So, how should Sen. Clinton have responded?

[journalist3072]

I wonder....how should Sen. Clinton have responded, when:

- Barack Obama said to the Chicago Tribune: "The default candidate for Democrats in this race was always going to be Hillary Clinton because she's Hillary Clinton as opposed to Hillary Rodham."

Source: http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071012/FRONTPAGE/710120309

- David Axelrod (Obama's Karl Rove) says: "The fact that Senator Clinton is a polarizing figure in American politics is not even a point of debate. It's an empirical fact."

Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aKQBgpmscW.0&refer=us

- While campaigning for Barack Obama, Laurence Tribe says of Sen. Hillary Clinton: "She's not really a phony, though she plays one on TV."

Source: http://www.cmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071114/OPINION/711140415/1028/OPINION02

- Barack Obama says Sen. Clinton is: "afraid of losing a propaganda battle to some small-time dictator."

Source: http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070930/FRONTPAGE/709300302/1043/NEWS01

- Obama Co-Chair Jesse Jackson, Jr. says we have to "analyze" the Clinton tears that "melted" the Granite state, and that she didn't cry about Katrina.

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNrlSn7ndAA

- Joe Trippi, Senior Advisor to John Edwards, said of Sen. Clinton: "Let's kick her ass."

Source: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1107/6822.html

Dave "Mudcat" Saunders, strategist for the John Edwards campaign, accuses Sen. Clinton of having "toxic coattails."

Source:
http://archives.gophercentral.com/Edwards_Says_He's_Most_Electable,_but..._progressive_review.html

A John Edwards campaign memo calls Sen. Clinton (and Barack Obama) "flawed choices."

Source: http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/edwards_campaign_memo_11408.pdf

Michelle Obama says Sen. Clinton "represents the same old thing over and over again."

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/18/wuspols118.xml

The Obama campaign circulates a memo referring to Sen. Clinton as "Hillary Clinton (D-Punjab)." Note: To his credit, Obama did apologize for this, though he never fired the person(s) responsible for the memo.

Source: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/19/news/obama.php

The Obama campaign links Sen. Clinton's Iraq War Resolution vote, to Butto's assassination:

REPORTER: But looking ahead, does the assassination put on the front burner foreign policy credentials in the closing days?

AXELROD: Well, it puts on the table foreign policy judgment, and that's a discussion we welcome. Barack Obama had the judgment to oppose the war in Iraq, and he warned at the time it would divert us from Afghanistan and Al Qaeda, and now we see the effect of that. Al Qaeda's resurgent, they're a powerful force now in Pakistan, they may have been involved — we've been here, so I don't know whether the news has been updated, but there's a suspicion they may have been involved in this. I think his judgment was good. Sen. Clinton made a different judgment, so let's have that discussion.

Source: http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1207/Obamas_Pakistan_spin.html

See also:

And while many campaigns took studiously apolitical public stances in the wake of Bhutto’s murder, Obama’s advisers were frank in arguing that the new crisis on the subcontinent vindicates their candidate. Obama aides took particular aim at Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, arguing that her vote to authorize the war in Iraq indirectly led to the turmoil in Pakistan by sapping resources from the battle against Al Qaeda. The skirmish reflects a larger struggle between an establishment Democratic view of the world and Obama’s call for a generational shift.

“Those who made the judgment that we ought to divert our attention from Afghanistan to invade Iraq and allow Al Qaeda to reconstitute and strengthen are now having to assess the wisdom of that judgment as we may be seeing yet another manifestation of Al Qaeda’s potency,” said Susan Rice, a top Obama foreign policy adviser who was an assistant secretary of state in the Clinton administration, in an interview with Politico.

Source: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1207/7590.html


So, what exactly was Sen. Clinton to do? The same thing that John Kerry did in 2004? Let yourself be swiftboated without responding in a timely and forceful manner? Should she have just let the attacks go unresponded?

So, to Ted Kennedy and all the other so-called Democrats expressing faux outrage over the Clinton campaign, check yourself.

And while you're at it, check out this website: http://www.attacktimeline.com/

[ecstatic]

1. I think the worst is over, and it's time for both camps to move on nt

[journalist3072]

2. I say this with all due respect, and I hope I'm wrong, but I see that as your way of not

wanting to deal with the issue and hold the other campaigns (Obama and Edwards) accountable. I've heard people say before let's move on, and wipe the slate clean.

And that's usually code for not wanting to deal with the issue at hand, and hold certain people accountable.

[neutron]

16. Obama has been Sliming Clinton

in the blogs since summer. Of course he lets his
operatives say the dirty stuff while he stays above
the fray. Hillary supporters were Troll rated
out of Daily Kos. So viewers could not see an
alternate opinion.

This guy is very shrewd.

What I hate most is what a bad loser he is. When
he won Iowa, Clinton congratulated him.

When she won NH, Obama operatives screamed she
"Rigged the Election" and got Kucinich to back a
recount (Kucinich is an Obama supporter.)

As a result of the recount, Clinton picked up MORE votes.

Then the NV election - union thugs told their people not
to show up unless they were going to vote for Obama.

The media didn't cover that little dirty tidbig. Bill Clinton
had to complain about it. When he did, the media jumped
all over him.

I don't like the way the msm is bashing the Clintons, or
the shit going on in the blogs.

I think we are lucky to have the Clintons in our party, and
they are being victimized.

[Evergreen Emerald]

29. I agree with you completely

Politics as usual Bush style.

[Knox Harrington]

38. I agree completely

Obama has the media bought and paid for, but (of course) we can't expect the media to report on that. The MSM has been been corrupted by the overwhelming Obama political machine.

Meanwhile, the only time they ever even bring HRC up is when they criticize her. It's hard to see Bill and Hillary marginalized like this. How soon some forget.

[BenDavid]

52. It is so good to see others noting this and thank you all......

[1corona4u]

22. Exactly. Just sweep it under the rug.

Take no responsibility for it. I still remember that someone in the Obama supporter/campaign, put out the very first video slamming Hillary. Very early on. No one seemed to know where it came from, but it was well done. Remember that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h3G-lMZxjo&feature=related

[neutron]

Obama and Edwards

were doing a lot of stuff. Edwards supporters were calling Clinton "Clitnon" - very cute.

[journalist3072]

26. Yep...I most certainly do remember that. And you are absolutely correct.

[NashVegas]

59. I Remember That

When it first hit town, everyone was marveling about what a great job that was for an amateur.

Me and two other DUers knew damn well it was a professional job, but no one wanted to hear it, everyone wanted to think that came from "the net roots."

What that video did, that Obama continues to do, is campaign against other Dems by using Right Wing talking points. And that's why there ain't no fucking way he gets my vote in the primaries.

[robbedvoter]

11. What makes you think the worst is over? MSM is ramping it up and the beneficiaries

are not stopping any of it. The only thing happening is that more people will get angry and show up to vote for Hillary to demonstrate their free thinking ( a few people told me they'll do so as a result of last night hysteria on MSNBC)

[journalist3072]

15. Definitely agree with you about the MSM. eom

[neutron]

21. We are dropping cable

I am sick of CNN and MSNBC.

CNN has killed off every one of our top candidates.

They crucified Al Gore, they let Kerry get Swiftboated,
they made Howard Dean look like a bufoon, and now
they're crapping all over the Clintons.

They'll fuck over our elected candidate as well.

We are not payiing CNN to screw our candidate, and
ultimately US!!!!

We are FED UP.

[Clintonite]

3. Crickets

[sniffa]

4. Awesome journalism

:thumbsup:

[ErnestoG]

5. Obama was correct on every point. Whats the problem?

[AtomicKitten]

18. The people had the audacity to say it out loud?

:shrug:

[neutron]

25. if it had been reversed

it would be aired 24/7 on CNN, and scolded by every
writer in the NYT.
But little Golden Boy can do no wrong.

[robbedvoter]

34. For now. Don't forget, he loses the magic armor the second they lose use for him

[LeftCoast]

56. You are 100% correct!

[NashVegas]

60. He Can Dish It Out But He Can't Take It

Glass jaw.

[AX10]

6. K/R

There are alot of Dems on my "crap list" these days.

[Egnever]

7. With honesty

Thats not her style though is it?

[robbedvoter]

8. Thank you. The reporting is ALWAYS one sided - making believe that big bad Hillary

is picking on sweet, nice innocent Obama. I myself was unaware of most of these.
That never gets covered. It's like listening to a phone conversation where you only hear one side.

[cloud75]

9. soon it will catch up to obama...i think people are getting tired of his

of his one trick pony show...i've done a lot of research on him because i'm trying to decide and the only thing going for him is he last name is not Clinton and he gives great speeches...other than that he is not a great debater, his sit down interviews with talking heads are boring (he's not charming at all) and his list of accomplishments are short. i'm leaning toward hillary...i know there are plenty of negatives but it's all right winged propoganda and i've never listed to them like others on du.

[question everything]

24. No. Teflon candidate like his hero, Reagon (nt)

[robbedvoter]

30. Teflon is MSM made - for a Dem only lasts until the chance to be designated loser

is over. They embraced dean in 2004 - but eventually, they all met in Kerry's living room and crowned him nominee - before the vote started. So, dean was surprised to see what other candidates went through. He was "scream" ed out of the race (the hint has been going for some time by then). Then Kerry had a - very brief honeymoon - anout 2 months just enough to be sure he locked the nomination. Then they pounced - from all directions.
Just reminding those of you who think yourself protected and invincible - it's just bait, And it's just temporary.

[rodeodance]

47. He is too swave-I do not think it will --maybe when tooo late.

[GoldieAZ49]

10. Hillary got her website up and going in good time

no surprise her attacktimeline site doesn't show her or Bills attacks

[niceypoo]

12. There were no attacks

Just media hype of mild criticism.

[JohnnyLib2]

13. Your point about Kerry and the swiftboating really hits home.

Lord knows, we raised a mighty howl about that. I'm not happy about all of her responses, but "hitting back quickly" needs to be done.

[journalist3072]

14. Exactly...I was so disappointed in John Kerry in 2004, and even wrote an email to his campaign

about how they needed to respond to the Swiftboaters, because many people would think, well, if he doesn't respond, they must be right.

I'm glad to see that Sen. Clinton doesn't just let her name get dragged through the mud without responding.

And I'm appauled by the folks here on DU, the MSM, Ted Kennedy, and anyone else who thinks she's responsible for the mess this campaign has become.

[AX10]

17. Here's five of them:

Ted Kennedy
Claire McCastkill
Jesse Jackson Jr.
Dick Durbin
Jim Clyburn

[journalist3072]

20. Yep...exactly. eom

[rodeodance]

39. the media keeps telling the world it is Bills or hills fault for not controlling him and Sheepy lap

it up.

[question everything]

19. But, but... Obama is supposed to be the nice guy

the uniter. Clinton is supposed to be the wicked one.

:sarcasm:


As for your question:

I trust the American people who know the facts and can separate them from a propaganda of a desperate campaign.

In 2002 the American people were united in stopping any attempt at future terror attacks on our people. We remember that the Hussein regime used chemical weapons to kill thousands of his own people and we had no reason to doubt the arguments presented by this administration.

As the war dragged on, and as I, and the American people, realized that all the assumptions about the cause, duration and conclusion of the war were false, I stood up and and started asking questions.

As a United States Senator I take responsibility for my actions, which is more than I can say for others who, from a safe distance, took a stand that they knew would generate attention as it was against what the American people agreed at the time, and without worrying about the consequences of such talk.

Of course, once the man from Illinois joined the United States Senate, he changed his tune and as records show, has agreed with me on all the votes.

[Tatiana]

23. I really don't see these as attacks so much as arguments.

Hillary *is* polarizing; that doesn't mean she can't win.

The fact that her last name is Clinton did give her a boost early on and lead to her front-runner status. It's called "name recognition." That doesn't mean she isn't a viable candidate in her own right (e.g. JFK, RRK).

She has every right to respond to these criticisms. I don't know who is saying she shouldn't respond to them.

[robbedvoter]

31. Her responses are called "vicious attacks" as the thing she is responding to

is usually hidden. I thought I was fairly well informed - yet most of this stuff is news to me.

[Tatiana]

43. I don't think it's Hillary's attacks that are deemed vicious.

It's her husband's.

[GoldieAZ49]

27. From Hillary's attacktimeline website

I go back to her first listed attack from Obama

Senator Barack Obama yesterday launched his toughest attack yet on his rival Hillary Clinton, blasting her for backing the "tragic mistake" of the Iraq war and voting to give President George W Bush a green light from Congress.

in the article linked from HER OWN SITE states:

Mr Obama, 45, who has been criticized by the Clinton camp for a lack of experience, showed that he was not going to let his main opponents off the hook.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/12/wobama12.xml

Both were in the first minute of reading the same article.

Funny, I thought the Iraq war was one of the ISSUES. But hey, you support Hillary and her vote for the war, well that is your right.

Obama was opposed to it and needs to say so, it is a difference between candidates that some of us consider significant.

Hint: using a candidates own website is seldom impartial.

[journalist3072]

28. Get a clue...The attack line website simply puts all the information in one place...They LINK you to

other websites that actually have the attack...they link you to the articles, etc. that show the attack.

Their job was to simply put it all on one place for you to see..and they provide the links and the evidence.

Nice try, though, on your part.

[GoldieAZ49]

40. RIGHT

and the linked article on her site states that she had criticized him before he started running.

to bad you didn't read my post, or just couldn't comprehend it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

44. It makes it look like everything was generated from the Obama

camp - but of course, the "talking to dictators" meme came from Hillary's attack on Obama, calling him naive, for saying he would talk to those foreign leaders without precondition. So his 'attack' was actually a response.

Jesus fucking christ the spinning here makes me dizzy.

[frogcycle]

32. well stated

The sad fact is that a lot of people, myself included, just can't seem to get a break. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Neighbors dog barks all night; you complain; you're a troublemaker.

Somebody smoking in your face (back when it was not restricted) and you ask that they stop so you can enjoy your meal? You're a troublemaker.

It is impossible to determine what campaign "started it" but the judgment of society does not care about that anyway. It decides who is a troublemaker, and then finds evidence to support that.

Because Obama is the "newbie" he can get away with just about anything. Because Hillary is, well, Hillary, she can't win for losing.

Then a bunch of self-righteous pompous asses pile on.
Note my sig disclaimer - I am NOT saying HRC is without blame - far from it - but just that the whole stinking mess is disgusting.

[robbedvoter]

33. Being the "newbie" has nothing to do with it. MSM has him as "designated loser"

to their guy. Plus in the process they manage to muddle our strength (diversity) and make it into a liability. It's a win-win for them.

[frogcycle]

35. well, yeah, that too

I can't wait to see him riding in a tank

another democratic presidential hope bite the dust

[rodeodance]

36. This really surprises me--that Obama would say this--It is something I would

expect from the Hannity types!!

- Barack Obama said to the Chicago Tribune: "The default candidate for Democrats in this race was always going to be Hillary Clinton because she's Hillary Clinton as opposed to Hillary Rodham."

Source: http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID...

[RaleighNCDUer]

45. Bad link, and bullshit besides.

Face it, if Hillary Clinton was Hillary Rodham, she wouldn't be running. She'd MAYBE be a congressperson - because she wouldn't have been made Senator but for the Clinton name as well.

She's just not that good a politician.

[rodeodance]

37. Well, I am going to send -fax it to Ted Kennedy office.

So, to Ted Kennedy and all the other so-called Democrats expressing faux outrage over the Clinton campaign, check yourself.

And while you're at it, check out this website: http://www.attacktimeline.com /

[journalist3072]

42. Are you really going to do that? I was going to suggest sending this to Ted Kennedy...he needs to

know about the so-called purist he'll be endorsing tomorrow.

[rodeodance]

48. yes, i am. can not email as i do not live in mass. but will fax in the am

[journalist3072]

57. Awesome! Keep up the great work!!!! eom

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. Hey, where's the Clinton on Edwards, and Clinton on Obama timelines?

You do want to be fair and balanced, don't you?

[RaleighNCDUer]

41. Are all these 'references' as disingenuous as this one?

- Barack Obama says Sen. Clinton is: "afraid of losing a propaganda battle to some small-time dictator."


No, he did NOT say - what he said, in the link you posted, was:

"It's not enough just to end the war in Iraq," Obama said. "We've got to change our mindset about how we think about foreign policy. . . . We can't just talk to our friends. We've got to talk to our enemies. . . . I'm not afraid of losing a propaganda battle with a bunch of small-time dictators. It doesn't make us look tough when we don't talk to our enemies. It makes us look arrogant."

This was, you might remember, after she FIRST attacked him for saying in the debate, that he would be willing to talk to certain foreign leaders without pre-condition, claiming he was naive.

Just keep throwing out the shit, and see what sticks.

[rodeodance]

49. REC

[kdpeters]

50. Thanks for the list. I have a couple of responses.

It's nice to have the things being alleged all in one place and a reference.
Here are my impressions of those I checked...

- Barack Obama said to the Chicago Tribune: "The default candidate for Democrats in this race was always going to be Hillary Clinton because she's Hillary Clinton as opposed to Hillary Rodham."

The quote is incomplete. It continues on, "There's a feeling of we know what we'll get with Sen. Clinton. With me, I've got to make the case much more affirmatively because I haven't been on the national scene as long."

Without the entire quote, it seems to imply something else. That one wasn't really fair. In context, it's pretty benign.

- David Axelrod (Obama's Karl Rove) says: "The fact that Senator Clinton is a polarizing figure in American politics is not even a point of debate. It's an empirical fact."

I don't find anything inappropriate even taken at face value. She evokes strong feelings in people . Many very positive. Many very negative. I don't read any more meaning than that.

- While campaigning for Barack Obama, Laurence Tribe says of Sen. Hillary Clinton: "She's not really a phony, though she plays one on TV."

Because she was taking questions from her own planted shills! She can just suck this one up. Good for Dr. Tribe. She got what she deserved. I think it's kind of lame to whine about this one. Seriously!


So at this point I'm noticing a pattern and noticing that the list seems like it might have a little bit of padding in it. I figured I'd try one more. I skimmed the list for something to pop out.

The Obama campaign circulates a memo referring to Sen. Clinton as "Hillary Clinton (D-Punjab)." Note: To his credit, Obama did apologize for this, though he never fired the person(s) responsible for the memo.

Aw, that is terrible and it's even worse in context. I can't believe how stupid that was, not to mention they got caught being sneaky about it too. This was a good example. I'm glad he apologized, but that was really really boneheaded.

Thanks for the challenge.
Karl

[Tulkas]

51. By dropping out would have been the best way for all of us

[avrdream]

53. Thanks for the analysis.

Though this will probably drop like a rock in a pond with the way GDP is these days.

[cali]

54. disingenuous crap from Hilly's website

have fun with your orgasmic Clinton circle....

[journalist3072]

58. Grow the fuck up and look at the facts.

[VotesForWomen]

55. Shhhhh. don't you know it's the *clintons* who are nasty? nt

[DianaForRussFeingold]

61. K&R -Obama has mastered the game

"Joe Lieberman: Barack Obama's "Mentor in the Senate.
BY THERSITES
I want to like Barack Obama. His riveting, energizing speech at the last Democratic National Convention converted him from an attractive Senate candidate into the leading Democratic candidate for first African-American Vice-President and, eventually, President. His statement that "we worship an awesome God in the blue states" not only articulated the beliefs of that misunderstood, underrepresented and vital majority of Democrats and Independents who possess some sort of religious faith, but his use of evangelical language -- "awesome God" -- reclaimed territory we had ceded to the Republicans and showed that not all Democratic politicians are tone deaf to religious nuance. I really want to like Barack Obama.

But then I read things like the following, which comes from an otherwise-delightful New York Times article about Democrats ignoring and even booing Joe Lieberman at a recent event:

However, the audience was riveted as Senator Barack Obama of Illinois, the guest speaker at the $175-a-plate dinner, stood on the podium and began the customary round
of recognition of candidates and incumbents in the room. When he got to Mr. Lieberman, who is his mentor in the Senate and who helped recruit him to speak at the event, the applause again was muted.

"I know that some in the party have differences with Joe," Senator Obama said, all but silencing the crowd. "I'm going to go ahead and say it. It's the elephant in the room. And Joe and I don't agree on everything. But what I know is, Joe Lieberman's a man with a good heart, with a keen intellect, who cares about the working families of America."

Then, with applause beginning to build, he finished the thought: "I am absolutely certain that Connecticut's going to have the good sense to send Joe Lieberman back to the United States Senate."

Joe Lieberman -- gutter of bankruptcy protection for working people facing disastrous health emergencies, supporter of an illegal war that's killed over 2,000 working-class Americans, apologist for hospitals that deny birth control to rape victims -- secretly has a "good heart" and "cares about working families"?"

" at an age and place in his career where he should still be known for idealism, he instead is known for political astuteness. He has mastered the game instead of the ideals, applies his genius to playing the angles instead of changing the world for the better."
"Yow." http://vichydems.blogspot.com/2006/04/joe-lieberman-barack-obamas-mentor-in.html

'Which candidate is a LEADER and which are politicians?
Elizabeth Edwards - A Glimpse Behind The Curtain http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhYN9nSIw6Q

"America’s fastest-growing quiz sensation is "...
http://www.correntewire.com/what_obama_really_meant#comment-70840

[busymom]

62. Honestly...

By being above the fray....but that is hard...I've gotten into it too.

She needs to hold her head up high in an "I'm sorry that you feel that way" tone and address what makes her the best candidate....She needs to be talking about the issues, smiling, and talking about asshat Bush. It's better to ignore people when they go on the attack...or at least dismiss it as petty squabbling and move on. She can clear up certain things in a factual way...but leave the emotional arguments for talks about Bush and co...and her love for america.

go hillary!!!!