When discussing gay issues with someone, is their use of the term "homosexual" a red flag for you?

[LostinVA]

It is for me, unless the person is over a certain age(ie --quite elderly).

[XemaSab]

1. Correct me if I'm wrong

but hasn't there been an evolution of terminology, where "gay" used to be un-PC but then it became the accepted term, and the same thing is now happening with the word "queer?" :shrug:

I assume that unless the person's obviously bashing they're just not aware of the appropriate terminology. (With the word Oriental being another example of this.)

[LostinVA]

3. I don't remember "gay" ever being un-PC

[Hissyspit]

22. Depended on the context (who was using it, and how they were using it):

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gay

- Usage note: In addition to its original and continuing senses of “merry, lively” and “bright or showy,” gay has had various senses dealing with sexual conduct since the 17th century. A gay woman was a prostitute, a gay man a womanizer, a gay house a brothel. This sexual world included homosexuals too, and gay as an adjective meaning “homosexual” goes back at least to the early 1900s. After World War II, as social attitudes toward sexuality began to change, gay was applied openly by homosexuals to themselves, first as an adjective and later as a noun. Today, the noun often designates only a male homosexual: gays and lesbians. The word has ceased to be slang and is not used disparagingly. Homosexual as a noun is sometimes used only in reference to a male.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

1178, "full of joy or mirth," from O.Fr. gai "gay, merry," perhaps from Frank. *gahi (cf. O.H.G. wahi "pretty"). Meaning "brilliant, showy" is from c.1300. OED gives 1951 as earliest date for slang meaning "homosexual" (adj.), but this is certainly too late; gey cat "homosexual boy" is attested in N. Erskine's 1933 dictionary of "Underworld & Prison Slang;" the term gey cat (gey is a Scot. variant of gay) was used as far back as 1893 in Amer.Eng. for "young hobo," one who is new on the road and usually in the company of an older tramp, with catamite connotations. But Josiah Flynt <"Tramping With Tramps," 1905> defines gay cat as, "An amateur tramp who works when his begging courage fails him." Gey cats also were said to be tramps who offered sexual services to women. The "Dictionary of American Slang" reports that gay (adj.) was used by homosexuals, among themselves, in this sense since at least 1920. Rawson <"Wicked Words"> notes a male prostitute using gay in reference to male homosexuals (but also to female prostitutes) in London's notorious Cleveland Street Scandal of 1889. Ayto <"20th Century Words"> calls attention to the ambiguous use of the word in the 1868 song "The Gay Young Clerk in the Dry Goods Store," by U.S. female impersonator Will S. Hays. The word gay in the 1890s had an overall tinge of promiscuity -- a gay house was a brothel. The suggestion of immorality in the word can be traced back to 1637. Gay as a noun meaning "a (usually male) homosexual" is attested from 1971.

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

19. Gay is un-PC if it's used as a put-down, as has become common practice

And man do I hate it. Some liberals well defend their use of it, because if you're a certain age it's part of the vernacular kids are raised with. So they'll say, that's not the way I mean it. I don't give a shit, people should care about equality and fairness. That should be an important concern to any decent person. And obviously the derivation of using "gay" as a put-down is homophobic, so anyone who uses it that way should cut it out.

[LostinVA]

27. Ah -- TOTALLY agree in the "how gay" way

[harmonicon]

44. B.S.

This argument makes my bullshit detector go off. Apart from it's historic dictionary definition, 'gay' is a slang term used for various things in various ways. It is certainly part of my vernacular, and I use it all the time. It is in no way homophobic, nor is it necessarily a put-down. No way should a word be able to be co-opted for one purpose to the exclusion of others.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

64. Please deny that using "gay" as a put-down is derived from homophobia

It was obviously derived from the negative connotation pinheads have about homosexuality. You'd have to be willfully blind to deny that.

[LostinVA]

71. Look at

Their other posts in this thread.

[harmonicon]

76. oh, come on - don't paint me as the villain here.

I'm here for a discussion, which I guess is why you raised the question in the first place. If you didn't mean this in an insulting way (such as, look at what an idiot this guy is), I'm sorry.

[harmonicon]

75. I don't think it's that simple

using "gay" as a put-down (and I wouldn't say it's always a put down when describing something as 'gay'), comes from more than just negative connotations about homosexuality. I think a lot of it may have come from connotations people have with things associated with an overt (think 1970's leather bar) projection of homosexuality. I can't really say. I'm sure I used the word before I even had any idea what sex was, let alone sexual orientation. Regardless, I think it's a moot point, because the word has been with us long enough (almost as long as it was used to describe homosexuality) that it's gone well past all that. I've made the argument before that trying to vilify people who use the word 'gay' as homophobes is no more valid than saying those who use the word 'lame' hate the handicapped.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

80. What a load of bullshit.

You couldn't possibly care less about homophobia, total insensitivity about it.

[harmonicon]

83. yep, you sure know me

you know my friends and my family and you know all about what I care about.... If you aren't willing to actually have a discussion and consider that someone else may in fact have a legitimate viewpoint, I don't know what to say: get over yourself.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

86. You just couldn't live without using the word "gay" as a put-down

It'd just be too much of a hardship to go without using the word in a way the reinforces homophobia. You're just soooo committed to the equality of all, but not if you have to respect the feelings of others and (*gasp*) go without using "gay" as a put-down. That'd be the end of the world!

[harmonicon]

90. you're the one who is actively seeking to limit the personal expression of others

I can live with lots of things, but I can't live with being bullied into taking positions with which I disagree. Hey, I love unicorns. As I said to friend of mine about someone else we know: "he and I both love unicorns, but he likes them because they're beautiful majestic creatures, and I love them because they're totally gay." There you go. I guess I'm a homophobe. Enjoy your new speak.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

92. Right, blah, blah, blah, like I said, it'd be the end of the world n.t

[terrya]

2. Yes

It sure is.

The right wing fundies use that. Pat Robertson, for instance, drawls out the word..."homosexuaallllll". Very insultingly.

[LostinVA]

4. Yeah, that's my take on it, too

Unless, ad I said, it's someone very elderly I'm talking to: then, to them, it's the "PC" term.

[LeftyMom]

5. If they say it "ho-MO-SECH-shu-uhl" real long and slow like it's somebody's dirty sock held at arm's

length so it won't get germs on them? Hell yeah.

Otherwise, depends on the context.

[LostinVA]

9. I made VEGAN chili for dinner tonight

I don't know what's happening to me.

:scared:

I threw some cheese on top to calm myself down.

[LeftyMom]

17. Your wife is a terrible influence.

[LostinVA]

18. She is!

She keeps trying toget me to try Tofukey... I haven't cracked yet, though.

[LeftyMom]

52. The roast is only meh, but the sausages are really good.

And thus two subthreads came full circle.

[LostinVA]

Most impressed

[flvegan]

31. Like "VEEE-gan" it's all in the delivery for me.

I usually expect "VEEE-gan" to be followed by "terra-ist". You know, like in GD from time to time.

[LostinVA]

35. Ha! Exactly

Of course, I know that some vegans DO like meat. Like LeftyMom.

[flvegan]

36. She's an opportunistic vegan.

I've seen her put meat in her mouth time and again.

[LostinVA]

42. And I doubt it was TVP -- tsk tsk

Or a tofukey sausage.

[LeftyMom]

48. That does not count.

And shut up or I'll never, ever do it again.

[flvegan]

51. Yeah, right.

I'd quote Randall from Clerks, but it'd get this locked.

[LeftyMom]

53. Okay, you have to PM because I have no idea where you're going with that.

O8)

[LeftyMom]

47. Like in that line from the ICR about "dangerous vegans"?

I wish the full quote were better, I so wanted to sig line that puppy.

[Kali]

34. yep that was the one I was thinking

[Sparkly]

38. Perfect description!

:rofl:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

6. I think so. The more correct term is gay (I think!) I stand corrected if it isn't. nt

[LostinVA]

13. Nothing to correct, imo!

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

7. Also "sexual preference", that was included in an OP here today

I almost posted about, but figured I'd look whiny. For the record though, it's sexual orientation, if it was a choice, we'd all have a strong preference for not being discriminated against.

[LostinVA]

11. OMG -- that and "lifestyle"drive me bonkers

It's not a "lifestyle,"it's MY LIFE.

[SeattleGirl]

21. Yes! A "lifestyle" is something one chooses.

Being gay/straight/bi/transsexual/etc. is how one is born.

The "logic" of saying that being gay is a "lifestyle" confounds me. The way gays are treated in this society (and elsewhere) should be a BIG clue that it's not a choice. It's what one is, and IMHO, it's the homophobes who need to adjust their thinking, not the gay population that needs to adjust it's "lifestyle" to fit the homophobe's view of what is acceptable.

[LostinVA]

30. Yup, why would any sane person choose to be villified?

[SeattleGirl]

39. You got me.

I've yet to hear any gay person say, "I just LOVE being treated like a piece of crap!"

[LostinVA]

43. Ha -- I know!

btw --we'll be in Seattle in July, but I think we have to land at Sea-Tac and catch a ship ASAP.

[SeattleGirl]

73. Hey, maybe I can pick you guys up and take you to the ship!

Did that for another DUer a few months ago. I live about 15 minutes from SeaTac, so it's doable. Let me know!

[maddiejoan]

78. I've heard some BDSM people say that

but both gay and straight ;)

[SeattleGirl]

79. Well sure!

But that IS a lifestyle, and it's a choice (but of course, you knew that!). :)

[LeftyMom]

14. That one kills me. Long hair vs short is a preference. Standing up is a sexual preference.

It's nice to get what one prefers, but part of growing up is learning to be flexible.

Who people are oriented toward sexually and romantically is innate. It's not something that lends itself to flexibility.

[ruggerson]

8. It's equivalent to "Negro"

[Bluebear]

29. Bingo. Totally clinical and devoid of humanizing.

[NMDemDist2]

54. yup, when I read the OP I thought of my mother in law. she uses both terms

"That negro man was so nice!"

and

"Well, we knew Jimmy was a homosexual since he was 8 years old."

She's old and from a very small farming town. she means well I think (mostly)

I will say she stood up for the United Church of Christ in her little town when half the congregation wanted to break away due to the Gay rights thing. her comment was "It's not my place to judge other people" and she stuck with the church.

[LostinVA]

59. Your MIL is exactly the type of lady I meant as my "pass"

Good for her re:her UCC.

OT:Mick, our border collie, LOVES his sheepdog lessons. Today id the first time Haruka trained him and not our trainer-- they both didv ery well.

[NMDemDist2]

62. that's so cool! he'll love having a job!

they are such great dogs aren't they?

[LostinVA]

74. Oh, definitely

He's such a smart, sweet, goofy thing. He does annoy the cat by trying to herd him all the time.

[harmonicon]

57. nope

"homosexual" has a meaning which is separate from "heterosexual" - they're two different things. I don't mind people calling me a heterosexual. "Negro" is an outdated descriptive term, with certain connotations when brought into the English language. "Black" and "white" are descriptive terms useful for describing appearance.... still, it's apples and oranges, since race is a cultural construction, and "Negro" is often lumped in with discussions of "race".

[LostinVA]

60. Yup

[Maven]

10. Yes, it is.

RWers use it to both delegitimize gay/lesbian/trans identity and to alienate GLBT people from the rest of the population.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

12. I use the word all the time. But I try to be precise.

Since gay is sometimes used as short-hand for GLBT, and since gay has, historically, been somewhat male-associated (as in "gay and lesbian"), it's not always the most useful term.

I wouldn't say "homosexual marriage," but I also wouldn't say, "Until the 19th Century, England retained the death penalty for gay sex." It doesn't sound right...

But I know what you mean about people who are uncomfortable with "gay" in a way that implies they think the word "gay" is pretty "gay."

[LostinVA]

16. Your last sentence made me laugh

[AGirl]

15. kind of , esp (homosexual marriages)

Its called same sex marriages, but i think "homosexualist" is surely only said by bigots.

[harmonicon]

58. yeah, but "homosexualist" is a made-up word for purposes of derision.

So the comparison isn't really accurate.

[Joe the Revelator]

20. I hate using the term gay, in fact I was told "gays" in my family to not use it

Granted they are both lesbians, but I was told that gay was not considered proper for everyday conversation.

[KT2000]

23. I would wish that

people would judge WHAT is being said rather than responding to what may or may not be red flags.
There are many reasons why people use the words they use. A discussion with give and take will uncover those reasons. Snap judgements are not always accurate and seriously impede rational discussions.

I am just getting pretty sick of terminology being used as a tool for offense and defense. It gets us nowhere.

[Marrah_G]

24. red flag?

Can you explain further? I'm not being snarky or anything. I just need to know why, when the word is not appropriate. I wouldn't want to offend anyone.

[LostinVA]

33. When it's used as a noun, or even as an adjective, with invisible quotes around it

If you get what I mean. "Homosexuals protested out frony of XYZ, Inc. today."

Trust me, you are TOTALLY not a homophobic poster!

[Marrah_G]

49. Ahh okay I get what you mean

My daughter is still figuring out what she wants and has recently begun dating another girl. I just wanted to make sure I didn't say anything that would make her feel bad.

And thanks, I'd hate for anyone to ever think that about me.

I look at it sort of like being Wiccan. Sometimes people say offensive things about us without meaning to. I want to avoid that as much as possible with other people.

[LostinVA]

55. Like, "Oh, you're 'Pagan.' Do you worship Satan?"

You truly don't have to worry about offending your daughter -- well, I really doubt you do. How old is she? It's great she has a supportive mom while she's figuring everything out -- I had the family support, but Haruka didn't when she was younger.

[Marrah_G]

65. She's 17

She has been saying she is bisexual since she was a pre-teen but her only serious relationship to date was with a guy (it was disastrous). I've told her I honestly do not care which gender she chooses as long as she chooses her mates well. As long as whomever she chooses is someone who will be an asset to her life and not someone holding her back I'm behind her 100%. I've also told her that if she does decide she prefers female partners I will support her emotionally in any way I can.

I do worry though. I know that it's not easy dealing with ignorant or bigoted people. I also know she may find people who she thought she knew, she really didn't know at all.

[LostinVA]

89. She may be bi or she may not be

Saying she is may make it easier to accept/realize she's gay. That's how it was for me.

She will find out who her real friends, and some of the fair weather ones will hurt her.

She's so lucky she has your support. I bet you she knows that already.

[harmonicon]

61. Don't worry

No matter what you say, your daughter will sometimes feel bad - that's what parent/kid relationships are for!! Especially if she's a teenager or early 20's.

[Marrah_G]

67. Yeah- this is true.

[Kucinich4America]

25. It would depend on the context.

I'd be less troubled by someone who used "homosexual" as an adjective than as a noun. It's a valid word to describe the orientation of someone who is attracted to a person of the same gender. Much worse when used as a pejorative (i.e. "You homosexuals caused 9-11 to happen" - Jerry Falwell 9-13-01)

But as you said, it's more likely to be an elderly person who even uses it as an adjective, so I don't expect to hear "homosexual" used much at all in my allegedly Liberal town.

[Solon]

26. Not necessarily, I use it quite often, but I also like trying to be precise in my words...

I've seen the word gay being used as a put down, i.e. describing the whole McClurkin incident as "that gay issue". But I wouldn't call it a red flag, it would depend on context.

[salin]

28. Interesting question... my Mother, who is "over a certain age"

probably would have used the term "homosexual" more than a decade ago (when the whole issue was rather 'new' to her) - now that she has more familiarity in the sense of numerous friends who are gay, and being a church that was willing to get pushed out of the regional organization of their demonination of churches in order to support a gay marriage... I can't imagine her using the awkward term of homosexual. But when she lived in a very closetted community, of a different era (she is far past retirement age), with little exposure - I could see how she might still use that word (and thus the exception you give in your post to people of a certain era).

That being said, I can see that if one has lived a pretty sheltered (think rural - very limited in terms of travel or exposure to diversity racial/ethnic/religious/or sexual orientation), that one might use the term out of pure unexposed ignorance, rather than out of bigotry. Someone else suggested context matters. I would have to agree. Though I would think it would certainly be a red-flag raiser (one can always lower the redflag, if need be when context indicates that should be the case.)

[LostinVA]

41. I do agree that context is important

I have to admit, though, that my eyebrows start going up the minutes I hear it -- especially if used as a noun -- until I can figure out the POV of the person.

[salin]

63. Red-flags, as long as they are just markers

per "listen carefully" before making judgement, are very helpful. There are many times in my early professional life that had I been wise and recognized red-flags per anti-women's liberation and professional development (this was shortly after ERA went down - long enough after the womens' lib movement to have warned young women to look for the markers - but soon enough after that many men were 'on alert' for "uppity women"). Got burned some, and had to have a rude awakening. I recognize the utility of having red-flag markers... as long as they are just "open the ears closely to determine whether or not judgement should be made" markers - as the person is likely to rather quickly show their context (bigotry or cloistered ignorance) soon enough.

Side note: Hope all is well with you!

[harmonicon]

66. Ok, I'll agree here - I think I may have missed part of the original point....

.... which I've argued against. "homosexual" is not a noun!! Of course it is a negative when used as a noun. No one is "a homosexual", though many people are homosexual.

[Jed Dilligan]

32. It's appropriate as an adjective to describe behavior

as in "homosexual contact." When animals have homosexual contact, it doesn't mean they are "gay." Similarly, a straight person can have a homosexual experience and still be straight.

It's only a red flag when a person talks about "a homosexual" or "homosexuals." This is a legacy of the days when it was treated as a pathology.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

56. Excellent distinction.

Since "gay" is supposed to be about identity, not merely about s-e-x, "homosexual" seems most precise in specifically sexual contexts... as an adjective, not a noun.

But what do I know? I always say "black people" or "black person" because I will never, never, never use black as a noun. Referring to "blacks" will always be a South African apartheid term to me.

But I have heard and read people more PC than I am use black as a noun, so my perception may be off.

In general, if someone's well-intentioned... not intending a word to be bad, I think everyone should be cut a lot of slack. I figure you're allowed to be one or two word changes behind, but not four or five behind. (It's the Mister Burns test. If Mister Burns would say it, it's probably no longer acceptable. I avoid "cadamite" and "sodomite." And though I sometimes slip and say oriental instead of Asian, or Indian rather than native-American, I would be alarmed to hear someone other than Mister Burns refer to a redskin or Chinaman!)

[Jed Dilligan]

69. Another great adjective is "homoerotic"

which can be delightfully applied to macho, aggressively "straight male" institutions like pro sports, action movies, the military, etc.

[AlCzervik]

37. it depends on who says it, but most times when i hear "homosexual" the word "Agenda"

is usually the next thing they say and yes right away i know who i'm dealing with.

[LostinVA]

50. Yup, or "rights" or "marriage"

[salin]

70. unless of course it is that righteous

parody which lays out the "Homosexual Agenda" - with a humorous walk through a day schedule that absolutely ridicules the idealized intent of those who seriously speak of "the Homosexual Agenda". :D
I think I first read that here at DU around the time of my arrival (early 2002).

[harmonicon]

40. huh?

Ok, I'm just a heterosexual guy here, but WTF?! Yes, I use the word homosexual to refer to homosexuals. Where the hell are we as a culture when we can't use words with real meaning? I'll also use "gay", but that's a slang term like "straight" and doesn't really mean anything - or, rather, it means many things (has different meanings) so doesn't accurately describe certain things. I can say "gay bar" to refer to a bar frequented by gay men, but that's different from a "lesbian bar" - wouldn't it be silly if I used the word 'gay' then for both, even though both cater to a homosexual crowd? If I want to talk about equal rights for homosexuals, that's how I'll put it. I don't think I'm some moron or insensitive. And yes, just like if I were on a sitcom, I'll say it: some of my best friends are gay (homosexual - don't want to leave the ladies out).

Now, for full disclosure, my girlfriend also says it creeps her out that I say "sexual intercourse" when referring to sexual intercourse, so maybe I'm a special overly-analytical case.

[LostinVA]

46. "Gay"isn't a slang term

[harmonicon]

72. I beg to differ!

but, oh well.... it is in my little computer dictionary as a proper word, so maybe you're right. I just think it's silly. It's a word that has many different meanings to many different people, not all positive and not all negative.

[2rth2pwr]

82. How about gaydar? nt

[LoZoccolo]

45. Red flags = prejudice. n/t

[robbedvoter]

68. Yeah, with the age qualifier, I'd say so - like "President Bush" is a red flag

as to the person's politics

[harmonicon]

77. hahahaha!! oh dear.... yes, when have I ever said that?!

[eileen_d]

81. No

Unless there's an obvious negative tone of voice attached, I don't see anything negative about the word itself. Maybe I'm behind the times - I do live in kind of an isolated area. :shrug:

[Beausoir]

84. Every time I hear it I think of Delta Burke's role in Designing Women. "Homo-sexshal".

"Homosexual" has been claimed by the freeper fundies as a label of derision.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

87. Just a note about Delta Burke though, has a gay sister, loves the gays! n.t

[Beausoir]

88. Yes, that's why I said her "role" on Designing Women.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

91. I know, as long as she came up I just wanted to "out" her as very gay-friendly

[rucky]

85. Yes. So, what's the next step?

You see a red flag, and then how do you handle it?

I think it's a sign that the person doesn't really spend much time about gay people, or reading the Advocate. It doesn't automatically mean they're homophobic, though.

[Horse with no Name]

93. Sometimes.

I know people that have lived in caves their entire lives but aren't bad people. They try really hard to be politically correct and sensitive, but it is difficult to do unless you are exposed to it. Coming from rural areas, that can sometimes be difficult.
I think saying homosexual CAN be a red flag...but it depends on what comes out of their mouth AFTER they say it that counts.