"If I can't have the presidency, no Democrat can!"

[txaslftist]

I heard that on "independent" talk radio yesterday, as a reflection of Hillary's attitude about the White House. Whether true or not, the perception is that Hillary would rather Dems lose the White House to McCain than have Barack Obama win.

This seems borne out in her oft repeated statements about experience, that McCain and she have passed some kind of "Commander in Chief threshold" or that "I have a lifetime of experience, John McCain has a lifetime of experience and Barack Obama has a speech he gave in 2002..."

It seems as if, running behind in every realistic measure, whether money, delegates or the popular vote, Hillary is bound and determined to so bloody Obama that even should he win the nomination (which seems rather more likely than not), he won't be able to win the general. Already McCain is playing her quotes in his campaign ads against Obama, as if to say, "Even the leaders of the Democratic Party agree Obama is unfit to be president and I am."

First of all, as a strategy of defeating Barack in the general election, I don't think it's going to work. The alternative to Obama is "McSame", and he's a certifiable lunatic. Most Americans, if they don't understand this now, will understand it soon enough. Whomever we nominate will likely mop the floor with the remains of McSame.

That said, does anyone here agree with the statement above, that if Hillary can't win, then McCain would be a better option than Obama? If you do agree with that, can you explain to me how that can possibly be true? If Obama gets the nomination and Hillary either declines to support him against McCain or endorses McCain, would you go along with that?

I'm really trying to gauge something here. Not the strength of the pro-Hillary sentiment, but the strength of anti-Obama sentiment. Honest answers only, if you please.

[BOSSHOG]

1. I am and always have been a General Clark supporter

however, I will wholeheartedly support with gusto and maybe a few bucks whomever the dems nominate as their presidential candidate. I'm not overly crazy about either Clinton or Obama but can easily support either versus whomever the republicans throw out there. In my unscientific view of DU GD-P Obama supporters haven't helped his candidacy much, but it doesn't look like he needs it.

[txaslftist]

2. I like Wes, too.

He caught a tough break.

[skipos]

3. That sums up Hillary pretty well

I went from Richardson to Biden to Edwards and Obama. I am no Clinton fan, but I never understood why so many people I know claim they would never vote for her in the general election. After watching her behavior for the last few months, I now understand.

[txaslftist]

5. Do you think she's really that self-absorbed?

That she just can't be graceful and would rather burn down the Democratic Party than lose?

That's terrifying.

[skipos]

9. I didn't think that up until recently

I used to actually defend her around here when I first joined DU. Does she ever criticize John McCain anymore? All I hear her do is prop him up to put down Obama. Other than that, she spends a lot of time belittling all the states that she lost, and trying to convince herself that Obama will lose every state in the general election that he didn't win in the primaries. I am sure she has seen the polls that totally contradict her lies, but she still lies anyway.

At this point, it is all about destroying Obama, letting McCain win, and trying again in 2012.

[txaslftist]

13. Setting her sights on an "I told you so" run in 2012?

She'd get utterly destroyed in 2012 if she does that. Doesn't she know that?

[skipos]

17. Mark Penn is a proponent of

"do whatever the hell you want to whoever you want to help yourself now, worry about the consequences later."

If Obama is President, Hillary can't run again until 2016, and she probably thinks that she will be too old. It is in her own political best interest to see McCain win if she isn't the nominee, and that is why she is working toward that now.

[Lerkfish]

12. I believe that now

recent events have shown it to be true.

[coalition_unwilling]

16. HilBilly doesn't want to burn down the Dem Party. She just wants to

damage Obama so he loses in November and she's positioned for 2012. That patently obvious strategy won't work with me.

[democrattotheend]

27. I won't go so far as to accuse her of doing that

But I'd love to hear what John Kerry has to say (privately) about that.

I think part of the reason he endorsed Obama might have been that he felt the Clintons did not really want him to win in 2004. Bill going on the book tour and praising Bush, the leaked phone call, Carville, etc makes me wonder if they were trying to create the appearance of helping him while not doing much to help or even quietly trying to hurt his chances.

And according to an article I read the other day, Al Gore might have something to say about it too. The article talked about how she poached a lot of donors and resources for her senate campaign that would have otherwise gone to the presidential race in 2000.

I won't go so far as to accuse her of deliberately trying to sabotage Obama this time around so she can run again, but I wouldn't put it past her. I'd like to believe that she is a team player, but everything I have read and the behavior she has displayed suggests the contrary.

[coalition_unwilling]

28. Thank you for that balanced post. Upon more mature reflection, I

think I tend towards your more nuanced view than the one that I initially expressed. The putative endorsement of McLame over Obama (on the criteria of experience) is what got me seeing red. And no amount of rationalization by HilBilly's forces will explain it away.

[Scurrilous]

4. K & R

:thumbsup:

[rug]

6. I take it you have concerns about Obama's ability to win the General Election.

Or is it all Clinton's fault?

[txaslftist]

7. If you read my post, you would see that I don't.

At least no more than I would have concerns about any Dem winning. Obviously the GOP is going to pull out all the stops as usual, but I think either Obama with his hyper-organization or Hillary with her toughness can beat McCain, who is, frankly, a bit of damaged goods.

If Hillary continues to endorse McCain, though, then yes. The results of that would be "her fault". You don't think so?

[rug]

10. I read it. It was all about Clinton not Obama. As usual.

And you, of course, know she did not endorse McCain. Come on, deep down you know it, cast off that glaze and tell the truth.

[txaslftist]

11. She didn't?

What does "I have a lifetime of experience and John McCain has a lifetime of experience and Barack Obama has a speech..." mean, if it isn't an endorsement of McCain over Obama? Just a little game of compare and contrast?

She could have said, "I have a lifetime of experience and Obama has a speech". She didn't. She injected the Republican nominee into in and then compared her opponent unfavorably to him. I don't see a purpose in that, unless it is to try to threaten her listeners with "if you nominate Obama, McCain's experience trumps him..." And why "McCain has passed that CIC threshold, I BELIEVE I HAVE, Barack Obama hasn't..." Hell, that's practically an endorsement of McCain over both of the Dems.

WTF is she thinking?

[rug]

15. She was comparing a matchup of her against McCain versus Obama against McCain.

This has been hashed to death.

I agree she could have said it differently but the way she did say it was a calculated political dig at Obama, not an endorsement of McCain.

I hope he and his supporters have a thicker skin than has been shown. But lying about this doesn't make him look good.

[txaslftist]

19. "She could have said it differently?"

She said it 3 times at least, and in as many different forums. This wasn't an inadvertent or off the cuff remark anymore than her "campaign by Xerox" was. As for Obama and his supporters' skins, I think they're plenty thick when it comes to attacks by right wingers. It's the stabs from your own party that get to you.

[rug]

22. I didn't say it was inadvertent.

I said it was a political dig at Obama but not an endorsement of McCain.

Though she could have said it differently, she didn't. BFD.

[txaslftist]

25. BFD... Yeah, I think it will be a BFD.

Lots of leaders in the party have said she crossed a line with that remark. I think it's gonna cost her superdelegates, I think it's already cost her a lot of undecideds, and I think it's going to come back to haunt her for a while, to say nothing of the damage it will do to Obama in the general election.

Yeah...

Definitely a BFD. I'm forced to agree with you.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

8. Not too far off.

[coalition_unwilling]

14. Hilbilly is playing Humphrey to Obama's McGovern. Been there, done that in '72.

It was just as despicable when Humphrey did it to McGovern as it is now.

[txaslftist]

20. Funny. I don't remember a "president Humphry" or "McGovern" ...

I must have missed that part in history class...

[coalition_unwilling]

23. No, what you missed was the sabotage Humphrey and his minions

inflicted upon McGovern in the 1972 general election. Humphrey and his group actually preferred that Nixon win. This is a matter of common political lore, so I'm surprised you have never heard of it.

[txaslftist]

24. I have. My point was that neither of them went on to the White House.

Demonstrating how flawed this concept of mauling the frontrunner for a future race is.

[coalition_unwilling]

26. Interesting. Before Humphrey and his minions started their

shenanigans, polling had McGovern within striking distance if not at parity with Tricky Dick. Popular myth has traced McGovern's slide to the Eagleton affair and Nixon's trip to China. But popular myth has conveniently white-washed out the contribution to McGovern's demise . . . done by other nominal Democrats.

The real point is that McGovern might have been elected in Nov 1972. I guess we'll never know now.

The point I am making is that HilBilly sabotaging Obama parallels neatly what Humphrey and his minions did to McGovern. I personally still think Obama is going to grind McLame into the dust, despite HilBilly's best efforts to sabotage Obama's candidacy in the general election. HilBilly has pissed me off so much that, even if Obama loses in the general election in Nov. 2008, I will never cast a ballot for HilBilly again. Period.

[Bigleaf]

18. See this thread for why she would do this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5033244

[txaslftist]

21. Wow. Not cool at all.

[Tresalisa]

29. My honest answer

is that I think either would be a great candidate, and that either can beat McCain. I do see the point that both of them going against each other to gain the nomination can cause damage in the primaries and give ammunition to McCain, but I think it's more important that everyone gets to vote , and I think it's a bit naive to think that the Rs don't already have a mode of attack for either Hillary or Obama already in place.

:hi:

[jmg257]

30. Can anyone post a link to an instance when Clinton has done ANYTHING for the party, and not herself?