I just watched last weeks "real Time " and Bill Maher announced that Americans owe blacks a lot more

[saracat]

than they owe women by way of explaining his support for Barack.Unfortunately, that is some of the feeling that I get on DU lately. Many posters who think in terms of a historic race just dismiss gender as insignificant.But racial identity is huge.

I saw a whole different side of DU as Hillary was attacked for defending Chelsea after Schuster used the disgusting term "pimping her out" to describe her campaigning for her mother. I saw Hillary derided and Schuster defended.These same poster would have gone batshit crazy if the term "pimping" had been applied to Obama in any way and would have screamed racism from the rooftops. But sexism is perfectly alright.

I am becoming more and more revolted lately with the entertainment and the news media.But I am also revolted by those in our party who defend and allow this type of discourse to continue.Neither race or gender are good arguments for a presidential race but if we are "forced" to make a comparison, women of ALL races have been subjugated since the beginning of time.And I would remind Maher that African American males got the right to vote before women did and African American males still earn more cents on the dollar than women do.

For those who say they want change, or as Maher said, "want to see something completely different", Barack is , still after all, a male and we have had a shit load of those in the WH , whatever their color !

And , in the interest of full diclosure, I did, originally support a "male" John Edwards! and Hillary was NOT my first choice.

[Levgreee]

1. your post is based off innacurate observations

"
I saw a whole different side of DU as Hillary was attacked for defending Chelsea after Schuster used the disgusting term "pimping her out" to describe her campaigning for her mother. I saw Hillary derided and Schuster defended.These same poster would have gone batshit crazy if the term "pimping" had been applied to Obama in any way and would have screamed racism from the rooftops. But sexism is perfectly alright."

The majority of posters, even Obama posters, agreed that it was an offensive and innappropriate remark.
Thanks for your inaccurate, generalized judgment of DUers based on a small amount of posters, though.

[saracat]

3. Maybe I should link you to the thread I saw? But that would be calling out.

[murielm99]

8. I saw threads defending the term "pimping out"

and sneering because people "over forty" did not understand that it was a new, hip term.

I put someone on ignore for her outrageous comments in that thread.

We are all going to have to come together when this primary fight is over. We are going to have to support the nominee, no matter who it is. Some people here are making that much harder than it should be.

The OP is not inaccurate.

[saracat]

12. Thank you. Can you imagine if the song" It hard out there for a pimp" were suggested for Obama?

People would erupt and no one would defend the use of the term as "hip" I guarantee it.And Schuster was not using the term in the "hip" way as in "pimp my ride". He used it the old fashioned way and didn't claim otherwise.

[cgrindley]

66. That part is true

pimpin' is a new hip term. Dude said "pimping" which is totally different.

[Seabiscuit]

88. I'm over 60, and I understand the phrase.

And there's nothing "hip" about the context in which Schuster used it.

[Skittles]

2. why do you listen to that smarmy piece of shit

he is disgusting

[Adsos Letter]

4. Sing it out saracat...

I've always liked the sound of "Madame President"...and it's about damn time, too.

[Straight Shooter]

5. Bill Maher dated Ann Coulter. He can be one sandwich short of a picnic at times.

History of voting rights:

* Landless white men: 1856
* Non-white men: 1870 — See: Fifteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution
* Women: 1920 — See: Nineteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution
* Native Americans: 1924
* Residents of the District of Columbia: 1961 — See: Twenty-third Amendment to the United States Constitution
* Adults between 18 and 21: 1971 — See: Twenty-sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Lots of things to argue about what voting rights mean and the discrimination issue, but I don't want to vote for Barack based on Maher's argument for it. If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, then we should have a female Native American as our next president.

Bill Maher just likes Barack's style.

edit/clarity

[saracat]

7. He never "dated " Ann. He said they weren't even particular friends. They just went to the same

places. Bill is a misogynist.He doesn't "just like Barack's style." And it seems many on DU also have no problem with sexism. It is more permissible than racism. I find this disturbing.

[Straight Shooter]

9. My mistake. I thought he dated her, and had positive feelings for her.

But he's still one sandwich short of a picnic.

Sexism has always been more permissible than racism in certain venues, especially in the workplace. Notice that women got the right to vote long after men of color got the right to vote.

[saracat]

10. But the fact that it is being touted on a board such as DU is very sad.

Women have really made little progress.

[NJObamaWoman]

13. Correction...White and Latino women has made little progress...Black Women even less :(

[saracat]

18. I agree!

[NJObamaWoman]

21. This is one of the reasons why I hate American Womens groups

and hate when people talk about supporting women because to me if feels that most people fail to realize that black women have it the worst in America. People continue to forget that its my sistas who are suffering the most from Aids :(

[Popol Vuh]

34. Have had it bad? Yes

But have had it the worst? No

Nobody has had it worse than Native Americans. Nobody.

I am not trying to take away from the point you're making about injustices inflicted upon certain groups of people. I am merely trying to set the record straight as to the accuracy of your statement with respect to your use of the word "worst".

[NJObamaWoman]

38. My bad I have said in this post that I do think Native Americans

have had it bad as well. I just don't want to be lumped in with White Women.

[redqueen]

116. "I just don't want to be lumped in with White Women."

Holy shit.

*sigh*

[Levgreee]

11. Racism was extremely rampant even after black males got the right to vote

and, while not diminishing sexism at all, blacks went through some very horrible things, such as slavery, lynching, segregation, etc., that females did not.

Right now minorities are in worse shape to women, when it comes to work opportunities and education. The differences are very significant, comparing the % of women who go to college(60% of people in college now), and the wages that women get(near equal to men, after accounting for differences in occupational preferences and hours of work), compared to minorities.

So how about we stop this "which has been worse" one-upping. They have both been EXTREMELY prevalent, and damaging.

I find it personally offensive that a person would try to diminish the racist tribulations other groups have gone through, because they "think" that sexism has been worse, even though they haven't been able to live and experience both sides. People who dismiss racism, while accusing people of dismissing sexism, are hypocritical.

[saracat]

15. Since when are women NOT minorities? What "minorities are in

"worse shape than women"? White college educated women? They, too. earn less than a minority college educated male.And are subject to more crime and abuse. What the heck are you talking about?

[Levgreee]

22. some of your claims are innacurate

"worse shape than women"? White college educated women? They, too. earn less than a minority college educated male.


FALSE. This has been debunked, women and men earn comparable wages in almost all occupations, when comparing level of education, hours worked, experience, etc.


"And are subject to more crime and abuse. What the heck are you talking about?"

Are you aware of the epidemic male minorities face, of being involved in violent crimes and being imprisoned? The percentage for males is higher than females. Males are more likely to be dragged into the destructive gang/drug/etc. lifestyles.


I don't know if you know what you are talking about(an article would help). I am not completely aware of the violence towards female minorities, but I know the violence towards male minorities is a VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM. Please don't try to diminish their hardships.

[NJObamaWoman]

25. I agree with this. Its sad to speak with Minority women who FEAR

for this sons everyday of their lives. I think Sexism and Racism is equal in America. I don't think Sexism is anymore important than Racism. Both are evil.

[saracat]

30. And don't you please try to completely ignore the hardships of women not like yourself. Women are

beong brought in from Europe every day from Russia and eastern erupe and sold into slavery.Frequently they are young girls who may have been sold by their parents or kidnapped..There is a huge problem in human trafficing and the fact that they aren't minorities doesn't make it less.

[NJObamaWoman]

33. Please don't forget the fact that in Africa and the Carbs. There are

high numbers of women being affected with HIV/Aids. Even in the USA Black women are highly affected. Yet nothing is truly being done about this. My sista's are dying and still nothing is getting done. :(

[NJObamaWoman]

17. Yes Black females went through that too plus they were RAPED

made to be Nannies and house servants to WHITE women and men etc. I'm tired of some women wanting to group Black women like myself with other women. Sorry Darlings black women have suffered more because not only have we been victims of racism & discriminated against we have also been spit on by white women.

[saracat]

20. That is true but it doesn't mean that other women have not been victimized.

Wome have all been victims of their gender no matter where they have lived. I would agree that minority wome have had it worse but any degree is wrong.

[NJObamaWoman]

23. True its wrong. I just don't want to be lumped in with other women IMHO

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

24. Black lesbians wouldn't want to be grouped with black straight women

They probably wouldn't like it, because they've suffered more than black heterosexual women. They've been the victims of racism, sexism and homophobia. Spit on by white women, and shunned for being gay by straight women, of all races.

[NJObamaWoman]

27. Very true.I just don't think we can lump all black women in the same

category as other Women in America.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

28. I love black women, my favorite person in the world is a black woman

My favorite entertainer, Donna Summer.

[NJObamaWoman]

31. I love Black women too ;p

My Fav. black woman is my mom. My mom not only faced racism (from white males & females, & latinos) but discrimination while being a police officer raising a black daughter as a single parent.

[NOLALady]

75. You beat me to it.

My favorite black woman was my Mom, also. :hi:

[saracat]

35. But we do all share a gender whether some like it or not.I do not want to see my Black sisters

abused or the Latinas or the Orientals or the White women or the Native Americans. Or the Lesbians , or the transexuals. Why should be stand for anyone being discriminated against for gender? This wasn't about race but about gender.

[NJObamaWoman]

37. My problem is that I have yet to see white women support Black women

when I see an outpouring of white women supporting our causes and telling their husbands or significants to support us as well then I will feel happy. Again I'm going back to the way white women had us wash their floors and take care of this kids. I feel passionately about this situation because I work in a town where black women get the scraps. I see to many blacks having to be servants and nannies to whites and treated in disgusting ways.

Yes darling it is about RACE and GENDER because I'm tired of being told to support White women and get shitted on when I ask these same women to support us and our needs.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17897142
http://www.raceintheworkplace.com/2008/01/11/the-corporate-divide-between-black-and-white-women/

[saracat]

43. Actually since the 70's I haven't seen any outpouring of support for ANY women

regardless of color. For myself, I have always supported ALL women and not taken race into consideration for my support.And I myself have had to work at various jobs "scrubbing floors and taking care of kids" and been treated like dirt by some folks. My mom worked her way through college being a Nanny and scrubbing floors and she was actually spit upon by her employer for not being of the same religiious persuation.I do not claim to be equal in experience but their are some gender based experiences which are shared. I assume while not all of us have the added burden of racism, most have experienced sexism or sexual harrassment to one degree or another.

[Chovexani]

109. Thank you for bringing this up

I'm a bi black woman. EVERYONE hates me. :P

[NOLALady]

74. They also spit on the children.

[Straight Shooter]

90. You make legitimate points.

In my first post, I noted "Lots of things to argue about what voting rights mean and the discrimination issue."

The hatred and abuse and murder of blacks took place, for the most part, in public, a hideous form of domestic terrorism. The hatred and abuse and murder of women, which is sexism taken to the extreme, has taken place within their own homes. And don't get me started on prejudice and violence against gays, who have become the new "safe target" of hatred and violence and hidden agendas of bigotry.

MURDER. Every day four women die in this country as a result of domestic violence, the euphemism for murders and assaults by husbands and boyfriends. That's approximately 1,400 women a year, according to the FBI. The number of women who have been murdered by their intimate partners is greater than the number of soldiers killed in the Vietnam War.

BATTERING. Although only 572,000 reports of assault by intimates are officially reported to federal officials each year, the most conservative estimates indicate two to four million women of all races and classes are battered each year. At least 170,000 of those violent incidents are serious enough to require hospitalization, emergency room care or a doctor's attention.

SEXUAL ASSAULT. Every year approximately 132,000 women report that they have been victims of rape or attempted rape, and more than half of them knew their attackers. It's estimated that two to six times that many women are raped, but do not report it. Every year 1.2 million women are forcibly raped by their current or former male partners, some more than once.

THE TARGETS. Women are 10 times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate. Young women, women who are separated, divorced or single, low- income women and African-American women are disproportionately victims of assault and rape. Domestic violence rates are five times higher among families below poverty levels, and severe spouse abuse is twice as likely to be committed by unemployed men as by those working full time. Violent attacks on lesbians and gay men have become two to three times more common than they were prior to 1988.

http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

[NOLALady]

73. Men and women of color had the right to vote.

But, most could not vote until the passage of the Civil Rights bill of 1965. The penalty for trying was death in many cases.

[spooky3]

86. that was only partially true

in certain areas of the country many people of color were threatened and prohibited from voting (in the South for example):

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/intro/intro_b.htm

but it is certainly not true that "most could not vote."

[Straight Shooter]

91. I stand corrected. Thank you. n/t

[asdjrocky]

81. Trust me, I know Bill, he never dated that woman.

[Straight Shooter]

93. I was going on hearsay. I never watch his show. I was wrong.

I won't repeat that rumor again. :)

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

6. It was stupid to pit women and blacks against each other

Maher also defended Imus, which was the last time he really pissed me off.

[Triana]

14. WELL SAID Saracat

I agree 100%. I am SICK of the way SEXISM is dismissed as a non-issue (when it is STILL A HUGE ISSUE) - and the FACT that it is could NOT be more in evidence than it has been lately on DU and in the LAMEstream media lately.

It's RAMPANT.

edit: and as you can see, I was an Edwards supporter too - now, I support essentially no one but I am SICK of the sexism HERE on DU and in the media lately in regards to Hillary (and by association - ALL women).

[DemBones DemBones]

55. Hear, hear!!! There has always been sexism at DU

but it's getting worse and it's very distressing that many of the sexist posts are by posters claiming to be female.

It's funny how opposing Obama makes you a racist in the eyes of Obamaniacs but opposing Clinton doesn't make you a sexist, even when you talk about her "pimping" her daughter in the campaign.

Perhaps many here are too young to remember that the Clintons really did a good job of keeping Chelsea out of the public eye when Bill was president. They didn't use her for photo ops. She'd be seen a bit at the conventions, along with the Gore children, but her privacy was protected much like Jackie Kennedy protected her children.

But Chelsea is an adult now and to suggest that her participation in the campaign means that she or her mother is "pimping her out" shows a real undercurrent of sexism in society and at DU, of all places where it should not be.

A woman who chooses to participate in a political campaign, not to mention a woman who is in politics and trying to improve this country, should not be subjected to such abuse.

[BluegrassDem]

16. Maher is saying that black people have had a much rougher time in American than women

Particularly white women. White women weren't enslaved, beaten, lynched, KKK'd, and endured centuries of hostility and blatant discrimination. Yes, women have been in a subjugated position, but you can't equate to that slavery and Jim Crow. After all, white women were at least allowed to read. Slaves were beaten if their master learned that they could read. So there's no question that black people have had a rougher life in America than white women. It's not a basis for choosing Obama over Hillary, but factually, Maher is correct.

[saracat]

26. He is not fatually correct and neither are you.White women were are are still

enslaved. What do you think white slavery and prostitution rings are? Wome weren't even considered human in the Bible and the Church even debated if they had a soul. Some religions place animals above women in value. Women in this country had NO property rights and could be committed to a mental institutionon just the "word" of their husband.. It was considered legal in many states to beat your wife.We STILL have states where spousal rape is leagl! Are you unaware of this?

[NJObamaWoman]

45. Hmmm there are black slave and prostitution rings as well.

There are many African women who are brought over to America to work in beauty shops etc for males. They are beaten and work long hours for little to no money.

[saracat]

Human ntrafficing is a horror no matter to whom it is donre. We also have slaves brought in from

China and Mexico. I was working with some friends who are trying to bring attention to the plight of these women.It is a true scandal.

[emilyg]

19. Good post.

[Popol Vuh]

29. Historically not accurate

....but if we are "forced" to make a comparison, women of ALL races have been subjugated since the beginning of time.

Study more Precolonial American History. Also, throughout world history there are many examples of woman being arbiters of power and wealth. If I am not mistaken even in Celtic Druidic history woman were equals socially and politically with men - although I am not as versed with western history as I am with precolonial American History.

So please think before you make inaccurate statements about history. Woman are but one in a long list of people who have been long subjugated.

[saracat]

32. "Celtic" women? Please. They were hardly a world power.

Greek women had a certain amount of rights as did wealthy Romans but they were rare.In general, women were dominated as a result of religious culture.Even great female leaders such as Elizabeth 1 of England experienced dicrimination.And she never brought gender equality to England.

[Popol Vuh]

36. Like I said

Western history is not my most versed subject. Nevertheless, your above statement is absolutely inaccurate. As I said above, you are totally leaving out many cultures.

Woman are only one in a long list of long subjugated people. So please think before posting inaccurate statements.

[saracat]

39. Throughout history women were the most commonly subjugated minority. They were not the ONLY

minority subjugated. However women were always part of any subjugated minority .

[Popol Vuh]

41. That is not accurate

Only in your westernized way of thinking do you see it that way. Your statement is not correct. Sorry.

[okasha]

97. It's as close to correct as makes little difference.

Pre-Christian Celtic women were an exception among European cultures. And even there, we're not talking about all Celtic women. The Celts kept slaves, just as other contemporary cultures did, and maintained a fairly rigid social hierarchy based on the material worth of each person.

Some Native American cultures had functional equality between the sexes, especially the Eastern nations, but others were just as patriarchal as anything to be found in Europe.

[NJObamaWoman]

42. As a History Major who studied Womens history that is very true.

Women have been discriminated against throughout history. It funny because the time period I wish I could live in is during Ancient Egypt because women held a lot of powerful positions.

[saracat]

46. But just as today, it depended on who you were related to or who you knew!

If you were part of the royal family or influential it was one thing, but the female slaves didn't have it so hot.And the ones likely to treat them the worst were the female mistresses!

[Popol Vuh]

47. History major from which cultural perspective?

It funny because the time period I wish I could live in is during Ancient Egypt because women held a lot of powerful positions.

And woman today don't hold a lot of powerful positions in this country? Woman today as with yesterday throughout the world have many examples of being treated as equals and holding positions of power.

Again, woman are only but one of a long list of people of have suffered, and, they can't accurately make the claim that they have had it worse. That's just simply not accurate.

[Donnachaidh]

82. LINKS.

Making claims without links?

[Popol Vuh]

40. P.S.

"Celtic" women? Please. They were hardly a world power.

Greek women had a certain amount of rights as did wealthy Romans but they were rare.In general, women were dominated as a result of religious culture.Even great female leaders such as Elizabeth 1 of England experienced dicrimination.And she never brought gender equality to England.

Point still is: These women would hardly be considered "subjugated" now would they? Secondly, women are not the only group who've been "subjugated since the beginning of time", other groups have had just as bad or worse. For example, nobody has suffered a worse holocaust throughout history than Native Americans. Nobody else IMO have suffered longer or more from discrimination, genocide and subjugation than African and Native American people. Still to this day when applying for jobs or loans, etc, who's more likely to be discriminated? Woman or Blacks and Browns?

So please stop playing a "comparisons" game, especially from an inaccurate point of view. Woman are not the only ones and haven't had worse than everyone else.



Peace...

[saracat]

44. Even the Celtic women had slaves of their own gender.

[Popol Vuh]

50. And?

What about the women who were the slave holders? You saying they were "subjugated"? Are you saying that there were no male slaves?

My point still holds true. Woman are only but one in a long list of people who have suffered much discrimination and they can't make the claim that they have had it worse.

[Silver Gaia]

56. Celtic women had more rights than

their Greek and Roman sisters, but they did not hold equal status with males. It was still a patriarchal society, and while their attitude toward their women was far more advanced in some ways (better systems for marriage, divorce, education--and even laws against rape, which the Greeks and Romans did not have), it is wrong to romanticize the Celts as a culture in which men and women held absolutely equal status.

[Popol Vuh]

57. My point was:

It is inaccurate to make the claim "in comparisons" this group or that group has had it worse or have suffered longer. Its just not accurate to say that. Its also too complex a subject to make that claim.

Like for another example: How many examples throughout history can you find where women suffered being conscripted and forced to kill and die in wars? Given this point alone men far exceed unjustly being abused and killed than woman, also, how many men have died because in a deadly situation is was "woman and children first"? But these points are only one facet of what is a complex issue. On that note, still today I don't see woman in this country being forced by law to register for the draft.

With respect to one of my points made - the Celts. I first off made it a point that I am no scholar on that subject, and, made it a point that I was illustrating that there are many examples through history where I would hardly refer to women as being "subjugated". I also would not call my referrence as "romanticizing" either.



Peace...
Popol Vuh

[Silver Gaia]

69. I wasn't accusing you of romanticizing the Celts, but it is true that

this has been done, and that some of the information out there is inaccurate due to this.

The history of the status of women in ancient cultures such as Greece and Rome is well-documented. There is likely much that you are unaware of, if you have not studied it. I stand by my statements that the subjugation of women has a very, very long history.

As for the conscription argument, by the end of the second century BCE, Rome's army was largely volunteer, with conscription only being used if "necessary." It has to be placed in cultural context as well. By and large, being a member of the Roman army was considered a prestigious occupation by most Romans.

The "women and children first" rule you state just points to the biological necessity of women and children to the perpetuation of a given civilization. It also points to the fact of the major role of women in these cultures as that of bearers of children, sometimes at a very young age as well, which was also often quite deadly. It should be noted that female infanticide was quite popular as well in many ancient cultures.

[okasha]

98. Oh, poor oppressed John Jacob Astor.

My heart bleeds. Really.

"How many examples throughout history can you find where women suffered being conscripted and forced to kill and die in wars?"

How many examples throughout history can you find where women were considered able to perform in a military situation?

[saracat]

100. How many examples can you find where men were "forced ' to bear children against their will

and then forced to either dedicate their lives to them or give then away to be "sold" fodder?

[okasha]

105. I think maybe you meant to direct this at PV, Saracat.

I'm in complete agreement with you.

[saracat]

107. whoops I did!

[Donnachaidh]

80. women being arbiters of power and wealth in history?

Exactly WHEN in the last several hundred years?

When you have to go back a millenium to Druidic History to back up a claim? Sometimes people need to carry hipwaders all day in here.

Please provide LINKS to exactly what you are claiming about the arbiters of power and wealth.

[misanthrope]

48. Just 50 years ago in small town Alabama...

...if a black man and white woman are caught flirting, the white woman gets shuffled away while the black man gets lynched.

Emmett Till proved you could get killed just for whistling.

Let's not start this. Throughout history, people of all ethnicities and genders have been mistreated by others of all ethnicities and genders. There are no saints in this.

[saracat]

49. Of course there are not. But neither side deserves to be dismissed. That is the point!

[Popol Vuh]

52. I am glad you see it that way now

because your statement:

but if we are "forced" to make a comparison

is dismissive and is the bases of my arguments.

Sorry saracat for being argumentative with you, I don't mean any insult or anything by it.

[Popol Vuh]

51. Thank you

This notion of being "forced to make a comparison" then it would be this group having had it worse is just simply silly and not accurate.

[bridgit]

53. You've got allot going here so I'll say in passing yeah! Obama is getting a free 'fairy tale ride'..

alright but hey...as was the case with: http://www.basquiat.net">Jean Michel Basquiat, no one cares to be seen or caught on the wrong side of 'white guilt', as black folks already have it figured out and are voting as such. Here's hoping the nation coalesces in earnest.

As for Maher...I little trust a dude that will cozy up to Ann Coulter, while refusing to have Randi Rhodes on because he feels she has "nothing intelligent to say" :thumbsdown:

After his comment on his 'show' to Prof. West & Mos Def regarding black folk gathering round like they did for O.J...

Bill Maher is the neo-poster boy for 'white guilt'

[DemBones DemBones]

54. Sexism is a serious problem that many DUers now

seem willing to ignore in their Obamania. A lot of things are being ignored in this wave of enthusiasm for a freshman senator who doesn't seem to commit to anything but hope. "Yes we can" is catchy, though it is really La Raza's slogan, but will he deliver anything if elected? I'm skeptical about him.

As an older baby boomer, Hillary Clinton has surely encountered sexism. She and I came of age before there was an EEOC to protect women's rights, while black's rights had been given a huge boost in the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts of the mid-Sixties. I think it likely that she has suffered more discrimination due to her sex than a younger baby boomer like Barack Obama could have experienced due to being biracial, especially since he lived as a child in multiracial Hawaii and Indonesia. But if we're going to base this election on who's suffered most, McCain will be a shoo-in for the five or six years he was a POW being tortured by the Viet Cong.

As much as I hate to admit it, since I have long resisted supporting Hillary Clinton, I think that in comparison to Obama and McCain, she would be the best president, and is the most progressive of the three options we have left. I truly fear that if Obama is our nominee, McCain will be our next president. I remember how enthusiastic we all were about George McGovern in 1972 and the only stae he carried was Massachusetts. Caveat emptor.

[cgrindley]

67. Sexism's high water point receded long ago

seriously, the issue of women's rights in the United States is no longer a particularly pressing issue. Nowadays, we see that young women are better educated than young men, they live in better health and they live longer. They are locked up less. They are murdered less often. They are assaulted less often. Divorce and child custody practices favor them greatly and so on. Choice, regardless of what people like to say, is safeguarded by the courts.

The lack of equitable participation rates in elected offices is slowly being addressed, as is the disparity between wages (never a cut and dried issue but influenced by 1. an education disparity that has now been reversed and 2. a few key differences in the types of unskilled labor that uneducated men and women choose to pursue) will soon vanish entirely.

By the time that the generation of young women 25-29 are in their 50s, I expect that the income difference will be in the other direction. The matter of political office is more complex to address. Quite possibly, not as many young women *want* to become politicians as young men. There are some differences between the genders. Perhaps desire for political office is one.

[Donnachaidh]

84. That glass ceiling doesn't effect you, does it?

"the issue of women's rights in the United States is no longer a particularly pressing issue"

:eyes:

[Silver Gaia]

58. Good post, saracat.

I was also enraged by Bill Maher's remark. I jumped up and yelled at the TV (ask my husband)! You are correct that he is a misogynist, and has proved this on many occasions. I wanted the woman in green to blast him for that, but she evidently didn't get a chance.

I didn't see the threads and posts you are referring to, but will take your word for it, and am glad, in a way, that I didn't see them. Disgusting.

In response to some of the posts here, it is correct that women, on the whole, have been discriminated against far longer than any other group. We are going into the BCE period of history when talking about the subjugation of women, and it isn't just Western culture. Asian and African cultures have just as long a history of this as European culture, and subsequent American culture. Race was a concept invented--and I mean that exactly the way I said it--in relatively modern times, whereas the idea of women as something "less" has been with us for a very, very long time. Not ALL cultures throughout time and space have treated their women as inferior, but the vast majority have. And most worldwide still do.

I completely agree with saracat's statements: "Throughout history women were the most commonly subjugated minority. They were not the ONLY minority subjugated. However women were always part of any subjugated minority." ~I don't see how anyone could realistically deny this.~ And: "But neither side deserves to be dismissed. That is the point!" ~Absolutely.~

I am not happy that we are being put in this position where race and gender are being USED to fuel such divisiveness within the Democratic Party. It is counter-productive, and I can see nothing good coming of it.

[Popol Vuh]

60. RE:

In response to some of the posts here, it is correct that women, on the whole, have been discriminated against far longer than any other group.

Examples of woman being conscripted and forced to kill and die in wars? I don't recall any.

On that note: Isn't it time that woman join men in being forced to register for the draft?


I do however agree with you that I am not happy that people are pulling out the race or gender card too. But, I will respond to what I see as inaccurate posts pertaining to race or gender.

[Silver Gaia]

62. If there IS a draft again in the U.S., I feel that it WILL be that way.

And IF that is what is to be, it is only fair, although I do not wish to see a draft. However, this is just one issue you bring up in a whole huge pot of inequities spanning thousands of years. It's late. I'm not much into arguing, since, as I said, it's counter-productive. I stand by my post as accurate, however.

[Popol Vuh]

64. It is counter-productive

But nevertheless I did notice you felt the need to throw in a parting shot about woman again that is being hypocritical against so many other examples through history with respect to other groups who have equally or more so been mistreated.

That is why I am sure you elected to only select my point about being forced to register for the draft, but, conspicuously chose to ignore the point I made about the history of men vs woman being conscripted and force to kill and die in wars.

But nevertheless have a good night...


Peace..
Popol Vuh

[Silver Gaia]

70. I addressed your conscription point above.

Sorry it took me so long to finish that post. My dog is ill tonight and I am having to take time out to care for him.

It was wrong of Bill Maher to put this in such "either/or" terms. It is wrong for those of us whose ancestry or gender puts us at any point on this spectrum to claim that our particular part of the spectrum somehow deserves more recognition. ALL I was trying to point out is that the subjugation of women has a very long history. That does not imply anything else.

I am not saying that any one group is somehow "better" than another for having been mistreated. All I am saying is that the history of mistreatment of women has a far longer history, and that in any other group of people who have been mistreated, women were ALSO a part of that group. This really can't be questioned.

Does that make women somehow "more deserving" of being treated fairly than anyone else? No. At this point, we are all in this together. One person being mistreated demeans every one of us. The sooner we--all of us here on this planet--realize that, the better.

May you have a god night as well, Popol Vuh, and peace be between us. I do believe we are, ultimately, on the same "side."

[saracat]

101. I have no problem with women registering for the draft. I do have a problem

with gender inequality not being addressed. Some do not even acknowledge the centureis that woman have been "forced". to bear unwanted children, as though this is dimissable. it is not dismissable to me and ranks as bad as "conscription".

[cali]

59. what a load of crap. not surprisingly.

blaming DU and Obama supporters for what some TV personality says. Like most Obama supporters here, I heartily condemned what Shuster said. And I don't support Obama because of his race.


Revolting post.

[jonnyblitz]

63. most obama supporters are condemning what Shuster said?

all I see is "it's generic slang like "pimp my ride" on MTV, get over it." of course everybody knows Shuster was referring to fixing up a car when he commented on Chelsea. Hillary and her supporters are just playing the victim card. :sarcasm:

[cooolandrew]

61. We broke a ceiling with Nancy and she din't clean the mes..

...time to break a new one.

[robbedvoter]

72. Sooo - it's back to the kitchen with us? Not the first time you post this crap!

[cgrindley]

65. That's misinformed

so what percentage of white women are currently incarcerated?
what percentage of white women are currently felons and unable to vote for the rest of their lives?
how many white women have a college degree compared to black men?
so what's the homicide rate of what women compared to black men?
what about the median income of white women compared to black men?

in the United States, discrimination against black men is far worse than discrimination against white women (or against black women for that matter). in the United States, the life of a black man is far worse than the life of a white woman.



Did you know that 33% of women of all races aged 25-29 had college degrees in 2007, compared to 26% of men. The tables have turned. Sure women still only make on average 77 cents to the dollar of men, but that will change as more and more college educated women move out of pointless and low paying jobs and into higher paying jobs and it will change as more and more unskilled and traditionally dominated jobs get off-shored.

[boricua79]

68. not to seem insensitive

but americans DO owe blacks more than they do women. Even at the height of disenfranchisement for women, they were still WHITE women, able to enjoy the benefits of life with white men. Black women and poor white women had to endure essentially the same poverty-stricken conditions as their mates, so their suffering wasn't based on being a woman, it was based on being part of a poor class.

No woman (except black women) had to work for free for hundreds of years. No woman (except for black women) had to endure being hung, screamed at, shot at with water cannons, had dogs sent on them, etc.

I, quite frankly, do not see a big difference in electing a propertied, rich white female to the White House. She's a child of that privileged class, will have the same characteristics of that same class, and will outdo herself to prove that she can fulfill the "stereotypes" of being a man (being tough). I don't want Golda Meir. I don't want Margaret Thatcher. In fact, I don't want any candidate that's out to prove themselves and "find their voice". I want a candidate who knows what he wants to do and inspires me in the act. Kucinich and Edwards were my first choices, but I didn't dislike Obama. now I'm supporting Obama.

[RestoreGore]

79. So you are only supporting Obama because you think he is "owed" it just for being black?

I then don't personally see a big difference in electing a propertied, rich black man either. Is that what you're saying? Is that really a reason to vote for anyone anyway when so much in this country is at stake? BTW, isn't his mother a white woman? Are you then admitting by your own logic that his mother didn't struggle because she was white? And for your information, women of all races fighting for the right to vote were imprisoned, beaten, tortured, shot with water cannons, and have had to endure being the sex subjected to substandard conditions in every facet of society regardless of their marital status for far longer than any other group. That doesn't diminish the injustices suffered by others, it simply places into perspective what you misrepresented.

[boricua79]

117. you put words in my mouth

I'm supporting Obama because, between him and Hillary, he's the more convincingly "for the people". hillary is a DLC-elitist of the power-rich class. i don't want to vote for her. Being black really has nothing to do with it. I was remarking on the discussion of what group is "owed" more, and I side on the side of the black people.

All of what you say about women is correct, but I don't think that women in this country had it worse than black people in this country. IN THIS COUNTRY...read that clearly.

[NOLALady]

87. Kucinich and Edwards were also my first choices.

In fact, I voted for Edwards yesterday. The only thing that I have in common with Edwards is we're both Southerners.

I do resent it when people assume that I'm supporting Obama simply because he has African ancestors. By that reasoning, I should also vote for HRC because of her French-Canadian ancestors. I also resent it when people insist that I support HRC because she is a female.



The isms? Racism has hurt me more than sexism. I deal with racism everyday. Most of my experience with sexism was in the workplace. Every single day I fear for my son as he could commit the serious crime of DWB. The fear of racism will always affect me.


Still, What's so hard about voting on issues?

I cannot/will not let isms enter the voting booth. I fought too hard for the right to vote to reduce my choices to isms.

[saracat]

94. Wow. I guess you didn't know that women were property in this country

and owned by their husband's? They couldn't own property and many were beaten , raped and forced to work under unconscionable conditions? Even today, spousal rape is legal in many states. And yes women of "ALL colors were hung, screamed at , shot at with water cannon and had dogs set on them". It was part of the culture and ALL women lived with it. Black woman experienecd more but that fact does not diminish the the slavery and indentured servitude that was shared by ALL women.

I can empathize with some of your reasons for not caring for Clinton, she was NOT my first choice but she wasn't really a "child of the privileged class". She had to struggle to go to school and had a father who did not believe in education for women. She educated herself despite him.

I find it a very odd statement that you have no objection to electing a "rich , propertied black man" to the WH and have no problem with him coming out of the "privileged class' in that he was the product of an elite high school and college education.

You also seem to feel he, unlike a women, will not have to compenstate for anything or be compelled to "prove" himself to anyone. Hillary Clinton was not my first choice but the reasons you cite for supporting Obama, which seem to be more reasons NOT to vote for her are questionable. I really doubt you would have trouble supporting a "male " who said he had found his "voice" in the civil rights movement, or found his "voice in the issue of poverty but clearly, for some, a "woman is different."

[NorthernSpy]

102. no, white women were never chattel in the sense that slaves were...

The closest some of them ever got to that status was early in colonialism when indentured servitude was still common. But of course, most indentured servants were men.

Yes, white women WERE able to own property and run businesses. The only exception to that was that SOME states did not allow MARRIED women to own property separately from their husbands. That was the property issue that needed reform.

In fact, in colonial New Jersey, unmarried women who owned enough property could vote. (Men of all colors have been disenfranchised for poverty for about as long as women have been for their sex.)

[saracat]

104. That is only partially correct. Women could be "beaten at will and condemned to insane asylums at

the will of their husbands.They could be stripped of everything at his word. Most single women could "own" nothing.The word of their "father" or nearest male relative counted for everything. Many early suffragettes found out just how enslaved they really were. Forced feeding and commitment were common occurrences. Women were defacto "enslaved.". Even today many states have no spousal rape laws ans they indicate such a thing is not possible, and many women of all colors are beaten with impunity by men as violence against women is considered a "given" and not preventable in many areas of our society.

[boricua79]

118. I have objections to electing a DLC- Ielitist like Clinton

as for Obama...look...we'll never have a poor man ever get close to being our President...not as long as our campaigns are run the way they are. So, given the context, I'd rather him, a person who was not always rich, who seems, by his actions and words, to be more world-traveled, and who frankly inspires me more than Clinton. I never said I'd be "down" with a rich-propertied black man. I'm sure Obama is rich...but, his actions and way of acting is not "rich". That's what is important to me.

As for the "voice" issue, frankly, I thought that was opportunistic political posturing. She "found" her voice when she "FOUND" out that people liked her being honest and forthright, rather than "poll-driven". She "FOUND" out that crying made her look more "of the people", rather than the DLC-elitist that she is. So, that's why I have problems with Clinton's "I found my voice" comments. They're not sincere at all.

[robbedvoter]

71. Bill Maher never thought he owed women anything - except some bills on the

night table
It's one reason I don't watch - even when he is not scabbing the writers strike.

[suston96]

76. Bill Maher was a history major.

He doesn't know what came first: the Fifteenth or the Nineteenth Amendments

American women waited much longer to exercise their voting rights than blacks.

And in Friday's show, Bill Maher came out with this gem: Who woulda thought: an African American and a Vagina American running for President.....

[NOLALady]

77. I heard that and I was totally disgusted.

I stopped watching him some time ago after a misogynist rant. Hubby was watching when I heard that little gem come from his filthy mouth.

[Seabiscuit]

113. For all his comedic abilities, Maher IS a misogynist.

Almost as bad, he hangs out with "Mann" Coulter.

[Cameron27]

92. Bill Maher has his good points,

but he's a Hugh Hefner wannabe when it comes to women. "Vagina American" ??? Why not the African American Penis candidate.

[NorthernSpy]

103. white women were never massacred for showing up to vote...

Blacks were.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colfax_Massacre


Blacks waited until the 1960s to be able to vote safely. White women were able to exercise their rights as soon as they got the franchise.

[RestoreGore]

78. Bill Maher is a msyogynist ass

Which is why I don't watch his BS show. And I agree with you about the sexism. It is subtle but it is there. I don't really support Hillary Clinton, but I will say that at this point I would feel a hell of a lot more secure with her as president than Obama. And that isn't because she is a woman, it is because she simply exudes a sense of competence and the ability to lead whereas Obama seems to be counting on his rockstar status to sustain him. I don't want a rock star, I want a competent leader. And at this point, that leader being a woman would be a plus.

[asdjrocky]

83. I'm with ya Sara, I can't even read GDP anymore.

It seems we're always in one silly fight or another over here. It's like listening to kids fight. A bit K&R. (And screw everyone else.)

[ShortnFiery]

85. It's a sad day when someone here posts an opinion of Bill Maher's as "The Voice of Reason."

:crazy:

The man has SO MANY conflicting "value sets" and not so covert prejudices that a psychologist could enjoy a career using BILL MAHER as an stellar example of an abnormal psychological *case study.* :shrug:

[Bluerthanblue]

89. beware of the feelings that DU gives you SaraCat- I understand

what you are saying, and it's difficult not to see the world through the DU lens, but this place isn't a very balanced source- we come here by choice, but this is only a small fragment of what makes up "the real world".

If Bill Maher is voting for Obama because of his race, that is pretty sad- I feel the same way about those who claim to be voting for Hillary because she is a woman and "it is time for a woman", rather than because either one of them is the BEST candidate for the job.

I also am really troubled by the way we are being encouraged to pit Hillary and Obama against each other, and assume,- assert, that choosing one- Say Hillary, then you are a defacto racist- or Obama, then a defacto sexist. This either/or all or nothing thinking is nothing more than bigotry itself.

I am neither racist, nor sexist, I have been accused of being both here at DU. We treat each other as if anyone who doesn't fall into our perception of "good Democrat" they must be "with the 'terraists/enemy/repukes' and should be destroyed by any means necessary.

Have we been staring into the Abyss too long? Can we find our way back together? Can we stop building walls to divide us, and work together for something that is more than any one of us, alone, but something that can help us ALL as individuals who agree to work together for everyone?

We are in the process of choosing a candidate to replace George Bush- to lead this country's recovery from the last 8+ yrs of republican chaos- We need to keep our focus on the candidate as a complete person- not, "the Woman" or "the African American" - not as "Bill's wife" or "Michelle's husband"- But as two unique individuals with different strengths and weaknesses, similar platforms, but different priorities.

When we USE either Obama's race, or Hillary's sex as a tool to berate those who choose differently than we have, what does that really say about US??

We can't ignore that Obama is a Black man or that Hillary is a white woman- but if we focus on this, to the exclusion of everything else, we are failing ourselves-

peace~

[Mr.Fitzgibbons]

95. Look, Bill Maher is virulently anti-feminist in the sense that he prefers silicon to the real thing

and hangs out with saggy old Hef and the young women that cling to Hef for financial and (sadly) emotional support. It is so incredibly sad that it is very hard for me to take anything he says seriously.

[saracat]

96. It isn't what Maher says it is the fact that so many on DU defend what he has said in this instance.

Right in this thread are some who justify and support the view that sexism is not a valid issue.Some even deny it has ever existed. For a liberal Democratic Board, this is disgusting.

[Seabiscuit]

114. He probably also prefers Playboy magazine to the real thing as well.

He's a juvenile misogynist.

[PurityOfEssence]

99. REAL pluralists focus on whose policies benefit the most, not whose "turn" it is

The partisan selfishness is understandable and human, and it must be a heady time for those aching for someone of a downtrodden group with whom they identify to finally have a real chance at the presidency, but upon simple analysis, this is an act of selfishness if that is the determinant instead of who would benefit the most. Slamming the door on John Edwards is a "fuck you" to the poor, a hit against environmentalists, a backhanded dismissal of healthcare rights, a kick in the stomach against organized labor and veritable pissing on the concept of keeping religion out of government.

Democrats are supposed to be focused on others, not themselves; that's the focus of conservatives.

We're long overdue for a non-white or a non-male president, but redress for those groups shouldn't trump the needs and desires of EVERYONE.

The board is rather boring these days, and that's because many of the more interesting posters have fallen silent for the moment. I guess they're just letting nature take its course as it will from time to time, and watching when they haven't anything constructive to offer.

[BlackVelvet04]

106. Maher is the epitome of a

male chauvinist pig.

Yeah, women have had it so easy. After slaves were freed women were still the property of their husbands. Women couldn't own property. A man could beat his wife because it was his right. Women died from having children year after year after year because sex was the right of the husband, even if it killed the woman. I could go on but you get the picture.

Fuck Maher.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

108. My God Does He Say Some Really Stupid Things.

[spooky3]

110. yeah, I like a lot of his work, but he has a blind spot regarding women.

Hope you're doing a little better, Operationmindcrime.

[waiting for hope]

111. I hear you Sara -

The whole Shuster incident was beyond the pale. After all the nasty things said about her by McCain, you would think this entire board would have been behind Senator Clinton in defending her daughter - but, they have gotten into their heads that by attacking and going negative is the way they think they'll win. I am totally turned off on Obama's message - and not by his supporters, but the very fact that his supporters are not properly defending the message, I don not see the connection between the man and the masses and that's problematic.

[Seabiscuit]

115. saracat is absolutely right about this.

Sadly, there are a lot of self-righteous assholes with a sense of values that is walking backwards on DU these days.

[Egalia]

112. There is no Democratic Party

without women. We are, um, the majority of the population.