to be the case that Hillary Clinton is the candidate that most voters trust to fix the economy (more than McCain or Obama). This was also a finding of polling done by Rasmussen Reports.

I think Hillary was trying to say that the GOP, the McCain Campaign and the media would find it easy to portray Barack Obama as relatively inexperienced in relation to national security issues and therefore less qualified to take over the role of Commander-in-Chief.

Hillary is trying to make the case that in the general election she would be a stronger candidate than Barack Obama, when it comes to going up against John McCain on all these issues - including the economy and national security. Hillary is "in it to win it".

Second - there is nothing wrong with Hillary saying that there needs to be a solution that would allow the voters of Florida and Michigan to be represented at the Democratic National Convention in Denver. It is not fair to punish Democratic voters in these crucial battleground states for decisions made by a small number of politicians. That would be "collective punishment". Look it up!

Third - I see nothing wrong with recognising the role of the automatic, ex officio or so-called "super" delegates, under the rules of the Democratic Party since around 1982. They are not obliged to vote for the candidate with the most "pledged" delegates nationwide. Just like John Kerry, Ted Kennedy and Deval Patrick - who will all be members of the Massachusetts delegation to the Democratic Convention - are not obliged to vote for the candidate who won the Democratic Primary in the State of Massachusetts. All of the superdelegates are expected to exercise their own judgement and vote for the candidate they believe to be best.


It is fair to say that Hillary is ambitious for herself and for her country. It is OK for you to disagree with her positions and even to say that you believe Barack Obama to be more qualified for the Presidency.

But it is not fair to say that Hillary is "bitter" just because she refuses to quit while there is still a chance for her to win the nomination (however small you percieve that possibility to be).
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #217
219. And that is how she may win the nomination...
"All of the superdelegates are expected to exercise their own judgement and vote for the candidate they believe to be best."

She may win the nomination. And the party may lose the support finally of the people. Seems to be the fate for both parties. Perhaps it's time to get rid of both parties. But to Hillary's supporters, that doesn't seem to matter any more than it matters to her. To hell with the party, to hell with the people. She is to be president. By hook or by crook or by party "rules" that were put in place solely to override the people if the occasion arose where the "leadership" decided the people's choice was not their choice. And that is the most offensive thing in all of this. Offensive to all but those who support Hillary Clinton.

But of course those who do, as published reports have made quite clear, aren't really interested in the party or the people either.


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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #219
222. Hillary can win the popular vote
Even if you don't count Florida and Michigan, Hillary has a strong possibility to catch up with and overtake Obama in the total number of votes cast in all the primaries and caucuses.

See this analysis in the latest issue of US News & World Report:
www.usnews.com/blogs/barone/2008/3/28/projection-clinton-wins-popular-vote-obama-wins-delegate-count.html
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #217
226. Good points you make....thanks for taking the time...n/t
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #217
229. I'm sorry, Apollo11, but on this topic ...
... we will have to agree to disagree.

I'm sure you are as familiar with Hill's quote re McCain and Obama as everyone else. She didn't compare herself to McCain; she compared herself and McCain as both being more qualified than her fellow Dem, Obama. You can spin this to death; she said it, and it was wrong.

I keep seeing posts here about "what she meant to say was" - this is a highly intelligent, politically savvy, exceptionally articulate woman. Why do her remarks need clarification, parsing, or explanations? She is more than capable of speaking for herself - and her words are her words.

Re FL and MI - Hillary pledged, along with the other candidates, to adhere to the rules with regard to these two states. She only "realized" how unfair those rules were after she decided that she needed those votes. If polls showed that were those two states counted or allowed a do-over, Obama would win both of them handily, do you honestly believe that she would be insisting they be counted? She even suggested that MI be counted as-is, knowing that Obama wasn't even on the ballot. Does that sound like someone who wants things to be done fairly?

As for her continuing to stay in the race, I personally wouldn't care if she kept campaigning into the next decade - if she were running a clean campaign. But she's not.

As for being unfair to her, I think I have been more than courteous in the OP. I didn't bring up the fact that she owes money all over the place, that she is stiffing small business operators while she continues to stay in four star hotels, that she has lied - not mis-spoke or mis-remembered, but lied - about her Bosnia trip, and her other claims to "experience" that have been grossly exaggerated or proven false altogether.

We can talk forever about the polls showing people trust Hillary more than Obama on any number of things. But that only begs the question: If more people want/like/need/trust Hillary than Obama, why is she losing?
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #229
236. Thanks for taking the time to respond
Edited on Tue Apr-01-08 02:37 AM by Apollo11
I still think it is unfair to pretend that Hillary said John McCain would make a better President of the US than Barack Obama.

The implication of her comment is clearly that she believes herself to be a stronger candidate than Obama, in the context of a general election in which the GOP candidate will be John McCain.

"Now I think you will be able to imagine many things Sen. McCain will be able to say. He has never been the President. He will put forth his experience. I will put forth my experience. Sen. Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002."

However, I think Hillary was surprised by the reaction to her remark - from Nancy Pelosi and others - and I don't expect she will say the same again (even if she still believes it was a fair comparison to draw).

As for Hillary losing, allow me to list the States where Hillary received more votes than Barack Obama:

Arizona
Arkansas
California
Florida
Massachusetts
Michigan*
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
Ohio
Oklahoma
Rhode Island
Tennessee
Texas

* even assuming that everyone who voted "uncommitted" would vote for Obama.

Reading some of the posts by Obama supporters here on DU, you would think he was winning everywhere.
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Araxen Donating Member (826 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
221. Well said - nt
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
227. Would you marry me Nance Greggs?
I'm sure my wife wouldn't mind!
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #227
231. Sorry, but I just asked my husband ...
... and he said I'm not allowed.

(Besides, I'm probably old enough to be your mother!)

:hi:
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