Hillary's Win in Ohio Proves That She is the Populist Dem Now that Edwards is Out

[McCamy Taylor]

The War used to be the most important issue in this country. When it was, Obama had a slight edge over Hillary, because he spoke against the war at its inception when Hillary voted for it. Later, they had almost identical voting patterns, so both are better on the issue than John McCain. Therefore, I believe that either could beat McCain in the general on the topic of the Iraq War.

However, as people lose their homes and go into bankruptcy from medical bills and lose their jobs and the nations economy slides deeper into recession---a recession made worse by the continuation of a war that was supposed to be a cakewalk that would fund itself through Iraq's oil sales---Hillary has shown that she can connect with voters who have immediate pressing concerns about their finances, their jobs, their health, their houses. And Americans care a lot about their pocketbooks. Just ask George Bush Sr. or Jimmy Carter or any other incumbent who has had to try to get re-elected in the middle of a recession.

The Democrats must nominate someone who can energize the traditional Democratic base, and in particular someone whom the working class and rural voters believe cares about their economic wellbeing. Someone whom they trust to develop working solutions. When Hillary talks about economic issues, she lights up. She is enthusiastic. Tonight, when Obama tried to switch from his usual rhetoric about change and hope to the economy, he lost all his luster. He could not even pretend that he cared about the topic.

People on the brink of financial collapse are not looking for new ideology or new philosophy or new ways to contemplate the future. They are not interested in a new style of leadership. They do not give a hill of beans how the rest of the world looks at us or our president.

They want a public servant who will show up at work and solve their immediate problems .

My own family desperately needs an end to this health care crisis. With Hillary, I know I will have it. With Obama---I am not so sure. Maybe I won't be able to afford his health care. Maybe I will be one of those who is "allowed" to opt out. We need help with education costs. Again, I know that Hillary will do something. Obama will dance with the ones who brung him when he gets into office---and he is being backed by a bunch of affluent people with the time to stand around all day in caucuses.

This fall, there will be no caucuses. This fall, everything will be plain old fashioned voting.

[lligrd]

1. The War And NAFTA Are The Cause Of the Economic Collapse

and anyone to stupid to see that probably voted for Hillary.

[woolldog]

2. I don't think NAFTA

has anything to do with it. Ohioans are just looking for a scapegoat. Both HRC and BHO pandered to them on the NAFTA issue unfortunately.

[lligrd]

6. You're Wrong, As Anyone That Works In the Tech Or

Manufacturing fields.

[amborin]

52. nafta did not affect tech jobs....those are affected by India

[lligrd]

55. That Is Quite Possibly The Stupidest Post I Have Seen All Day

and that is saying something.

[amborin]

65. your ignorance is appalling

[lligrd]

66. And Yours Is Blatant! nt

[Ravy]

75. You see a surge of Mexicans and Canadians taking all the tech jobs?

No, I don't either.

[cascadiance]

143. AND who is the number one champion of the India lobbyists and getting rid of H1B caps for them?

HILLARY! So, HOW is she my friend in defending my tech job again? I have a bit of common sense here, and I just don't see her as helping people like me!

All I see above ia marketing spin, not any true appeal to grass roots that Edwards was doing. If she were, I think Edwards would have endorsed her by now.

I just see a candidate that's supported the war, has been pals with Rupert Murdoch, is one of Sibel Edmonds' dirty dozen that blocks whistleblowers from coming forward in Washington, has openly and recently supported removing H1B caps, is nebulous about supporting NAFTA, which her husband helped push through, is likely to continue her husband's siding with those who want to continue media consolidation (ie. the Telecom bill of 1996 which McCain by the way voted AGAINST!), supports calling Iran a terrorist state and tries to "nuance" her vote there in to not being supporting a war with Iran, and many other things. I don't really see anything "populist" about her at all!

If you are going to say that her health insurance is better, it is still not the populist view that Michael Moore and others feel is the only way out of the insurance profiteers mess which is single payer and taking them out of the equation. If you can't afford to pay the *mandatory* health insurance that her plan requires you to, and the government deems that you are able to afford it, then you'll get fined instead of getting health care. I think everyone should be guaranteed health care coverage, and they shouldn't have to have any kind of "measured" fees to pay for it. Even the act of "measuring" them is an added inefficiency that costs us all extra money right now with our current health care (where we pay tons of money to insurance companies to come up with ways to include or exclude various people for their coverage which wouldn't have to be a cost at all with universal health care).

[Armstead]

90. NAFTA as shorthand for Corporate Globalization

The fact is that our trade and other policies -- which were fostered by the Clintons -- basically gave a written invitation for American companies to shuit down operations here and go overseas.

NAFTA is part of that, but the whole neoliberal philosophy of Markets Uber Alles is what is decimating the middle and working classes.

To be fair, Obama is not much better. But NAFTA and trade are NOT merely scapegoats.

[McCamy Taylor]

7. Ah, but Obama and Hillary have IDENTICAL records on voting to extend the war.

And that is the cause of the economic problems associated with it. The original plan for war as presented to Congress and the US was in and out after Saddam was toppled. No one told anyone that the secret plan was 100 year occupation to protect Exxon's oil fields.

The US economy could have handled a quick in and out.

Both Hillary and Obama have identical records when it comes to bringing a halt to the costly protracted occupation that is costing us so much money---records which some Dems would describe as piss poor.

[lligrd]

18. Sorry, But It Was The Invasion Itself That Cost Us

Getting out of the quagmire that Hillary voted for will cost even more not matter how we do it. Face it, we owe the Iraqis for destroying their country and Hillary have * the power to do it.

[Ravy]

76. Sanctions were destroying Iraq before the IWR.

Bush should not have invaded without proof that Saddam was holding WMD and wouldn't destroy them as the ceasefire and UN resolutions specified. But he did.

Hillary spoke out against invasion (witout cause) in her IWR floor speech right up until the time of the invasion.

Bush apologists who say that the Congress sent the troops instead of him just look silly to me.

[karynnj]

128. votes don't tell the entire story

Senator Kennedy has the same record on funding the war, other than voting for Kerry/Feingold, which neither had the courage to vote for.

What is different is what their policies going forward would be and there view of when war was appropriate. You get a sense of that in Obama's speech - which is why it was important.

With HRC, I would have had no problem with her vote if she and Bill had spent the months of January, February and early March loudly using the megaphone that they alone had to point out that diplomacy hadn't been exhausted, the inspectors were doing productive work and we were not at a point of last resort - in fact, there was LESS reason to justify an attack than there was in October. That bothered me - but, I assumed that at worse it was likely just politics - which is pretty bad.

But, this week, this clip changed my mind for the worse. The date is March 6, a week or so before the war started. There were stories of potential diplomatic solutions and it was clear the inspectors found nothing. I had argued - for all Democrats, that they might have voted differently in early March when Bush actually made the decision to invade. In HRC's case, that was probably not true.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4865476

[Syrinx]

8. yep

Spending trillions of dollars on unnecessary war is bad for the economy.

Conventional wisdom is that war spending is good for the economy, but this particular war has been used to redistribute wealth upwards. That's the real reason for the war. It wasn't about protecting America or getting rid of a nasty dictator. It was to move even more money from the middle class to the plutocrats.

[lligrd]

27. Convectional Wisdom Needs Some Updating

Wars based on theft are not good for a nation's economy and often result in the ruination of the country that perpetuates it.

[amborin]

10. Nafta has virtually nothing to do with this economic collapse

[lligrd]

29. Ignorance Costs A Lot

Someday you will notice.

[amborin]

51. hah

i've done extensive research on nafta

sorry, but it has almost nothing to do with the current economic malaise

and it was used to smear hillary

[lligrd]

53. Care To Share Your "Wisdom"

because I think a hell of a lot of us think NAFTA and H-1B visas have had an extremely negative effect on our wallets.

[ClayZ]

14. Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups.

Unfortunately!

K and R

[CalGator]

17. hey now

Stupid people in large groups is Hillary's base. she OWNS the uneducated Democrat base.

[McCamy Taylor]

40. So the Democratic base is "stupid uneducated people in large groups"? Why post at DU if you

have an attitude like that?

Jeez.

[progdog]

102. Last night MSNBC kept saying Hillary got her base back

In Ohio, 20% of the voters said race matters and of those 20%, 80% voted for Clinton. That covers more than the percentage she won by in Ohio. Why isn't anyone talking about this?

[marions ghost]

108. well nobody wants to

look at racism.

It's apparent that it was a factor in Hillary's support in Ohio.

[progdog]

120. Is she proud of that?

I wonder. Is this part of winning at all cost?

[marions ghost]

135. makes you wonder

"Clinton gets the Racist Vote" -- not a headline we're likely to see, but as you point out the statistics show it.

Are there any polls comparing the Dem vs Rep answers to those Q about race in Ohio? Are people calling themselves Dem just as likely as Repubs to say "race matters?"

Are we wrong to think that one of the defining things about Democrats in general is support of racial diversity?

I'm sure the Clinton campaign will rationalize it away, but it's a GOOD question to ask them.

[progdog]

146. I think we are wrong to think that.

A part of her Hispanic vote in Texas was racist as well. I do think it is very area specific though.
It also may be generational. Anyway it makes me very sad.

[SammyWinstonJack]

104. "Democrat" base?

:eyes: :silly:

[leftynyc]

129. Democrat base????

Your slip is showing. And perhaps someone can explain to me how 90% of blacks vote for Obama but Hillary's supporters are called racists.

[indimuse]

80. obama loves nafta and voted to fund the war over and over!

fact!

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

99. Obama voted to make sure troops over there had body armor

Hillary voted to *send them over there without it*

[blm]

106. The stupid think Clintons oppose Bushes, too, when Clintons PROTECT Bushes

they always have and always will.


http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

Bushes and Clintons see the public as voters to be manipulated, not as citizens to be respected with the truth.

[roguevalley]

141. populist? I could laugh.

[Justitia]

3. She voted to pour TRILLIONS into the Iraq war, how can she be the "economy" candidate?

Her vote for political expediency is costing us both the treasury and spilled American blood.

Not to mention, her complete fuck up of the health care debate in the 90s has set us back at least a decade in getting anything done on that front.

What republican will ever cross the aisle to help Hillary Freaking Clinton with any health plan whatsoever? They hate her for her healthcare plans and we need them to pass anything.

[McCamy Taylor]

13. Obama's war funding record is different from Hillary's how?

[Justitia]

16. She voted for this godforsaken war, period. Sorry, you can't weasel out of that.

Hillary is PRO WAR. And its killing us and bankrupting us.

That's her albatross to wear.

Trying to "parse" and "triangulate" it into "war funding" is such a weasely, Clinton thing to do, but sorry,

HER VOTE GOT US THERE, she has to answer for it. Of course, she still stands by it.

[McCamy Taylor]

30. Tell Obama to filibuster war funding if he is against it. Then I will believe that he is different

from Hillary.

He won't do it, will he? Because they are all off them too scared :scared: of being called soft on terra in the general election.

Your character candidate is just a politician.

[Justitia]

34. Why should the troops pay for Hillary's political ass covering?

She sent them there TO DIE, period.

She did it for political expediency because she didn't want to be called unpatriotic, she is a FUCKING COWARD when it came for standing up and doing the right thing.

Now, the rest of us are stuck paying for it and paying for the troops to get halfway decent body armor and enough to fucking eat and a gun for patrols.

I knew she sent them there to die to cover her ass, I guess you'd just have them do it quicker???

She will NEVER own up to that vote and she is a ruthless CHICKENSHIT for it.

[lligrd]

63. Great Post And No Answer

because there is no answer for that which is wy they resort to lying.

[557188]

86. Its incredible how some of you don't understand one simple thing

If you fund a war you support it.

Cut funding and the war ends.

Single issue voters are the worst, even more so when its a stupid single vote and they ignore the fact that their candidate is exactly the same on the issue.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

103. Not with *

Cut the funding and the troops will get less ammo, less fuel for their vehicles, less medical care when they come back, ....

[Carolina]

105. tell em, Justitia

the truth is the truth, and the war affects the economy. Anyone who can't see that the trillions spent over there are bankrupting us here and squandering whatever resources we could, and should, use stateside is just plain STUPID.

[leftynyc]

133. I didn't realize hers was the

deciding vote on Iraq. Because that's what you're making it sound like. And your contortions on why Sen Obama can't fillibuster funding votes is a joke.

[shimmergal]

85. Her vote DIDN'T get us there...

there's a lot of evidence that Bushie Boy and esp. Cheney were hell-bent to invade Iraq from the day they first took office. They would have done it with or without the IWR. I don't like that so many Democrats voted for it, but if they'd all voted against, it still wouldn't have changed the way things went.

[MojoMojoMojo]

33. She proposed Single Payer,Her BALLS are bigger than Obamas

[Justitia]

37. Bullshit, Hillary has NEVER proposed Single Payer. Do you even know what that is? -eom

[lligrd]

64. When Was That?

Not really expecting an answer since it is total BS.

[Bright Eyes]

82. "She proposed Single Payer"

Are you kidding, or do you not know what single payer health care is?

[MojoMojoMojo]

94. You are right I stand corrected.But 1993 plan was more like Single Payer than

the plans offered today.

[karynnj]

119. Simple question - was there one universal plan that everyone was on?

Or were there muliple payers? The 1993 plan was not single payer - and single payer would not have passed in 1993.

[rodeodance]

132. The country is not quite ready for single payer yet--but Hillary's has been

chance of transforming into one.

[karynnj]

139. You can argue that most plans can be transformed to one

Not to touch the 2008 ones,

In 2004, the most interesting feature of Senator Kerry's plan was the re-insurance for catastrophic costs. Kerry, the chair of the Small Business Committee had proposed the idea to his health advisor's because he knew that many small businesses found it too expensive to continue to insure their employees after one of them suffered an injury of illness that caused large medical bills. The re-insurance was a single payer system. It was widely praised as it could lower the overall costs of insurance by removing this uncertainty. (Note - that praise implicitly confirms that everyone agrees that a larger pool leads to lower expenses - the lowest being when it includes everyone - even before you consider the lack of need for marketing) This feature was considered to increase the number of people with employer provided insurance.

Now, let's assume, that Kerry would have won and got this through the very Republican Congress in 2005 - and the cost savings really occurred. You don't need a degree in math, finance, or economics, to guess that the next step would be to see if there were still gains to be made by lowering the threshold. Kerry had suggested $50,000. Who's to say that the next year, it could be $40,0000 .... to a point where it would be possible to not have insurance in front of it and just pay the premium for catastrophic insurance - then the threshold becomes your deductible. Voila, a single payer system.

I assume that most systems have a way you can propose they transition to single payer. The 1993 plan was extremely complicated and might actually be harder to suggest a means.

[amborin]

57. hey obama supporter, that is a blatant lie

[Justitia]

68. Oh Really? Which part exactly? It's the sad freaking truth & you know it. -eom

[Mezzo]

117. Psssst.....so did Obama. He voted to pour TRILLIONS into the Iraq War and

doesn't want to bring them home. He wants them to go to Pakistan. I want them HOME.

now.

[jgraz]

4. Hillary's win in OH proves that gutter politics can stall a 20-point slide in the polls.

She's yet to win a contest on her own merits. Let her run a positive, issue-oriented campaign and see how many votes she gets.

[Emit]

12. I agree, jgraz. Somehow, the kind of negative campaigning we all witnessed this week from Clinton

doesn't seem to fit with my idea of a true populist candidate.

[amborin]

15. but Obama used gutter politics in Ohio

by scaring people with misleading health care flyers saying Hillary's plan would make them pay

[anonymous171]

19. Misleading, yes. Scary, no.

3 am ad=scary

[anamandujano]

48. None of you were scared. You were all laughing at it and saying

Obama's quick response neutered it.

Changed your mind now, did ya?

[anonymous171]

84. The ad scared people, plain and simple.

No response, however fast, can negate the fear issue.

[amborin]

54. sleezy obama ohio flyer==very scary

just shows how disconnected you are from the concerns of lower working class folks back east

they are terrified....

no money, low income jobs....then suddenly confronted with the scary threat of having to pay out of pocket for health insurance?

that is terrifying to many folks

[jgraz]

25. Remember, these are the Clintons we're talking about. Health care flyers don't even come close.

When Norman Hsu, Marc Rich and Brenda Stronach are household names... When you see Obama's campaign circulating photos of fat Hillary in a bathing suit or wrinkly Hillary without her makeup...

When you hear Obama say he "takes Hillary at her word" that she didn't kill Vince Foster and "of course she's not a lesbian. As far as I know"...


THEN you'll know that Obama has used the kind of gutter politics that Hillary has been engaging in.

[Emit]

36. Oh, but Hillary said, "This has been a very mild primary campaign ... "

and "...This has been a very positive exchange..." :eyes:

Here:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4897286&mesg_id=4897286

Warning: Some DUers may find this video offensive to their senses

[woolldog]

26. how is that false or misleading???

Her plan does make them pay. It has a mandate.

[amborin]

56. obama's sleezy flyer

mislead ohio voters

deliberately

by lying about hillary's health care plan

low income people will be forced to get insurance, but they will get govt subsidies to pay for it

[woolldog]

60. I don't see how that's wrong.

It's unclear how much the subsidies will be and who they will extend to. People WILL be forced to buy insurance, which is the only claim the flyer makes and which is entirely accurate.

[amborin]

69. you are simply denying the truth

the poster was slimey and misleading

but of course you say it was all okay

[woolldog]

124. sorry

but I believe it was accurate. You've been unable to articulate why exactly it was inaccurate (saying that her plan will force you to buy healthcare IS accurate), so I'll stick with my original take on it.

[lligrd]

61. Who Pays For Government Subsidies?

Sorry, but I already pay enough to the friggen rip off insurance companies and now you want me to subsidize them too? This will never pass. You don't even have the support of half the Democrats.

[amborin]

70. you'd rather pay higher and higher taxes to fund public ERs

it's much much more costly for folks to use the ER for their primary care needs.....

money that comes straight out of taxpayers pockets

and while i'm at it....take a minute, please, to reflect on what you said

are you a republican? you sound like one

that's a standard replublican position...."what? me pay for someone's subsidy? no way will i pay"

[lligrd]

155. No, But I would Gladly Pay Higher Taxes For Single Payer

Maybe if I type slowly you can understand. I do not want to pay insurance comapnies who rip people off . Got it?

[lligrd]

35. It Will Make People Pay Insurance Companies

and make taxpayers subsidize them. Besides, thanks to her war votes their is nil chance of passing any health care reform in the foreseeable future.

[amborin]

72. not accurate

like it or not, unless the entire system were overhauled

and we went to single payer

we are stuck with health insurance companies, just like we're stuck with car insurance companies

there is no other instrument out there

they are cheaper than funding ER visits for folks without insurance...cheaper for all....

[OzarkDem]

113. You're either dishonest or uninformed, it does no such thing

Clinton's plan offers a choice between a government (like Medicare) plan or private insurance.

Its exactly like Edwards plan, and is even better in some respects.

[OzarkDem]

114. Agree, he was the only one engaging in gutter politics

and it looks as though he wants to swim even deeper in that sewer.

[OzarkDem]

112. She used no gutter politics

she simply ran an honest campaign on the issues. Check the opinion polls, that's what Ohioans voted for.

[anonymous171]

5. This will make her even easier to dispatch.

She is a democrat of the most ELITE level. All we need to do is put out a few ads revealing her interesting financial dealings, coupled with that lovely picture of her and Chelsea toasting two glasses of champagne at the 2004 convention and we will defeat her.

[McCamy Taylor]

9. The way you posted pics of Edwards doing his hair and his house?

[anonymous171]

11. I don't remember doing that.

And anyway, Edwards actually cared for the working democrat, he wasn't simply pandering.

[McCamy Taylor]

22. Easy for you to say now. Used to see lots of DUers post that stuff when he was in the race.

Regular "Edwards is a phony" party here starting all the way back in January 2007.

Since you were advocating using the exact same tactics against another Democrat, I thought maybe you might be one of them.

[anonymous171]

24. OK, I guess you don't want to discuss anything.

It's ok though.

[McCamy Taylor]

31. I would like to discuss why you think it is ok to use "Edwards is a phony" style attacks on Hillary.

Please explain. I would love to hear the ethics involved in your decision. I am sure that you have thought it out.

[anonymous171]

32. Hillary is Edwards now?

Hillary is not a populist, she just plays one for votes. Remember the "fish factory/farm" ads?

[lligrd]

46. I Would Love To Hear Why You Think It Is Okay For Hillary

to use the same tactics? I for one abhor these tactics. They belong to Rove and should die with him. And I always denounced the tactics used against Edwards even though I was a Kucinich supporter at the time. Supporting any kind of dirty politics makes one dirty.

[desertflamingo]

20. i agree with you.

i feel it. i don't know if i'll have my house by the end of the year. i'm educated. skilled. and my skill and the lack of work associated with it has little to do with nafta. it has to do with republicans. it has to do with greed. it has to do with a leisure economy coming to a grinding halt. it has to do with a shitty dollar. it has to do with soaring fuel prices. soaring health costs. soaring food prices. crashing property values. hillary gets it. i can feel it when she speaks. obama could give a shit less except when he tells me how poor his granny is in africa - you know, the one he apparently can't see his way to send money to so she can get running water. i could give a shit less about his grandmother. if he treats us like he's treated her, well, no thanks. he's just the wrong guy. we need a woman to take this broken, sick and disheartened country and mother us back to greatness. we need a tough mother who gets it and who cares. it's the economy, stupid.

[desertflamingo]

21. oops...

double post

[Barack_America]

23. She may be running as a populist Dem.

But Hillary Clinton is no populist Dem.

[desertflamingo]

39. may i...

just throw this out there? without getting eaten alive? i would suggest that it would be very difficult for someone like hillary to meet people all over this country as SHE does... hearing their stories... really getting up close and personal with their pain and not have it affect her. i haven't seen obama in that way with the people. his speeches move people, but i don't see him as moved. he speechifies. i think hillary is a more empathetic person and i submit that it is changing her. i'm not saying i would agree that she's a 100% populist dem, but what i am saying is that this experience could be changing her dramatically. i was not for her until recently. something about her has changed and that's what i think it is. just sayin'...

[McCamy Taylor]

44. Well said!

[Barack_America]

45. I understand that, but if I may...

Some people like to advertise these things for their own benefit, while others believe in keeping them personal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4882762&mesg_id=4882762

[babylonsister]

28. That is a boring title, because Obama wasn't in it. Heh. :loveya: nt

[Liquorice]

38. That's how I view Hillary.

She is the candidate of the working class--for people who desperately need real change real fast. She knows more than perhaps anyone else what Bush did to mess things up and how to fix what he has broken. She is also an incredibly tough fighter, and I can't think of anyone else I'd rather have fighting for UHC.

[hfojvt]

41. it proves that there are enough people she fooled

fooled into believing she is a populist. At least she pretended to be once the economy slowed.

[Emit]

42. I don't know, McCamy Taylor

Somehow, Edwards seemed a lot more sincere then than Clinton appears now.

[AdHocSolver]

43. I hate to burst your bubble, but Clinton said in debate that she would have health care reform...

by the end of her SECOND term. Translation: you won't get health care reform from Hillary.

Why not? First, she assumes that she would automatically have TWO terms, forgetting that there is an election for president every four years. Second, in a second term, she would be a lame-duck president, which means that she would lack the clout needed to push through health care reform legislation. If health care reform isn't accomplished in 2009, it isn't going to happen. Moreover, Clinton assumes that in a second term she would have a Democratic Congress to work with. If Congress goes Republican in 2012, she wouldn't do anything in a second term.

Clinton's message to the people in that statement: don't expect health care reform from a Clinton presidency.

[anamandujano]

49. It means she KNOWS how difficult it's going to be. She will get

it started and many sick and needy families will see something good happening.

She obviously doesn't expect the Repukes (and some of our wonderful spineless Dems) to give her what she wants without a fight.

She knows the issue inside out, and will approach it seriously.

Expect the insurance companies to wage another expensive war on her, but this time the people know that they were sold a bill of goods and will support her.

[americanstranger]

47. Hillary, a Populist?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

She's a Washington insider. She campaigned against Edwards, in case you've forgotten.

- as

[McCamy Taylor]

50. Hillary will win Pa. and the ticket will be.... Hillary/Obama!

:applause:

'Cause that is the one that will win this fall, and the Democratic Party is run by smart people now.

[amborin]

59. a great idea

[susankh4]

87. You got that right!

We are heaidng into the home stretch now... and the final lap will be our walk (together) down Pennsylvania Ave.

Woohoo!:toast:

[OzarkDem]

110. Sounds good

We need to do what's best for the country, not what's best for Obama's career path.

[eridani]

58. Hillary will sell you to the insurance companies again, just like in 19914 n/t

[HughBeaumont]

62. Do "populists" support free trade and job offshoring?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GC01Df03.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/538674.cms
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/593175.cms

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhLBSLLIhUs
Hillary pushes for more h1-b visas and outsourcing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLNOSGM2jK4
Hillary Clinton's hypocrisy (part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgdrh2Bc95M
Hillary Clinton's hypocrisy (part 2)

Is every working class American NUTS for thinking she's pro-labor? Populists don't make statements such as these.

We HAD a real pro-labor candidate in John Edwards and he was labeled an "angry guy" from the "Michael Moore wing of the Democrap party". Unbelievable. Sure wish we could have him back, as I have an immense problem with a potential nominee that has straight-outta-the-Heritage Foundation views on offshoring and believed the worst president this nation's ever had when lives were on the line. Twice. And this mindset is on BOTH sides of the fence. UNconscionable.

[nebula]

71. Shillary a populist??

:rofl:

Wow, her supporters are totally deluded.

She voted in favor of Bush's tax incentives for companies to move jobs offshore.

If HC is President, expect 1000s of high-paying tech jobs to continue fleeing to India, as they have under Bush.

[HughBeaumont]

74. I'm reading this stuff thinking "wow, SOMEone needs to take their crack pipe away".

Hillary is about as pro-labor as I am pro-war.

And anyone who asserts that free trade hasn't hurt America needs to take a drive through Northeast Ohio, which is littered with ghost towns and giant high-grassed hulks of abandoned plants that used to employ people. That's very much a result of NAFTA, GATT and the WTO. Oh, and having a whiskey-throttle dry drunk at the helm who would rather throw trillions away on a useless oil occupation instead of repairing very real damage here. Offshoring/inshoring to cheaper or visa'd workers took care of the white collar jobs.

They also need to see the movie The Big One, which documents a whole TON of people who got left out of "The Clinton Prosperity", most of them blue collar workers. That's when the whole "Free Trade" debacle got underway.

This past Christmas, my cousin, who isn't really political, said "is it just me or has the country just been going down the shitter for everyone these past 10-11 years?" I find it interesting that he didn't say "seven". He's a former Delphi worker who had to take a buyout last August and hasn't found meaningful work since. This started before Bewsh took the White House hostage and continued 100 fold under him.

[JTFrog]

67. JFC. Hillary a populist? Fuck this party. I'm out. This is the most ridiculous shit I have

ever witnessed in my lifetime.

Hillaryland is the most fucked up alternate opposite universe one could have imagined. Good luck with it.

[melody]

73. No, she's not a populist by any stretch of the imagination

In fact, many of her policies are specifically anti-populist in form and ideology.

[bowens43]

77. What is proves is thatshe could only win

by openly becoming the nasty , cheating , power crazed washington hatchet woman we all knew her to be.

Lying , cheating, swiftboating, fear mongering are the only thinks that work for the dragon lady.

[AdHocSolver]

127. Please, do NOT besmirch dragons.

We have a very nice poster on DU who goes by the username Dragonlady. She supports Obama, which demonstrates that dragons are very intelligent.

A more descriptive monicker for Hillary, that describes her method of campaigning, would be The Serpent.

[Inspired]

78. Hillary will never obtain what John Edwards already has.

The presidency isn't the ultimate prize in life.

I firmly believe now that John Edwards is too good for the presidency.

And WE....well we deserve what we get thanks to a a voting public who has been clueless so far.

[OneBlueSky]

79. um . . . bullshit . . . n/t

.

[lostnotforgotten]

81. Hillary Is A bush War Supporter - She Will Never Get My Vote

Even in the general Election.

[Amanita]

83. You say populist, BO supporters say "candidate of the unwashed"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4885819

[NC_Nurse]

88. Hillary used every dirty trick and smear in the book to win it.

That's what won, not her policies.

[rodeodance]

91. BO started the Neg. campaign with Repug Harry and Louise--then he believe DRUGE!!

the list goes on and on----it is BO who played dirty. Hillary will not stand by and be wimpy. get used to it--when BO pushes dirty she WILL push back. Voters are wise.

[NC_Nurse]

93. Who are Harry and Louise? I'm not sure what you are referring too.

[rodeodance]

130. The REpug health care ad.

[rodeodance]

89. You are right--many voters are NOT single-issue voters!!

[casus belli]

92. I like how loosely the term "proves" is used around here. n/t

[mdmc]

95. she is still a corporate dem

Just cause bush won OH in 2004 didn't make him a populist

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

96. LOL

Yea a state that went red in 2004 and in 2000 is a bench mark for whats 'progressive' especially when every Urban area went to Obama...

Maybe we should look at Minnesota, which, has not went red in my lifetime!

[Raiden]

97. By this measure...John McCain is a Populist Dem?

George W. Bush...Populist Dem?

McCain won the Ohio primary and GWB won Ohio in 2000 and 2004. Ohio hasn't had a good track record of supporting Populists. I blame masochism; Ohio has been voting against their interests for quite a while. I don't want to disparage Hillary's impressive victory even though I'm an Obama supporter, but the substance of this post is lacking.



Hillary's supporters need to understand the following...

(1) Hillary was always favored to win Ohio
(2) Yesterday did NOT constitute a comeback for Hillary because she was ALWAYS ahead
(3) 20 pt. lead down to a 10 pt. lead = bleeding support
(4) Hillary is STILL behind in the delegate race...why can't she close the deal?


Hillary won yesterday and it was a necessary win for her. Today she is still behind in the pledged delegate count, the superdelegates are still flocking to Obama, Obama still leads in fundraising, and the remaining contests look very favorable for him. The race continues and may the best candidate win.

[Carolina]

98. as if

you can separate the war from the economy!

All the trillions spent over there deplete our treasury of $$$$$ needed stateside for domestic issues. It may not be that simple yet it is.

Those you can't put 1+1 together... sheesh.

And for those who think HRC is such a fighter who'll get things done, I ask where has she been the last 7 years. Going along to get ahead! Funny we never heard and "shame on you, GWB!"

[RiverStone]

100. Tell me that when she leads in the popular vote...

Nationally, she still trails Obama by appox. 600K - that is, adding up ALL the votes to date.

[redqueen]

101. That's a joke, right?

Selling Hillary, Ms. DLC, as a populist?

Good luck with that!

[Carolina]

107. touche, RQ

some folks are truly delusional ... shame on them! LOL

[OzarkDem]

109. This is EXACTLY the message Ohio voters sent

Enough with the slick marketing campaigns pushing a candidate with little knowledge or experience. Voters see it for what it is. A fad that is quickly fading.

Every week the economic outlook grows grimmer and grimmer. The number of people willing to take a gamble on an unknown candidate like Obama have continued to shrink with each passing week. They want someone with experience to fix things in DC and get the country back on track. Period.

All the negative campaigning Obama is proposing will get him nowhere. People want our country put back on track and they want someone experienced to do it.

[blm]

116. The voters being manipulated are the ones who think Clintons oppose Bushes and their agenda.

I'd like to see someone prove it using Bill's book and his actual record of governance where every time he had to make a choice between protecting GHWBush and his cronies or the American people and Democratic party, Bill sided with the secrecy and privilege of the closed government elite he serves.

[AdHocSolver]

137. Knowing where the Clintons stand on issues, I was an Anybody But Clinton Democrat from the start.

Someone called Bill Clinton the best Republican president this country ever had.

Bill pushed through NAFTA, deregulated the media, signed off on repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act (which enabled the practices which brought us the mortgage meltdown, among other financial fiascos), pushed so-called welfare reform, etc., etc. As for health care reform, he couldn't have taken it seriously, since he outsourced that task to Hillary who had no political clout to use to get any real reform. It was Bill's responsibility to help the people, not contract such an important job out to an "intern". It seems that real "health care reform" was of secondary importance to Hillary's getting some insider politicking experience.

Listening to Obama, the more I believe that he at least understands the issues facing the country, and since understanding a problem is the first step in solving it, I am willing to take a chance on him becoming President. If the only alternative to Obama is a Republican or Clinton, then I enthusiastically support Obama.

[Emillereid]

111. Hillary is no Edwards. It was her negative fear-mongering that put her over the top.

Unless Ohioans are so naive to believe that the people who brought them NAFTA are really going to help them or that the wife of the president who repealed the banking safeguards put in place by FDR is really going to solve the banking crisis or that the woman who botched the health care issue in the early 90s is going to get it right this time.

[mmonk]

115. The DLC is not populist. It's top down and has run us into a ditch.

[ProSense]

118. Ohio: 8% of voters earned under $15,000/yr. They split 50-50 between Hillary and Obama.

Ohio says nothing about being populist, and everything about dirty politics.

Hillary voted twice to extend Bush's tax cuts, she's hardly populist.

[AtomicKitten]

121. Actually the data shows racism alive and well in Ohio.

Which Hillary baited with her campaign pushing the Muslim email slur and with this doctored ad:

[Marie26]

122. That's so unfair

Like saying that Wisconsin voted for Obama because they're all sexists. How is it that Iowa isn't racist, yet Ohio is? Or is it just any state that doesn't go for Obama?

[AtomicKitten]

123. what is unfair (and shameful) is that she baited racism in Ohio

[Marie26]

126. Obama lost Ohio because of NAFTA

Obama people can blame Ohioans all they want, or say that Ohio voters are racists, uneducated, stupid (I've seen all three here). But the fact is that Obama shot himself in the foot on NAFTA & economic issues. Rather than blaming the voters, it would help if the Obama campaign learned from this loss.

[AtomicKitten]

131. The NAFTA big lie was subterfuge to distract from her being exposed for lying about NAFTA .

The BIG LIE has since been exposed and debunked. Canada apparently contacted and spoke with both campaigns, and they apologized profusely for mischaracterizing Obama's NAFTA stance.

edited for links: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4905565&mesg_id=4905565
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/5/131156/5021/187/469677

Hillary, however, and here's the money point, has lied repeatedly and continues to lie about her former support of NAFTA documented by a litany of quotes from her.

That's the real story.

No worries, though. I fully expect Obama to crush her larynx with his boot going forward.

[Marie26]

134. Nice try

But no dice. Canada "apparantly" spoke w/both campaigns? You're just spinning now. Ohio is PARANOID about NAFTA. Most voters HATE what NAFTA has done to their jobs & their communities. Many rust belt industrial towns have now become ghost towns. That's why the whole Ohio debate focused on NAFTA - and Obama tried to pander to Ohio voters by saying that he'd get rid of NAFTA. Then a story surfaces that Obama's aide gave a "wink & a nod" to Canada by saying that it was campaign rhetoric, not policy. That goes to voters' worst suspicions - that they are just being pandered to & used so that another member of the free-trade elite can get into office. Then it turns out that Obama's top aide is a big-time free trade advocate. That was widely reported in Ohio. Then Obama tries to deny any meeting, pretend the whole thing never happened, hopes it'll go away. And then the Canadian memo leaks & Obama is busted. Then Obama tries to say he had bad information. It was a mess from start to finish. He tried to pander to & mislead Ohio voters about his own position on NAFTA & later mislead voters about the meeting w/the Canadian consulate. Obama richly deserved this loss.

[AtomicKitten]

136. The truth is impervious to your spin. (nt)

[Marie26]

151. Or your preconceptions. nt

[AdHocSolver]

140. IIRC, Bill CLINTON pushed through NAFTA. The damage began on Bill's watch.

If her "experience" was gleaned by being in the White House on Bill's watch, why would anyone conclude that she has any populist leanings when Bill actively pushed through NAFTA. The logical disconnect here just amazes me.

Obama's reference to NAFTA included the idea that it needed to be modified to help American workers. I would go further than just modifying it, and I would include the IMF, the World Bank, and several other agreements for "modification".

However, I do not believe that Hillary would actively undo one of her husband's pet projects such as NAFTA. For anyone to conclude that Hillary is in any way, shape, or form a populist, takes a GIANT leap of faith not supported by the facts or her history.

[Marie26]

142. My post wasn't about Hillary

But about why Obama lost Ohio. Hillary might not be a populist, but Obama is not either. And Hillary has been much less supportive of NAFTA than Bill Clinton, and in this campaign, she has promised to re-evaluate the treaty. Most importantly, she didn't mislead voters about having a meeting w/the Canadian consulate like the Obama campaign did. That's really what did him in.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[McCamy Taylor]

148. Calling Ohio Dems "racist" because they vote along econonic lines is shameless.

MSNBC set up this latest divide and conquer maneuver by tossing out the statistic that 1 in 5 Ohio White voters considered race. Well, I will bet that more than 1 in 5 Ohio Black voters and way more than 1 in 5 Texas voters of all ethnicities considered race.

However, the number one issue with voters in Ohio and the NUMBER ONE issue with those who voted for Hillary was money (as in their lack of it) and the economy. This is exactly how working class voters of all races should be voting. If we could get the American voter to pull the lever according to its economic self interest rather than out of some misguided sense of solidarity with a candidate who shares a religion or an ethnicity or a race or the endorsement of a celebrity or who looks good on TV, the workers of America would take control of this country.

If this had happened this election, John Edwards would have been our nominee, and we would all be that much closer to a better country for ourselves and our children.

It is Obama's own fault that he has been afraid to talk about populist issues for fear of drawing negative MSM attention the way that Edwards did. Obama tries to play it safe, courting Republicans with kissy talk about Reagan and neglecting his own Party's base of working class people who can not pay their mortgages or bills. This is one reason I can not respect Obama. He is not a real fighter. He only wants battles that he knows he can win. He only wants to champion the underdog if it will get him general approbation. He would not even have tried to fight for health care in the 1990s.

He paid the price for his timidity in Ohio, because Dems in Ohio know what a real fight is about.

And now people like atomic kitten are crying "Those working class voters in Ohio who don't have jobs or health care are so racist because they will not take the chance on poverty for eight more years so that the nation can have its first Black president."

And she cites as "proof" a Right Wing smear and a photo of a candidate whom I have already seen look every shade from White to darkly tanned depending upon the light he is in. Was it supposed to be some kind of secret that his dad was from Africa? I wont tell if you don't tell.

But the worst part is for this ridiculous accusation to be true, White Democrats in Ohio must all be closet KKK members---just like their sisters in New Hampshire.

The citizens of Ohio have been treated like shit by the Republicans. Nixon mowed them down at Kent State. Ken Blackwell and Karl Rove stole their vote. And now Obama voters are calling them racist. If I was from Ohio, I would be hopping mad.

[AtomicKitten]

152. Since you seem confused, I'll spell out what SHAMEFUL looks like:

THIS is shameful and disgusting, and Clinton has out-racist her way out of the nomination.

Clinton campaign Iowa Chair pushes Muslim email smear:
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/13820.html

Clinton campaign acknowledges passing on Muslim smear:
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2007/12/hillary_campaign_acknowledges_that_hillary_backer_passed_along_obama_madrassa_email.php

Clinton hedges on Muslim-Obama smear:
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/14758.html

Clinton camp behind Muslim email smear of Obama:
http://fromtheleft.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/hillary-clintons-camp-behind-email-smear-of-obama/

Clinton campaign wraps Obama in Muslim garb:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080225/cm_thenation/45290136

Clinton surrogate, Shaheen, wonders if Obama sold drugs:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1207/Shaheen_Did_Obama_sell_drugs.html

Clinton surrogate, Kerrey, uses Muslim and madrassa repeatedly:
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/12/a_madrassa_bob_kerrey_a_madras.php

Clinton's racism exposed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDHbHcOV1N4

Clinton campaign making Obama "blacker"



http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/5/131156/5021/187/469677

[Kukesa]

153. Good post. Good logic. Thanx. n/t

[AtomicKitten]

154. thanks

cheers :)

[Marie26]

125. She actually is

And it is ironic that the DLC-candidate is the most populist one left, but that's the fact. Clinton has incorporated much of Edward's populist message & released specific plans to fix the ecoomy, help working-class families, stop forclosures, get universal health care, etc. Obama is progressive on some issues, but on the economy he seems to favor free-market corporate principles, which really hurt him in Ohio. He couldn't fool people into thinking he was an economic populist & shouldn't have even tried.

[RBInMaine]

138. The "populist" who takes more lobbyist money than the R's???

[cascadiance]

144. I think this post deserves the "oxymoran" award of the week...

Populist?

:rofl: :rofl:

[midora]

145. Brung it on!

Obama will dance with the ones who brung him when he gets into office---and he is being backed by a bunch of affluent people

Brung? Is that a word? Some of you Clnton fans are worrying me with your grammar and vocabulary issues.

You seem very enthusiastic about your candidate. That's great. But I wouldn't call HRC enthusiastic about anything except winning the Demcratic nomination at any cost. She is running a despicable campaign, and I don't want someone that unethical in the White House.

[McCamy Taylor]

149. Oh Lordy! Did I offend your eyes with a Southern aphorism? Why, I do apologize!

We all is so blessed to have you high and mighty refined folks hold your noses and come down here to mingle with us plebeians to shed some of the light of your refinement upon us. Oh yes, indeed! I don't know when was the last time I felt so enlightened.

Get a clue, midora. You will not win friends and votes within the Democratic Party if you act like a High School English teacher with a stick stuck up your you know what.

[midora]

150. Look, Buddy, I'm From the South

and I don't use the aphorism "brung", so don't use that Son of the South crap on me. You're the one with the stick up your nether regions so so chill out.

[theboss]

156. Regarding Edwards, by definition, a populist needs to be popular

Just sayin'. I know he had his supporters. Hell, I was one in '04. By the guy has one two elections in his life. North Carolina Senate race. South Carolina primary. That's it. That's the list.

(My mom - a two term city councilwoman - has him tied).