A dilemma for Carter?

[question everything]

One would think that Carter would prefer Obama. Both share this naive wild eyed view of the world. Where if you will just ask dictators and murdered to please, please play nice and, of course, will call Jesus as a charcter witness, everything will be OK.

Yet, it is accepted that Kennedy's fierce race against Carter in the 1980 primaries wounded the party and made it easier for Reagan to win.

On the other hand, when Obama blasts the "excess of the 60s and the 70s" who does he have in mind: JFK? RFK? Lyndon Johnson? Carter? The Civil Rights movement? The women's movement?

[Frances]

1. I was all set to vote for Obama when he made that

statement about the excesses of the 60s and 70s.

Now I'm back to undecided

[book_worm]

2. "both share this naive wild eyed view of the world" Jimmy Carter has done more to foster

peace than almost anybody I know. I'm proud that he is a democrat and a Nobel Peace Prize winner.

[MyNameGoesHere]

4. I agree but remember

Carter was forced to change his foreign policy after it became apparent it would not work. Unfortunately he went to the Kissinger/Nixon model and that was even worse. At that particular time in history Carter ended up being the "wrong" outsider, uniter, and nice guy to make a difference. One can only hope the next democratic president will not fail as Carter did in foreign policy. But look at where we are now... Failed economy, Failed unpopular war, Oil at all time highs. Hmm deja vu?

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Camp David accords didn't work? Last Egypt/Israel war was when?

Selective memory?

[MyNameGoesHere]

12. Sure they worked

the Jews and Muslims love each other and last i heard there is a big shin dig on the Euphrates next week. And btw Sadat getting gunned down was just a movie stunt, and Russia invading Afghanistan and starting the Taliban, pure hyperbole.

I absolutely like President Carter, My first vote ever was to him. But due to his philosophy and the way Washington and the world operated he didn't hav a chance.

Selective reality?

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. Oh, so you think things would be better now if Israel and Egypt

had been at war for the past 40 years.

Sure, Sadat was assassinated for making peace. But the peace held anyway.

And Russia going into Afghanistan had nothing to do with that. 'Somebody' overthrew the Afghani king, and in the ensuing power struggle the communists came out on top - and to hold their position they asked for help from the Soviets who were glad to give it. Unlike with us in either Iraq or Afghanistan there was a feeble but legitimate government that asked for the Russian troops. BTW, WE funded the Taliban.

Talk about selective reality.

[MyNameGoesHere]

15. Or

the Soviets viewed a weakened US foreign policy and took advantage of the situation? And is it really peace or they just tolerate one another? And then the whole Nicaraguan thing, oh boy that worked out swell. I am just pointing out that after years of a really messed up admin you have to be careful who gets the job of putting it back together. THAT is reality. I just think making nice won't work again, as it didn't before.

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. The whole Nicaraguan thing?

Now I understand. You actually believe all the propaganda put out in the Reagan years. About Afghanistan. Nicaragua - I suppose you approved of the invasion of Grenada, too.

Samoza was a brutal dictator who was replaced, as RW dictators usually are, by a democratic/socialist/communist coalition government. We have no idea how that would have turned out because Reagan declared an undeclared war on Nicaragua as soon as it happened.

We were absolutely right to allow Samoza to fall. If we had actually supported the democratic forces that helped his ouster we could have actually retained a bit of influence there. It was Reagan that fucked that up, along with CIA/VP Bush.

"...is it really a peace..." If they are not shooting at each other, YES. What other criteria is there?

[MyNameGoesHere]

18. Um no

i did not approve of the Grenada thing or as i like to call it the dumb rich kid rescue. And no i do not believe in propaganda. You sir/madam are starting to get a little vicious. Carter should never have had a North/South policy and just left those people alone. It was an insignificant event really and by no means required ANY US involvement.

And yes peace is more than just not shooting at each other. What good does that do if you never evolve beyond your differences?

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. What do you mean 'north/south policy'?

He declared hands off on Nicaragua, and let the Nicaraguan people sort it out for themselves. He returned control of the American colony of the Canal Zone to the Panamanians. That sounds like 'self-determination' to me. The involvement in both came under Reagan.

What good does it do to stop the shooting? Do I really need to answer that?

BTW, the 'dumb rich kid rescue' was REAGAN'S stated reason. The REAL reason was that they had just ELECTED a socialist government that opened relations with Cuba and Reagan went in to topple it. The kids were NEVER in any danger. That was just Reagan's propaganda.

[MyNameGoesHere]

21. Uh yeah

that was a little sarcasm ... You really are a little wound up aren't you. Ok try this take a shot of Tequila with a heroin chaser. It will surely knock the edge right off. And did you just skip over the "evolve beyond differences part" ? So what i have a neighbor i don't shoot at but we do not get along. The problem is i would like to get along, but hell we aren't shooting so it's all good right?

[question everything]

14. As with Clinton and the 1993 Oslo accord

these negotiations started by the sides themselves. Remember Sadat came to Israel in 1977?

The White House blessings came to provide better exposure to all sides involved.

[jasmine621]

3. I think Carter disdain for the Clintons trumps anything else.

Carter, underneath, is really a spiteful southern gent. I still love him but that doesn't mean I don't understand him. He hated what Bill did with Monica and he holds that against Hillary...why, I don't know. My guess is that he will jump on the Obama bandwagon. Just a guess.

[suston96]

5. I don't remember it as a "fierce race in 1980" I remember Carter "whipped his ass"! nt.

[FredScuttle]

6. "Naive, wild-eyed view of the world", "just ask dictators and murderers to play nice"

James Baker, is that you?

:eyes:

[jaysunb]

7. Not sure how old you are

or where you were during that time, but, I was an adult who can bear witness to the excesses of all the things you mentioned and more. Many good and bad issues were taken to the extreme. We had a war that was more contentious and longer than any in our history. Impeachment of a President . the criminal fallout that went with it, oil & gas prices, social upheavals and soo much more.

Remember, every excess is not neccessarily good or bad, but were in fact excessive.

[Jane Austin]

11. Who was impeached during the 60's?

Do you mean assassinated?

That was a national trauma, and many of us will never forget that sad, sad time.

[jaysunb]

22. "excess of the 60s and the 70s"

from the OP.

Kennedy's assasination could also be considered an excess, as well as the Goldwater movement which was designed to prevent the federal government from enforcing the laws of the land, particularly in the case of civil/states rights.
BTW, wasn't Sen Clinton a "Goldwater Girl ?"

[question everything]

16. What about the excess of the 80s?

Under Obama's "idol" Reagan we saw the beginning of the end of a stable middle class, where even high school dropout could get a job in a factory.

Reaganomics ushered the era of investors bankers who negotiated mergers and acquisitions that, win or lose, they got their fat fees. Even in the old says of robber barons, you had entrepreneurs who took chances on their new ventures. This ushered also the obscene compensations for Wall Streeters and CEOs. Didn't Leona Helmsley reign during the 80s?

And these mergers and acquisitions resulted in raiding the assets of the new prizes while laying off many employees.

And Iran-Contra, and the invasions of Granada and Nicaragua, and firing of the flight controllers and deregulation everything and, of course "government is the problem."

Bill Maher was on Leno a few weeks ago and he was talking about "trickle down economics" and he said that, first, it does not work but even if it did - how offensive this term is. Let the rich get their spoils and all we get are what trickled down?

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. Wow. A real broadside. Are there any Dems you WON'T attack? nt

[ieoeja]

10. Remember when all the Arab nations supported us against Iraq in '91?

Had a friend involved with those negotations. Said there wasn't much to negotiate as time and time again they heard, "sure, we trust the United States. Unlike the countries of Europe, you have never established an imperial presence in the Middle East. You also let Iran go their own way when you could have blown them out of the water, and you helped secure a lasting peace between Israel and Egypt."

He said a lot of military personnel in the Pentagon revised their opinion of the Carter administration as his "maybe we could actually try being NICE once in awhile" policy yielded these unexpected results.

[Occam Bandage]

19. Wow, a slam against Obama, Carter *and* Kennedy.