Good op-ed by Howard Dean on the gay marriage issue and MA

[madfloridian]

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/05/17/vermonts_lessons_on_gay_marriage/

SNIP..."IN THE SPRING of 2000, Vermont became the first state in the union not only to recognize same-sex partnerships, but to make sure that every single right outlined in the Vermont Constitution and Vermont laws applied equally to heterosexual and homosexual Vermonters. Every right but one. Gay and lesbian Vermonters do not have the right to call their unions marriage. The fallout was the least civil public debate in the state in over a century, since the "wets" and "dries" battled in the middle of the 1800s. Death threats were made, epithets were used, not only on the streets and in the general stores but on the floors of both the Senate and the House, as the bill was being debated. Otherwise respectable church leaders railed against homosexuals and not so respectable ones organized political action committees vowing to oust any legislator who voted for the bill. Five Republican members of the House lost their seats in primaries. In the general election, Democrats lost control of the House for the first time in 14 years, as the Republicans piled up nearly a 20-vote majority. My own race, for a sixth term, was the most difficult in my career."

SNIP..."Four years later, we wonder what the fuss was all about. Civil unions were never an issue in Vermont in the 2002 election and will not be this fall. The intensity of anger and hate has disappeared, replaced by an understanding that equal rights for groups previously denied them has no negative effect on those of us who have always enjoyed those rights. My marriage has not become weaker....."

SNIP..."While it is true that the Bible (largely the Old Testament) condemns homosexuality in a few places, it equally condemns eating shellfish. Jesus never mentions homosexuality. The bottom line is this: America is grappling with the discarding of old stereotypes about a group of people who have been part of our country since America has been a country. This is a painful process. Massachusetts hopefully will not have as hard a time as Vermont did, but the struggle is a real one, and will be painful for institutions as well as individuals. All Americans are diminished when we allow stereotyping to dismiss the worth of fellow Americans. All Americans are stronger, and the nation is stronger, when we judge people by who they are, not what they are....."

[Melodybe]

1. Wow, good stuff. I love Howard Dean, he is one of my heros.

[UnAmericanJoe]

2. I still hope to one day be able to vote for that man

for President.

[mzmolly]

16. Oh, I long for that day myself.

*sigh*

[CTLawGuy]

3. Ahh

A man with real courage!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

4. Dean never mentions why he opposes gay marriage

or what it is about gay marriage that makes him feel 'uncomfortable'.

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

5. Oh, come on, here. The others don't really address it.

http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/6607

This is his statement after he signed the bill. It is open and honest. He signed it even after threats, he writes a good editorial, intelligent, and compassionate. So let's criticize someone who led the way. What a shame.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

6. I made a simple statement of fact - I don't know why you are disputing it.

But since you are taking issue with my comment, maybe you can answer:


Why does Dean oppose gay marriage? And what is it about gay marriage that makes Dean feel 'uncomfortable'?

[madfloridian]

7. Ask him. Email the DFA site.

Why does it make the others uncomfortable? I only know he took risks for this. Have the others? I think Kerry opposed it, didn't he?

A lot of people may have issues with gay marriage, but they defend the right to have it. Don't you think?

[madfloridian]

8. I did not dispute what you said. I just responded.

.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

9. Yes, you responded with an off-topic post

about civil unions.

[madfloridian]

10. I was discussing Dean's courage, not arguing.

He fought for an issue with courage. I did not mean to be "off-topic", but why does Kerry oppose it? Has he said?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

11. The thread is about gay marriage, not Dean's alleged courage.

Both Dean and Kerry oppose gay marriage. And I reserve my right to remind people of that indisputable fact.


Many here get upset when I remind people of this. Oh well.

[madfloridian]

12. I started this thread about Dean's editorial. I made no comment.

Actually I started this thread about Dean's editorial, and I was not critical at all. Not of anyone. The thread was commending an editorial. You need to confront Dean with this issue, not me.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

13. Yes and I pointed out that in an editorial about gay marriage

Dean didn't have the courage to mention that he is opposed to gay marriage.


You need to confront Dean with this issue, not me.

Next time I'm talking to Dean I'll be sure to bring it up. :eyes:

[madfloridian]

14. He said once it made him "uncomfortable", as you quoted.

That is being honest, isn't it?

[mzmolly]

18. Problem is Kerry has no clear answer as to why... Dean does.

:hi:

I try so hard not to trash Kerry, so very hard, but then certain people show up in certain threads to *trash* Dean and make comparisons??????????

You leave me no choice but to examine Kerry by opening old wounds. Dean is direct and has clear positions. I will refrain from further comment for obvious reasons.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

19. They have the same exact position.

[mzmolly]

21. But, Kerry doesn't articulate it very well.

;)

[dsc]

22. If you are going to lecture people about telling the whole truth

you might try doing so yourself. Dean opposed an amendment to Vermont Constitution that would have banned same sex marriage. Kerry supported one to the Massachusetts constitution. Those aren't the same position. One is refusing to enact same sex marriage the other is banning it. Again, you are the one who is lecturing us on telling the truth.

[madfloridian]

23. Thanks, dsc, I just found something about that.

I had forgotten that. Thanks for clarifying.
:hi:

[mzmolly]

24. *This* I did not know.

:(

[mzmolly]

17. Yes he does. He says that marriage is a *religious* ceremony and that

he is in favor of the seperation of Church and State. He doesn't believe that the states should mandate what the Churches do in this regard. He does feel that the States should recognize equal *rights* thus the decision to have "Civil Unions" in Vermont.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

20. I meant that

he didn't mention it in this article. In this article on gay marriage, he didn't mention that he is opposed to gay marriage or why. I apologize if I gave the impression that I meant that he never ever explained the reason for his opposition.

[flpoljunkie]

15. Thank you, Howard Dean, for a terrific op-ed on lessons on gay marriage.

I salute you! I would add that we must not amend our venerable U.S. Constitution to take away any rights of our citizens.