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Great... we had a front-runner with a clear path to the presidency, but race fucked it up

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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:15 PM
Original message
Great... we had a front-runner with a clear path to the presidency, but race fucked it up
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 02:09 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
We had a front-runner with a clear path to the presidency, but then a candidate who would do anything to win intentionally split the Party in two, destroying our chances at the White House.

The weapon? Race. It's oldest trick in the book... convince members of an ethnic group that they should not vote for the "different" one. It was not enough to just say, "vote your race." The different one had to be demonized with lies and distortions until she was seen as not merely the lesser choice, but actually EVIL.

Whoops! Did I say "she"?
African-American support for Clinton has collapsed, falling to 55% in the general election match-up. Obama, on the other hand, earns solid support from African-American voters but attracts only 36% of white voters in a match-up with McCain.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll
Yes, we have seen the most amazing act of political party suicide since the Civil War.

We used to have a front-runner who was 65% to win the presidency and who was beloved by African-American voters. Her husband was the most popular President with African-Americans--even more than JFK--and she was roughly as popular. White people didn't like her so much, but black people loved Hillary Clinton. Black support was supposed to be her glide path to the nomination.

Then Obama entered the race, and a funny thing happened. AA voters showed a level of maturity and enlightened self-interest that put the behavior of white voters to shame. In large numbers, they declined to chose based on skin color, and instead choose on policy and trust and track record.

All polling showed that Obama was attracting a lot of white voters, and Hillary was getting the black vote. It was a hopeful circumstance. Doctor King's dream was coming to fruition.

Well, that obviously couldn't stand! God forbid we have people voting across racial lines.

So, after winning almost all-white Iowa with a post-racial message, the Obama movement fixed its sites on the AA-rich electorate of South Carolina. (Losses in NH and NV had made SC a must win.) So one of the most popular white politicians in the AA community had to be branded as a racist! Jesus H. Christ... Hillary Clinton is a good bit less racist than the average white DUer. Among white people, she and Bill are in the top tenth of the top percentile of racial enlightenment.

It's so Rovian that Rove himself might not have heard the nerve to try it. The strength must become a weakness. The races must be divided.

At the time, I posted imploring Clinton to simply skip SC, because there was no way she was going to make it out of SC without being painted as an anti-black villain. (That's politics... there was no way John Kerry was going to make it through 2004 without being painted as unpatriotic. Political lines of attack are usually pretty obvious in advance.)

All the media Clinton haters, from both right and left, piled on to the ultimate man-bites-dog story. The Clintons are bigots! It's delicious. Right-Wingers live for that stuff... remember how we didn't like Alberto Gonzales because Democrats have a problem with hispanics? We didn't like Clarence Thomas because Democrats have a problem with blacks. There is an infinite reserve of RW-leaning petulance eager to feed the "Hillary's a racist" story.

I do not want to overstate the race-based smear aspect of what has happened. A lot of African-American support flowed to Obama after Iowa because many black people were enthused by the idea that he might win. That's understandable and relatively benign. Racial pride is more than understandable, particularly among a down-trodden ethnic minority.

What I am talking about is the extra... that extra need to tear Clinton down among black voters. That little something extra that didn't just benefit Obama, but trashed Clinton, to the point where Hillary-fucking-Clinton is attracting only 55% of the AA vote in a general election poll against John (The other white meat) McCain! Yes, a guy who praised the confederate flag in 2000 and voted against the MLK holiday (I think... could be wrong about that one, but Arizona was the last state to adopt it)... but at least McCain isn't an arch white supremacist like that Hillary Clinton.

And an army of chuckle-heads throughout the blogosphere and on DU bought into ever sordid scrap of the great lie. It was easy to do. People didn't like Hillary and, demonstrating that archetypal wing-nut psychology we find so contemptible when the other side does it, were eager to transfer anger over the IWR into a willingness to believe anything... any lie, any conspiracy.

Well, congratulations. You have succeeded in severing the Party's traditional AA base, smearing the only successful President our Party has had since JFK, and demonizing people who don't vote based solely on skin color. It is sadly typical of the syndrome that you now blame the Clintons for what you have done.

________________________

Added on Edit: This post is like ROSHOMON. My narrative here is not the only narrative, but it is valid narrative that fits the facts as well as the conventional DU narrative. I don't expect all people to see things the same way I do, but I hope that even folks who violently disagree with my characterization will recognize that it is a consistent theory of events, not mere propaganda or argument.

As with all things, there is a stark quality to argument. Nobody can deny that my narrative is as least 10% true, and I do not present it as 90% true. Anything as complex as social dynamics in a national campaign is not likely to be 100% one way or another.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Giving up already? Remember how far down in the dumps McCain was?
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 01:25 PM by rocknation
SNAP OUT OF IT AND GET BACK TO WORK!!!


rocknation
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. No mention of the LBJ/MLK comment?
Or Cuomo's shuck and jive?

C'mon.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
34. See, you really have hit the kool-aid
There was nothing the least bit objectionable about the MLK comment, or Cuomo's shuck-and-jive (which was not said about Obama).

Those are fake controversies that were spun up to appeal to the gullible and the hateful.

It is sad you seem to believe those hoax outrages.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. Kurt and Hunter, you're smart guys.
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 01:59 PM by rucky
Maybe a bit too smart for your own good.

To see nothing objectionable...you'd have to break out Encyclopedia Britannica and an OED to put 'em into context.

It doesn't matter how they were intended, (and why they feel that they needed to be said in the first place is beyond me), they should've guessed what the reaction would be. It's tone-deaf. Who's stupider - the people who said it, or the overwhelming majority of people who "fell for a hoax outrage"?

And it's not really as much as the comments as the arrogance displayed in the face of said outrage.

So now you want to re-take the moral high ground from people who've struggled and have earned it - all because of semantics? Is your cause really worth taking on?
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
68. We have two choices here:
The MLK comment was intended to denigrate MLK or it wasn't.

If it wasn't intended that way, then what exactly is the story? It was historically accurate and not overtly racist. And we KNOW it wasn't a campaign ploy... the line was from a FOX interview and FOX edited the clip to worst political advantage. She clarified her comments at her first stop after that interview, within two hours, when she saw how FOX was presenting the quote.

So why was it a big story?

Because Obama himself, personally, added the bit about "when some attack me as being just words they're attacking Doctor King and JFK" to his stump speech! (One can note the arrogance of conflating himself with MLK and JFK, as if Hillary could not question his personal substance without denigrating MLK.)

There was no story there, yet within 24 hours most black voters in SC were getting the message through talk radio that Hillary had dissed MLK.

And Obama described her remarks as "unfortunate." Why? She hadn't said anything wrong.

And internet warriors were out in force with talking points about how LBJ used the word "nigger." What does that have to do with anything?

Whether an Obama hit job, a FOX NEWS hit-job, or a spontaneous media hit-job, it was a hit-job.

I concede the possibility that the Republicans have driven some of the racial division in our Party. In fact, I state it! But wherever it came from, the bottom line is that many folks accept it as real.

It is tragic that so many blame Wright-mania on Hillary. That's a conditioned response. It is a FOX NEWS operation. John McCain just fired a staffer for spreading it. No Hillary surrogate has said a peep about it.

Why is it assumed around here that racist attacks on the presumptive Democratic nominee couldn't come from those nice Republicans.
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SIMPLYB1980 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. Obama and his surrogates pulled the race card to win SC.
Now we find out he has a racist preacher, who's words he condemns, but who he supports because he is like his crazy uncle. Obama made this mess not Clinton.
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catgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. BILL pulled the race card!
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Black people know where the blame lies. They're not stupid, the way
Hillary supporters (and Bill and Hillary themselves) seem to think they are. And after Ferraro and Wright, they are POSITIVE that the race card is being played AGAINST Obama.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. Thanks for that.
My thoughts exactly, but put much more tactfully than I would have.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
47. No. We are not stupid. We know who played what and when.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
65. Yeah, I love the way some white people blatantly insult the entire black community.
And then accuse others of racism. Freaking unreal. :crazy:
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. To make this post short and sweet because I have to get back to work.
BULLSHIT!



I wish we had an Icon for that. What about it Skinner. I don't like typing that sh**.
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Ka hrnt Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
44. What'd he say?
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
58. "Bill pulled the race card" .... because Jesse Jackson is so anathema to Americans?
Please, just stop. BO can't hold a candle to JJ. Instead of going into an uproar, the obama people should have been delighted to have BO compared to JJ, in any manner whatsoever. But, no, they had to bang the outrage drum again.

Meanwhile, back at the farm, Donnie McClurkin and Obama shared a nice glass of anti-gay tea.
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. no he didn't and he didn't want to
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
38. please explain how his preacher is racist
give me one quote that shows he is racist. Not a quote where he says he lives in a country where people like him are the victims of racism or rejected by the majority but an actual racist comment.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #38
60. "U.S. of KKK A"
There's your quote, lumping U.S. citizens into one large group of KKK members.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #60
86. How does that lump all U.S. citizens into
one group of KKK members????

It just highlights that racist politics and economic policies have a long history in the USA. How can you be offended that an oppressed group of people makes comments like that? His church is 7 miles from Indiana, the state where the KKK is most popular in the USA.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. I answered your question: "United States of Ku Klux Klan America."
It doesn't get any more clear than that. IOW, he insinuates all Americans belong to the KKK.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. that answers nothing
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 05:14 PM by reggie the dog
He insinuates that the SYSTEM, the POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC STRUCTURE of the USA has ramifications on blacks that the KKK love. Most white people have no control over this system.

Here is more clear than the US of KKK A

"Kill whitey"

"we dont need no biggaty down south crackers coming up here and stirring up our happy docile up north honkeys.", oh wait that happend in the inverse.



"fuck all you white bastards"

just to make a point, these are not my thoughts, I try to get past all perjudices I come to have at one time or another.

the US of KKK A is a metaphor......

If it says that all AMERICANS belong to the KKK than it insinuates that the KKK has many non white members. So what is it??? how does it mean that all "whites" are in the KKK as others on here suggest? If folks here the US of KKK A and think that is an insult uniquely against whites then their definition of "American" is "white American".

So what is so wrong, in your logic, about Wright saying that all Americans are KKK members? He would be saying that ALL americans from EVERY race are in the KKK.

You know he is talking about the system and the people that support it and not the little people who cannot control it or who fight against it.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
43. I also read the finding and screaming about Hillary supporters"insensitivity"Obama playing race card
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
70. J.J.junior began the process in New Hampshire
and it went on from there. he lost my respect through this process.

(Many moons ago I was a big supporter of his father.)
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Among white people, she and Bill are in the top tenth of the top percentile..."
That's not setting the "racial enlightenment" bar too high.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. Nothing is fucked here, Dude. Nothing is fucked.
You're being very un-Dude.
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olkaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Walter, they peed on my rug!
They peed on my rug, man.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Great phrase.....The Dude Abides
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FUCK A STRANGER IN THE ASS?!
Love that movie! :rofl:
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. Dios mio, man.
Mark Penn's bush league psyche-out stuff is laughable.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #39
59. Yeah, but he's a pervert, Dude.
Sorry, I had to go there. :evilgrin:
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Shut the fuck up Donny
You're out of your element. :toast:
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Hey careful, man, there's a beverage here!
:toast::beer:
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
71. Those rich fucks!
I did not watch my buddies die face down in the muck so that this fucking strumpet...
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #71
96. Problem with the Clinton campaign is they're nihilists. They believe in nothing.
Say what you want about the tenets of the Trinity United Church of Christ,
AT LEAST IT'S AN ETHOS!
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #96
104. Nicely done!
As Homer would say, it's funny because it's true.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
74. I hope everyone in this subthread has seen The Big Sleep.
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 03:14 PM by redqueen
Shomer f**king shabbos.


:)
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. I told that kraut a fucking thousand times I DON'T ROLL ON SHABBOS! (eom)
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. You're not wrong Walter.
You're just an a**hole.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
7. So..black people who support Hillary are "mature", but black people
who vote for Barack are...what? How about white women who vote for Hillary? How about white voters who vote for Hillary because she's white? This post is a blame-the-victim shitpile, and Obama keeps on outclassing the Queen.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. Here's my question
Did Obama not realize this would be the end result? Is he really that igorant of politics?

I can't accept that he would make such a stupid mistake intentionally, but who knows?

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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
40. what the hell are you talking about?
He was elected first state then federal senator in a majority white state, Illinois, which is not the most enlightend of places by a longshot. Why they hell would he not run for president? Who is leading the race for Democratic Party nomination?
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
73. Referring to his campaign strategy
that he's using for this race. It appears to have backfired on him.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #73
82. he was an underdog
who is now leading the delegate race.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #40
81. You do realize he beat Alan Keyes?
I wouldn't be too quick to tout a black candidate beating another black candidate as demonstrating anything about race and voting.

And I'm guessing his state senate races were in a heavily black district.

Obama has a LOT of impressive "cross-over" appeal, but your specific arguments are not very helpful to making that case.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #81
88. yes it is true
he beat Keyes. But running for federal senator from Illinois involves getting a lot of votes from non white people. It is true that his district in the state senate was heavily black. Nevertheless he is a federal senator elected by people from all races.
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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. Way to boil down
an absolutely horrible campaign run by Team Clinton to racism.

Nothing to do with the proven-to-fail "Big State Strategy"

Nothing to do with "We don't need caucuses - caucus states don't count."

Nothing to do with "Feb 5th will be a coronation, why should we plan for anything after that?"

Nothing to do with the "kitchen sink" strategy, tearing the whole party down around her ears.

Nothing to do with pointing out the qualifications of the Republican candidate over her Democrat opponent.

Nothing to do with Ferraro's retarded comments.

Nope, its all because that Obama somehow managed to play the 'race card'.

If that is the case, and that is ow she blew a 30 point lead, then she was going to get slaughtered in the GE anyway.
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. Sorry we messed up your sure thing
But not real sorry.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
35. Yup
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 01:47 PM by Nederland
If all those black folks had just sat down in the back of the bus where they belong we wouldn't be in this situation...

How dare they mess up the coronation.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
75. "OUR" sure thing.
I don't care whether the next President is Mike Gravel... but he better have a D after his name.

My intense dislike for Hillary Clinton has never been hidden. I cannot stand her.

I just want a winner.

I often find myself at loggerheads with Obama supporters who cannot comprehend fiercely supporting a candidate I don't like.

Joe Biden was most electable. Hillary second, Edwards third. Then Obama, Dodd, Richardson. Then Kucinich.

In many ways, I "like" Obama more than I do Clinton or Edwards.

My candidate preference has always been in terms of electability for the good of all, not for my personal satisfaction.

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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. We have a sure thing
His name is Barack Obama. I'm sorry you can't see that. But I have faith you'll catch up with the rest of the nation soon enough.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
14. Who would run for president knowing this stuff was going to come out eventually?
Does that make sense?

Don
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. There was one fatal flaw in their plan.

The November election.

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knixphan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. Listen to rocknation.
SNAP OUT OF IT AND GET BACK TO WORK!

Hasn't anyone ever played a competitive sport?

When your opponent scores, you don't sulk, you score right back!
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
17. So true it hurts.





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woolldog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
18. Obama didn't tear down Clinton to get black votes
Clinton managed to do that all on her own.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. He had is surrogate in the pulpit Rev. Wright doing it for him remember?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. That's right. Wright pointed out that Hillary wasn't black
and that screwed up EVERYTHING.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. You must have missed the gyrating hips part?
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
97. White disdain for Obama is rooted in the fear that somewhere, black bodies gyrate endlessly. n/t
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woolldog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. LOL, as if Obama's fellow parishoners in Chicago
were ever going to vote for Clinton.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. He was selling the DVDs to anyone who wanted them so it went further than Chicago
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woolldog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Yes and that's why AAs were voting for Obama.
What a low view of the black community you must have to believe that.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. (I think you are misreading this poster.) n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. I think I need to order up a copy of that sermon.
Because I can't stand the BFEE either.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
19. No I believe the Clinton's misjudged
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 01:35 PM by Armstead
I don't think the Clintons are racist.

But I do think they opportunistically believed they would be able to get Obama out of the way by marginalizing him. And thus, comparisons to MLK -- Mesaage: "Obama is an inspirational speaker but just like MLK, but the country needs a capable white president to put those words into action."

Or Bill Clinton comparing him to Jesse Jackson.

They goofed. Instead of making Obama to seem like a "not serious candidate" they got the hackles of the African American community up.

Not racism, but opportunistic miscalculation.




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knixphan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
56. yes, exactly.
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gayron Donating Member (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
20. That is what happens when you keep pulling the race card.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
22. Actually I'm glad this came out now.
It gives the public a chance to "tire" of it and relegate it to "old-news" before the GE campaigning starts. This could have been an incredibly damaging October Suprise, but Obama now has a chance to get this under control and to get people back on track. Mostly, it gives people a chance to see the idiocy of attacking someone for merely being ASSOCIATED with a person who may hold objectionable views. Based on the harping of the media right now, you'd think that Obama himself said those things.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
23. How dare Obama interfere with her G-d given right to the nomination
If you recall, a lot of people signed a petition urging Obama to run...not everyone was satisfied with the prospect of Clinton as our nominee.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
24. That's just disgusting. The Clintons did a fine job of tearing themselves down.
They excel at sabotaging themselves and we don't need another eight years of THAT.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
29. We had a frontrunner who is despised by half the country so we found an alternative
Sorry. At least we now know why she is despised.
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Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
53. Aside from the conservatives who hate her, there are many Dems
who don't like her for our own reasons. I supported the Clintons when Bill was in office, but didn't learn until much later how bad some of his decisions were (like NAFTA and welfare reform, for example), what the DLC stood for, etc. I don't want 8 more years of Republican-Lite.
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
30. Obama and his despicable and ignorant minions have indeed created this
K & R

:headbang:
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Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #30
51. I think you meant to say Hillary, not Obama.
:eyes:
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #51
61. No... I'm not obamatized so I know what I meant
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
54. Libby, I agree the Obama camp created this image of the Clintons
And it's really sad. I'm sure the MSM is just holding back on stuff until the GE to use against Obama if he is the nominee. Wright isn't the only issue Obama has and it wont be public until the GE, just my opinion.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
31. Kurt, I think your assumption in posting this
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 02:05 PM by truedelphi
OP is that the M$M is reporting the truth.

Please, I really think this will be the first election in which the average person across our country will avoid caring abt the media and what the talking heads say and vote for their choice.

ANd hopefully the decision will come down to McCain and the Choice of the People, rather than McCain and the choice of the superdelegates.

Ya know somethin' - Team CNN predicted a Poppy Bush victory right up to the moment that Bill Clinton overtook Poppy.

You cannot rely on the media.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. I do not consider McCain inevitable.
The OP buys into that perception as a rhetorical device, since I am turning around the "Hillary has cost us the white house" meme that is already blossoming around here.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. While not inevitable, he is certainly electable.

I remember in 2004 I was actually against impeachment because I thought it too disruptive, thinking there was no way in hell Bush could possibly win reelection. Kerry showed me how.

President McMaverick is a definite possibility absent a strong, unified Dem campaign.

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Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
32. I never thought Hillary was a true front-runner.
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 02:15 PM by Lisa0825
It was mostly name recognition. When people realized they had another choice, it started to fall apart. Then she changed tactics to try to win at any cost, and has proven herself to be just the kind of person I thought her to be. If you think they didn't play the race card themselves, well you're just in denial.

She is no progressive. She's a DLCer and a rethug enabler. She is not "entitled" to win, and if she fights to the end for it, I will keep fighting against her, because I think she'd be very bad for progressives. They would kill any benefit that the 50 state strategy has had, and the corporate party would be back in charge.
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
52. yes a historic election to be sure, how long it will take the
dem party to recover?


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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
55. You have gone totally over the edge into delusion. What trash you spent all this time composing.
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
57. I agree with you
that the "race card" was used by those deliberately wanting to tear down the Clinton campaign rather than by the Clinton campaign itself. The quickness to jump on Hillary and then Bill about their statements and describe them as "racist" was a ploy. Anyone who listened and believed what Obama said in his speech would not approve of the racism charges. He himself doesn't believe it's right to throw around that charge so lightly. When a person who has fought for equal rights says something that MAY sound racist, you need to question your impulse to claim "racism." Yet I see, on this board and in the media, no restraint.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
62. Nothing has changed.
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 02:29 PM by RUMMYisFROSTED
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
64. Are you African American?
Whether you are or not, what makes you presume to be able to speak for an entire community the way you just did? Your hubris, and disdain for others, are both palpable in your OP.
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Alenne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
67. Hillary is not entitled to the presidency
and I think you grossly exaggerate the love the "black community" has for Hillary Clinton.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
69. This is the problem
"That little something extra that didn't just benefit Obama, but trashed Clinton,"

It wasn't the change in preference but the active trashing of a good candidate whether she was your favorite or not. And many on DU also jumped right through the right wing hoops.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Yes, scorched earth works both ways
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #69
79. I believe the Clintons are a disaster for America and Democrats
I started believing that watching as Bill Clinton sold us out repeatedly in the 90's.

And I am a progressive liberal who is not jumping through "right wing hoops."

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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. It's an opinion
Yours.

However - I would take the 90's Clintons over Bushco any day.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #80
100. Of course it's an opinion -- But not a right wing one
I'd take the 90's over Bushco too.

But they did plant the seeds for many of the disasters that have befallen us under Bush.
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Raffi Ella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
83. It will be said.
Not by the msm in present day but by historians in future,it will be said,in much the same way you stated it in the here and now.

Thank you,brilliant post.


What I want to know is when will The Clinton's good name be restored,if ever fully?
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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
84. Neither one of these two candidates are going to make against McCain!
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 03:48 PM by demo dutch
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
85. Yours is the superficial opinion of the self appointed referee
The fact is that the Clintons have been trying to frame every primary and every caucus.

1) Iowa and all of the caucuses

2) Super Tuesday

3) The February streak of 12 straight victories.

Every single election where they faced a loss they searched a way to denigrate the people who didn't vote for them as not being "representative" or "significant" or whatever. And not surprising the residue of the spin always has blowback.

Last weekend the blowback of dissing Iowa meant Obama gains 10 delegates over HRC - the same amount she gained in her greatest victory - Ohio.

Now the African American commmunity can charachterize what they heard however they want. You can patronize them however you want. But what makes no sense is to suggest that it is not of the Clinton's hand. They wanted to find a hook in SC that they could say the people of South Carolina don't count - just as they have been not counting people from the start. And the residue of that spin is still reverberating thru every African American community in the United States.

Your post is only ROSHOMON in that you have successfully established a matrix that fits your perception. You have not incorporated any of the facts of the arch of the campaign that show a repeating pattern by the Clintons of trying to marginalize and denigrate the state or caucus that has not supported them. You may however be correct that it was not based on a hidden racial motive - I agree. However the fact that Clinton's ear has grown so deaf that he no longer has the sense of the African American community - a community that he used to be in such close harmony with - shows how far away from his prior political life he has drifted.

To blame this reality on anyone but the Clinton's own ham handed bungling of the campaign is simply not consistent with the facts.
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Ysabel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. k and r your reply... (n/t)
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
87. She was a plastic pinata running on wedge issues from the start
and only a fool or a puke would believe she ever stood a chance.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
90. Obama was naive. He should have followed Wright;s advice.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
92. "There is no way John Kerry could have avoided being painted as unpatriotic."
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 05:11 PM by Leopolds Ghost
I guess those uppity black people decided to vote for Kerry anyway
despite knowing he was a sure loser. To turn your terminology around...
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
93. Black People were being refreshingly self-sacrificing, and now this
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 05:12 PM by Leopolds Ghost
On Edit: :sarcasm:
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
95. I don't know how this can be seen any differently from what you've written
well done.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. Yep, those unfrateful negroes. :roll eyes:
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. hey dude
supporting Clinton doesn't make one a racist. I know that's the smear of the day here, but it's utter bullshit.
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cyndensco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
101. As a newbie, I am sure you will not respect my pov, but,
I find your message very condescending.

First, Obama messed up this whole election by having the audacity to run for the presidency?? He had the nerve to go against "the front-runner who had a clear path to the presidency" and did so only to "intentionally divide the party in two?" He had the gall to run when it wasn't his time? Black folk, after showing the initial maturity to back the chosen one regardless of her skin color, fell afoul and decided to jump on the black man's bandwagon? Typically I am able to recognize sarcasm, even the most nuanced attempts at such, and after reading your opinion more than once, I truly believe you are serious.

I guess the brief maturity of the black voter escaped me. When the 2008 campaign began 12+ months ago, I knew I could NEVER vote for Sen. Clinton. She voted to allow bush to authorize the war. Even when I told my also-black husband I could not vote for her, even though she was the "front-runner with a clear path to the presidency'" he came to her defense by stating "well, she didn't know." My retort was that WE knew! So, not unlike my 2004 driving force, ABB, 2008 became ABC. (OK, I knew many of the candidates had voted like her, but all eventually admitted they had made a mistake).

As far as Clinton being the first black president, no one asked me for my vote. I thought it was ridiculous when I first heard it and honestly, the only thing we figured he ever REALLY did to earn that title was to appear on Arsenio Hall playing his sax. THEN, when he was inducted to the AA Hall of Fame (which, by the way, I had absolutely NO idea even existed even though I consider myself to be a very enlightened, very PROUD black person) I cringed at the thought. Bill was a fine president, things WERE much better under his leadership, but a black man, someone who I OWED something to, someone whose wife I owed something to? Naw.

I jumped on the Obama bandwagon the day he announced. I listened to his speech with an open head and was not sold until c-span immediately aired an interview he had had with a Chicago tv broadcaster in which he denounced (and rejected) the whole Iraq War thing. I was sold ... that he was black made it that much sweeter.

I do not believe the Clinton's are racially biased - not any more than most of us are - but she lost me back in 2002. I am tickled when people here suggest Obama is and has played the race card. He is WAY to smart for that. Why, in America, would a black man want to bring more attention to his race than what is already evident? In one of the first Clinton-Obama debates, Hillary, riding on the "Change" coattails, proudly announced that as a woman in the presidency, she would create much change. I felt so sorry for Barack at that moment, sorry for me as an african-american, and sorry for my community, that he could not proudly proclaim that his presidency, too, would be a major change.

Again, I AM a newbie (in terms of posting) and I know we are not highly regarded here anymore...at one time, years ago, most new posts were followed by "Welcome to DU" Not anymore. Anyway, I do not, and will never feel indebted enough to ANYONE, or any family, to owe them my vote. You seem to play black folk with a broad brush.....
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. Thanks for your POV
The language about "intentionally divide the party in two" is a rhetorical device: an intentional inversion of what is said here a hundred times a day about Senator Clinton.

I do not think Obama ever had the objective of wrecking the party, nor do I think that of Clinton. Both are trying to win using whatever tools they have at their disposal.

The folks who are outraged that Clinton continues to challenge Obama never turn it around to ask why Obama ever challenged Clinton... the point being that it is clearly proper for him to seek the nomination, and it is proper for her to seek the nomination.

Nobody has to wait their turn.

As for my perception of how we could have ever reached a point where Hillary Clinton could be polling at 55% of AA voters versus John McCain... it's a hell of a thing.

The fact that Obama polls poorly among white people nationally is normal. That's not just because he's black. It's also because he's a Democrat. We have not won the white vote in a national election since 1964.

For Clinton to be doing so badly among black voters in a hypothetical match-up is, on the other hand, extraordinary by historical standards. And it's the product of something...

I have my interpretation of how we got to this historically remarkable situation, and others have their theories. But either way, it's a hell of a thing.

Reagan Democrats won't vote for Obama. Black voters won't vote for Clinton. And both are being crazy and acting against self-interest (or rather, telling pollsters they plan to act against self interest)... I would vote for either one.

Your reply is thoughtful, and your points well taken.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
102. Obama should have done what the good Rev advised him to do in 2005
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
105. Wow! Best post I've seen all year long. Thanks for this. Cut to the chase.
Bravo!! Bravo!!
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