Is Wright Right?

[The Doctor.]

After reviewing some of his words in context, I'm asking this question because so many of the man's same sentiments have been reflected by honored and long time DUers. I don't know for sure that I can say that he is wrong on any point of substance, even if I might disagree with his overall philosophy.

Now obviously the man is over the top, his rhetoric is angry.

My questions follow, and I hope DUers can reasonably, if not dispassionately deal with them;

"Does Jeremiah Wright have cause to speak with such anger?

"Is there any point of substance that he is dead wrong on?"

"When he said "God Damn America", was it because of her people or because of her actions?"


I know that I may very well have missed something particularly odious and indefensible said by the man, but I haven't seen any of the Farrakahn-style racist hatred coming out of him that the media seems to purport.

Let's see some clinical academia, this isn't flame-bait.

[Blarch]

1. I beleive that...

we were attacked on 9-11 because of our nasty foreign policy over the last few decades, we brought this on ourselves, and now the seeds have been sown for the next attack, we will reap what we sow.

[The Doctor.]

8. That's kind of what I mean.

No, I do not believe we "deserved" it, but we did reap the dire fruit of letting our leaders engage in despotic foreign policy.

No matter how I look at this, I think that if Wright really is one of Obama's 'mentors', it's likely that Obama has picked up a stark pragmatic outlook when it comes to how the world see us.

[KittyWampus]

13. more specifically, the USA armed the mujahadeem and mentored bin Laden. And a lot of that activity

happened on airplanes going in and out of Arkansas during Clinton's governorship.

The mujahadeem became al Qaida.

And we gave lots of money to the Taliban.

[sniffa]

18. Bing used to be our main man

Yes, the chickens came home to roost.

[roseBudd]

2. he is definitely right when he says rich white people run America, look around

[rainy]

3. I think if he didn't say God damn America his words would be less offensive.

He is right on many points but this one statement will go a long way to stir the pot of hatred in the country.

[movonne]

23. Like Obama said he is from a different time ... living through hangings,

setting in the back of bus,having separate bathroom and water fountains, etc...

[The_Casual_Observer]

4. Been to a lot of churches & just about every other kind of public

gathering. However, I don't think I've ever heard anybody addressing the assembly repeatedly shouting "God Damn America" in any context.

[Blarch]

6. funny story...I had an old neighbor...

[The Doctor.]

14. Oh, no doubt... it was over the top. Randi went to town on him today over n***r.

His words are certainly inappropriate, and I hope that what we've heard is all he's said (doubt it), but are those words incorrect? (note... I didn't say "wrong")

[blogslut]

19. I once listened to a preacher

..tell a congregation that there was great evil in the White House and that we should all pray for Satan to stop influencing Bill Clinton. I believe brimstone was involved.

And you know what I said to myself at the time?

"If these crazy, hating hypocrites get control of the White House, American is damned."

[babylonsister]

5. Put into context, which I heard first on KO, Wright is pretty much right imo. nt

[backscatter712]

7. The point he was trying to make was right.

But, he really, really, should have chosen a better way to say it.

We do have a lot of injustice in this country. We have warmongering leaders, we have rampant racism almost as bad as the Jim Crow days, just better hidden, and most of us are economically enslaved by rich assholes, who yes, are white, and yes, black folks are even more firmly economically chained than most of us. We have a loooooong way to go.

[KittyWampus]

9. what he really is? Politically incorrect and raw. But the substance? DU'ers agree with what he says

if they listen to his entire sentences in context.

And if you do NOT agree that America is suffering from "blowback" you are not well informed.

[Enrique]

10. his mentioning Hillary hurts his credibility

makes him seem like a political hack.

[Political Heretic]

16. I agree with you there. Of all the comments, frankly, the obama / hillary compare and contrast

..felt the most cringe worthy and out of place.

Not that I even think I can substantively say he was wrong in the statements. I just think mixing that kind of politics with religious context is pretty much always a recipe for a mess.

[The Doctor.]

22. That's fair. Yes, he should not have touched the political ring. Question;

Do you think that he would have received as much attention if he didn't say that 'Hillary was never called a nigger'?

Obviously a serious breach of the political realm, but knowing the context under which he said it, describing the white-dominated US and the relative abuse of black people, was that the tipping point in and of itself, or would his rhetoric on white heirarchy have been enough to gain the spotlight?

[Enrique]

27. based on my own reaction, maybe not

until I heard him mention Hillary, I didn't have much of an opinion. I'm not black and I'm not religious, so for anything involving those two areas I tend to hold off on judging.

But as soon as I heard him talk about Hillary, and the way he talked about her, I immediately thought "HACK! HACK! HACK!" It calls everything he says into question. Now he's hacking for Hillary, maybe the rest of his career he's been hacking for something else, maybe money.

So to answer your question, maybe the media (I assume you're kind of talking about the media) kind of thinks like me: his mention of Hillary makes Wright fair game. Not because it's Hillary, but because it's a religious leader advancing a narrow political cause.

[Auntie Bush]

34. Well isn't he? n/t

[citizen snips]

53. agreed

[citizen snips]

72. agreed

[Political Heretic]

11. The same *content* has come from Chomsky, Chalmers Johnson, Howard Zinn and other brilliant radicals

Wrights delivery overshadows the content itself. And unfortunately, the real issue isn't about whether the specific statements are true or false / fair or unfair. The issue is that it creates a political perception problem.

I said that earlier. Obama has no "real" problem. But politics isn't reality-based. Obama has a perception problem thanks to the inflammatory style of Wrights rhetoric.

The sad thing here is that I view statements by Ferraro as far, far worse than anything said by Wright. But that's not going to get any traction anywhere because he comes off far more un-hinged while speaking. So Ferraro basically gets away with worse behavior that was right in the middle and heart of the campaign, while months old comments already repudiated by a retiring preacher with no significant campaign role are dominating the news.

[K Gardner]

41. This is some very brilliant analysis here. Bravo.

[The Doctor.]

48. Yes, perception is indeed reality.

Those of us )including myself( that learn to perceive perception, may have had a hard time coming to grips with this, but it's a fact of humanity.

Very few other creatures have the luxury of self-propagating perspective.

[Megahurtz]

12. Wright is right. n/t

[jeffrey_X]

15. He spent 7 years of his life serving this country...

I'll give him some leeway.

[Faygo Kid]

17. What right does a 75 year old black man have to criticize the USA?

Hell, it's been all roses for blacks in this nation's history, hasn't it?

Why would he be resentful? What historical problems could possibly make him resentful?

[The Doctor.]

26. Right... "he wouldn't be where he is if he weren't black."

;)

This is a good discussion, could use another rec or two.

[FrenchieCat]

20. I just keep on not losing sight that Wright is not Barack......

no matter what Wright said.

To some, that's just a technicality, but to me there is a difference.

As the wife of a minister at a Black Baptist Church in Oakland, California (my husband is not the pastor of that church....just one of the ministers in training)....a church that Barbara Lee is a member, there are things said at times that I don't fully agree with, but I'm mature enough to deal with hearing things that I don't agree with (which I guess is 1/2 of the reason that I post at DU). It is more the way the Pastor says it, then what he says that makes it look "bad" or radical....but in reality, Black folks just like to keep it real, and much of what he says has a lot of truth to it, as long as one is not too puritan. Black Pastors have a tendency to become a bit unhinged during a sermon, some more than others. Our pastor happens to be mainly calm...but there are times when he gets a bit excited......but that's just him, and it doesn't say much about me, although I know him well.

I just think that associating what this Pastor said directly to Barack, no matter whether right or wrong, is where I would prefer the line not to be crossed.

[The Doctor.]

25. Brilliant.

"It is more the way the Pastor says it, then what he says that makes it look "bad" or radical....but in reality, Black folks just like to keep it real, and much of what he says has a lot of truth to it..."

Do you believe that any of that 'truth' became a part of Barack's outlook?

I might think so.

[NOLALady]

31. I would imagine

Barack was aware of historical truths before Wright's sermons.

I would imagine Barack's outlook was shaped by his life experiences, just like the rest of us.

[The Doctor.]

35. Is DU part of 'life's experience'?

Anyone have a pastor that was part of their 'life experience'?

It would have taken me longer to realize how corrupt Republicans have been if it weren't for a Molecular Biologist friend of mine. I might not be here now if he didn't fill me in on the roots of Iran-Contra.

Does that count?

People can be much bigger influences on our outlook than you are apparently willing to give credit.

Fair enough?

[rug]

21. It doesn't matter. Obama has disassociated himself from him, right or wrong.

The last thing Obama needs is an academic discussion on Wright.

[The Doctor.]

24. Don't worry, Obama's too busy to read this thread.

I think an academic discussion can be illuminating on this subject. If he's been Obama's mentor, it's important we understand if this is poison, wisdom, or something else.

[doc03]

28. How in the hell do you just disassociate yourself

from your Uncle, friend and mentor for the last 20 years? So he disagrees with all this guy's hate speech and yet went to his church for twenty years. What about the fact that Rev. Wright gave Farrakhan a Lifetime Achievement Award and commends him for all the outright hate and venom from his mouth. There isn't a dimes worth of difference from David Duke and Rev. Wright. Didn't Rev. Wright also visit his other idol Qaddafi a few years ago, I suppose the Lockerbie bombing was justified in his eyes too.

[rug]

29. You can't. That's why he needs to work on it instead of discussing if Wright is wrong.

[The Doctor.]

30. Got examples?

I missed Wright's 'hate speech'.

Where does he tell his people to hate? I really did miss it, and for that I'm sorry.

So can you give us a few quotes? I'm sure you have a few.

[Political Heretic]

46. Hate speech? Is that what you call the speech of Chomsky? Zinn? Johnson?

The country is controlled by rich white men.

The country did suffer from blowback on 9/11, and a grown up is able to both hold the attackers responsible for their crimes and also understand how american hegemony helps create a climate in which such attacks are a virtual certitude.

Hillary Clinton, nor any other white person, will never share the experience and legacy of black oppression. Period.
http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

God "damn" America - perhaps not my own choice of words. But certainly God forgive America, God spare America from what it rightfully deserves, God have Mercy on America, combined with an appropriate sense of outrage and anger at the criminality, injustice, violence and tyranny wrought over and over and over again by our government.
http://www.flagrancy.net/timeline.html

[me b zola]

61. Wright never said ANY terrorist attack was justified

Get it right.

[The Doctor.]

67. Usually, people who post to DU are less inclined to spew BS

because most of them know they'll be called on it.

Well, you've been called on it, and you've got nothing.

I hate when DUer's reveal themselves to be full of shit.

[Auntie Bush]

32. Oh my God! Now DUers are attacking the US and defending Wright!

I can't believe this! They turn on everyone/anyone who criticizes obama in order to defend him...he can do no wrong!

[shadowknows69]

33. Standing for freedom of speech is attacking America now?

Oh, I forgot, in a post 9/11 world we have to be careful what we say. America is the greatest country in the world. Sis boom bah!

[JAbuchan08]

42. don't "blame America first" because if you are not "with us" you are "against us"

and "watch what you say"

[Auntie Bush]

64. I have plenty of criticism of the US...as we all do.

But getting in bed and associating personally with someone who preaches we spread Aids to black people...is just too much. To also associate with someone who says to his congregation...God damn America isn't the type of person the future president of the US should associate with. Why didn't he throughly denounce him long before he decided to run for president? He knows what the Rethugs can do with those comments in a GE. I can't believe he ever let this happen to our Dem nominee. Now everyone has spread so much gossip and hate toward Hillary...how do we win the GE. I'm afraid McCain is going to whoop our ass...and it's all our fault...for acting like Rethugs during this primary. What goes around comes around.

[superduperfarleft]

44. Have you read your sig line lately? n/t

[shadowknows69]

45. lol good catch

[Emit]

57. omg!

good catch

:rofl:

[Political Heretic]

47. Um... I've been consistently criticizing the US government my whole life. And rightly so.

The United States government has an ugly history of violence, ignoring international law, and oppression around the world - these are indisputable facts. The only question is whether you choose to ignore them or justify them, that these things happen is not in dispute.

So, wrap yourself in faux-patriotism if you want to. But I don't see how hiding from the truth helps.

[Auntie Bush]

65. Let's all get on the bandwqgon of hating America.

That's going to go well in the GE with the Rethugs. We were criticized as not being patriotic after 9/11. Let's all give them some quotes here on DU to publish in the Times. I'm frankly surprised Skinner didn't delete them.
Obamites will stand up for Obama no matter what...even though Obama publicly denounced them.

[The Doctor.]

36. This thread deserves another rec... even on a Friday.

I'm impressed... a rational thread with Hillary and Barack people discussing something Rationally.

I'm not surprised, but I really think thoughtful threads deserve more recs than stupid shit like "How Hillary people made me pick Obama" Threads.

If this goes nowhere else, I appreciate the study.

Thank you not 'Hillary-bots' and 'Obamaniacs', thank you DUers.

[Oilwellian]

37. I think it's important we understand Wright's anger

I posted a piece here a few days ago that dropped like a lead balloon because it was rather long and tedious, but it explains well the struggles of African Americans over the past 100 years. I found the commentary on Daily Kos and it was written to recognize a black woman in Dallas who just turned 114. That makes her the 3rd oldest person in the world. I want to post a segment of this Daily Kosser wrote, keeping in mind that Reverend Wright was also a Marine for 7 years. I don't know if he served in WWII, but if he did, it could help us understand his anger towards this country today:

In those days, celebrations like the ones after Joe Louis's victories were few and far between, partly because black people had so little to celebrate in a time when they were kept at the absolute margins of American culture, but mostly because they knew what happened in those days to black people who drew too much attention to themselves. And yet, despite the injustice that they dealt with as second-class citizens in a segregated America, thousands of African-Americans still volunteered to serve their country in World War II. Joe Louis interrupted his lucrative career as a boxer to become one of those men; he never saw combat, but instead traveled around Europe visiting with battle-weary troops and fighting in exhibitions for their entertainment. He received only $100,000 for these fights, far less than he would have back in America, and what money he did receive was donated to the Army and Navy Relief Funds. Many of us, looking back on the injustice that black Americans had to endure in those days, might find ourselves asking why so many of them would volunteer to fight for a country that had treated them so badly. When asked just that, Joe Louis gave a simple reply: "Lots of things wrong with America, but Hitler ain't going to fix them."

In return for the sacrifices that he made for his country during World War II, Joe Louis's reward was to be harassed by his government for most of the rest of his life for back taxes on the money that he earned during the war, none of which he kept for himself. Likewise, multitudes of African-American men who returned from the war expecting (or at least hoping for) better treatment from the country that they put themselves in harm's way for, found instead only disappointment and frustration: they would still not be allowed to vote; still be expected to ride in the back of the bus; still be called "boy," even if they were grey-headed old men; still be called "nigger" if they held their heads too high; still be beaten and hung from trees if they forgot their place in society.

One of those black men who returned from the war, Jackie Robinson, would go on to become the first African-American to play in the major leagues. Many people consider his debut with the Brooklyn Dodgers in 1947 to be the launching point of the modern civil rights movement. But in reality, it was born from the frustration of thousands of returning soldiers just like Robinson, who wanted nothing more than the same rights that white Americans took for granted. More directly, it was born from the groundswell of anger that arose after a 14-year-old boy named Emmitt Till was beaten, tortured and murdered for whistling at a white woman. I don't know if Bell Ewing ever saw the picture of young Emmitt's mutilated corpse as it lay in the casket in which he would later be buried. In my mind, I can see her holding a copy of Jet magazine, tears running down her cheeks. But in my heart, I'd like to think that she never saw that picture. By that time, at the age of 61, I imagine she had already seen more injustice than any person should ever have to.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5060333 (I highly recommend you read in its entirety.)

Personally, I understand Reverend Wright's anger because of his life experiences. How he expresses that anger leaves a lot to be desired, but the premise of his anger is justified and right.

Ron Paul expressed the same type of anger when he spoke on the campaign trail about our foreign policy and how we're reaping what we've sown. There is a great deal of truth to that if you've been paying ANY kind of attention to what we've been doing around the world for the past several decades. I have to think Obama also has the same keen insights into the blowback this country is experiencing and it isn't just a black & white issue...we good, they bad. If there is a God, he can't approve of our warlike policies on a country that was not a threat to us. To me, that's not at all what Jesus preached about.

One thing I find very admirable about Reverend Wright & Obama together...when Obama was a community organizer, he and Reverend Wright worked to bring many local churches together and come up with solutions to the many problems that exist in their communities. Particularly poverty, education, community support systems, etc., etc. In my mind, that's exactly what Jesus preached about...helping the poor and less fortunate. So to that extent, it's hard to see Reverend Wright in a bad light. He's done wonderful work through the years and is highly respected by his peers.

It would be interesting to do a study of the religion Hillary has been practicing as well. There are a couple of threads going now about that very thing and I must say I find her choice of worship far more disturbing. It's only fair we compare her religious dogma to Obama's. From what I've read of Obama's denomination, it appears to be quite liberal and progressive. Hillary's on the other hand is secretive and steeped in rightwing, neoconservative beliefs.

Great thread & kick. :kick:

[K Gardner]

39. Excellent post.. sorry I missed it the first time. I'm just tonight

catching up on the day's outrage and find it another media-created circus that, along with Hillary's campaign, is going to divide this country right down the middle. It is a shame, and a sham.

[The Doctor.]

49. Hell yes! Thank you for that, I am the richer for having read it.

I can understand how the last two paragraphs seem pointed, but it was an excellent piece.

[K Gardner]

38. I find him intellectually challenging, righteously indignant, entertaining and obviously a tireless

advocate for black america. Although many of his statements are over the top, shall we say, I am finding it difficult to flat out disagree with most of what he expresses, if not the specifics.. at least the meat of it. I also feel that being a member of his church would probably be a JOYOUS, memorable, exciting and challenging experience.

If we continue having people like White Catholic Sean Hannity attacking this minister for advocating (no matter in what way) for his people, and demanding Obama step down.. we will be witnessing the rebirth a huge schism in America, one we have not seen since the 1960s.

This is what I believe, this is what I feel. No one who has not lived it, has not had it bred into them throughout generations, can even begin to understand what the black experience is like in america and how/why it is so different from theirs and why a minister would be angered enough to make statements such as Wright made. Strangely enough, those statements I've also heard and read from many different sources. Now, suddenly, they are "treasonous".

It is bullshit. It is manufactured outrage. And, as Bob Beckel said tonight, it is a "high tech lynching".

Enjoy, America.

[K Gardner]

40. Just gave you #5. Good thread .. (for the most part !)

[Politicub]

43. He's entitled to his opinion. We all are.

It's part of being an American. This whole issue confuses me? What's the problem?

:shrug:

[The Doctor.]

51. Can you find anything wrong with his opinions other than the way he phrases them?

That's the issue.

Is it really 'hate' speech if your grievances are legitimate?

[ClayZ]

50. Yes

K and R

[citizen snips]

52. You don't need clinical academia to deduce that wright is religious blowhard.

[Disturbed]

54. America is the greatest Nation on this Planet.

Anyone that dares dispute that is committing blasphemy.

[ClayZ]

70. Great Flag!

K

[citizen snips]

71. he has a right to dis-like america.

[The Doctor.]

68. Then answer the three questions.

See, if you do, you might realize you're talking out your ass.

[citizen snips]

69. If you use common sense you might realize that. . .

Wright only says this stuff because he is a preacher. And most preachers like to indoctrinate the congregation. I would also like to see some facts in your post. And another thing I am sure Wright is well off financially so he should be angry at nothing. But most academias don't have common sense.

[Swamp Rat]

55. k&r

:popcorn:

[The Doctor.]

56. Oh... just wait for the next one

We'll get out the popcorn, pretzels, and the beer.

[Swamp Rat]

59. Can I finish reading this one first?

I was going to go eat something... do I have time, or will it be sooo good that I can come back hours later to find it hopping? :D

:popcorn:

[The Doctor.]

62. There's time. Besides, maybe no one will notice it.

;)

[The Doctor.]

66. Here it is...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5100085

popcorn time.

[Orsino]

58. It's not possible to interpret him correctly...

...based on out-of-context sound bites. A lot of DUers, including me, find a lot in his words to agree with.

And I haven't listened to him at much length.

[Drachasor]

60. His criticizing of America is something Americans don't accept. Most are soundly against...

thinking that our Country could ever make a terrible error. We don't like talking about the genocide of the Native Americans (or systematically trying to destroy their culture). We don't like talking about slavery or lynchings (or more to the point, viewing it as a blemish on our record). Regarding foreign policy and activities, we especially don't like examining our actions. We, as a whole, maintain a blissful ignorance of how we prop up dictators, have fought against democracy in other lands, have stood by while genocides were being committed elsewhere, and have killed masses of civilians in the past. Anyone who brings any of this up is labeled a "crazy" and unamerican.

So even though Wright had some very good points (though I don't care for how he brought them up in a number of cases), most of America will be unable to accept the truth to his words. Ideally, Obama would be able to speak to this and how Wright has some good points, but it is a political reality this would doom his campaign. So the real shame is that Americans refuse to be introspective about their country.

[The Doctor.]

63. Very well said.

Americans have a great deal of difficulty with introspection.