Obama has my vote if he wants it. There's just one condition

[Ediacara]

He must reject hate and the agents of hate. Unconditionally.

He must do more than reject Donnie McClurkin's message, he must reject Donnie McClurkin.

He must do more than reject Kirbyjon Caldwell's message, he must reject Kirbyjon Caldwell.

When he sincerely apologizes for pandering to bigots and unambiguously rejects their contributions to his campaign, I will, without hesitation, jump on the Obama bandwagon.

But if he continues on the tack he's been taking; if he continues to reject hate, but embrace the agents of hate, I can't vote for him.

If he continues to have genuinely insightful commentary about homophobia in the African American community, but in the same breath snarks about how he didn't get an HIV test with Senator Biden, I can't vote for him. I won't vote for him. Not in the primary. Not in the general. Not ever.

Please Obama supports, please do everything you can to get your candidate to reject the agents of hate. There's a lot to like in your candidate, and I don't believe that he, personally, is a homophobe. It's just his campaign. His campaign decries hate, while embracing haters, and I can't support that.

[MNDemNY]

1. So, who will you be voting for?

[Ediacara]

4. I don't know

I was hoping that one of the three actually experienced candidates had caught fire (that is, Richardson, Biden, and Dodd), but seeing as they have a complete lack of charisma and first-osity, that hope was over before it started.

And I know that Hillary is no champion of gay rights, not by a long shot. But the issue I think is more that Obama seems to wear his homophobic supporters like a badge of honor in a bizarre pandering calculus (a calculus in which his math is wrong). But when it comes caucus time, I think I will probably end up voting for her, or possibly Edwards (if he's still on 12 Feb).

In the general, if Obama is the nominee, I will probably not vote for President. I certainly won't vote Republican, nor Green, nor some other third party, but this issue really matters, and quite frankly, I'm sick of this party compromising on it.

[MNDemNY]

6. Hope for a deadlocked convention.

Re-Elect Al Gore!!!!!

[dbackjon]

2. Bravo! I feel similarly

[swoop]

3. Have Hillary or Edwards rejected that message also?

[Ediacara]

7. I don't know

What I do know however is that Hillary and Edwards, while I am sure they have their fair share of homophobic supporters, have not to my knowledge, so publicly embraced agents of hate in the same way that Obama has.

Let me make it clear again: I don't think that Obama is a homophobe, nor do I think Hillary is a homophobe, and while Edwards may have had some issues in the past, I think he's making a sincere effort to move past it.

[NYCGirl]

5. On the Biden thing, you are aware that straight people can get HIV, too.

And he didn't want anyone to think he was messing around on Michelle.

He was actually tested THREE TIMES to set an example for AIDS awareness.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2006/11/sweet_column_obama_the_serial.html

Another test for 2008?
Obama again publicizing HIV screening -- and he's got a big speech on Iraq today

For the second time in 97 days, Sen. Barack Obama -- who is mulling a 2008 presidential run and giving a big speech on Iraq today -- will take another public HIV/AIDS test.

Given his marriage to his wife, Michelle, and the certainty he is not shooting up anything, Obama's test results will again be negative.

As an HIV/AIDS awareness publicity stunt, public testing is a tool to help fight the disease. I'm not naive; I understand that Obama taking an HIV/AIDS test in his father's Kenyan province in August was a highly symbolic but potentially educational, motivational and life-saving gesture in a country where men resist testing. But after Obama takes another public HIV/AIDS test Dec. 1 -- for this audacious senator, maybe enough is enough.

Obama's previous HIV/AIDS test was Aug. 26 in Kisumu, a city in western Kenya about an hour away from his father's homestead. He was joined by Michelle.

[Ediacara]

10. Did you catch the debate that Tavis Smiley moderated?

Biden had mentioned that a good way to encourage HIV testing in inner city youth was to lead by example and get tested yourself. He said something like, "I've been tested and I know Barack has been tested..."

A few minutes later, Obama loudly snarked, "Just to make it clear, I got tested for HIV with Michelle..."

Which.... I think it was pretty clear from Biden's statement that he and Obama didn't get tested together. I actually think it's absurd that Obama would think that anyone would assume that they were tested together.

Was Obama that worried people would think he and Joe Biden were boyfriends?

[NYCGirl]

15. Yes, I did see it. And I laughed, because he was pointing out that he was faithful

to Michelle. I didn't even give the "boyfriend" thing ONE THOUGHT.

[Ediacara]

16. Uh.... the implication that I got (and everyone else I've talked to who saw the debate)

was that he was making sure people knew that he and Biden didn't get tested for HIV together.

ON EDIT: it wasn't even during a regular question, Obama interjected this at the end of Biden's time

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/special/forums/transcript.html

Michel Martin: Thank you, Tavis. Good evening, Governor. Good evening, candidates. I'm sure you'll agree there are a lot of beautiful young people out here in the audience today and are very pleased to be here and conversing, so you can imagine how disturbed we were to find out from the Centers for Disease Control that African Americans are seventeen percent of all American teenagers, they are sixty-nine percent of the population of teenagers diagnosed most with HIV-AIDS. Governor and candidates, what is the plan to stop and to protect these young people from this scourge?

....

Joe Biden: I will try to answer your question directly. You said how do we prevent the seventeen-year-olds from getting HIV-AIDS? How do you prevent that? All the things that were said here are good ideas. They don't prevent that. What's happened is there's a policy of neglect, denial and lack of honesty out there.

The fact of the matter is, as Hillary points out, there's neglect on the part of the medical and the white community focusing on educating the minority community out there. I spent last summer going through the Black sections of my town holding rallies in parks, trying to get Black men to understand that it's not unmanly to wear a condom, getting women to understand they can say no, getting people in the position where testing matters.

I got tested for AIDS. I know Barack got tested for AIDS. There's no shame in being tested for AIDS. It's an important thing because the fact of the matter is, in the communities engaged in denial, no one wants to talk about it in the community and we do not have enough leaders in the community and outside the community demanding we face the reality, confront the men in the community as well as the women, letting them know there are alternatives.

Tavis Smiley: Thank you.

Barack Obama: Tavis, I just got to make clear that I got tested with Michelle when we were in Kenya in Africa, so I don't want any confusion here about what's going on.

Joe Biden: Well, I got tested to save my life because I had a blood transfusion.

Barack Obama: I was tested with my wife.

Tavis Smiley: And I'm sure Michelle appreciates you clarifying that.

Barack Obama: In public.

[NYCGirl]

18. I stand by what I said. And here on DU, there were lots of people who thought

the same way.

[Ediacara]

21. If you say so

:eyes:

In any case, what are your thoughts on the main thesis of this thread?

[NMMNG]

8. Good luck on that

He has stated unequivocally that he will not tolerate racism on his staff, and has publicly called for the firing of well-known people who made racist remarks (Don Imus, John Tanner). Yet despite lip-service to "equality" he continues to not only give homophobia in the form of "Ex-Gay" activists a pass, but a home in his campaign. It's frustrating and disheartening.

[Ediacara]

11. You're right, it is disheartening

Obama is someone I want to like, but the lip service concerning equality has to stop.

[NMMNG]

14. When he became a candidate I had hope for him

I anticipated that because he was black he'd be more likely to renounce bigotry against anybody, and therefore be a better champion for LGBT rights than the others. Sadly that isn't the case. :-(

[Ediacara]

17. He's had some moments where it sounds like he really understands the issue

But those moments are few and far between unfortunately...

[Yanez Houston Jordan]

9. I could also be won over with a full apology for McClurkin and a better health care plan.

[butterfly77]

12. Add ed shultz to that list..

[butterfly77]

13. No one...

[DiamondJay]

19. Fahrakkan too

[Bluebear]

20. I agree, but most of his supporters here told me to "get over it", so don't hold your breath.

[ErnestoG]

22. The fact that you recognize he is no homophobe should tell you all you need to know

All else is feel good nonsense.

[Ediacara]

24. What?

[NMMNG]

27. You know,

The fact that John Doe isn't a racist himself should tell you that his continued cozying-up to racists is just a bunch of "feel-good nonsense". :sarcasm:


In other words, get over it. :eyes:

[ErnestoG]

47. Did I stutter?

[LittleClarkie]

67. This is not the Breakfast Club

Could you elaborate?

[Ediacara]

72. Uh... I can't read your mind

[sandnsea]

23. He does not reject people, that's the point of his campaign

He believes the way to change people's minds is through communication.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/alexokrent/C5zH

[Ediacara]

25. We all know that's not true

He does reject racists, quite vociferously. So the contention that he "doesn't reject people" is baloney.

Additionally, there are some ideas that are quite simply wrong, hate being one of them. If he can reject racists, he can certainly reject homophobes because their central thesis is the same flawed idea that hate has a place in the United States of the 21st century.

[sandnsea]

26. He admonishes haters of all sorts

Including haters of homosexuals. I am gathering you are referring to the fact that he wouldn't get on stage with the KKK, I agree he probably wouldn't. At the same time, I don't think he'd get on stage with Fred Phelps either.

I respect and accept your view of the dangers of the ex-gay doctrine. I think Obama's position is that that view is wrong, but that since it is not accompanied with out and out hatred of gays, there is room for further communication.

I would also note that the campaign has not included any of these ex-gay individuals since the McClurkin incident.

It is much like Democrats accepting support of Catholics who also think gays are sinners. I don't think it's fair to reject Obama based on these two particular individuals, when Obama's ultimate goal is to move the black church away from the homophobia. Which Catholic politicians are going into parishes and challenging their bigotry?

[Ediacara]

28. He's accepted the endorsement of Caldwell, a minister that actually runs an ex-gay program

just last week (or maybe two weeks ago). He's even indicated that he may go down to Caldwell's church. Obama's campaign seems to be continuing to use them.

Additionally, I strongly disagree that there's any wiggle room concerning the ex-gay doctrine. The notion that an inborn, unchangeable, probably genetic factor of any human being is sinful and changeable is a hateful notion. If I were a Mormon preacher and I were to tell a black man that I hate the sin of being black, but love the sinner, you'd see right through me. If I were to claim I could pray the black right out of his skin, you'd see that I was motived by nothing more than hate. Why is it so hard for some to understand it's the same way with ex-gay programs?

Again, some ideas and ideologies are wrong. If he wants my vote he needs to not only reject hate, but those that promulgate it on his behalf.

ON EDIT: And I bring up Mormons solely because of their apparently now discarded doctrine that dark skinned races got dark skin as punishment for sinfulness.

[sandnsea]

29. Last post

Because I don't think you're really interested in anything except pot stirring.

Nobody said there was any wiggle room concerning the ex-gay doctrine.

There is a difference between someone who out and out hates gays, and someone who is misinformed. That's the point. The only way to get some of these misguided individuals to change their mind is to talk to them. If you reject communication, that's your choice. But if nobody is talking to misguided individuals, don't expect to ever get equal rights.

[Ediacara]

30. Well I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was dealing with a mind-reader here

I'm just stirring a pot :eyes:

Homophobes are just misinformed :eyes:

Obama's really communicating to homophobes that the message of homophobia is bad by embracing them :eyes:

[sandnsea]

31. Wow. How do you think change has happened so far??

Tell me. How do you explain the movement from closet to the altar in the last 20 years.

[Ediacara]

32. By confronting haters and convincing those without hate why hate cannot be tolerated

Did the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s embrace racists? Or did it confront them?

The answer is so clear and so clearly contrary to the point you're making I don't even know why you asked.

I mean seriously....

[sandnsea]

34. Ooooh, communication, I see

Exactly what Obama is trying to do now.

[Ediacara]

36. How? How is Obama communicating to homophobes that homophobia is wrong?

He pays lip service to the subject but he doesn't work to solve the problem.

[sandnsea]

39. By SAYING IT

I don't know, what the hell do you want. He goes straight at the religious communities and tells them they're wrong.

He consistently supported and sponsored gay rights legislation in Illinois.

Barack Obama co-sponsored legislation to expand federal hate crimes laws to include crimes perpetrated because of sexual orientation and gender identity.
Supports the Employment Non-Discrimination Act and believes it should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity.
Repeal the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy and allow gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military.
Believes gays and lesbians should have the same rights to adopt children as heterosexuals.
Supports equal rights through either gay marriage or civil unions.

John Kennedy was not a perfect supporter of racial equality by a long shot, but you didn't see Martin Luther King spitting in his face. Communication moves people. That's what Obama does.

[Ediacara]

41. I want him to tell Caldwell to fuck off. I want him to admit he made a mistake with McClurkin

I want him to give back all the money he made with the McClurkin fundraiser. I want him to say that there is absolutely zero chance that he'll visit Caldwell's church. I want him to unambiguously reject their help.

Going to their churches and saying, "You do bad things, but I'll gladly give you a stage to further my own political goals," isn't good enough. I want him to walk the walk.

[sandnsea]

42. Is that what MLK should have done?

Told JFK if he didn't spout the exact right words that he could just fuck off and go back to DC and the black folks would fend for themselves??

Do you not think it would be so much more useful for Obama to visit Caldwell's church and confront homophobia??

[Ediacara]

43. That's not an appropriate analogy and you know it

Was JFK an agent of hate in the sense that McClurkin and Caldwell are?

[sandnsea]

44. He spoke to agents of hate

Listen to it yourself. Not the most enlightened conversation. But he was trying to move the people to do SOMETHING, take some step forward. You have to talk to haters to get them to change.

http://tapes.millercenter.virginia.edu/clips/jfk_birmingham_19630923.html

I don't know what good a 50 state strategy is if nobody is going to talk to the people who think differently than the rest of the country.

[Ediacara]

45. So should I give him a pass for having agents of hate campaign on his behalf?

Perhaps you're right, perhaps telling them to fuck off is the wrong idea (I think it would actually be quite effective), but embracing them while offering very limited very weak criticism is absolutely the wrong idea.

[sandnsea]

46. He offered very clear criticism

and he is not having them campaign on his behalf either. One of the first things I appreciated about Obama was his willingness to go to the church community and tell them directly that women had the right to make up their own mind on abortion. No safe, legal and rare stuff. Point blank, support for women to choose abortion. And yet, even that, has been twisted by the Obama haters. I don't understand why 5-10% of the population think they're going to force the other 90% to behave in a certain manner. You have to talk to people in language they understand. That's all he's trying to do.

[Ediacara]

48. What did McClurkin do if it wasn't campaigning on his behalf?

Caldwell said that he would be campaigning on Obama's behalf.

The very least Obama can do to make me believe him is say, "No, I will not have agents of hate campaign for me."

That's been my whole point.

ON EDIT: I'm going to get some dinner.

[sandnsea]

52. My god, the campaign did say that

They will not have Caldwell campaigning for them. McClurkin clearly hasn't since then. I posted the statement above, one that has never been posted at DU that I ever saw.

And Caldwell has since rejected all this ex-gay stuff and has even made a comment that would indicate he might consider gay marriage. Now, you can dismiss this all as politicking and I wouldn't completely disagree with you. Still, it makes the point that conversation is where it starts. If somebody is willing to publicly consider a change the idea of a change today, it's a big step closer to the actual change down the road.

“I got to tell you, this is going to sound real stupid, but I didn’t know it was on our website,” Caldwell said. “I was surprised and embarrassed by it. I’m embarrassed from the standpoint that I should have known. We have 120 ministries at the church. You can’t be on top of everything.”

When asked if he opposed such programs, Caldwell said: “It’s not a ministry of the church. It is not supported financially by the church. It is not located at the church. That is pretty much where I am with it.”

For his part, Caldwell said he is a “believer in everybody having access to all rights and privileges.”

When asked if that meant he supported civil unions and gay marriage, Caldwell said: “I would need to check with the church.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/23/politics/politico/main3743835.shtml

[Ediacara]

58. That's one step in the right direction, but Obama needs to take several more

1) I don't believe Caldwell for one minute when he says he has no idea what was on his website. Additionally, the fact that the woman supposedly running the show uses a phone number and email address from his church tells me that at the very least he condoned what was going on. Either that or he has the worst run organization in the history of organizations.

2) He also knows exactly what he thinks about gays. “I would need to check with the church,” is a total cop-out answer. He was asked if he supported civil unions, not the church. That answer tells me he doesn't support gays (hey if you can be a mind reader, so can I).

3) When Caldwell announced his support of Obama, he made it quite clear that he had contacted the Obama campaign ahead of time and they were quite excited about getting him on board, and were very amenable to getting the Senator to speak at his church. Only after the revelations about Metanoa, did the Obama campaign finally do the right thing and reject his help.

4) Obama knew that McClurkin was a bigot and would create a problem at least a week ahead of his appearance where he, without hindrance and under Obama's banner emceed an event that consisted of defamatory speech against homosexuals and homosexuality. Obama knew this would happen well in advance, yet did nothing to reject this agent of hate. Good for him for not having him campaign again, but that hardly makes up for the fact that he allowed it to happen in the first place, and has yet to admit he made a terrible mistake.

[sandnsea]

61. So you would have spit in JFK's face

Got it. I won't forget.

[Ediacara]

64. Back to that hilariously bad analogy again?

Got it. I won't forget.

[okasha]

63. It started when the Stonewall queens fought back

during a police raid on a gay bar. They confronted the oppressor directly and refused to back down, putting their own safety, not to mention their lives, on the line to do it. They refused to be victims.

The first step is direct action. And more direct action after that. Minds change in response to resistance. That's how Martin Luther King did it; it's how the Vietnam war protesters did it. That's what works.

[sandnsea]

65. With baseball bats or words??

Communication makes the changes. Please read post re: JFK & MLK above.

[Ediacara]

73. The post where you equated JFK to McClurkin?

What exactly was the analogy you were going for?

[sandnsea]

77. Yeah, JFK said some stupid stuff about racism

Did you think I'd try to deny what I said? Truth is truth.

[Bluenorthwest]

54. Talking to them is not what Obama did

He allowed McClurkin to do the talking. All of the talking. There was no dialouge there was a use of pandering to gain votes, plain and simple. Giving someone an uncontested platform to spread their message is not 'talking to the misguided' it is empowering the misguided to misguide others. Under an Obama banner.
And this splitting hairs over the prejudice being hate or misinformation, that could be applied to all bigots. Most racists don't out and out hate other races, they see them as lesser people than themselves. They see them as needing to be saved from themselves, delivered, all of that stuff. They just don't see them as equal. Hate is not needed to live a life of bigotry and intolerance. Indifference, praternalization, pity, all of these things can do just fine. Such people often will lecture others on the worth of their postions as if they were not sincere, but children who need to be told 'how to get equal rights' by a person who is not 'like them'.

And let me add while we are at it, that I have actually been talking to those people, for decades, and the strides have been huge. The homophobia in the black community hurts black gay people first and foremost. Obviously. So as one who knows the difference, let me tell you clearly that what Obama did was not 'communicating' with the ex-gay people, he was using them to attract voters. He did so with intention.
Every single thing the original post said goes for me as well.

[terrya]

37. I have nothing to say to the "ex-gay" people.

Until the GLBT community receives an apology from them.

So, I guess Senator Obama has a bit of a problem with that.

[mondo joe]

49. And yet he said he would not appear on Don Imus's show and called for his firing.

Looks like he's okay with excluding some people.

[sandnsea]

53. Yeah, Don Imus is a flat out bigoted asshole

Who spews bigoted horseshit every single day. Big difference between that and someone who preaches love, but is misguided in some aspects of what they're preaching.

[Bluenorthwest]

55. You are defending McClurkin.

Just because he says he preaches love, don't make it love. He's not misguided, he is a person who has declared war on the gay community, in those words on the 700 Club. Says gays are trying to kill children. You call that love? I call that hate speech for a buck. The cross does not mitigate the prejudice.
There is no difference at all between Imus and McClurkin. None. It is the same game. Except you know, McClurkin says he's speaking for God, Imus says he's making a joke.
McClurkin sang for GW Bush at the Republican Convention in 2004, three years later he's invited to bash my family at an official event, as the host for a Democratic Senator running for President.

[sandnsea]

57. That sounds pretty misguided to me

"The gloves are off and if there's going to be a war, there's going to be a war. But it will be a war with a purpose?.I'm not in the mood to play with those who are trying to kill our children."

But he hasn't declared an actual physical war against gays. He is talking about a spiritual war about sinful behavior, which is where he is misguided. Education and communication is the answer. There's hope for the McClurkin's of the world. There's certainly no hope for Imus as he went right back on the attack the first day he went on the air.

[Ediacara]

60. Split hairs much?

After all, if you're not almost dead, it isn't torture....

[NMMNG]

75. Don't try to claim

That people who use that "spiritual war" garbage don't engage in physical attacks on LGBT people. If they themselves don't do it, people who have been inspired by their hateful rhetoric certainly do. And physical attacks aside, you cannot discount the emotional, psychological and spiritual harm done to the LGBTs by them. These "Ex-Gay" bigots are some of the most dangerous monsters in recent history. They use the language of love and religion, but they're causing egregious harm. They are vicious wolves in sheep's clothing.

There is no hope for the psycho-social terrorists. They need to be told in no uncertain terms that their bigotry is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Hate in the name of religion is still hate. "Hate the sin, not the sinner" is still hate.

[Ediacara]

59. There is absolutely no element of "love" in the ex-gay paradigm

It's motivated by hate and creates hate.

[sandnsea]

62. No, it isn't

I know you don't understand, but to many people of faith, they are reaching out in love to help people. They do not all hate gays.

[Ediacara]

66. I'm afraid not

They're masking their hate with the Good Book. Just as bigots before them masked their hate with the Good Book in support of slavery, racism, and sexism.

[sandnsea]

71. Tammy Faye Baker too?

She was a huge friend to the gay community, and yet she felt homosexuality was a sin. You're just wrong. Not every person who thinks homosexuality is a sin is a hater. Communication is the answer.

[Ediacara]

74. Did Tammy Faye support ex-gay programs?

And quite frankly you're wrong. If you think an inborn unchangeable element of a person is a sin, you are hateful. You can mask it in religion or ignorance all you want, but at the end of the day, it's motivated by hate.

[sandnsea]

76. It's motivated by ignorance

Your animosity, otoh, is definitely motivated by hate.

[NMMNG]

79. The "Ex-Gay" industry is a nothing but hate

masquerading as love and "therapy".

<snip>
For decades, Exodus International had disingenuously claimed that it had no agenda but to “change” gay people into heterosexuals. But now this pretense has been stripped away as we see that its real aim is to change laws so that GLBT people will remain a persecuted minority.

“The lives of thousands of former homosexuals, like me, verify that homosexuality is not an immutable trait, therefore marriage is not a civil right to be casually granted to any group who demands it,” said Chambers in a press release.

The reason the president is embracing Exodus is because polls show that Americans who believe homosexuality can be cured are far more likely to support anti-gay legislation. For example, a November 2004 Lake, Snell, Perry and Associates poll shows that 79 percent of people who think homosexuality is inborn support civil unions or marriage equality. Among those who believe sexual orientation is a choice, only 22 percent support civil unions or marriage rights.


Although Exodus leaders pretend they love openly gay people, their true feelings are transparent. “As a property owner of Orlando, I wouldn't rent to someone who is gay any more than I would rent to a person who is a practicing witch,” Chambers once lovingly told an Orlando newspaper.

<snip>

http://web.archive.org/web/20060613193338/http://www.truthwinsout.org/news.

Potential Messages to Countering
the Anti -Gay Television Ad Blitz

Background
Religious political extremist groups are scheduled to launch a $2 to 4 million antigay
national television ad campaign in early 1999. The campaign is titled “Truth In
Love” and will feature “ex-gays” who say they are now heterosexual through prayer,
“ex-gay” ministries and “reparative” therapy. The ads will be very similar to the incendiary
newspaper advertising campaign that received national attention last summer
with headlines such as “From Innocence To AIDS.”

<snip>


Primary Messages
<snip>
• This ad campaign is not about love. It is about politics. This campaign has very
little to do with “changing” gay people, and a whole lot to do with changing laws
that protect gay and lesbian Americans from discrimination.


Second-Tier Messages
<snip>
• This reckless, divisive rhetoric creates a climate where fear and hatred can flourish,
and this often leads to violence against gay and lesbian Americans.

• All respected mental health and medical organizations reject “ex-gay” ministries
and reparative therapy.

Third-Tier Messages

• These ads incorrectly imply that gay and lesbian Americans are not people of faith.
The fact that the largest gay organization in the world is the Metropolitan
Community Church shows the depth of spirituality within our community.

• This ad campaign dehumanizes gay people by falsely claiming that they are broken
and defective and need to be fixed. Most gay people who are out of the closet live
rich, fulfilling and productive lives. Gay people don’t need to be changed. What
needs to be changed is discriminatory behavior that divides society.

• Most people who have been through these ministries — and call themselves ex-ex
gays— refer to their experience as psychological terrorism.

<snip>

http://web.archive.org/web/20070112073903/http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/Publications1/Responding_to_Anti_Gay_Change_Ads/agpb.pdf



"Ex-Gay" groups do not work out of love. They work out of hate. They are not trying to help, they are trying to harm. They are trying to take our rights away and eradicate us. They are hate groups.

[Solon]

81. "...to help people", yeah, by abusing them...

Fucking pathetic, oh, and stop using "people of faith" its offensive and lumps all of us in with bigoted assholes like McClosetcase.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

33. I'm friends with people who are bigoted and homophobic

I guess I see it as my duty to try and change their minds over time. You would prefer I never speak to them again, I suppose.

I don't think life is that black and white. People can be "good" people and still be dead wrong on important issues, like gay marriage. This is mostly out of ignorance (like not knowing ANY gay people) in my experience. Obama recognizes this fact of American society and has spoken to it many times.

[Ediacara]

35. There's a difference between trying to change a friend's mind

and embracing that friend's ignorance as a badge of honor.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

78. did Obama get McClurkin on stage because

he's a very popular gospel singer or because he is an ex-gay bigot? if you think it's because he's an ex-gay homophobe, then I can never change your mind about this.

[Solon]

38. He could have done it without embracing child abusers who deserve jailtime over anything else...

Look up exactly WHAT the "ex-gay movement" actually involves, especially for GLBT teens, and you would be appalled by this. This goes far beyond a few people who feel "uncomfortable" about homosexuality or marriage equality, into activities that should be outlawed.

[Maven]

40. Do you have friends who make a second career out of spreading homophobia?

Because if so, you should reevaluate your friends.

[mondo joe]

50. And if you give them a free forum to spew bigoted lies, that's a problem.

[krabigirl]

51. Hmmm..I don't think he's homophobic, but he's born-again. ro

I wouldn't expect him to embrace gays and lesbians...it would be against his religion. And he sure talks about religion...a lot.

But I don't think he's a homophobe or will enact legislation to harm the gay and lesbian community.

[okasha]

70. No, it wouldn't be against his religion.

He's UCC, and UCC ordains gays and performs same-sex marriages.

[LWolf]

56. Good luck with that, lol. n/t

[LittleClarkie]

68. Fair enough.

Personally, if I don't want Hillary, then I have no choice but to pick Obama, as Edwards is not viable anymore near as I can tell.

And I do hope the hopeful rhetoric is more than just that. He talks a good game.

And the Kerry endorsement helped tremendously.

[Tulkas]

69. It sounds like you hate Donnie... how is that rejecting hate Unconditionally?

Just messing with ya.

[karlrschneider]

80. No doubt he should do as you say in any case but he has no chance of being elected.

We really need to be more focused on nominating somebody who can actually win. (It probably isn't Hillary either)